Horse wrecks really suck

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Wa Chukar Hunter
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Horse wrecks really suck

Post by Wa Chukar Hunter » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:37 pm

At a trial a week or so back my horse reared and came over landing on top of me and fracturing my pelvis. Sucks, never realized how much I miss the dogs and stuff until I got laid up with this. And it wrecked my favorite saddle that may not be repairable. Really sucks

Keith - Posting from Under the Live Oak trees
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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by Neil » Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:43 pm

Truly sorry, buddy, but it happens to all of us. With horses it is not "if" only "when". Yours was worse than most, but not as bad as some.

Be tough, you will get through it, you have our prayers,

Neil

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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by BigShooter » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:12 am

That doesn't sound good at all. Like they say there's only two kinds of horseback trialers, those that have wrecked & those that will. I have no experience with the first category of riders. Although I've had more than my share of accidents and orthopaedic surgeries (at least ten surgeries that I recall), I can't fully appreciate what you are going through. Best wishes for a speedy recovery!
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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by jb03 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:49 am

I don't field trial horse back but do a little cowboy work on the ranch. I had a horse stumble while at an all out run. I went over the left front shoulder and she rolled on top of me. Only by the grace of God did I not get seriously hurt. I felt the saddle on one side of me, and then all of a sudden, the mare was standing on the other side. A co-worker was watching and couldn't believe I got up and walked off.

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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Apr 01, 2010 3:34 pm

Keith -

There but for the grace of God....

It amazes me sometimes that I am still in once piece, with some of the adventures I have had while on horseback. I took a spill while scouting at a trial this fall andI credit my horse with the fact that I am still walking. He got tangled in a vine while jumping a narrow drainage ditch and went over on his side. I popped one leg out of the stirrup and swung it over as the horse was falling . When he hit and slid forward, I slid off. He never kicked out or rolled. When I got up I saw three separate hoofprints on my body, but there was just the hoofmark. He must have felt or seen his hooves hit me and pulled them because i didn't get so much as a black and blue.


Never had on go over backwards on me though. Doubt if I would be quick enough to get out of the way.

Hang in there. With a little luck everything should be back to normal in time for summer training.

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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by Brushbustin Sporting Dogs » Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:36 pm

Just two weekends ago I wa scouting a dog and was in a run with the horse.... GOPHER HOLE... I bailed when his nose hit the ground he went head over heals and just missed me. Landed on my ankle it was sore but I was LUCKY... Horses can really hurt a person and sometimes they don't even mean too.

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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by jb03 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:31 pm

I also had my gelding try to buck me off. His head went way under and then he exploded straight up in the air and came over backwards. I was able to kick loose of the stirrups and crab crawl out of the way. He hit on his side and just stood up and stayed there.

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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by jimbo&rooster » Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:34 pm

I grew up around horses and it seemed like I spent as much time looking up at them from my back as i did down at them from the saddle. broke ribs and a cracked tail bone convinced me to buy comfortable boots and slower dogs when i started hunting on my own. heres to a speedy recovery.
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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:05 pm

Hey Keith,

It sounds like you and I are both on the injured/disabled list right now. I also had a horse rear up and come over 2.5 mos. ago while I was judging a hunt test. I'm still recovering from the accident. I ended up with thoracic herniated discs, a sprained medial cruciate ligament, a bone bruise on the head of my tibia, and a fractured orbital bone from when she hit me in the face while rearing. I had surgery to repair the fracture 2 mos. ago so that I could look up and to try to repair the double vision. I can look up but the vision hasn't cleared up and probably won't from what the surgeon and opthalmologist say. :cry: I'll probably never be able to hunt again because it's my right eye that is affected and I am right eye dominant. I also can't drive after dark because of the headlights.

The terrible part of this (and this is for those of you who judge tests/trials) is that the insurance through the AKC that the clubs get isn't worth the paper it's printed on! My medical bills are well over $60,000 and while I have my own medical insurance I have a VERY high deductible so I will possibly be out a large sum of money. The club insurance only will pay $5000 and I have a clause (which most people's has) that if the other insurance pays anything that must go to refund my insurance company. So if you don't have your own health insurance you are sh** out of luck!

Best of luck to ya! I know exactly how you feel. I miss being able to get out in the field with my dogs.
Last edited by CherrystoneWeims on Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by BigShooter » Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:06 pm

Pam,

That's terrible, especially the diplopia (double vision). I know how everything else feels because I've had as bad or worse with each of the other body parts you mentioned. I'm sure you're coordinated enough to learn to shoot left handed. "Where there's a will - there's a way."

Unfortunately I know all too well that it isn't what happens to us in life as much as it is about how we handle it. Your normally positive attitude & a loving family will help you through this.

May God Bless!
Mark

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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by Wa Chukar Hunter » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:33 am

CherrystoneWeims wrote:Hey Keith,

It sounds like you and I are both on the injured/disabled list right now. I also had a horse rear up and come over 2.5 mos. ago while I was judging a hunt test. I'm still recovering from the accident. Thank god she didn't land on me. I felt her go past that point of no return when she reared so I bailed off of her.

I ended up with thoracic herniated discs, a sprained medial cruciate ligament, a bone bruise on the head of my tibia, and a fractured orbital bone from when she hit me in the face while rearing. I had surgery to repair the fracture 2 mos. ago so that I could look up and to try to repair the double vision. I can look up but the vision hasn't cleared up and probably won't from what the surgeon and opthalmologist say. :cry: I'll probably never be able to hunt again because it's my right eye that is affected and I am right eye dominant. I also can't drive after dark because of the headlights.

The terrible part of this (and this is for those of you who judge tests/trials) is that the insurance through the AKC that the clubs get isn't worth the paper it's printed on! My medical bills are well over $60,000 and while I have my own medical insurance I have a VERY high deductible so I will possibly be out a large sum of money. The club insurance only will pay $5000 and I have a clause (which most people's has) that if the other insurance pays anything that must go to refund my insurance company. So if you don't have your own health insurance you are sh** out of luck!

Best of luck to ya! I know exactly how you feel. I miss being able to get out in the field with my dogs.
Pam - Very sorry to hear that you are laid up too. I guess I got lucky from the standpoint that I was neither killed or paralyzed. And most of my parts are functioning correctly. :wink:

I am not looking forward to my medical bills, although I only had one night in the hospital. Being self employed and making what amounts to minimum wage I did not have medical coverage. So, I am Filling out endless requests and applications for aid - good thing about it I finally did apply for my VA Benefits.

Anyway, Pam I hope you heal fast and get back in the saddle soon.

Regards

Keith Hickam
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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by DGFavor » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:55 am

Wow, get well guys and gals! Pelvis fractures are very common in horse wrecks Keith - seen a ton of 'em and they are usually either really, really life threatening serious or a painful inconvenience with some crutch walking for awhile, not a whole lot of in betweens it seems like. Most folks do real well with them and bet you do to! Those rear over backwards horse wrecks by far usually result in the most serious injuries we see - usually results in a bad solid organ injury, liver or spleen, and crushed pelvis - definitely having seen those influenced me not wanting to ride a saddle with a horn anymore. We see a ton of those inferior orbital fractures with inferior rectus muscle entrapment too Pam, saw a guy just a couple days ago with it as a matter of fact. I kind of lose track of those patients after they get out of the ED but the ones I've followed up have usually done well also - don't lose hope!

After I nearly bought the farm a year ago, I've taken to riding with a protective vest (it's a Hit Air vest air bag deal that I can attest to it's efficacy having had to use it out hunting last fall!! Worked great and I never knew I hit the ground) and have a helmet that I wear always riding one particular horse of mine and should just wear all the time. I wear pull on boots that'll come off if I get hung up again and went back to my hooded stirrups so shouldn't have a foot hang up again. Don't know how much more personal protection a guy can do and still comfortably enjoy being out there. I have completely cartwheeled end over end twice, a handful of times been down on the ice like someone pulled the rug out from under us, and a couple other pile ups that were just low speed tip overs. Probably fortunate only been in the hospital once.

Be safe!!

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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by BigShooter » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:00 am

Doug,

Do you remember which model you purchased? Did you consider the light weight equestrian model?
Mark

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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by Wa Chukar Hunter » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:59 pm

Doug - How convenient is that air bag thingy when you are handling and have lots of finds? Pretty easy to do? Did not get my head banged up - thank God - most people think I am loopy enough as it is :wink:

Keith
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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:21 pm

Doug,

Thank goodness I was riding in my own All-purpose saddle! If I had been riding in the Wintec that the horse's owner normally uses I may have been more seriously hurt because it has such a deep seat and I may have been trapped in it. I've been riding for over 40 yrs. (I used to compete in combined training) and it was instinctual to bail out of the way of her falling over.

I had the surgery to repair the fracture two months ago and from what both physicians told me the diplopia should have resolved by now.

Do you work in an ER? How about you, Mark? Both of you seem to have medical backgrounds. I'm fortunate that when the accident happened it wasn't far from the hospital where my husband practices. My friend called him right away and he met me there and I was seen promptly.

Keith,
Last edited by CherrystoneWeims on Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by DGFavor » Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:51 pm

This is the model I use:
http://www.safermoto.com/products/vest_jv/index.html

I bought the vest originally from Hit Air and used it as sent. After I had another ejection episode last fall and triggered the vest, I had to replace the CO2 cartridge and got them from Safer Moto as well as I got their updated valving that inflates the vest in half the time of the original setup. They were awesome to deal with. It is a little hot but that's a small price for the protection offered. It does take some practice to make it a habit to unhook yourself before you bail off to go work birds and to rehook it up when you get excited handling your dog. I've never accidentally engaged the thing but close a time or two. I'm going to rig up a tether that's a little quicker to hook/unhook than the one supplied. After I fell last fall, I shortened my tether up a little - seems like I was bouncing around with the saddle jerked out from under me for a little long before the thing went off but it was definitely up and fully inflated when I hit the ground - I honestly never felt a thing. Was very pleased with it.

Yes Pam, my real job is an Emergency Medicine doc....I see plenty of ways to get hurt besides horses - we all kind of pick our poisons and do our best to enjoy 'em safely!

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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:28 pm

bklhkj
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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by BigShooter » Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:27 pm

CherrystoneWeims wrote: LOL That's what I keep telling my mother and husband! My husband is a Hematopathologist
That's quite the subspecialty almost as esoteric as the "pediatric neuro-radiologist".
CherrystoneWeims wrote: and all of his physician buddies keep telling me to stay away from horses. "Oh they are too dangerous." "They will kill you." etc. I keep telling them that cars, crossing the street, tractors, etc are also dangerous. LOL My husband has a small plane as does a few of his friends and they don't worry about that!!
One brother flies a small plane AND rides horses.
CherrystoneWeims wrote:I'll have to check out the vest. As far as facial protection I guess we could start using hockey helmets with full face cages. A few of my friends have also had orbital fractures from horses.
I haven't ridden much for a while so I thought maybe I should take some lessons (which I've never had) just to be safer on a horse. I read Doug's original post when he got the vest, now your orbital fracture. I'm thinking air vest & a helmet with a face guard. It'll look funny but it might be cheap insurance. Next thing you know they'll have inflatable pants to further protect the pelvic area & the legs. With all of that protective gear we'll look something like those knights of old! LOL
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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by daniel77 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:19 pm

I'll say this and let the chips fall where they may, but you guys need to get some better horses. May I suggest an American Quarter Horse with some sense, rather than those oh so prone to high headedness and crazy wrecks gaited horses. Just a thought. Though I'll admit that the only horse who has successfully flipped over on me was a QH. The saddle horn hit me in the middle of my left thigh and made a hole you could put a beer can in. Had to put my belt on the leg to stop the bleeding and wiggle backwards on my butt 3/4 of a mile back to the barn including going through a live hot-wire fence. That was not a fun day. Still rather go that way than in the dang truck on some dang road.
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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by Neil » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:02 am

Doug knows best about safety, but I like the gear the rodeo guys use, both the helmets and flake jackets. For awhile they were just using hockey helmets and real military flake jackets, but now they are making specialty items for them. The stuff works. And no, I don't wear either, but my granddaughters do and I suggest all other do.

Pam,

In what way did you feel the club was liable for your accident? Were they negligent in some way? The premiums for this "worthless" insurance is about $800.00 a year (more than a lot of clubs can easily afford), I fear if everyone that falls off a horse makes a claim it is only go to go up and we are going to lose clubs. I think there is only one company that offers coverage for both horses and guns, I would hate to see them pull out.

It was my understanding that all handlers sign a release of liability on the entry form, I don't know about judges.

As I said at the time I am very sorry for your injuries, I consider you one of the good people of the internet, so please do not think I am harshly judging you, I just want to understand your logic,

Neil

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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by BigShooter » Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:12 am

Neil wrote:Doug knows best about safety, but I like the gear the rodeo guys use, both the helmets and flake jackets.
Neil,

One difference I can think of between rodeo horseback & bull riders versus trialers is the increased mobility the rodeo riders need to get back on their feet and get out of the ring. Just speculating out loud, the air vest probably decreases escape mobility more than the rodeo type flak vest. I'm also guessing the rodeo flak vest is more able to prevent goring from a bull. In addition it appears their flak vests are better suited to withstand multiple punishments in the ring as well as being in place 100% of the time without the need to rely on a lanyard and CO2 cartridge. I'm pretty sure their helmet faceguards are the right kind to look for though.

Neil, if your horse acts like a bronc often enough, don't get rodeo gear ... get a different horse! :P :lol:

Good thinkin' though, especially about the right helmet. :idea:
Mark

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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:31 am

In what way did you feel the club was liable for your accident? Were they negligent in some way? The premiums for this "worthless" insurance is about $800.00 a year (more than a lot of clubs can easily afford), I fear if everyone that falls off a horse makes a claim it is only go to go up and we are going to lose clubs. I think there is only one company that offers coverage for both horses and guns, I would hate to see them pull out.

It was my understanding that all handlers sign a release of liability on the entry form, I don't know about judges.

As I said at the time I am very sorry for your injuries, I consider you one of the good people of the internet, so please do not think I am harshly judging you, I just want to understand your logic,
Neil,

The horse was provided to me by the club. This was NOT my horse. I did not sign a waiver and was employed by the club as I had signed a contract with them. I can't go into other details.

What if a judge were to get shot? I know that there is a very high number of judges who do not have ANY health insurance. An incident like this or a shooting would bankrupt them. I would hope that clubs and the AKC would cover their judges who judge with expense to themselves, have to become qualified to judge, etc.
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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by Neil » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:51 am

Pam,

When someone is accidentally shot, they indeed can be innocent victim, in the case of a field trial shooting it is hard for me to understand how the club would have been negligent. If you don't think you are in risk every time you go to a shoot to kill trial you don't understand people and guns.

And even more difficult to comprehend how they would be negligent in the case of a judge getting injured by a horse they furnished, in most cases one loaned by a club official. Nearly all states have protection for land owners for equine injuries as it is recognized as a inherently dangerous activity, that anyone ridding assumes a great risk. I believe that should be extended to field trial clubs.

What do you think the club could have done differently to prevent your injuries? What do you recommend that clubs do in the future to protect judges? Where you are the club official (I assume you are) do you think you and the club should be liable if someone has a slip and fall, or they are robbed and injured, or have an auto accident on the way to the motel after the happy hour, or ?

Is it your belief that the club should have been sure that the horse they loaned you was injury proof?

I do wish you good health,

Neil

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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:57 am

Neil,
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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by Neil » Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:30 pm

Pam,

We need to move this from you personally and a way from your specific situation.

But to answer your question if I hire a man to work on my farm as a contractor, and since he does not have the equipment he says he will do the work if he can use my neighbors tractor, I agree and pay the good neighbor a token amount to use it.

Through no fault of the equipment, the contractor is seriously injured, I do not think I nor the neighbor are morally liable.

It is called personal responsibility, and the contractor should not have engaged in dangerous activities for hire if he was not going to assume the risk.

Yet in today's courts, the contractor might win a sizable judgment against me, the neighbor, the manufacture of the tractor, and the person that last serviced it.

I suspect that AKC does make some money on the sales of the event insurance, but like I said, the last I knew there was only one insurance company that thought it was a good market for both guns and horses.

Neil

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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by tn red » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:38 pm

daniel77 wrote:I'll say this and let the chips fall where they may, but you guys need to get some better horses. May I suggest an American Quarter Horse with some sense, rather than those oh so prone to high headedness and crazy wrecks gaited horses. Just a thought. Though I'll admit that the only horse who has successfully flipped over on me was a QH. The saddle horn hit me in the middle of my left thigh and made a hole you could put a beer can in. Had to put my belt on the leg to stop the bleeding and wiggle backwards on my butt 3/4 of a mile back to the barn including going through a live hot-wire fence. That was not a fun day. Still rather go that way than in the dang truck on some dang road.
Daniel77,
I understand that you train cutting horses, I also train horses for a living and start 35 to 40 colts a year, and maintain an average of 20 horses in training year round. Some for pleasure and some for show. I have been a professional Tennessee Walking Horse Trainer for the past 25 years. Out of the 6,500, or so, colts I've started a few were QH. In my experience, I have learned that a gaited horse has the most sense and willingness to please. That is not to say I have not had terrible wrecks on gaited horses as well as QH horses and I do not claim any authority on QH. The man who taught me about horses was a QH man and he stayed busted and hurt most all the time. I enjoy all breeds and don't feel one specific breed is superior to another. We trail ride a lot and ride with all breeds, Pasa Finos, Mules, Quarter Horses, Spotted Saddle Horses, Walking Horses and Racking Horses. All have the right temperment, which is the most important thing no matter what the breed, every breed has it's outlaws. Accidents happen when riding horses, they do have a mind of their own.

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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by daniel77 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:45 pm

Tn Red,
I certainly didn't mean to offend, and despite my chips falling comment, that reply was mostly tongue in cheek. All animals have their own intended purpose and I'm not trying to look down on any other breed. I'll readily admit that my beloved QHs would have a hard time keeping up with your gaited horses. That being said, there are some generalities that one can draw. For instance, I've noted that very few race horses buck at all, though when you do find one, he's a lot more likely to be very bad than your average cow horse. I've only started a few dozen gaited horses, and most of those have been TWs. In my limited experience with gaited horses, they are far more likely to be "lite in the front end" than any other breed or type of horse that I have experience with. Another generality that I believe in is that most horses that rear do so due to rider error, most commonly too much pulling on the reins. I find, however, that the TWs tend to commonly rear as their first response to fear, rather than say spooking, or running or bucking. Not all, but a higher percentage than other breeds, in my experience. Not saying that other breeds don't have their drawbacks or outlaws, just that this type of horse is most likely to have this type of problem. I'll readily admit that a very well bred cow/cutting QH is the most likely animal I've ever come across as far as being froggy. I'll also say that of all the wrecks I've had, I consider rearing and one who may/has fallen in so doing, as the absolute- bar none - most dangerous type of horse behavior that there is. I've ridden them through timber, briars, washes, and even electric and barbed wire fences, but you can't win riding one to the ground.
I have only started a mere 600+ head (1/10th the number you claim) and I've only met 4 men ever (including Ray Hunt and Joe Wolters) that I know can boast having started more colts than I. I'm not calling you out, but 6500 head started is 260 head/year for that 25 years you have been doing this. And you state that you only start 35-40/year :?: . If you spent 1 hr/day/horse and only rode each colt for 30 days, assuming 20 rides or hours/month, that is 108 hrs/week doing nothing but starting colts for 25 years. I find this to be quite improbable. Especially if you've only been starting 40/yr for very long. Maybe there is a typo. I hope so. If not, and It's true that you've personally started 6500 head, my hat is off to you sir. Otherwise, I call BS.
Did you, by chance, help out crunching the numbers for the recent healthcare Bill?
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CherrystoneWeims
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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:30 pm

In my limited experience with gaited horses, they are far more likely to be "lite in the front end" than any other breed or type of horse that I have experience with. Another generality that I believe in is that most horses that rear do so due to rider error, most commonly too much pulling on the reins. I find, however, that the TWs tend to commonly rear as their first response to fear, rather than say spooking, or running or bucking. Not all, but a higher percentage than other breeds, in my experience.


I ride with light hands and use my seat and legs more than anything for control. So it's not that I am even using reins!
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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by tn red » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:01 pm

The math may be off a little but not by much. I would like to explain how I arrived at this number.
I didn't actually count but it would work out like this: 25 years is 300 months, that would break down to an average of 21 colts a month. Sept. to April are the busiest months for starting colts. I can easily see 20 colts go through my barn at that time with and additional 7-10 throughout the rest of the year. This does not include the years I spent as a kid learning to ride and train horses to begin with. :) I can ride 30 horses a day but please understand I have a great staff of support. I spend the majority of my time in the saddle. This may seem like an unrealistic number but it's sure not B\S. I'm not comparing myself to anyone, including the gentlemen you mentioned, I'm sure they have forgotten more about horses that I will ever know.
Please, check my math... I'm a horse trainer not a math whiz. :D
You may want to review how many colts you have started over the years... you may be suprized, they add up quickly!

As to the rearing problem that seems to be happening, the only suggestion I could make is to have your horses teeth looked at. WH do require regular teeth work because so much of the communication from the rider is done through the mouth.


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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by Neil » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:40 am

Yes, I have found TWH's to be light on the front end, that is why you see such complicated tie downs, war bonnets, and such for them.

And nearly every rider that has not learned with gaited horses tends to pull up instead of back on the reins making it worse, and when they get up the air and you start to lose your balance, unless you bail, you will pull on the reins.

I love the advice that experienced horseman give from the tailgate, but when it happens and they are a horseback, they end up on the ground, too. No matter how quick you are when one comes over backwards you have just slightly better than a 50% chance of having a horse in your lap. You get some indication of which side he is going to try to get up on as he falls, you need to go the other way, but too many times they change their minds or you pick wrong.

Horses will hurt you, as you get older you will get hurt worse.

You could be the leading RCA saddle bronc rider, and if he wants you off his back, he will find a way, now that is what they call a fact!

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Re: Horse wrecks really suck

Post by Wa Chukar Hunter » Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:36 pm

Well, according to Jerry Lewis (pro handler of all age setters) who was the judge, who was right there to witness what happened - I stayed with him pretty good through him rearing twice, and that my reins were not tight, and it didn't appear that I pulled him over. He felt on the 3rd time up Bob lost his footing in the mud (it had been raining) and he came over on me. I was on the ground before him and I was trying to roll out of the way when he landed on me. I make no claims to being a superior rider (although I spend alot of time on horses, training/handling dogs).

Bob is a fiery horse at times (I mostly use him for scouting, not handling or judging) and wants to be in the front and sometimes gets antsy when he is made to stand still, especially in walking stakes, as the pace is usually pretty slow. This is usually on cool days and when I haven't ridden him down yet (that can sometimes take a few hours each day for up to a week). No I don't ACE him. When I ride him with my trooper saddle we usually ride him with a tie down - but generally not with my aussie saddle (which I was riding and is my favorite)
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