Hunting Dog Training & More    

Popular Searches: Garmin Astro | Dog Collars | Tri-Tronics | SPORTdog

2004 #1 GSP ?

Postby Dave Quindt » Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:55 am

John,

Slick didn't win the AA in '02, Mert did. And yes, Jane was the only placement in '01.

Dave
Dave Quindt
Rank: 5X Champion
 
Posts: 876
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Postby Wagonmaster » Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:55 am

Dave-

Some points.

You're quoting a Miller pedigree? Once they get enough generations of DNA on those dogs to prove what they claim, I'll start to pay attention. The pointer boys have never been too focused on keeping the paper and the dogs in order.


Unfortunately, the same thing has and can be said about GSP breeding records. Lots of talk about who put pointer in what dogs when. At least with pointers, the only motivation was to redshirt a dog into a later litter, so it could be run as a three or four year old futurity. Or maybe to cheat a customer into thinking he was buying a high ped breeding, when was just two dogs put together. But with GSP's there were these motivations, plus the additional motivation of making a more competitive dog by putting pointer in. Is a matter I really don't care about, because I like the current state of the breed, however it was put together. And don't want to open another can of worms (creek, creek, creek). But GSP's have only required DNA as a condition of competing in the Nationals last two years - maybe it was just last year - as I recall, not any longer than pointers, so a little early to be saying we are holier than them.

Was alot less motivation to corrupt Miller breedings 20 years ago, when the line was young, than when the On-Line incident happened, with lots of pressure to show the line continues to perform, and make back the investment in it. Dumb anyway, when you read the accounts of it. All that can be said is that one was stupid enough to get caught, not that others were not doing, esp. before DNA.

Fact is, one of the holes in ped. and computer anal. is that you have to sort of blythely assume all the breedings were as shown on the ped., and that holds regardless of breed. You can calculate a COI to 1/1,000ths of a percent, which is 1/100,000ths of the whole pie, but if one ped is wrong the computer does not know or care. Which calls to mind your comments about learning from history, and about spending alot of time looking at peds. and data and knowing less than when you started. At least until DNA has been around for awhile, cannot use the results as anything more than a rough guide, not something accurate to a decimal or even to a percent in some cases.

Your question about what top producing AA was tight linebred, I think was prompted by me, or maybe someone else's comments about linebreeding. Maybe need to articulate what I mean a little more clearly. I think the point of your challenge to everyone to find that dog, is that there is not one out there. I would agree that the probability is that there is not. But my view of linebreeding is not that the tight linebreed will produce that champion producer. Don't think that. My thoughts are more along the lines of those expressed by you and others about crossing two tight lines or outcrossing a tight line to a wild hare.

OK, this is all pure sophistry, and do not have a background in genetics, but a little experience with dogs, so here goes.

I think you need to do that tight linebreed (half-brother/half-sister, uncle/niece, etc.) to establish a base line. In fact, I think that a couple three generations of line breeding might be necessary. Say tight line breed (COI of say15 or up), then loose line breed in same general type of dog (COI of say 6 to eight) or line cross of two established lines, then tight line again. Then you have a line you can go somewhere with. Some risk with this that the third gen. litter would produce some defects, and you would have to be prepared to cull, an idea I do not like (see below), but could do once. The likelihood of a top winner/producer coming from the tight linebreeds would not be high. They would come from the line crosses, or the outcross to an outstanding individual.

You could go the route of just crossing outstanding individuals, but I personally cannot. Reason is that it from my observation it involves too much culling, as you pointed out. Have 7, kill 6 keep one. That is one way to go, and frankly is the route the German breeders took to establish many of the versatiles, including the GSP. Talked to one many years ago who was a founder of one of the breeds, who mentioned regretting putting down entire litters at 12 weeks or so, because they would shy from water when brought down to the lakeshore - discovered years later that it was only windy days and the sound that caused this. Point is, it is how they worked. If pup did not have coat, or retrieve, or whatever, it went down. Some people can do that, I am not good at it. Same thing was true of pointers, 100 would go on the string to the prairie, a bunch would encounter "speargrass" and not make the return trip.

Prefer to work with a line where 6 of 7 will be SD/GD, or classy hunting dogs for good families, and maybe 1 will be the AA. Kind of think the hard work has been done in the past, leave it there. That is why I favor the linebreed, then outcross route, as much as any belief that it is genetically or result-wise any better than outcross, outcross, outcross. Linebreed may actually be slower, I think.

I think you said this in different words, maybe with a different slant on them taily-dogs, and maybe without the detail about culling.

Also, saw the comment about cattle breeding and have heard it before. I think cattle breeding, and perhaps show dog breeding, is different from trial dog breeding. The reason is that trial dogs need to be bred for athleticism. Cattle are bred for what I would call "sedentary" characteristics, without meaning to be disparaging. That is, they are bred for physical characteristics not connected to athleticism or survival. In cattle, number one is how fast will they put on weight, how prolifically they will breed. Sometimes, how well will they withstand the climate. Whether they can run, etc. etc. is not relevant. You have fewer, and a more manageable number of characteristics to breed for, and more to ignore. Thus, linebreed, linebreed, linebreed would be more likely to work.

Athleticism relies on a much greater number of characteristics, and also relies on the system that wires them together. So many, you cannot breed, for example, just for a strong heart/lung, and forget speed, gait, nose, balance, reaction time, etc., etc. Also, athletic characteristics are more like the survival characteristics that mother nature creates, which are very complicated.

So my view is that you try to create that line, but the linebreeds will be a kind of baseline. In other words, the producers of SD/GD's, etc., and of a solid set of classy characteristics and sound athleticism. Possible, but not likely to get the "survivor" out of that. Probably need to throw in some energy, like a cross to another line, or a wild hare top of the food chain type, to get that ultimate competitor out of the line.

Breeding is games of chance anyway. Which genes will pop out and be expressed in a given dog, so surely the top dog can pop out anywhere, but probability I think is greater in this scenario.

Probably full of it. Just my own personal theory, and maybe that of some others.

But to go back to the start, it is a little difficult to look at history to determine if a particular way of breeding is better than another way, unless you were around, knew the dogs, and have a degree of confidence about which breedings were actually as shown on the ped. and which were not. Can't hold a candle to you there.
Last edited by Wagonmaster on Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
Wagonmaster
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3372
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:22 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby Wagonmaster » Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:59 am

Dave-

You are right. Made a mistake in click-highlight-copy and got Mert's sire. 2002 winner was FC Heide Ho's MRT, so I fixed the post before someone goes off in the wrong direction with it.
User avatar
Wagonmaster
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3372
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:22 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby ezzy333 » Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:02 pm

I think it is necessary to stop and think about what inbreeding, linebreeding, or outcrossing really does.

Inbreeding and line breeding strengthen the genes that you have but add no new ones. This can not produce something you don't already have. Thus an AA dog is unlikely unless the parents have the same capabilities. However it should produce more uniformity and strengthen the genes that are present so the pups may be more preponet in passing their genes to their pups.

Outcrossing will possibly produce some pups better than the parents and some worse. There will be a wide variation with little uniformity. Both the good and bad genes may be weak and not able to over power the genes from the other dog in a breeding.

Remember the line breeding strengthens the genes and adds uniformity that will be inhreited and passed on. Outcrossing produces a possible better and/or worse pup than the parents. With this in mind there is only one way to breed dogs or any other livestock if you are interested in improvement and uniformity in our animals. You line breed closely for two or three generations then you bring in the outcross( preferably from another linebred line) that compliments or adds to what you already have then you linebreed again for two or three generations to solidify the new genes brought into the line you have been breeding.

Line breeding doesn't improve but strengthens while outcrossing may improve but also may weaken. Using a controled outcross within your linebreeding is the only way you can know what you are producing and still improving it slowly and selectively.

Ezzy
User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 16600
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Postby Wagonmaster » Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:10 pm

Ezzy-

Thanks. You said it way better than I did.
User avatar
Wagonmaster
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3372
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:22 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby RCB » Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:50 pm

Wagonmaster:

The only other info I found was for 1999:

1 BMK's Wild Child
2 Von der feld go with gusto
4 Sin City Slick Spot

When you look at the most of the placements from 1999 through 2004 outcross comes to mind. I did not notice any of the dogs as being tightly bred and maybe a couple that had a duplicate grandparent.

One other thing that jumps out is that out of the 17 dogs listed 8 are either out of Heides Might City Slick, a son of slick, out of slicks brother, a son of slicks brother, or a grand kid of slick. And slick was a definate outcross.

So based on this very limited review it seems that the most successful dogs are outcrosses and the majority of these dogs parents look to be outcrosses. So maybe line breeding is not all that it is cracked up to be.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge and experience in analyzing pedigrees can give a more informed opinion.
RCB
 
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Postby Fieldmaster » Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:10 pm

What do you guys think of FC/AFC Dunfur's PFK Blown Income. Sure looks like good looking dog. Anybody seen him run and seen him in person. What's conformation like?

Robert
User avatar
Fieldmaster
Rank: 2X Champion
 
Posts: 423
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:42 pm
Location: Hagerstown,MD

Postby larue » Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:51 pm

I would give dan a call,if you wanted more information on him.
I see that FC/AFC Dunfur's Dumazuri Rapscallion is out of him.
I have been VERY happy with my dunfur's joe obvious pup eva,
along with great style,a big shooting dog run,she is a very
trainable dog.I fully expect her to be a very competitive dog in the future.I would recommend dan's dogs to anyone who wanted a powerfull natural gsp with a good attitude.
larue
Rank: 5X Champion
 
Posts: 729
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:44 am
Location: southern wi

Postby Dave Quindt » Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:26 pm

Larue wrote

dave, I agree with you on buddy/morticia produceing great dogs such as ben,but what about rexx/morticia?
hunter the dog you spoke of is an example.How does the fact that
morticia bred to rexx also produced some outstanding dogs
affect the mix.It is interesting to wonder if morticia herself
was the biggest factor in produceing these dogs.


Dennis, of course the Rexx/Morticia dogs deserve attention as well. It gets a little bit more complicated because there are only two of those dogs running, and you’ve got to compare that litter to others that Rexx has thrown. Rexx’s most dominant offspring is clearly Stevi; she’s the only one I can think of that’s IMO Hall of Fame caliber as of today.

While I understand what you are saying about Morticia, its hard for me to completely agree with it. Buddy produced quality dogs when bred to her and both of her sisters. More of the Morticia pups have ended up in trial homes which skews things a bit. IMO, what we have are two great studs (Buddy and Rexx) being bred to great girls. Both sides IMO are equal. The connection between the boys and the girls is Hazel.

As to CJ, most of his placements were horseback. He had 5 major horseback gundog wins, plus his open puppy and open derby points were horseback. 100% of his placements were amateur-handled, along with the MH, UTI and VC titles. He wasn’t run in the hour stuff much; Doc didn’t have a horse and had an active practice to manage. Next time you see Rich Barber, ask him about CJ. He scouted him a bunch.

CJ has already produced an all age championship winner (the region 4 winner this year) and a bunch of FC and MH dogs. CJ is both the GSPCA Hunt Test and Field Trial sire of the year for 2004 (FT side split with Shameless). For a dog who's not being promoted at all, he's starting to leave his mark.

JMO,
Dave
Dave Quindt
Rank: 5X Champion
 
Posts: 876
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Postby Dave Quindt » Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:24 pm

Wagonmaster wrote

Some points.

Quote:
You're quoting a Miller pedigree? Once they get enough generations of DNA on those dogs to prove what they claim, I'll start to pay attention. The pointer boys have never been too focused on keeping the paper and the dogs in order.


Unfortunately, the same thing has and can be said about GSP breeding records. Lots of talk about who put pointer in what dogs when. At least with pointers, the only motivation was to redshirt a dog into a later litter, so it could be run as a three or four year old futurity. Or maybe to cheat a customer into thinking he was buying a high ped breeding, when was just two dogs put together. But with GSP's there were these motivations, plus the additional motivation of making a more competitive dog by putting pointer in. Is a matter I really don't care about, because I like the current state of the breed, however it was put together. And don't want to open another can of worms (creek, creek, creek). But GSP's have only required DNA as a condition of competing in the Nationals last two years - maybe it was just last year - as I recall, not any longer than pointers, so a little early to be saying we are holier than them.


John, the difference between us and the pointers are dealing with facts and we are dealing with rumors. DNA has been around for a while, and the AKC has thrown out its share of dogs, but we still don't have caught someone crossing pointers and GSPs. The use of DNA at the nationals didn’t discourage anyone from participating. What does that tell you?

The more I look at many of the foundation dogs, the less I believe that cross-breeding was rampant. Did it occur? Yes. But, I’m not sure it occurred as often as some of us think. I think the impact was much less then we think; you can breed all-age, pretty much all white pure GSPs without having to cross with pointers, if you know what you are doing.

The problem we have is that the rumors of old have become the “truth” today. Like you know, in the 70s every GSP that was winning was accused of either being a cross or o bob-tailed pointer. It was a way to trash your competition. The rumors and trash talk has been passed down to the trialers today and now its become accepted as gospel.

I’ve got some views on the linebreeding/outcrossing thing, but I’ll hold off on those for a while.

FWIW,
Dave
Dave Quindt
Rank: 5X Champion
 
Posts: 876
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Postby Dave Quindt » Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:44 pm

What do you guys think of FC/AFC Dunfur's PFK Blown Income. Sure looks like good looking dog. Anybody seen him run and seen him in person. What's conformation like?


Robert, I've seen Peeler a couple of times at Eureka. Nice horseback gundog; not going to blow the doors off the joint, but he's a pure birddog. Exceptional nose, which is a common Buddy trait. Great style, moves really nice, very stable on his game from what I've seen and heard.

Not sure what kind of conformation you are looking for. He moves the way I'd want a field dog to move, but that's different then what the show folks are looking for. I've not looked at his eyes or teeth.

He's a very nice dog! In terms of breeding, I guess it would depend on who the female is and what you are looking to get out of it.

Shoot me an email when you get a minute.

Dave
Dave Quindt
Rank: 5X Champion
 
Posts: 876
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Postby markj » Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:48 am

The problem we have is that the rumors of old have become the “truth” today. Like you know, in the 70s every GSP that was winning was accused of either being a cross or o bob-tailed pointer.


Yes this has been around as long as there have been trials. That is why I was only buying German inports or pups from german imports. But I found I was wrong and the American GSPs will do everything I ask of them. Spent a whole lot of money that Ididnt really have to cause I was beliving a rumor with no proof.

Maxwell had a line on this in the GSP book and it was written a long time ago.
User avatar
markj
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 2490
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:36 pm
Location: Crescent Iowa

Postby Wagonmaster » Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:31 am

The more I look at many of the foundation dogs, the less I believe that cross-breeding was rampant. Did it occur? Yes. But, I’m not sure it occurred as often as some of us think. I think the impact was much less then we think; you can breed all-age, pretty much all white pure GSPs without having to cross with pointers, if you know what you are doing.


would agree. with the advent of the Internet, it is possible to get access to some of these old photos, with some fishing around. don't have em on this machine, but at home have photos of the Moesgaards IB -> Fieldacres IB->Fieldacres Ib's Dek->Brown L->JG's Ludwig von Duesenberg breeding that resulted in Rusty. They were all "German" looking dogs, to me, especially Ludwig. There is a progression of white coat selection. Which I mention because of some past talk about Rusty. Think it is pretty much agreed now that he was "clean." But the fact that Ed Husser ran pointers led some to "suspect."

Dave, what do you think of the linebreed/outcross idea I brought up?
User avatar
Wagonmaster
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3372
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:22 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby Dirtysteve » Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:56 am

Wagonmaster
Is there anyway you could post these pictures? I would be very interested in seeing some of the old great ones.
User avatar
Dirtysteve
Rank: 3X Champion
 
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:06 pm
Location: Utah

Postby Wagonmaster » Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:16 am

i surely can, but will be tonight at the earliest. and then have to pry the son's fingers away from the home keyboard.

here is brown L, some of the Ammertals dogs and esser dogs, among others.

http://www.almostheavengsps.netkennel.c ... %20History

PS Also some coat color surprises in the reverse direction, i.e. Boss Man, which looks like a "Moesgaard" type, spotted coat and some white in the face - producing Ranger, solid liver dog

See also the coat and conformation of Tell, an import.
User avatar
Wagonmaster
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3372
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:22 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby Wagonmaster » Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:48 pm

OK Here are some oldies but goodies. All I could find on my home computer. I see I am missing JG's Ludwig von Duesenberg in the Rusty line, but have seen his pic somewhere. Its in B & W, but if recall correctly he was a roan colored dog.

Image Dixieland's Rusty

Image Moesgaard's IB

Image Fieldacres IB

Image Leighton's Ace Mona (dam of Rusty)

Image Fieldacres Ib's Dek

There are a couple of others in the Album under Gun Dogs.

Thought I had Brown L, but it was Brown L's Jet. Maybe can find later.
User avatar
Wagonmaster
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3372
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:22 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby Dirtysteve » Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:41 am

Thanks
These are intersting colors and it just firms my belief about not believing the pointer theory.
Now I'm not saying it didn't happen but I don't believe it happened like everybody has claimed.
User avatar
Dirtysteve
Rank: 3X Champion
 
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:06 pm
Location: Utah

Postby Wagonmaster » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:39 am

Sure looks like that to me too, was not involved in it which is why I looked up the pics. The most "pointery" looking dog is Ib's Dek, but he does not have a pointer tail, and if you look at the progression through his sires, you can see you pups were being selected for the most white coat. Need to get Brown L and Duesenberg up sometime, because you can see a reversion to brown/roan, probably by selection of pups again, and then selection of white coat to Rusty. Interesting thing is the white spotted coat of the import, Moesgaard's IB.

Interesting to me personally is looking at the avatar dog (my dog) and comparing coat and confirmation to Rusty. Can see the relationship, I can anyway.

But again, I think it is not seriously disputed that Rusty was clean - was one reason he was so popular at the time so I am told. Was selective breeding, no doubt.
User avatar
Wagonmaster
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3372
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:22 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby ezzy333 » Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:45 pm

Back 40 tro 50 years ago about the only white you could find was the Moesgaarg breeding, Was a real rarity to see a light colored dog in a trial and never in the show ring.

Its hard for me tro think that suddenly the dogs that could run turned white at the same time. I know for a fact that some people were using pointer to produce both color and run. Just have no idea how wide spread it was, but sure seems it could have been widely done. Just hope I am wrong.

Ezzy
User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 16600
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Postby Wagonmaster » Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:50 pm

Sure was talk about that. But also alot of people who bred selectively for white, and were painted with the brush of the talk. I don't know which were which. It may matter to you, doesn't to me because I like what we have now.

But I think the photos illustrate how the selective breeding occurred. Import a dog with a white spotted coat. Select from the next litter the whitest coat, and from the next and the next, and so on, and you have white coated dogs.

You are right, they were a rarity, but were some. That alone may have led some people to say "there must be some pointer in that dog." Since the breed was the product of breeding pointer to the German pointer around the turn of the century (1911?) the genes would be there.

More indicative to me than coat color, when you look at those old photos are frontal stops, foreheads, shape of noses, overall body conformation, tail set.

Have a book that is about 30 years old that shows types of wirehairs in Europe, the classic roan coats, and striking white coats, just like we see on shorthairs today, and some wirehairs today.
User avatar
Wagonmaster
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3372
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:22 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby ByeDog » Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:59 pm

Blake Chance's website (http://www.shorthair.com/danishhistory.html) had some pictures of Brown L, but that part of his site isn't working any longer. Those were the only two pictures I had ever seen of him.
ByeDog
 
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Postby TAK » Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:49 pm

If in fact it did happen??? Who cares!
If it fact it did produced dogs that I have in my kennel, I am all for it! I have lines that probley are the most critizized lines of the GSP world. What ever I do with them I always walk away with a smile!
User avatar
TAK
Rank: 5X Champion
 
Posts: 1389
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:45 am
Location: Utah

Postby Dirtysteve » Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:15 pm

TAK
Very well said!
Your half pointer :wink: (LOL) has impressed me so much, I decided I needed one.
He is coming in 2 weeks and my wife is ready to kill me.
This will make 2 GSP's and 1 lab, she said anymore and they will stay but I will go :cry:
User avatar
Dirtysteve
Rank: 3X Champion
 
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:06 pm
Location: Utah

Postby Dirtysteve » Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:53 pm

TAK
One more thing
I once asked a very knowledgeable man about theses lines. He said that people criticize because of jealousy.
How many other dogs did what he did?

(creek creek creek) there's another can of worms
User avatar
Dirtysteve
Rank: 3X Champion
 
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:06 pm
Location: Utah

Postby TAK » Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:29 pm

Dirtysteve wrote:TAK
One more thing
I once asked a very knowledgeable man about theses lines. He said that people criticize because of jealousy.
How many other dogs did what he did?

(creek creek creek) there's another can of worms


Are we talking about Rawhides Clown? If so, No there has not been a dog ever to win 3 NFC in a row.... I have been told more than once that he is out of a Half Pointer Sire. Jigs White Smoke. Who knows? I guess the big Question is what Pointer was it!
Also if this is true my Clown would only be 1/16 Pointer!
User avatar
TAK
Rank: 5X Champion
 
Posts: 1389
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:45 am
Location: Utah

Postby TAK » Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:30 pm

Dirtysteve wrote:TAK
Very well said!
Your half pointer :wink: (LOL) has impressed me so much, I decided I needed one.
He is coming in 2 weeks and my wife is ready to kill me.
This will make 2 GSP's and 1 lab, she said anymore and they will stay but I will go :cry:



Are ya talking about Speed or Clown? What did ya get?
User avatar
TAK
Rank: 5X Champion
 
Posts: 1389
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:45 am
Location: Utah

Postby larue » Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:16 am

I once heard a story told by a gsp pro who had won a
pointer championship with one of his gsp's.After multiple questions about his dog being half pointer,he agreed'd that his gsp was half pointer,but that his half pointer had just beat all there full pointers! The pointer guys had nothing more to say..
now that is a sense of humor.
larue
Rank: 5X Champion
 
Posts: 729
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:44 am
Location: southern wi

Postby Dirtysteve » Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:20 am

TAK
I'm talking about Rawhides Clown. But it was your Clown that impressed me.
My pup coming is out of Showtimes Rollin Thunder.
I also got a full brother to the one I had that is a son out of Sonny. I will have my hands full.
User avatar
Dirtysteve
Rank: 3X Champion
 
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:06 pm
Location: Utah

Postby markj » Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:08 am

Wasnt Blake involved in a dispute over his GSPs and is now working with another breed? I used to go through his town once in awhile and ate at the ranch/lodge in town, spoke with him a few times. Seemed to be a very nice man. Had a very cool website.
User avatar
markj
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 2490
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:36 pm
Location: Crescent Iowa

Postby snips » Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:29 pm

I had not heard anything about it, he came by here once and had York with him. He has another breed now?
User avatar
snips
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 5542
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:26 am
Location: n.ga.

Postby Wagonmaster » Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:24 pm

I also got a full brother to the one I had that is a son out of Sonny.


Do you mean Tonelli's Rising Sun? How do you like the son you have?
User avatar
Wagonmaster
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3372
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:22 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby Dirtysteve » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:51 pm

Yes he's out of Tonelli's Rising Sun.
So far I am very impressed with him.
He is only eight months old but he is doing very well.
User avatar
Dirtysteve
Rank: 3X Champion
 
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:06 pm
Location: Utah

Postby TAK » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:35 pm

markj wrote:Wasnt Blake involved in a dispute over his GSPs and is now working with another breed? I used to go through his town once in awhile and ate at the ranch/lodge in town, spoke with him a few times. Seemed to be a very nice man. Had a very cool website.


I believe Icefire is pretty good friends with Chance? I had heard that he stopped training for the public and then he stopped all at once. I had heard that he started a realestate business that has done great?
His site was tops always!
User avatar
TAK
Rank: 5X Champion
 
Posts: 1389
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:45 am
Location: Utah

Postby TAK » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:42 pm

Dirtysteve wrote:TAK
I'm talking about Rawhides Clown. But it was your Clown that impressed me.
My pup coming is out of Showtimes Rollin Thunder.
I also got a full brother to the one I had that is a son out of Sonny. I will have my hands full.


My Jesse dog is out of Ricky. Jesse is not a big running dog but very snappy. Good gundog/nstra range. She does have a killer nose tho. I will be running her this fall in NSTRA.
In person I have seen one other female out of Ricky. She was a bullet. Tim Hunt in Alabama has her. He shipped her in to bred to Clown 2 years ago. I sold my pick to a guy here in Rosy town. Just a hunter but he said she was the smartest GSP he has had. She has the same legs as my Clown tall and sleek.

What is the female side of your pup coming?

Bye the way, what is the big idea getting good bred GSP's and running in the same trials I do! Beat the best Pointers, Setters, Brits and Wifehairs around but another good GSP Gezzzezz! Just kidding!
User avatar
TAK
Rank: 5X Champion
 
Posts: 1389
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:45 am
Location: Utah

Postby Dirtysteve » Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:57 pm

The mother is Sliderock's High Elevation "sadie" which comes from Palermo's Brown E and Rawhides Mo-Reen.
It's out of the the dog I asked you about at the seminar.

I was hoping I could join you and whip up on all the "other" dogs, so we could show them the error of their selection in breeds :wink: Just kiddin guys no need to get angry :D

Whenever you get a free weekend give me a yell so I can come out and train with you.
User avatar
Dirtysteve
Rank: 3X Champion
 
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:06 pm
Location: Utah

Postby RCB » Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:07 pm

I have a bitch directly out of Rawhides Moreen that is a real wide running dog. I am going to breed her the cycle after bird season and was thinking about Sonny. Can you tell me a little more about how your dog is looking and if you have any info on the litter mates. Thanks.
RCB
 
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Postby TAK » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:15 pm

RCB wrote:I have a bitch directly out of Rawhides Moreen that is a real wide running dog. I am going to breed her the cycle after bird season and was thinking about Sonny. Can you tell me a little more about how your dog is looking and if you have any info on the litter mates. Thanks.


I have a grand son of Sonny. He is out of a dog called Redneck Empire. As far as I think Bud has had two All-age wins and has been sold to Terry Zigalinski. Not sure what he is doing so far.
With my Grand pup I am real pleased with him. He has the run, and a nose to die for. Not sure if he got it from Momma, she does too, or if it came from the sire? Here is a link of one of Sonnys get that I used for the stud to my Speed dog. Lots of style in all of my litter! http://www.taksdogs.netkennel.com/Pedig ... %27s%20RPM
User avatar
TAK
Rank: 5X Champion
 
Posts: 1389
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:45 am
Location: Utah

Postby TAK » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:17 pm

Dirtysteve wrote:The mother is Sliderock's High Elevation "sadie" which comes from Palermo's Brown E and Rawhides Mo-Reen.
It's out of the the dog I asked you about at the seminar.

I was hoping I could join you and whip up on all the "other" dogs, so we could show them the error of their selection in breeds :wink: Just kiddin guys no need to get angry :D

Whenever you get a free weekend give me a yell so I can come out and train with you.


Ahh good choice, I have see some of Matts dogs and they are extremelly nice!
User avatar
TAK
Rank: 5X Champion
 
Posts: 1389
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:45 am
Location: Utah

Postby Wagonmaster » Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:56 am

You can still access Blake Chance's "old" website, with all the old pics, by going to http://www.archive.org/, then search on www.shorthair.com. You will get a list of archived copies of the site. Pick just about any one in 2003 or 2004. Full of pics among other things.

This works to find archived copies of most sites.
User avatar
Wagonmaster
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3372
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:22 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby Wagonmaster » Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:46 am

We talked at one point about coat color in this thread. I was just at a friend's over the weekend, and was thumbing through a really excellent and well researched book called Der Deutsche Kurzhaar, by Georgina Byrne. Among other interesting things, the book says that Hermann Goering became the breed warden for the shorthairs around WWII, and he did not like white coats, of which there were a great many in Germany at the time. He felt that the roan coated dogs blended into the forest better. He therefore decreed that the white dogs should be put down, and a great many were. However, the genes survived, in Germany and in other European countries, and began to show up in Germany again after the war.

Am trying to get a copy of the book so can provide a quote, instead of a paraphrase.
User avatar
Wagonmaster
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3372
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:22 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby snips » Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:46 pm

I have the book. I believe Fred Singer bought up a bunch of them (if not all of them) and was sellig thm for 200. a pop. I paid 70. quite a few yrs ago.
User avatar
snips
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 5542
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:26 am
Location: n.ga.

Postby Dave Quindt » Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:14 pm

Wagonmaster wrote:
We talked at one point about coat color in this thread. I was just at a friend's over the weekend, and was thumbing through a really excellent and well researched book called Der Deutsche Kurzhaar, by Georgina Byrne. Among other interesting things, the book says that Hermann Goering became the breed warden for the shorthairs around WWII, and he did not like white coats, of which there were a great many in Germany at the time. He felt that the roan coated dogs blended into the forest better. He therefore decreed that the white dogs should be put down, and a great many were. However, the genes survived, in Germany and in other European countries, and began to show up in Germany again after the war.


John,

Shush! Don't go spreading facts like these! How is the belief that "any white GSP HAS to be a pointer cross because DKs are always dark (i.e. all of the dogs imported in the 50s)" going to survive with these facts becoming public? Stop spreading the truth - it gets in the way of good rumors!

While the NAZI movement is all but dead in Germany, the impacts of the nationalistic policies of the '30s are still felt in Germany today. This goes way beyong hunting dogs though.

On a related note........

On another board, the subject of English Pointers came up. If you review the Pointer in England and Europe vs. the Pointer here in the US, the American Pointer has much more white and much less color that the European Pointer. The all white pointer we see so often in the Miller dogs is virtually unheard of in Europe. I wonder what the pointer boys have been crossing their Pointers with?

Interesting observation.

FWIW,
Dave
Dave Quindt
Rank: 5X Champion
 
Posts: 876
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Postby ezzy333 » Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:28 pm

Dave,

It is pretty common knowledge that the very first GSP in Germany was white so it's not a big secret. However, they were not common when the dogs came to America. Back when I first became involved with birddogs about the only white you could find was the Moosgard breeding. Reason was exactly like the post said, that the Germans were breeding for roan as it didnt show up well in the field that they thought was important. I didn't know Goering was responsible though.

I am one of the ones that have said the white showed uo to fast and the dogs that aren't field trial breeding do not have much white yet. I know some dogs were crossed but hope it wasn't wide spread but knowing people I would like to see a DNA on them to prove it did or didn't. This in no way makes me feel that the field dogs aren't good whether true or not. I do know that the dogs are much more stylist now which is a huge improvement in my opinion.

Ezzy
User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 16600
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Postby Wagonmaster » Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:06 pm

It made some sense to me that the Moesgaard white coats were Danish imports, when I read that Goering tried to stamp out the white coats in Germany.

PS though, I have a 1967 book with a cover painting of two white and liver wirehairs that, other than the coat length, sure look like what we see today in the shorthairs. Am trying to find a way to scan it. First shot did not work.

I guess it has been said before ezzy, but i agree with you, i do not much care how they got where they are. i sure like em as they are.
User avatar
Wagonmaster
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3372
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:22 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby Margaret » Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:24 pm

I don't know why you guys are so fixated on colour.
I'd be more inclined to be concerned with conformational
differences and destruction of breed lines if I was worrying
about pointer crosses into GSP so they could win field trials
for their owners :cry:

Hector 1 which barely resembles today's GSP was white and patched.

The German breeding kennels all had their personal likes and dislikes, those who bred for forest work preferred the liver and the liver roan, others liked the white, which was then described as "grey-white" and that in itself is interesting, in the coat so there was all manner of coat patterning in the early 1900's.

If you look in Albiris or Amazon 2nd hand you can find The Complete German Shorthair by Herr Seiger & Dewitz Colpin
priced cheaply and full of information on the formation of the Deutsch Kurzhaar/GSP and full of old photo's.

Marg
Margaret
 
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Postby markj » Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:04 am

He therefore decreed that the white dogs should be put down, and a great many were.

This was happening here in the mid west amoung some breeders in the 60s and 70s when I first got into GSPs, had springers or my Dad did and I was a young pup then. Saw my first GSP work and it was all over for me :)

The Complete German Shorthair by Herr Seiger & Dewitz Colpin


I have a copy of this and there is a lot of background history. There is another written in German I am going to buy, then I will ask my mom in law to translate it next winter :) she has sisters still in Germany and Sweden we communicate with. Rumors flourish over there as they do here :)

I can say this about the 2 pups I have out of field trial lines, they have the very strong desire to be "first" to any object that may hold a bird. Isaw this desire to be first in the race horses my dad bred and raised then raced at Iowa and Indiana tracks. Some have it , some dont in horses. But does it mean they will only suffice in the race track world? no, many are on farms as cattle horses, many of my Dads went to hunter jumpers in California. Still a horse with the natural abilities they have, just a little more so on the desire to be first.

Dont know if this even means anything, just my observation.
User avatar
markj
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 2490
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:36 pm
Location: Crescent Iowa

Postby Wagonmaster » Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:27 am

I don't know why you guys are so fixated on colour.
I'd be more inclined to be concerned with conformational
differences and destruction of breed lines if I was worrying
about pointer crosses into GSP so they could win field trials
for their owners


I don't know that anyone on this thread is fixated on color, it is just a topic that came up. It is commonly used to say that the modern shorthair is part pointer. But don't see much support for that in the historical record.

Not meaning to be argumentative at all. My situation is that I trialed with the shorthairs alot, years ago, but bred wirehairs, so am kind of a newbie to the coat color debate that has gone on. I just found it interesting that there is so much historical information, including lots of pictures, showing white coats just like the one's we see today, many many decades ago.

The book I mentioned also had many solid blacks, and black and whites. I thought they were really beautiful and very striking, particularly the black and whites. Because the American standard does not permit blacks, I learned, obviously wrongly, that dogs with black coats were not "real" shorthairs. Boy, was that wrong.

Not sure that conformation comparisons help though. In both shorthairs and wirehairs, there were, as I understand it, many types or lines with distinctly different conformations. The wirehairs had at least five - Odin, Lump, Witboi, Harras and Regent, of which the Odin was by far the most common in the US. So which conformation type do you compare to?

Just an interesting topic that came up, and like markj i am not sure it even means anything.
User avatar
Wagonmaster
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 3372
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:22 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby Margaret » Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:40 pm

All I can remember offhand is two original GSP - ? von der
Maylust and Artus Sand. These two were called the "pillars of the breed" and the two lines combined resulted in excellent progeny.

The next that I know of would be Axel v. Wasserschling, used so much for his prepotency in producing such good progeny that it apparently became difficult to find a line free of his influence.

Another more modern was, I think, Ciro Von Bichtenwald (sp?)

It's not so much the dog itself, it's what it throws and the consistency of the progeny. The bitches miss out here rather because they can pass their greatness on to only a few pups, unlike a male.
Margaret
 
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Postby Dave Quindt » Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:56 pm

Margaret wrote:

The next that I know of would be Axel v. Wasserschling, used so much for his prepotency in producing such good progeny that it apparently became difficult to find a line free of his influence.


Its not that hard; most of the field lines in the US DON'T go back to him at all. Other than via Hustler and Esser's Chick, there is really no connection to Axel in the US field dogs. Show dogs are another story.

Virtually all of the available breed histories don't deal with the influence of the Danish, Swedish and Norwegian lines in the development of the field GSP in the US, which is why there isn't a truly accurate history available.

JMO,
Dave
Dave Quindt
Rank: 5X Champion
 
Posts: 876
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Postby snips » Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:11 pm

I don`t tend to put the stock in coat color as much as the phyisical characteristics also. When I saw the bowling ball fronts and some of the heads on some of the trial dogs, well, get a clue!! The conformation tells the story in many cases.
User avatar
snips
GDF Junkie
 
Posts: 5542
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:26 am
Location: n.ga.

PreviousNext

Return to GDF "Hall of Fame" Posts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

| Pedigrees

THIS POST : 2004 #1 GSP ? brought to you by Gun Dog Supply: Dog Training Collars & Hunting Dog Supplies

Click here to tweet this post

  • NOT logged in
  • 2004 #1 GSP ?
  • ./viewtopic.php?f=100&t=1538&start=50&sid=6ccba982bcfd4d0e5a85c001ce89b4f7