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2004 #1 GSP ?

Postby Wagonmaster » Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:08 am

The possibility was raised somewhere along the way on this thread of identifying the last 5 years Winners of the NGSPA and the GSPCA Nationals, for breeding analysis purposes. I think we did do that with the GSPCA Winners in the thread. The Winners of the NGSPA are now up at http://ngspa.homestead.com/Results.html#anchor_35, thanks to Phil Salvati and Dave Quindt.
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Postby DGFavor » Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:49 am

[quote="Dave Quindt"]
"The other dog I'd add is Dunfur's Latest Edition, the only GSP alive to have won a FDSB pointer/setter championship. Hunter is quite possibly the bigest going dog we've got in the breed right now."


I came across this website and somehow dug up this old topic and quote - hope I posted it right...crazy world wide web. I just can't let this go so will bring an old post back to life:

Geez, Dave, I'm hurt. I know of another living GSP that has won an Open "FDSB pointer/setter" championship and made some pretty good showings in a bunch more. By some accounts, he should have won one or two more open championships but judges just didn't see it his way...that's trialing. They usually know he shows up and gives 'em something to worry about. I'm not into AKC 1/2 hour trials so don't get much exposure to the typical GSP crowd.

I ran in the Reg. 10 Am. AA you mentioned with Craig and Hunter when they won. Queez also ran Benny and I ran Stitch and my now deceased Rocky dog. Those boys knew we were there for sure with Benny, Hunter, and Stitch being only amongst a handful of dogs with clean finds and races. This was big country, all age stuff folks.

I'm disappointed in reading all these posts and replies by alot of good GSP folks whose visions of greatness seem to stop at 1 hour NGSPA stakes. Folks, we've got great dogs that can compete in the open American Field trials, IMO the best test of bird dogs going. My dogs are okay, not outstanding as far as field trial dogs go, but we've managed to win open championships and runner up championships just by getting out there and doing it. Managed to win an open "pointer/setter" regional dog of the year points race too - and don't doubt the "pointer/setter" competition out here. I was braced once with Spectre Sam (like a 7x AA champion or something ridiculous) right after he got back from running the Nat'ls at Ames Plantation! Most thought Stitch put it on him! I'd love to see the really good GSP's come to the trials I go to and really show what these dogs are capable of. My dogs are almost always the only GSP's in the field but I guarantee you those guys know we're there and know we can get it done.

So anyway. You guys have mentioned alot of great dogs. Not sure how many you've actually seen in person or ran with but I've been fortunate enough to hunt with, train with, and compete against a few of those you talk about. They're awesome...but they're just dogs. They're all good and yours is too.

Finally, quit calling them "pointer/setter" trials...they're open to all of us. :D

Sorry to bring up old stuff!

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Postby DGFavor » Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:42 am

Read my above post and I sound like a darn field trialer. Should clarify that for me the pinnacle is a good hunting dog that can find birds day after day, staying sound day after day. If hunting season went year round I'd never go to a darned trial.

Dave - if you get a chance, do a COI on my old Rocky dog - he had about as much Rusty as you'll ever see nowadays I think.


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Postby Wagonmaster » Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:45 am

Finally, quit calling them "pointer/setter" trials...they're open to all of us.


I have run pointers in pointer/setter trials. I am going to keep calling them that for awhile, thanks, but no offense meant by it. As you know, every GSP AKC weekend in the country is open to everbody. Have seen one pointer run in one in the past four years, and a handful of ES. Hmmmm. Do you think they are afraid to run with us?

But you should know both Dave and I think the GSP "world," meaning the NGSPA circuit and the Nationals, is a little smaller than it should be. Very few wild bird trials for example (two). I say that not to be mean or critical about it. That is where my dog runs. It could be healthier. The time may come when we all move in larger numbers over to pointer/setter trials. It is not here yet. Right now we just have some pioneers, like yourself, who are doing it.

There always have been a few, as you probably know. Ed Husser did that with Rusty. I ran in a couple with a GWP of all things. We have a guy on this board in WI who has done it once or twice.

I would be interested in the ped. on your dog. I have a male and female, both heavy Rusty. I know, you have heard that before. So have I. They really are, as heavy at least, as you can find in a trial dog these day, especially an aa. I will try to figure out a way to PM you mine just for fun. The male finished FC at 2, and just won RU AA at the Reg. 7 at 3.
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Postby Wagonmaster » Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:15 pm

14.722 on 5 generations. i am missing three pairs of dogs in the 5th gen, which would not make much difference.
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Postby Dave Quindt » Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:08 am

Doug wrote:
Geez, Dave, I'm hurt. I know of another living GSP that has won an Open "FDSB pointer/setter" championship and made some pretty good showings in a bunch more.


Doug, read the thread up until that point; we were talking AA dogs.

Over the last decade there have been a number of GSPs participate and place in AFTCA championship events, including your dogs. There have been Brits and Red Setters that have placed as well. All of which have been in Shooting Dog events. I believe that Hunter is the only non-pointer/E. Setter to have won an AA Championship in recent years, maybe decades.

While the Shooting Dog wins are very significant, I think we'd all agree that the traditional AF crowd won’t take GSPs seriously until we have GSPs winning AA Open Championships, and particularly ones on the major circuit.


I'm disappointed in reading all these posts and replies by alot of good GSP folks whose visions of greatness seem to stop at 1 hour NGSPA stakes. Folks, we've got great dogs that can compete in the open American Field trials, IMO the best test of bird dogs going. My dogs are okay, not outstanding as far as field trial dogs go, but we've managed to win open championships and runner up championships just by getting out there and doing it. Managed to win an open "pointer/setter" regional dog of the year points race too - and don't doubt the "pointer/setter" competition out here.


The competition in your part of the country is indeed tough, but there are a lot of factors at play in the midwest and the south. Based on the conversations I've had with a number of very experienced pointer trialers, the best chances the GSP do have is in the west, where tradition isn't as much of a factor. Heck, the Red Setter folks talk about how they feel that they enter a trial with one strike against them sometimes in the South.

I guess my question to you is how will running GSPs in open trials make the GSP a better breed and provide the prospective breeder more info about selecting excellent breeding stock? I'm going to be taking a pup here this year, so over the last few years I've been going to the big trials like Eureka to evaluate dogs. If I'm interested in a certain male, I might ride his brace and possibly the braces of some littermates and if I'm lucky, a few futurity dogs sired by this male.

Your Stitch is a great example; I've heard many good things about him. Maybe he's the right sire for my pup, but since I'll only take a pup out of parents I've watched being trialed, and you don't come to any of the GSP National Championships, what impact will he have on the breed? He may be a better dog than what wins at Eureka or Booneville, but since very few people know about him his impact on the breed is very limited.

Doug, so few people really know about what you are accomplishing. Even fewer know of Hunter's win; and I'm talking about hard-core GSP trialers. I'm enough of a dog geek to actually read most of the AFTCA championship trial reports in the Field; most GSP folks look at me like I'm crazy and many don't even bother with the Field at all. Most page through until they see a photo of a GSP and then they'll read it. We also share a friend in the Hoosier state who through a series of events ended up spending a lot of time in your neck of the woods running GSPs, which has helped me keep up with who is doing what out there.

I hope to have a GSP that I can compete with in championship AFTCA events at some point; my current GSP is more of a true horseback gundog. I'll encourage anyone to participate in AFTCA events, but not at the expense of participating in our breed championships.

The pointer in the US has been built around the idea that one great one in a litter of ok dogs is acceptable; the GSP breed has (until fairly recently) been more about producing excellent litters of hunting dogs with the hopes of getting trial-quality dogs as well.

A few years ago I was lucky to handle a few dogs in a weekend where half-sibling GSPs participated in a NAVHDA UT test, a NSTRA championship, an AKC Master Hunter test, a AKC walking trial and an AKC horseback trial. That to me shows why the GSP is such a great breed for the hunter who also is interested in performance dogs; it is also something you will never see with the pointers or setters.

IMO winning AFTCA events is a great personal accomplishment but I don't yet see how it will lead to us producing better GSPs.

JMO,
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Postby Yawallac » Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:37 am

it is also something you will never see with the pointers or setters.

I have successfully tested my Pointers in NAVHDA, run in NSTRA and AKC. What are you saying Pointers can't do??
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Postby DGFavor » Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:16 am

"Doug, read the thread up until that point; we were talking AA dogs. "


Oops! My bad then!! Thought you were just referencing AF trials in general. My attempted point was basically, that I've seen many of the dogs you guys were mentioning. They kick butt on my dogs and I'd like to see them out there representing the GSP in what I think is the best man made test we have going - 1 hour open stake AF championships. Stitch qualified to go run in the Nat'l Open SD Championship at Hoffman the last two years. I really would have liked to go run but I just don't think he's the dog I'd want out there sort of representing the GSP at such a big time event. (not to mention we've never run in terrain like that in our life - what's a bobwhite quail??) He's kind of a little blue collar, lunch pail packing bird dog and I think for an event like that, the GSP breed needs one of it's big time, flashy, classy dogs running.

Man, I'd love to go the Nat'ls some year but until they move it out of October when sharptail hunting season is open out here, I'm not gonna be there. I just can't justify traveling that far to run one dog for likely only a half hour while the rest of my dogs (and me!) miss out on some great hunting. I wish they'd move it to the springtime. Heck, I'd have to qualify anyway and we don't do very good in 1/2 hour stakes (same problem as Spekk I think). Took us 15" of pretty hard riding today to find Stitch on a covey of chukar that no way would we have found him in a trial in time. Probably not at all without a Tracker. (that's pretty nutty to have bird dogs that you have to have radio telemetry just to keep up with 'em - what are we thinking???) I almost left my Bugsy pup out in the wilds today because he just flat out ran us off the front. Not sure I have much use for a dog like that but he came back an hour and a half later so I guess we'll try it again another day - get him good and screwed up for Dan to try and go run in the Futurity this year.

Good posts and good info. guys. Thanks for the COI John - interesting stuff!

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Postby Dave Quindt » Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:40 pm

Doug, I feel your pain.

Wisconsin grouse season really runs from 9/15 to 12/31, but in reality it's normally too warm until very late September. Deer gun season runs roughly 11/20 to 12/1, and no one is running a dog during deer season. December can mean cold and snow, so pretty much the bulk of grouse season is 10/1 to 11/15; the same time our dogs from the midwest are getting ready and running at Eureka.

Somehow though if you were to come, and were to get a piece of the pie I'd think you'd be a happy camper. If Short can make it, and he lives just shy of the artic circle :)

With 2 National Championships already in the spring, plus the AKC Gundog CH being always a spring event I don't see the GSPCA moving their National Championship anytime soon.

As to the dogs.......

I watched Rocky the year he took RU in the futurity and just missed his run in '04. Watched Ben win in '04 and Annie take 4th in '03; hers was the most broke performance I've ever seen of a dog in any venue and I've told Steve that. I watched Hank run against the Gulledge dog that won the Open gun this year, plus Cutter and Sonny go 3 and 4 in the AA. Simon had one of the nicest runs in the '04 Open I've seen but went birdless; a couple of birds and he'd have been in the money.

I watched Hunter a couple of times and was sorry to not see him come to Eureka this year. I'd like to see some pups out of him.

I've watched a half-dozen Buddy dogs around here grow up and am going to spend two weeks in camp with 3 or 4 pups out of Pepper, Ben's sister that Jerry owns.

As to open AF trials, I don't think GSP folks are intimidated as much as they are just disinterested. I just don't see GSP folks as interested in taking on the pointer establishment; right or wrong most folks are just don't see the open AF stuff as that much better; just different.

The other problem is that is 20% of the championship-quality GSPs started running open AF trials, NGSPA trials would probably come to a screeching halt; there just isn't enough dogs on the circuit in many parts of the country.

What we need is someone with the desire to see GSPs running in open AF championships to come forward and put up a cash purse to the owner and handler of the GSP that wins the first major circuit AA and SD championship. That might spur some entries.

btw, Don Lee won the AFTCA Region 12 Amateur Walking Championship with his GSP; article in the 1/21 issue of the Field.


JMO,
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Postby DGFavor » Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:02 am

Man, those are all good dogs. I'm thinking pretty seriously of breeding my Trixie to Simon down the road but jury is still out on her. She's got great "bird dog" and physical ablilities but doesn't have that AA mentality and independance (thank goodness for me and my horses!)...more of a "Sunday afternoon hunting with my dad and brother" mentality. She's a pup by Rocky out of a complete outcross bitch. Simon (and Hunter) is half brother to Rocky - too close???

So, it sounds like you've got all the 2004 sires figured out...who is the big dog now? Any preeminent line going nowadays? Seems like we're getting so remote from all the greats you guys mention, how much influence are they still exerting on the breed? I've been probing around looking for some old Beier's line dogs...I really like the bird dog in 'em and they were real popular in this area back in the day.

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Postby Wagonmaster » Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:24 am

As to open AF trials, I don't think GSP folks are intimidated as much as they are just disinterested. I just don't see GSP folks as interested in taking on the pointer establishment; right or wrong most folks are just don't see the open AF stuff as that much better; just different.


that speaks for me. it is not that i find those trials uninteresting, just the opposite. i always found them alot of fun. but you are not getting anything done by running a GSP over there. no one will pay attention or care what you are doing.

as for all the yada yada about why don't you have the guts to go run AF, that is a yawner to me. have been there, seen those trials. an hour is an hour is an hour.

i would like to see the NGSPA trials improved to the quality level of the AF wild bird trials. that would be a good goal. dogs would have to go find birds.

on the subject of who the "big dog" is now, don't think anyone really has a handle on it. truth is, we have multiple "big dogs," which is good for the sport. Sonny was far and away the dominant stud dog in the NGSPA futurity nominations, so we will see what comes out of that this year and next i would guess.
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Postby snips » Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:14 am

Doug, we are still breeding off of 2 dogs from the HOF cross between Beires Evolution x Aces Prima Banane. Rick got a bitch from Dewey Hicks before he died, Evolutions Bad Banane that we had a great litter with. We are breeding 2 litters this spring from dogs out of that cross. They are incredible birddogs with loads of run and style. Don Lee was a great friend of ours when he ran NSTRA, thats great about his win. He told me he had a dog he was real excited about.
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Postby DGFavor » Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:09 pm

snips wrote:Doug, we are still breeding off of 2 dogs from the HOF cross between Beires Evolution x Aces Prima Banane. Rick got a bitch from Dewey Hicks before he died, Evolutions Bad Banane that we had a great litter with. We are breeding 2 litters this spring from dogs out of that cross. They are incredible birddogs with loads of run and style. Don Lee was a great friend of ours when he ran NSTRA, thats great about his win. He told me he had a dog he was real excited about.


Brenda, Anybody whose first words about their dogs is "incredible birddogs" is speaking my language!! Add a little style and athleticism to that and a person can go play any game they want during the off season. My Stitch dog goes back to the BE x Banane cross on both sire and dam. Best all day, everyday birddog I've ever had. That's how I found this site in the first place was doing a search for some Beier's line dogs.

I've looked at Don Lee's site and know he's got a couple dogs with the exact lines I'm interested in. His upcoming Sport/Powder cross is pretty much what I've been wanting to get done with my dog. Maybe he knows of a Powder littermate looking for a boyfriend?? :wink:
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Postby snips » Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:31 pm

Rick also owned a dog Jackson Von Prima Banane (NSTRA Ch) that is behind my Logan (dog in my picture). He was an all day birddog that liked to stay out of sight, a little tough to run in NSTRA. But he threw alot of stuff in breedings, add my ol Rip dog and it levels out just right. Unfortunatly those dogs are all gone, Katherine Black in Ca had another one, FC Primo Creation.
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Rawhides Clown

Postby byrdmann » Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:15 pm

I don't know if anyone mentioned this in previous posts--for this was too in depth for one sitting......

But what people fail to realize about Clown is that not only was he a National All-age champion for the years of '92, '93, and '94--but he also won the 1989 National Futurity, so realistically Clown was a 4x National Champion.
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Re: Rawhides Clown

Postby wannabe » Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:56 pm

byrdmann wrote:what people fail to realize about Clown is that not only was he a National All-age champion for the years of '92, '93, and '94--but he also won the 1989 National Futurity, so realistically Clown was a 4x National Champion.

Did anyone ever see Clown find and point a bird on course, or was his birdwork limited to the call-backs?
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Re: 2004 #1 GSP ?

Postby Troy08er » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:07 pm

Great read.Thanks guys
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Re: 2004 #1 GSP ?

Postby fuzznut » Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:22 am

Glad someone found this topic and brought it back to the front. Great reading, and brought back lots of memories of dogs I've seen over the years. Not a GSP person, but hung with them, trained with them, and watched a whole lot of them.

Am wondering if any of your thoughts have changed since 2006, have any of those young dogs you talked about proven themselves to be one of those top dogs today?

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Re: 2004 #1 GSP ?

Postby BigShooter » Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:14 am

fuzznut wrote:Glad someone found this topic and brought it back to the front. Great reading, and brought back lots of memories of dogs I've seen over the years. Not a GSP person, but hung with them, trained with them, and watched a whole lot of them.

Am wondering if any of your thoughts have changed since 2006, have any of those young dogs you talked about proven themselves to be one of those top dogs today? Fuzz


You're welcome.

"New thread started."
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Re: 2004 #1 GSP ?

Postby BigShooter » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:05 am

New thread started.
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Re: 2004 #1 GSP ?

Postby Hotpepper » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:00 am

That is a very good thread, need to make a new one so everyone does not have to work through the old stuff.

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Re: 2004 #1 GSP ?

Postby BigShooter » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:41 am

Done. See "2010 Top Field Trial GSPs" http://gundogforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=23914
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