You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by volraider » Wed May 23, 2012 2:29 pm

Private schools have the option of not taking the children with discipline problems and not taking the children with low test scores, thus the difference in price and test scores. I am completely against a voucher system unless private schools play by the exact same rules as the public system, which they would never choose to take on. If the public schools had the option of eliminating the bottom of the gene pool I bet those test scores would be a whole lot closer. I have nothing against private schools but the argument about how well they could do with so little is comparing apples to oranges

Nikegundog,

If you had a business and it was having record sells year after year and you had another business that lost money year after year, would you make the better business implement the polices of the business that is losing money? Shouldn't our children mean more to us than some business?

If you have a kid that continually disrupts class day after day, does his right not to get an education override the other 24 kid’s right to get a good education? The number one key for a good education is discipline, without it your schools will not succeed. There is corporal punishment at my children’s school and it starts in K-4 and the funny thing is I never hear of any kid getting a paddling. There are problems but when they arise they are dealt with even if that means being expelled without the ability to return. My kids do not have to worry about gangs in the bathrooms or hallways they are not allowed to walk down.

Vouchers would allow good parents with low income to send their kids to a good school. Money will not fix the schools problem and more money will not help it either. Look at the money spent on education in the last 50 years and the system is still trending down. I see education as a level field where if a kid works hard and learns they can do whatever they want with their life.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by nikegundog » Wed May 23, 2012 2:38 pm

volraider wrote:
Private schools have the option of not taking the children with discipline problems and not taking the children with low test scores, thus the difference in price and test scores. I am completely against a voucher system unless private schools play by the exact same rules as the public system, which they would never choose to take on. If the public schools had the option of eliminating the bottom of the gene pool I bet those test scores would be a whole lot closer. I have nothing against private schools but the argument about how well they could do with so little is comparing apples to oranges

Nikegundog,

If you had a business and it was having record sells year after year and you had another business that lost money year after year, would you make the better business implement the polices of the business that is losing money? Shouldn't our children mean more to us than some business?

If you have a kid that continually disrupts class day after day, does his right not to get an education override the other 24 kid’s right to get a good education? The number one key for a good education is discipline, without it your schools will not succeed. There is corporal punishment at my children’s school and it starts in K-4 and the funny thing is I never hear of any kid getting a paddling. There are problems but when they arise they are dealt with even if that means being expelled without the ability to return. My kids do not have to worry about gangs in the bathrooms or hallways they are not allowed to walk down.

Vouchers would allow good parents with low income to send their kids to a good school. Money will not fix the schools problem and more money will not help it either. Look at the money spent on education in the last 50 years and the system is still trending down. I see education as a level field where if a kid works hard and learns they can do whatever they want with their life.
The problems you mentioned about discipline are real although where private schools can remove these kids public schools by law cannot. Public schools are made to keep these kids in school and doing so is costing thing alot of money. You want to take money away from public schools and give it to private schools that play by a whole nother rulebook. If the private schools want the public schools money then they should be required to play by the same rules, thats all I'm saying.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by volraider » Wed May 23, 2012 2:55 pm

Public schools would lose money but they would also lose students so they wouldn’t need as much money. They could get rid of problem kids today, they have alternative schools set up just for troubled kids. They will not though because they lose the money that is attached to that kid. It’s also political because the more kids in a school the more principles you get to have and the more money you receive. They are not going to cut their own throats, they are just like politicians. With vouchers good teachers would be rewarded and in demand and bad teachers would be looking for a different career. It takes an act of congress to get rid of a tenured teacher.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by nikegundog » Wed May 23, 2012 5:34 pm

volraider wrote:Public schools would lose money but they would also lose students so they wouldn’t need as much money. They could get rid of problem kids today, they have alternative schools set up just for troubled kids. They will not though because they lose the money that is attached to that kid. It’s also political because the more kids in a school the more principles you get to have and the more money you receive. They are not going to cut their own throats, they are just like politicians. With vouchers good teachers would be rewarded and in demand and bad teachers would be looking for a different career. It takes an act of congress to get rid of a tenured teacher.
I believe your confusing vouchers with merit pay which are two totatlly different topics.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Sharon » Wed May 23, 2012 9:02 pm

hunterw/newhobby wrote:I'm a public school teacher, in a good district thank god, so take these comments for what they are worth. I teach science and would love to be able to teach genetics by using examples of kids in my class. if two lazy social welfare abusing people get together and have a kid, usually 5-6 because they make more welfare money, their kid(s) are usually my biggest PIA's. It drives me nuts as a teacher to know that more than likely they will just continue the family tradition. The good news, or at least the news I try to focus on so I dont go nuts, is that sometimes these kids do become productive members of society, some go to college and succeed. The kids that worry me as much if not more are the upper middle class kids whose parents do everything for them and buy them everything under the son. These are the kids that are getting to college and whining about grades, not being fair, blah blah blah. These are the kids that once their parents cut them off after $50-$60,000 spent on various crap that turn into the kinda working poor. So, my parenting advice from a parent and teacher is to not to spoil your kids. It sucks for you later in life. Lastly, the public education system is controlled by politicians trying to get re-elected. they don't let trained educators make educational decisions, they try to make them. My best example: No Child Left Behind. Stupid legislation brought on by Bush 2 (not getting into political debate bc both parties have their individual stupid legislation). NCLB states that every child should be a "B"ish student by this year. In normal talk this means that the special needs child who will never talk, uses a wheelchair, needs assistance to do everything, and just wants to be happy must take a test every year. If this noncommunicative student fails this test it means the school is failing and should be punished. (basic idea of the problem). God forbid trained special education teachers could do their best to at least help this student be happy and maybe learn to communicate a little. One of the saddest things I've seen in education is the frustration students like this go through taking these tests that there is no way they will pass. Should have just stopped when I said I worked in a field ran by politicians.
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I can't imagine what kind of teacher you are with that kind of attitude. All I've ever taught are those "kind of kids" until I graduated to teaching female prisoners.
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by volraider » Wed May 23, 2012 9:38 pm

I believe your confusing vouchers with merit pay which are two totatlly different topics.
No I'm talking about competition. When schools start competing for the good students they will want to hire and retain the best teachers possible. In a open market the good teachers will be the same as any other profession where the better you are the more you get paid. The teachers who show movies twice a week will be looking for a job and the teacher who starts early and stays late trying to get a student caught up will be the ones making the money.. I know of a private school that attracts teachers from everywhere because of what they pay. There is no tenure, no NEA, and the only job security is your work and they will have 1000 applicants for 1 opening.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by nikegundog » Wed May 23, 2012 9:43 pm

volraider wrote:
I believe your confusing vouchers with merit pay which are two totatlly different topics.
No I'm talking about competition. When schools start competing for the good students they will want to hire and retain the best teachers possible. In a open market the good teachers will be the same as any other profession where the better you are the more you get paid. The teachers who show movies twice a week will be looking for a job and the teacher who starts early and stays late trying to get a student caught up will be the ones making the money.. I know of a private school that attracts teachers from everywhere because of what they pay. There is no tenure, no NEA, and the only job security is your work and they will have 1000 applicants for 1 opening.
Again, public schools can't pick and choose the kids they get, hard to compete with a very uneven playing field. Much easier to teach the when you can pick and choose your students.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by gotpointers » Wed May 23, 2012 11:24 pm

nikegundog wrote:
volraider wrote:
I believe your confusing vouchers with merit pay which are two totatlly different topics.
No I'm talking about competition. When schools start competing for the good students they will want to hire and retain the best teachers possible. In a open market the good teachers will be the same as any other profession where the better you are the more you get paid. The teachers who show movies twice a week will be looking for a job and the teacher who starts early and stays late trying to get a student caught up will be the ones making the money.. I know of a private school that attracts teachers from everywhere because of what they pay. There is no tenure, no NEA, and the only job security is your work and they will have 1000 applicants for 1 opening.
Again, public schools can't pick and choose the kids they get, hard to compete with a very uneven playing field. Much easier to teach the when you can pick and choose your students.
My wife is a private school teacher, I know a lot of inside stuff about what goes on there. Olny one kid has been expelled for fighting. They cannot afford to pick and choose students. Also most kids that are acting up have parents that are pretty much adamate about getting what they pay for. A couple calls and emails from her has the parents on the kids butt, and the teamwork usually pays off.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by goatkisser » Thu May 24, 2012 4:33 am

This is a public school within 20 miles of my house, thank God my kids DONT go there....

Make sure you read the entire article.


http://www.tidewaternews.com/2012/05/11 ... t-on-sols/

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by tommyboy72 » Thu May 24, 2012 9:03 am

As long as we are on the subject of messed up education systems, sometimes it isn't the fault of kids or bad parents, sometimes it is the administration and school district. I live in a town of about 1200 people. Half the town is in Texas and half is in Oklahoma. Our school is set up where children attend school from Pre K through 4th grade on the Texas side and 5th through 12th grades on the Oklahoma side. The state of Texas has decided that if there are not 90 in state Texas kids in Pre K- 4th grades this year that they will closing down the elementary next year. Anyone living on the Oklahoma side sending their children to the elementary do not count toward the enrollment of 90 kids. If they close down the Texas side school all Texas children will be bused to Gruver (30 miles away), Sunray (30 miles away), possibly Spearman (50 miles away) depending on who needs kids the most even though we have Stratford, Tx which is only 20 miles away but has no enrollment problem. Those are all one way distances by the way. Luckily I live on the Oklahoma side so I will have the option to send my son to Goodwell, Ok. which is only 10 miles away. Any Texas parents who wish to send their children to Oklahoma schools will pay out of state tuition for them to attend a public school. In turn, without replinishment of the 5th through 12th grades here in town they expect to close the Oklahoma side school within a few years after that. Since the Oklahoma side school had to take out grants last year just to cover the salaries of the administration and teachers this may not be all bad. The bad thing is that 50% of the employment in our town is teachers. If the Texas side school closes then about 25% of the teachers will lose their jobs which will in turn force them to move off for other employment taking their children and families with them further decreasing our population. I have heard through reliable contacts that several businesses like Dollar General, Family Dollar, McDonalds, Subway, among other businesses have wanted to come in here and open up due to the fact mostly that highway 54 going right through town is a major trucking route and travel corridor for vacationers etc. and that we sit right on the Texas/Oklahoma line but that our city council has turned down every business because they do not want the town to grow. Granted these are not huge corporations but we do not have the personnel here to cover these jobs so it would bring people and their families into town to work them and to help with the school issue. The school district has even went as far as to build homes on the Texas side and put in some FEMA trailers for qualified families to move into but I think it is going to be a case of too little too late. This place is going to dry and up and blow away in the next 5 years which is sad since the school district has been open since 1910 and graduating it's first senior class in 1913. Sign of the times I guess.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by volraider » Thu May 24, 2012 9:51 am

Goatkisser,

What bothered me the most about the whole article was the school district that ranked in the top half of the state just hired the superintendent from the district that was 2nd from last. This is good old politics as usual that needs to change. Unless the Franklin district has made strides under this superintendent why would another district hire him.

I coached high school football for 10 years and I have seen the school system up close and personal. We had one teacher that was on his 3rd school in 5 years because of inappropriate relationships with female students. I saw a gay volleyball coach that had her star volleyball player move in with her the day after she graduated from high school. The school system hides these teachers unless it becomes public and charges are filed. They usually move them to an elementary school on the other side of town. I saw a principle at a school dance so drunk he couldn't walk and the list goes on and on, but with tenure and the good old boy system these people continue to be in charge of your children.

I have also saw and had some of what I considered the best teachers in their profession. The good teachers out number the bad by a large margin and they are some of the best people I have ever met. They work their butts off for the same money as the bad ones make.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by dakotashooter2 » Fri May 25, 2012 2:51 pm

nikegundog wrote:Great public school districts here, wouldn't dream of sending my boys to private schools. Welding, automototive, ag, woodshop, metal shop, computer science, the children are only limited by their upbringing which has FAR more to do with the system than the teachers or schools. Put a child that doesn't want to learn in the best classroom and he will fail, not the systems fault.

Many if not most of the school systems around the country have dropped these programs because of budget cuts. Sadly THESE are the programs that put those who could not afford or didn't have the grades to go to college, into the workforce. Now they have nothing. If I were in school today I would go to a trade school rather than college. You will have less debt, get into the workforce faster and in all likelyhood advance in your job as fast or maybe even faster than a college graduate.

Just a note: Our local school has gotten worse under the guidance of the "No child left behind program" than it was prior to the program with the same teachers. And to many parents school isn't there to educate it is there to provide a free daycare service...........

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by DonF » Sat May 26, 2012 5:19 pm

Let me see if I got this right. It took you four years of college to figure out you were getting screwed? Yes I think the system failed you!
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Mountaineer » Sat May 26, 2012 5:52 pm

While the education system has flaws as any giant, multi-dimensional, often public-supported system will, especially one ruled by both unions and parents afraid of consolidation and tax hikes and carrying a focus on sports in lower grades especially, it should be clear that not all colleges or college educations are bad...many are what you make of them....kinda like Life.
But like Life, there are always those who focus on the lemons rather than the lemonade.
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by jkoehler » Wed May 30, 2012 12:46 pm

volraider wrote:I send my kids to a Christian school because I like the learning environment they have. I also believe the number one problem with our school systems is bad parenting and the lack of 2 parent households. Good parents will see that their kids are good students. The second biggest problem is lack of discipline in the school system. The 3rd is 60 to 70 cents of every dollar spent on education is spent on administration so the money is not getting to the kids. The local school system spends $8000 a child to educate them for one year, I pay less than $3000 a child. The average ACT score at my children’s school is a 26 and the average for the school system is a 20. I know that’s flawed because the number of kids tested but I still look at it as a factor. I support school vouchers because I believe competition will create stronger schools, the good teachers will make more money and the bad teachers will be without a job. The government is 15 trillion in debt and that should tell you all you need to know about how they run things.
Volraider - I would agree that Christian or private schools are great, but the only reason they are great is because the parents that send them there care! I am sure if you sent your child to a public school they would be just as successful because you would support and show interest in what your child is doing. Data and research has shown that parents that have an invested interest in their child has success.
$3000 is expensive after you consider your also paying into the public system (not sure how your state does it, but here in Nebraska we have to pay land tax which goes to the local school system) My share is about $3000, so if I had to pay another $3000 I would be spending about $6000. Schools spend about $8000 per student and I can pretty much guarrentee that its not administrative eating that up, but special education and the PT's, OT's, para's and all the other Federal Govt requirements that public schools must abide by. As mentioned before "private" schools do not have that cost since they can deny those students. This battle between private vs. public gets old. I hate hearing from "private" schools that they have the solutions to the public education sector. Until we can solve the poor and uneducated parents that give a darn about their children and we stop giving people free rides then the public school system is going to be what it is and that is take what you want from it, but if your fail blame the school and its teachers.
On another note, the issue with college and debt, there are ways to make it happen. I know people that have the $25,000-$40,000 debts, they chose to go to a certain college and major a certain degree and live in appartments and drive nice cars, I joined the National Guard, went to college, lived in the dorms, rode a bike around town, played college basketball with very small scholarship. I watched what I spent my money on during those years and was lucky to get out of school with no debt. After 5 years I pursued my masters, paying as I went, three years later I got my Specialist again I didn't borrow or put it on a card, I took classes if I could afford it. Did this with three kids and my wife stayed at home to be with them. I love what I do and I have a great job and I know people that went to those high dollar universities while I went to the state college and majored in the same degree and I believe I got the same piece of paper they did in the end.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by volraider » Wed May 30, 2012 6:22 pm

I agree with every word you said! Main streaming kids is a huge cost. I'm for choice and I think choice would improve both school systems.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by deke » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:34 pm

I graduated highschool in 07, did less than 10 hrs of homework all four years combined, and had 112 absent days. I worked two jobs, and hated school,I did enough to pass school and go to work. I never wanted to go to college, never wanted to sit behind a desk and earn a paycheck my whole life. I like working with my hands and my body and there is nothing wrong with that these days.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by birddogger » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:40 pm

deke wrote:I graduated highschool in 07, did less than 10 hrs of homework all four years combined, and had 112 absent days. I worked two jobs, and hated school,I did enough to pass school and go to work. I never wanted to go to college, never wanted to sit behind a desk and earn a paycheck my whole life. I like working with my hands and my body and there is nothing wrong with that these days.
Man can I relate to that! :lol:

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:00 pm

The value of an education, of any level, is most clearly realized when one was is 65 and not 25.

College, done right, is work and reward. :idea:
Done wrong, it is wasted debt and Time.

One problem with our education system is the manner of paying teachers.....locality pay and subject pay should enter the equation along with performance-based rewards.
The other problems flow from teachers, adminstrators, parents, students, communities and selfish politicans.
The last 6 are reluctant to look at the first.
It's far easier to promote a personal agenda and blame...someone.
Or gloat, depending upon the vote of the moment.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by CHJIII » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:01 pm

The failure of our blessed educational system is the fact that "No Child Left Behind" got turned around to mean:


Every Child Pushed Ahead.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by gotpointers » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:02 am

CHJIII wrote:The failure of our blessed educational system is the fact that "No Child Left Behind" got turned around to mean:


Every Child Pushed Ahead.
Lol!

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by bonasa » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:04 pm

There are pros and cons with the education system, mostly it falls on the parents lack of teaching as it isn't a free daycare. Its perfectly fine not to go to college if you believe it will fail you in the long run. It's your choice to not educate yourself and yours alone. There are plenty of people that didn't go to school and became extremely wealthy as there are those that went through years of school earned a Phd , but can't find a job and have hundreds of thousand of dollars in debt. There is no right or wrong way. Do the best you can do and don't let your family down or your country either.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by gotpointers » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:26 am

bonasa wrote:There are pros and cons with the education system, mostly it falls on the parents lack of teaching as it isn't a free daycare. Its perfectly fine not to go to college if you believe it will fail you in the long run. It's your choice to not educate yourself and yours alone. There are plenty of people that didn't go to school and became extremely wealthy as there are those that went through years of school earned a Phd , but can't find a job and have hundreds of thousand of dollars in debt. There is no right or wrong way. Do the best you can do and don't let your family down or your country either.
I would have to agree with you completely.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by jcbuttry8 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:55 am

Let's not get to carried away with how its all the parents fault. I think a lot ties into it. When I was growing up, my mom was home everyday. She helped with what she could. My dad worked 12 hours a day. Now almost every family has to have two incomes. Makes a big difference.

My kids are still in school, There last day is next Wednesday. Our teachers have been on strike for 3 1/2 weeks between two walkouts. They posted all of their salaries in the paper two weeks ago. The majority are making six figures with a total package. I don't have a problem with that, but they want more. I believe to the sum of 20 or 30 mil over the next 6 years. I sure would like to know where that money is coming from? The state won't pay it. I wish I could demand more money even though my numbers have dropped significantly over the past few years.

Because of all of this they choose not to work with the parents of the children. If I need to speak to a teacher about my son I have to make an appointment. It can be tough to meet a teacher at 11:20 in the morning shockingly enough we too have jobs. They refuse to stay after or offer any support unless it is on their terms. Last time I checked, the kids were supposed to be the important ones. At the parents night when my children went back to school, all the parents showed up but not one teacher was there. What is the point in getting us there if the teachers wont show up?

Yes, I will admit that parents today are lacking in a sense, but I don't see it being because they don't care, not all of them anyway. There are only so many hours in a day. Everyone's expectations should be somewhat realistic.

Joe

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by tommyboy72 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:28 am

Wow looks like I should have gotten into the teaching racket. I bet my buddy Dave, Chiefdog, from this site would not have given up teaching and coaching wrestling and football after 16 years if he was making that much with a full benefits package out here.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by birddogger » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:10 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:Wow looks like I should have gotten into the teaching racket. I bet my buddy Dave, Chiefdog, from this site would not have given up teaching and coaching wrestling and football after 16 years if he was making that much with a full benefits package out here.
I work with at least 3 people that I know of that have a bachelor's degree in teaching who are making less money than I am. They can't seem to find teaching jobs. :o Although a couple of them are working part time as assistants or substitutes.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by volraider » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:06 pm

The elementary music teacher and elementary P.E. teacher making over $98,000 a year is a joke and they are on walkout for more money. The hours they put in is about equal to a part time job when you count in holidays, summer vacation, and snow days.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by JKP » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:14 pm

I think that Schools like Northeastern University that pioneered the work/study programs could be an answer....only start it much earlier. Kids need the satisfaction of "doing" and being successful. Kids need to work...or gain practical experience...to have a sense of where they are going...why they are working...or just some basic pride in some real achievement.

Had two tandems of stone delivered to my camp the other day...to spread on the parking area. An 18 year old did a perfect job with his Bobcat in about an hour....perfectly shaped, bit of a slope for proper drainage away from the house, etc. I am sure the kid could brush his teeth with that machine...as good as he handled himself. I handed him a check. I know his father and know that the young man will have to pay his father for the machine amortization, maintenance/overhead, and direct costs. His father is teaching him a business and I have no doubt that he will earn more than many of our college graduates and get more satisfaction from it.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Sharon » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:56 pm

In Ontario an experienced teacher makes $33.00 an hour + an excellent pension plan, and fully paid health care.
I went to University 8 years to earn that kind of money.
x2 to whoever said that "you appreciate it more when you are 65".
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by jcbuttry8 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:20 pm

Sharon wrote:In Ontario an experienced teacher makes $33.00 an hour + an excellent pension plan, and fully paid health care.
I went to University 8 years to earn that kind of money.
x2 to whoever said that "you appreciate it more when you are 65".
I am happy that you did make such a great salary. I have a real problem with the whole tenure. Sorry if I step on toes, but some teachers, not all, tend to get lax when they reach that milestone, and the unions aren't helping. I was unhappy to here that the school board laid off several teachers right before the last strike and they were the youngest and from what I saw some of the best that we had. They used the home page to let parents know their kids grades and homework that was due and when it was due. If they saw an issue with your child, they emailed right away and gave you a heads up. The others couldn't be bothered to let you know anything unless your kid had already fallen way behind.

Again, not all of them are bad, but come on 30 million in 5 years. Realistic expectations are the only way to get realistic results. Until then my kids get to go to school until July.

Joe

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:57 pm

Tenure was never meant to be used for grade and high school teachers. The purpose was to preserve a University professors job if he took tume off to write. Just another good idea gone bad.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by CHJIII » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:11 pm

volraider wrote:The elementary music teacher and elementary P.E. teacher making over $98,000 a year is a joke and they are on walkout for more money. The hours they put in is about equal to a part time job when you count in holidays, summer vacation, and snow days.
All I can say is wow! I've been teaching for 18 years and my salary doesn't even hit the $40k. that's some major disparity!

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by volraider » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:19 pm

Here's the PA website for teacher pay.

http://php.app.com/PAteachers/results.p ... mit=Search

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by CHJIII » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:23 pm

volraider wrote:Here's the PA website for teacher pay.

http://php.app.com/PAteachers/results.p ... mit=Search
Oh I believed you! When I left St. Louis to move out here I took a $20k pay hit. Gee how I miss those gangs and guns.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Sharon » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:58 pm

jcbuttry8 wrote:
Sharon wrote:In Ontario an experienced teacher makes $33.00 an hour + an excellent pension plan, and fully paid health care.
I went to University 8 years to earn that kind of money.
x2 to whoever said that "you appreciate it more when you are 65".
I am happy that you did make such a great salary. I have a real problem with the whole tenure. Sorry if I step on toes, but some teachers, not all, tend to get lax when they reach that milestone, and the unions aren't helping. I was unhappy to here that the school board laid off several teachers right before the last strike and they were the youngest and from what I saw some of the best that we had. They used the home page to let parents know their kids grades and homework that was due and when it was due. If they saw an issue with your child, they emailed right away and gave you a heads up. The others couldn't be bothered to let you know anything unless your kid had already fallen way behind.

Again, not all of them are bad, but come on 30 million in 5 years. Realistic expectations are the only way to get realistic results. Until then my kids get to go to school until July. Joe quote

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

New teachers looking for a job and older teachers not wanting to retire before 65 has always been a sore spot. There is no answer really.It's common in many professiona. In ON a new teacher is on a temporary contract for 2 years- many quit or are dismissed during that time period. The attrition rate ( quitting ) of new teachers is high. They never knew they would have to work that hard to prepare for 30 kids learning 8 hours a day x5.
There is still a place for we old folks. :) I retired last year after working at a 450 inmate Detention centre for 20 years. They haven't been able to replace me yet. Not a place for a young pretty girl or a young handsome boy. 8)

PS Layoffs always start from the bottom of the seniority list. Is there any other way to do it.?

PPS The $33.00 dollars an hour was before deductions.
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by tommyboy72 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:15 pm

CHJIII wrote:
volraider wrote:Oh I believed you! When I left St. Louis to move out here I took a $20k pay hit. Gee how I miss those gangs and gun.
Great, I am seriously considering moving my family to the Troy, Mo. area right outside St. Louis. Just what I wanted to hear about the gangs and guns. :lol:

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by twofeathers » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:29 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:Great, I am seriously considering moving my family to the Troy, Mo. area right outside St. Louis. Just what I wanted to hear about the gangs and guns. :lol:
Lived in Troy for a couple of years met my wife there. Nice place to live plenty far from St.Louis, Qiuver River state park is beautiful and decent schooling there.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by gotpointers » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:14 am

CHJIII wrote:
volraider wrote:The elementary music teacher and elementary P.E. teacher making over $98,000 a year is a joke and they are on walkout for more money. The hours they put in is about equal to a part time job when you count in holidays, summer vacation, and snow days.
All I can say is wow! I've been teaching for 18 years and my salary doesn't even hit the $40k. that's some major disparity!
My wife has her masters degree in elementary education. And a bachelors in sociology, her teaching job doesent break the 40k either. Its ok with her she loves the work and said even if we were multi millionares she would still teach school and donate her salary back. Me however i would take up beer drinking, hunting and messing with dogs fulltime :D

Joe i don't know the number of teachers yearly salary that millions of dollars includes.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by CHJIII » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:43 am

tommyboy72 wrote:
CHJIII wrote:
volraider wrote:Oh I believed you! When I left St. Louis to move out here I took a $20k pay hit. Gee how I miss those gangs and gun.
Great, I am seriously considering moving my family to the Troy, Mo. area right outside St. Louis. Just what I wanted to hear about the gangs and guns. :lol:
You'd have no wories around Troy. Used to be some birds up that way around Eolia and Silex.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by tommyboy72 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:06 am

twofeathers wrote:
tommyboy72 wrote:Great, I am seriously considering moving my family to the Troy, Mo. area right outside St. Louis. Just what I wanted to hear about the gangs and guns. :lol:
Lived in Troy for a couple of years met my wife there. Nice place to live plenty far from St.Louis, Qiuver River state park is beautiful and decent schooling there.
That's where all my family is from- the Troy and Elsberry areas. I never grew up around my family. Dad was in the military so we moved a lot and when he got out we lived far away but I spent summers and holidays there. My parents, aunts, uncles, granparents, everyone are from there. Now that I have a family of my own and the job market, economy, a huge influx of illegals, bad schools, etc. are going on out here in the panhandle of Oklahoma I have pretty much made up my mind to move to this area unless the job I want takes me elsewhere. We are sort of in a holding pattern until I hear back from the company I am trying to get on with, one way or the other. Thanks for the info. though.

To stay on topic, here is another story I read showing some issues with the education systems as well. Lack of care for the children's well being. Good thing this wasn't one of my kids.

http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/kids-c ... z1zyi4wGbc#_=_

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by bonasa » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:23 pm

Seems to be a lot of people are going on about how much teachers earn. Teachers in the NY area paid their dues. Earning a masters degree isn't cheap, nor is taking a 2, 3 or 4 year job in a city such as Albany/NYC or such places attempting to teach kids that do not want to be there and do not want to see you there, before you can get a job in a district you want which could be 7hours away. Money isn't the measurement of a person ,if it is just embellish how much you make to the rest of the board and you will feel better. We all are totally capable of becoming a P.E. teacher with a "part time" job earning 98K. Some of us just chose not to go that route and earned what we have become. If you personally are not satisfied of what you became, it's on you to change it and do something about it. Lets not pass judgement on legitimate working individuals earning a salary because of their own personal aspirations.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by volraider » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:42 pm

Seems to be a lot of people are going on about how much teachers earn. Teachers in the NY area paid their dues. Earning a masters degree isn't cheap, nor is taking a 2, 3 or 4 year job in a city such as Albany/NYC or such places attempting to teach kids that do not want to be there and do not want to see you there, before you can get a job in a district you want which could be 7hours away. Money isn't the measurement of a person ,if it is just embellish how much you make to the rest of the board and you will feel better. We all are totally capable of becoming a P.E. teacher with a "part time" job earning 98K. Some of us just chose not to go that route and earned what we have become. If you personally are not satisfied of what you became, it's on you to change it and do something about it. Lets not pass judgement on legitimate working individuals earning a salary because of their own personal aspirations.
I agree with everything you just said for the private sector jobs, BUT when taxpayers pay someone $98,000 to babysit kids playing kickball I draw the line. If you work for the government then as a taxpayer I have every right to complain about your wages. Can you justify paying a plumber with a master degree twice what you would pay another plumber for the same job?

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by bonasa » Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:44 am

Sounds like you want everyone to be equal and earn the same regardless of location, education or skill set involved in accomplishing the task at hand?

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by CHJIII » Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:17 am

bonasa wrote:Sounds like you want everyone to be equal and earn the same regardless of location, education or skill set involved in accomplishing the task at hand?
So I teach 7th & 8th Grade Science and High School Anat./Phys. & Environmental Science in rural Mo.. Should I be paid less than someone in New York? Trying to figure out where the location part of the equation fits in.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by BigShooter » Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:34 am

CHJIII wrote:
bonasa wrote:Sounds like you want everyone to be equal and earn the same regardless of location, education or skill set involved in accomplishing the task at hand?
So I teach 7th & 8th Grade Science and High School Anat./Phys. & Environmental Science in rural Mo.. Should I be paid less than someone in New York? Trying to figure out where the location part of the equation fits in.
The cost of living, the cost of housing and hence all salaries, vary greatly by location.
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by volraider » Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:22 pm

Bonasa,

I don't think all teachers should be paid equally. Why should a elementary PE teacher make more than a high school math teacher? Which job requires more knowledge? I consider elementary positions as entry level jobs. Does it require a Masters to teach kids 1+3=4? In the real world (private sector) you are paid based on job qualifications, if you start out as a helper (elementary teacher) you are paid as a helper until you top out at helper pay. IF you wish to make more money then you apply for the next level(middle school) and so on until you reach the top which to me would be a college professor. At the company I work for we have people in entry level jobs with college degrees and they make the same as the guy with the GED, NOW in the future the GED guy is going to reach his earning potential and the college guy may go into management to make more money. Sometimes the college grad has a sorry work ethic and doesn't make it while the GED guy ends up in Management.

By the way I think teachers are called to be teachers much like pastors. I think some of the best roll models I ever had was teachers and until this day I'm thankful for them.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by bonasa » Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:36 pm

I never said everyone should be paid equal regardless of location/education/skill. I was responding to :

Can you justify paying a plumber with a master degree twice what you would pay another plumber for the same job? Doesnt that sound like the poster wants everyone to make the same?

Sounds like that poster wants the apprentice to be paid the same as a master plumber! I am all for earning what you get and I believe that the distribution of wages is more than fair. A lot of people complain about wages, unions, pension system but are not in them and don't know the difference.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by volraider » Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:23 pm

I say you pay for the job being performed. $98,000 for a elementary P.E. teacher, do you think this is proper use of tax dollars?

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Sage » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:51 pm

Out here in Northern Ca my school is taking out our gym and locker rooms and replacing it with a $100,000 brand new gym and lockerrooms...when there is absolutly nothing wrong with the ones we have but yet they are cutting all the good teachers right and left and keep giving us subs that last a week after they say they wont go anywhere. at least thats how the teachers were last year maybe this year will be different. But I irritates me that they are spending all that money on something we dont need and I asked one of the teachers why they are doing that and the teacher said for bragging rights and to show off to the other schools.
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by DougB » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:11 pm

volraider wrote:I say you pay for the job being performed. $98,000 for a elementary P.E. teacher, do you think this is proper use of tax dollars?
Works out to about $20/day/pupil, given about 25 students per class. About $2.50 per hour. Cheaper than baby sitters. And seeing as the teacher is probably extremely well educated and experienced (probably maxed out on the pay scale), it seems like a real bargain. Also, not many teachers last that long. About half leave the field in the first 5 years, to make real money. And a sports pro or actor makes millions per year.

My wife retired from teaching public schools. Wasn't even close to $98000. She had a problem dealing with students transfering from private to her public school when the parents would find out that the private schools weren't doing the job. Students getting A's and B'S BUT NOT READING OR DOING MATH EVEN CLOSE TO GRADE LEVEL.
Grade inflation to draw students and dollars. State testing for all students should be required.
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