Gun Dog Forum

Winchey

MG, I have been thinking about indirect pressure in relation to pointing dogs. When a dog takes out a bird or goes with one I do whoa, nick whoa. Is that indirect pressure? And direct pressure would continuous stim until the dog stops? Other than this, that is if I am even correct in mynabove defini...

Winchey

That was pretty clear. I didn't have to reread any of it to figure out wjat the heck you were talking about.

As for indirect pressure, I am not quite out of the dark ages and hardly use it, other than when doing some basic retriever stuff.

Winchey

He is just talking in his usual riddle filled tone about how advanced retrieverites are with e-collars and indirect pressure I imagine.

Winchey

Ok. The click of a clicker should never be percieved by the dog as correction if used as intended.

As to the rest of the post +1.

Winchey

Ezzy did you even read the clicker thread?

Winchey

Scott, you definately need beer, and scotch. All the bird dog weirdos I know love scotch for some reason.

Winchey

I do the same, but I don't start breaking them until they are good at handling wild birds and such. And wouldn't get on a year old dog as hard as a 5 year old for ripping a bird. I like to think of it in hockey terms. You aren't going to bag skate your competitive peewee team, 12 and 13 year olds an...

Winchey

I think you defined pressure fine. I don't think anyone says pressure is a bad thing, just that too much before the dog can handle it is. We don't give elementary school kids an SAT and tell them their entire future is riding on it.

Winchey

Whether you can define the techniques in psychological terms I don't know, but judging from your reputation you can employ those techniques as well as anyone and that is what matters.

Winchey

I always seen the bumping as stopping the chasing. I see that as negative reinforcement, you are taking away the pressure when the dog commits the desired behaviour.

I have never been able to hear a brood of grouse get up at 200 yards or been able to see my dog do it, so I would do nothing.

Winchey

Actually it would be easy to put it on a hinge, but probably just as much work for someone who knows how to make bobs.

Winchey

Mine is secured, but I don't see why you couldn't set it up so it could be removed and replaced asily. I just have a small coop so I just leave the main door open when free flying and close it at night.

Winchey

I am not near the coop but imagine this is the entrance and the newspaper is hardware cloth or something better than newspaper. The pigeon can hop down into the coop but can not fly back out the same way.

Winchey

For the door I use a downward spout made of hardware cloth, the birds can jump down it, but cannot fly back up it because they are two big with wings extended. The problem with it is the squirrels can go in and out as they please when the trap door isn't closed and eat all their food. Better than tr...

Winchey

Nate I would add that the clicker is based on principles established by Pavlov. Just to make this more argumentative and or confusing I believe Pavlov is classical conditioning v. Skinner's operant conditioning (clicker). In example, Pavlov discovered a neutral signal ( before the behavior ) could ...

Winchey

What do you do when your supposedly broke dog takes out a grouse brood 200 yards away in the woods?

In your scenario I would either say "atta boy" "whoa" or nothing at all.

Winchey

Nate I would add that the clicker is based on principles established by Pavlov. Just to make this more argumentative and or confusing I believe Pavlov is classical conditioning v. Skinner's operant conditioning (clicker). In example, Pavlov discovered a neutral signal ( before the behavior ) could ...

Winchey

I had no problem understanding positive = add and negative = subtract. I have just never thought in the terms of an adversive positive reinforcer being used to reinforce a particular action as you have pointed out. I have only thought of a shock or whack on the head as positive punishment. Thanks fo...

Winchey

A positive reinforcer is anything you add that will increase a certain behaviour, what is a bad positive reinforcer?

Winchey

I have read Skinner and positive reinforcement always means something good. You can't add an aversive for doing something you want and expect the behaviour to increase. You are mixing things up. Negative reinforcement is not reinforcing a behaviour because you are choking the dog, the behaviour is r...

Winchey

Simpliciticly, giving a dog a treat is positive, taking the treat away is negative, but so is hitting a dog positive, when you stop hitting it it is negative. The difference is how the dog perceives it. You can build style in a dog with the first, but the later will result in apprehension. Nate You...

Winchey

I'm not advocating 100% positive to be clear. I find it is the easiest way to teach things, but not the easiest or fastest way to stop unwanted stuff.

Winchey

Who said anything about solely relying on it? Not to mention the dog is 13 weeks old, how much force do you really want to use lol.

Winchey

That your wife is pissed at you.

Winchey

You don't really use a clicker on the fly Doc. You use it during short training periods to teach something new or to tune up already known. I normally use the word "Yes!" as my marker, but when I am working on something new, run into a wall, or am trying to get something precise I will go get my cli...

Winchey

You're right Neil. Positive Reinforcement = adding something that will increase a behaviour ie. Giving a treat for sitting. Positive Punishment would be kickinging a dog for sitting, adding something that will stop or decrease a behaviour. Negative reinforcement would be strangling a dog until it st...

Winchey

I have seen enough dogs trained in tradional methods to know that a competent trainer can take almost nothing out of a dog using traditional methods. However, I prefer to teach things by rewarding when they do it right rather than punishing when they do it wrong or by removing pressure when they do ...

Winchey

Bo is pretty diverse.

Winchey

I think the poker straight tail for trials is blown out of proportian on here. I highly doubt the tail in that picture would hurt a dog in any trial.

Winchey

I don't know when it was popularized but positive reinforcement it is widely credited with Pavlov's experiments in the 1920's. All a click is, is a marker to tell the animal that it did the right thing and that a reward is coming because it isn't always possible to shove a hot dog in a dogs mouth th...

Winchey

The click of the clicker has no inherant value until it is associated with something good to come, a treat, a bird, a head pat, a fun bumper, a game if tug etc... If you will, it is the same as the noise of a gunshot meaning bird to a dog that is gunbroke properly. The treat or reward after a click ...

Winchey

If you use clicker training the dog is motivated to comply by it own natural instinct of self preservation . Dogs are motivated to please themselves and this is used to help form and reinforce behaviors you want. It is extremely effective and since there is no pressure in the dog there is no down s...

Winchey

I have heard some from people that have been down there and I trust, and I have heard stories of people doing it here long ago from people I know who told me they did it. No clue how prevelant it is.

Winchey

Some people keep them as pets or hunt them anyway, some rehome them. Not a lot of shooting in my area, not anymore anyways. But I hear lots of stories of things that go on down south.

Winchey

I introduce birds when I get them and start gun breaking as soon as they are fired up about birds. As soon as he is gunbroke I'd take him hunting. I don't see why anyone couldn't accomplish those two things with most any dog by November. Come would be a good thing for him to know, and maybe whoa, an...

Winchey

Hunting Dog USA, back in January. Unless you are the wrong person.

Winchey

Sorry, it was "keep your dog's at home or face the consequences" which I probably took the wrong way.

Although other than my posts being misinterpreted and rowdy's posts, I don't recall anyone else posting in such a way to sugest bird dogs are doomed.

Winchey

What thread are you reading?

Didn't I read you state dog's shouldn't be let off a check chord on facebook when a Lew got shot by a farmer?

Winchey

Wow, I agree with Ezzy.

Winchey

They run on instinct and WHAT THEY LEARN. Either from what you teach them or how you shape their behaviour, OR ON THEIR OWN. Just like everything else. Kids don't do what you tell them all the time either. They do what works, if they find out the path of least resistance is doing their homework, the...

Winchey

I have no idea what you are trying to argue. especially the not part of the family, part of the pack business, what the heck is the difference between a pack and a family. Other than lacking in language and the brain power to rationalize, analyze, connect the dots as well as we do, and that they get...

Winchey

Lots of people go to prison and then do things on purpose to get right back in.

Winchey

I would keep running him in derby because it is fun and I have time to fix things and am in no rush. If he can't handle being broke he shouldn't be broke now anyways.

Jmo.

Winchey

Really? Are a lot of parents dropping their kids off at homeless shelters?

Winchey

I'm not much of a killer. I don't kill my training birds. I would be just as happy with a camera and working the dog for someone in the duck blind. I like working wild birds with a blank gun as much as hunting. I also like eating meat. I think of wild game as the ultimate free range. Not much for ki...

Winchey

You sound like you need a hug.

Winchey

I'll echo the rest, just treat them as you did your other dogs. They may need a bit more excersise and may run a bit bigger than your other dogs but other than that they aren't much different.

Winchey

I think it really depends on the pup, and what you want out of it.

Winchey

"I train several different places to let them know no matter what I'm in charge" (SJ) That is half the definition. You do this, or proof it, or whatever you want to call it because dog's are place oriented. They don't put 2 and 2 together. Just because they were taught to act a certain way in locati...

Winchey

I miss Dave. I wish he would write a book, fiction is good too! This forum lost a lot of its entertainment value after him and Birddogz left.

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