The Ultimate Hypocrisy

[mask]

I'm sure that Gloria is a nice person her views just differ from mine. I can tell that my views differ from the springer guy as well. Bear in mind I'm a guy that doesn't believe that dueling should have been outlawed If you think that the next gun law passed will be the last, and you can reason with the anti-gun crowd, you are delusional.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Do you really think that every woman who has been raped reported it to you? And the numbers can vary but he most accurate numbers come from anonymous surveys. Most acquaintance rapes are not reported (for a variety of reasons) so police reports are not accurate.

I never said that but I can promise that I have more experience in this field and my numbers are based on true numbers of women who have faced VIOLENT confrontations rather then "anonymous" surveys that often include false accusations.... Trust me, your numbers are way off. The closer number is that 75% of the cases reported are raped by someone that they don't know. I will agree that many go un-reported so that number cant be added into the violent numbers that are......

[mnaj_springer]

Do you really think that every woman who has been raped reported it to you? And the numbers can vary but he most accurate numbers come from anonymous surveys. Most acquaintance rapes are not reported (for a variety of reasons) so police reports are not accurate.

I never said that but I can promise that I have more experience in this field and my numbers are based on true numbers of women who have faced VIOLENT confrontations rather then "anonymous" surveys that often include false accusations.... Trust me, your numbers are way off. The closer number is that 75% of the cases reported are raped by someone that they don't know. I will agree that many go un-reported so that number cant be added into the violent numbers that are......

You're wrong. Sorry. The numbers say most rapes and rape attempts are perpetrated by people those victims had met or known. And saying anonymous surveys are full of false accusations is ridiculous. What is to be gained? It's not like they ask "who dunit?" You saying that continues the attitude of "blaming the victim" because it creates an environment in which victims honesty and moral fiber is questioned ("Are you sure?" "Did you ask for it?"). Anytime a woman or man says "stop" or "no" or "that's enough," etc. then it's done, and any continued physical advances falls under the category of nonconsensual sex, aka rape.

Brazo, I am not saying you don't have the experience you have. But as a worker in the mental health field I would say 80% of the women and girls I have worked with have been raped or sexually assaulted. Almost every time it is by someone they developed some kind of relationship with (friends, family, friends of friends). In fact I have never heard of one of our clients experiencing the "stranger in the dark" rape.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

It's always interesting to address a topic at the beginning of a post and check back in several weeks to see where the discussion has evolved. Its like lining a bunch of people up and asking them to pass a message down the line.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

mnaj Since one of your posts was aimed at me personally let me tell you I know a woman that was raped repeatedly by boys & men in her life that should have protected her was family & friends of family.She is now 52 yrs old,a very smart & intelligent woman but has severe issues because of her past.The stories she has told me are beyond my comprehension & these are only the ones she would tell me so don't tell me I belittle women by bringing up rape because I have seen the results.She now is a behavior therapist at a home for abused children as your self & their lives have been heck also.

This thread has been edited to remove subject matter that had no relativity to the subject.

[mnaj_springer]

mnaj Since one of your posts was aimed at me personally let me tell you I know a woman that was raped repeatedly by boys & men in her life that should have protected her was family & friends of family.She is now 52 yrs old,a very smart & intelligent woman but has severe issues because of her past.The stories she has told me are beyond my comprehension & these are only the ones she would tell me so don't tell me I belittle women by bringing up rape because I have seen the results.She now is a behavior therapist at a home for abused children as your self & their lives have been heck also.

This thread has been edited to remove subject matter that had no relativity to the subject.

You didn't belittle women with your comment. You used the least common form of it to defend gun rights. My point is that guns can't defend against the majority of rape. I'm not sure how to read your last sentence.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Yeah well maybe not but talking is NO DEFENSE for any kind of rape!Remember you want to discuss our gun rights I will not there is nothing to discuss & as for the last sentence ask the mods they removed & then wrote the sentence not me.
Don't call me out on this or anything else again I've had enough of you & as for women do you think any women would talk to me about her personal tragic life if I was the man you THINK I am??

NO MORE mnaj (PERIOD)

[Neil]

mnaj Since one of your posts was aimed at me personally let me tell you I know a woman that was raped repeatedly by boys & men in her life that should have protected her was family & friends of family.She is now 52 yrs old,a very smart & intelligent woman but has severe issues because of her past.The stories she has told me are beyond my comprehension & these are only the ones she would tell me so don't tell me I belittle women by bringing up rape because I have seen the results.She now is a behavior therapist at a home for abused children as your self & their lives have been heck also.

This thread has been edited to remove subject matter that had no relativity to the subject.

You didn't belittle women with your comment. You used the least common form of it to defend gun rights. My point is that guns can't defend against the majority of rape. I'm not sure how to read your last sentence.

You obviously haven't been around many women that are skilled with firearms and are willing to use them. I know many that would shoot a rapist, no matter the relationship. And it cuts down on spousal abuse, they might not kill the offender, but he can't be sure.

Unlike the left wants you to believe, an armed citizenry makes for a more peaceful society. Not many bullies want to risk dying.

[mnaj_springer]

Neil, you can't very well use a gun when incapacitated by a roofie, or other drug, now can you? And neither the left or right wants anyone to know anything. They both compete to brainwash the most people.

[mask]

This is getting silly. manj, if you want to talk about rape prevention lets do that. What most are talking about here is gun control. I have bumped heads with animal rights people for years and they are also anti-gun. If you let them get one bill passed they will be looking to pass another. If a gun allows one woman to protect herself I'm all for letting her have any kind she wants.

[ezzy333]

Neil, you can't very well use a gun when incapacitated by a roofie, or other drug, now can you? And neither the left or right wants anyone to know anything. They both compete to brainwash the most people.

Think maybe they succeeded.

[mnaj_springer]

Mask, I didn't bring up the point about rape, I just wanted to educate people about it. And I've never opposed guns either. I just questioned the status quo which led to people's heads nearly exploding,

Ezzy, you're right. And despite what people here assume, I'm moderate politically, and only a liberal in the classic sense that I believe in the right to property, freedom, and equal rights for all.

[ezzy333]

Mask, I didn't bring up the point about rape, I just wanted to educate people about it. And I've never opposed guns either. I just questioned the status quo which led to people's heads nearly exploding,

Ezzy, you're right. And despite what people here assume, I'm moderate politically, and only a liberal in the classic sense that I believe in the right to property, freedom, and equal rights for all.

That not only is not classical but isn't allowed in the liberal playbook. Probably would be better to educate people that are interested in the subject rather than try to put it in a thread with a completely different subject.

I saw no heads exploding but did see people question your judgment as well they should. Most of us have worked way to hard to try and protect what the constitution gave us because they knew it was needed if we were to protect our rights as well as yours.

Ezzy

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Do you really think that every woman who has been raped reported it to you? And the numbers can vary but he most accurate numbers come from anonymous surveys. Most acquaintance rapes are not reported (for a variety of reasons) so police reports are not accurate.

I never said that but I can promise that I have more experience in this field and my numbers are based on true numbers of women who have faced VIOLENT confrontations rather then "anonymous" surveys that often include false accusations.... Trust me, your numbers are way off. The closer number is that 75% of the cases reported are raped by someone that they don't know. I will agree that many go un-reported so that number cant be added into the violent numbers that are......

You're wrong. Sorry. The numbers say most rapes and rape attempts are perpetrated by people those victims had met or known. And saying anonymous surveys are full of false accusations is ridiculous. What is to be gained? It's not like they ask "who dunit?" You saying that continues the attitude of "blaming the victim" because it creates an environment in which victims honesty and moral fiber is questioned ("Are you sure?" "Did you ask for it?"). Anytime a woman or man says "stop" or "no" or "that's enough," etc. then it's done, and any continued physical advances falls under the category of nonconsensual sex, aka rape.

Brazo, I am not saying you don't have the experience you have. But as a worker in the mental health field I would say 80% of the women and girls I have worked with have been raped or sexually assaulted. Almost every time it is by someone they developed some kind of relationship with (friends, family, friends of friends). In fact I have never heard of one of our clients experiencing the "stranger in the dark" rape.

The fact that you claim to work in the health field and have never heard of a case of stranger rape simply confirms your lack of knowledge of the true numbers.It really doesn't matter who commits the crime.. More women wouldn't get raped if they were trained in self defense and since women are generally not as strong as men, they need every advantage. My classes go far beyond just owning a gun. And remember I said VIOLENT.

you can continue to console those that it has happened to and I will do my best to put you out of business by preventing it...

[mnaj_springer]

Brazo, I have a hard time following your logic about my knowledge. One would think my experience points to the statistical rarity of stranger rape. And rape prevention is more than guns and self defense classes. We also need to teach young men to respect women and also teach those same young men to stand up to other men and tell them the culture of rape is wrong.

That being said, we both are part of the prevention of rape.

[Neil]

Springer,

Once again you prove you know little of strong women, the rapist might drug one, but he best move under an assumed name, cause they will track him down.

Guns empower women, protecting them from strangers and those they know. A woman as helpless is a suburban concept, the armed inter-city and country ones will shoot, to fend off the attack or after in revenge.

If I were dealing with rape victims, I would advise them to get a CCW. At best it would prevent future attacks, otherwise it would cut way back on recidivism.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

There are 4 tiers of violent crimes. 1 Prevention 2 Intervention 3 Recovery 4 The grave.... Choose which one you want. Most people will choose #1 but they don't know how to get there. Most victims are either random or "marked" and the police can only react after something is in progress or investigate after the fact.

Not only does owning a gun (and knowing how to use it) increase your odds of avoiding 2,3 and 4, its gives a person confidence that they can defend themselves and their love ones. The actual type of gun should not matter.

I personally carry a handgun, prefer my 10 shot 12ga and 30shot AR at home.....Suck it if it offends anyone, its my right.

[mnaj_springer]

Neil, I appreciate your view of strong women. You might even see yourself as progressive. But in the scenario you just described, that hypothetical woman was still raped. Then she took her gun to "get revenge," which in the context of this forum makes me assume she shot, maybe killed, her attacker. That's premeditated murder. Now she's facing life in prison, or worse in states that allow the death penalty.

A few things:
- Being raped is more than that moment, that one event. It leads women to question themselves, question the relationships in their life (yes including the men), and even question their own value.

-Also, if a woman is drinking and has a roofie slipped in her drink she may not remember who the attacker is... So there is no one to seek vengeance against with her guns blazing.

-My point is stop using rape to defend gun rights. It's not a gun issue, it's a men's issue (men are overwhelmingly likely to be the perpetrators).

[Neil]

About strong armed women, before my cousin was accepted into the police, as a morals test he was asked what he would do if ordered to arrest his mother, without hesitation he relied, "Call for back up".

After 9-11 we were doing disaster drills, and the former FBI SAC conducting the exercise explained if I were forced to shelter in place and phones were down they would send someone to notify my wife. I told him before they headed down my 1/2 mile drive they best go unarmed and wave a white flag.

I fear the attention to believe women victims is going to raise a generation of helpless ones.

[Neil]

Neil, I appreciate your view of strong women. You might even see yourself as progressive. But in the scenario you just described, that hypothetical woman was still raped. Then she took her gun to "get revenge," which in the context of this forum makes me assume she shot, maybe killed, her attacker. That's premeditated murder. Now she's facing life in prison, or worse in states that allow the death penalty.

A few things:
- Being raped is more than that moment, that one event. It leads women to question themselves, question the relationships in their life (yes including the men), and even question their own value.

-Also, if a woman is drinking and has a roofie slipped in her drink she may not remember who the attacker is... So there is no one to seek vengeance against with her guns blazing.

-My point is stop using rape to defend gun rights. It's not a gun issue, it's a men's issue (men are overwhelmingly likely to be the perpetrators).

I am 180 degrees from progressive, it is a dirty word to me and an insult.

Hypothetical in your world is real to me.

Armed women are unlikely to have a victim mentality. Rape used to be a capital crime, where I live no woman would ever be convicted for killing a rapist; before, during, or after the assault.

Prevention of rape is very much a gun issue. You just do not understand how cowardly rapists are.

[mnaj_springer]

Mask, I didn't bring up the point about rape, I just wanted to educate people about it. And I've never opposed guns either. I just questioned the status quo which led to people's heads nearly exploding,

Ezzy, you're right. And despite what people here assume, I'm moderate politically, and only a liberal in the classic sense that I believe in the right to property, freedom, and equal rights for all.

That not only is not classical but isn't allowed in the liberal playbook. Probably would be better to educate people that are interested in the subject rather than try to put it in a thread with a completely different subject.

I saw no heads exploding but did see people question your judgment as well they should. Most of us have worked way to hard to try and protect what the constitution gave us because they knew it was needed if we were to protect our rights as well as yours.

Ezzy

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

Also, did you delete one of my replies?

[cjhills]

Neil, I appreciate your view of strong women. You might even see yourself as progressive. But in the scenario you just described, that hypothetical woman was still raped. Then she took her gun to "get revenge," which in the context of this forum makes me assume she shot, maybe killed, her attacker. That's premeditated murder. Now she's facing life in prison, or worse in states that allow the death penalty.

A few things:
- Being raped is more than that moment, that one event. It leads women to question themselves, question the relationships in their life (yes including the men), and even question their own value.

-Also, if a woman is drinking and has a roofie slipped in her drink she may not remember who the attacker is... So there is no one to seek vengeance against with her guns blazing.

-My point is stop using rape to defend gun rights. It's not a gun issue, it's a men's issue (men are overwhelmingly likely to be the perpetrators).

I am 180 degrees from progressive, it is a dirty word to me and an insult.

Hypothetical in your world is real to me.

Armed women are unlikely to have a victim mentality. Rape used to be a capital crime, where I live no woman would ever be convicted for killing a rapist; before, during, or after the assault.

Prevention of rape is very much a gun issue. You just do not understand how cowardly rapists are.

Females have a victim mentality because in rape cases they are victims. Making it their fault because they could not or did not defend themselves is the same as saying they asked for it. If we issued every female a gun when they reached puberty it would prevent very few rapes.
Maybe where you live revenge is a defense for murder, I doubt it and every where else it is not. ...........Cj

[setterpoint]

do you think crime would stop if guns were illegal. that's like saying if there were no spoons no one would be over weight. or trying to blame the car for drunk drivers do people really think that guns are the reason we have crime.

[mnaj_springer]

do you think crime would stop if guns were illegal. that's like saying if there were no spoons no one would be over weight. or trying to blame the car for drunk drivers do people really think that guns are the reason we have crime.

I don't believe anyone here has said that.

[Neil]

do you think crime would stop if guns were illegal. that's like saying if there were no spoons no one would be over weight. or trying to blame the car for drunk drivers do people really think that guns are the reason we have crime.

I don't believe anyone here has said that.

I think it has been said that they don't see a need for handguns and that a woman being armed is not a deterrent to rape.

I talked with some of the strong women I know about what they would do to a rapist that drugged them, one said, "I am 60 years old, I don't have much to lose, I would take him out". A younger one laughed and said, "I would make sure there were no witnesses and claim he assaulted me". Others said mostly the same. One said they were against vigilantism in most other cases. But the real value in being armed was the confidence and sense of security it gave them. One, recently divorced, asked if I would help her get a CCW, so thanks for that.

[mnaj_springer]

do you think crime would stop if guns were illegal. that's like saying if there were no spoons no one would be over weight. or trying to blame the car for drunk drivers do people really think that guns are the reason we have crime.

I don't believe anyone here has said that.

I think it has been said that they don't see a need for handguns and that a woman being armed is not a deterrent to rape.

I talked with some of the strong women I know about what they would do to a rapist that drugged them, one said, "I am 60 years old, I don't have much to lose, I would take him out". A younger one laughed and said, "I would make sure there were no witnesses and claim he assaulted me". Others said mostly the same. One said they were against vigilantism in most other cases. But the real value in being armed was the confidence and sense of security it gave them. One, recently divorced, asked if I would help her get a CCW, so thanks for that.

Who said that about handguns? And I said guns cannot stop every rape, and most likely not even the majority of rapes. But please continue to misread and misquote me.

[ezzy333]

Neil did not say it was you who said it but it was said and I don't remember who, why, or where. And it isn't worth the time to look it up. I would strongly suggest we move on to another topic since you all have done nothing but repeat yourself for the last couple of days and you haven't said a thing that would make anyone change their mind.

Ezzy

[Neil]

Ezzy you are right, but please allow this last response.

To paraphrase the quote of the OP, if women being armed prevents even one rape, I want all that I care about to at least have that chance. Springer, I would be happy for a lot less than a majority prevention.

I will not debate with the hard left, anti-gun; but I hope I can get hunters to understand the value of being armed.

[mnaj_springer]

Shut it down then. I'm sick of saying, "Go back and read." But here I am saying it again.

[cjhills]

Neil did not say it was you who said it but it was said and I don't remember who, why, or where. And it isn't worth the time to look it up. I would strongly suggest we move on to another topic since you all have done nothing but repeat yourself for the last couple of days and you haven't said a thing that would make anyone change their mind.

Ezzy

I doubt anyone posts on here expecting to change anybodies mind. If they do they will be sadly disappointed. We are all pretty set in our thinking. Nobody is 100% right and nobody is 100% wrong. It's all good......................Cj

[Sharon]

I haven't said anything yet.

No armed women up here, but some stats do show that a women being armed lowers the stats on rape happening.( 3600 a day).

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreen ... pes-a-day/

then again:

http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog ... ssociation
....................

The real problem:
Another topic for another kind of forum: Why is the rape of a woman still such a huge problem?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

in support of M Springer:

in USA:
Approximately 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.
73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.
38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.
28% are an intimate

[mnaj_springer]

Thanks for the articles Sharon. Both had good info.

[Sharon]

Thanks for the articles Sharon. Both had good info.

The link I wanted to add but had reached my max.

Who rapes?

https://rainn.org/get-information/stati ... -offenders