You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

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Stoneface
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You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Stoneface » Fri May 18, 2012 7:24 pm

I got this on a recommendation from my graduate admissions counselor. Our system sucks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuEOOCTmR-k
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by jcbuttry8 » Sat May 19, 2012 6:28 pm

just put three kids through the public school system and you will know why.

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Stoneface
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Stoneface » Sat May 19, 2012 9:49 pm

I'll tell you, I think college, for most majors, is the biggest rip off around. We need people who will take up the non-upper level positions. We need factory workers and such and there's nothing wrong with that. Our workforce is not evenly distributed.

My brother just graduated from high school two years ago, this month. I was working on the pickup a while back and asked him to hand me a 3/8 socket on a 1/4" rachet. He insisted it wouldn't fit. I pulled out from under the pickup and put it right on, just like every other socket I've put on a rachet. He was putting it on backwards. He's applying for college (he has a basketball scholarship waiting for him) and came to me, at 21-years-old, and asked how to fill it out. He said he's never filled one out before. But, yeah, he can tell me what a matrix is and what a nucleus is and can show me some neat stuff he learned in art class, but what good is that in the real world?

Our schools need to be more practical. Stryker is NOT college material. He should be able to go if he wants to, but he doesn't. Nothing wrong with that and society should quit pushing kids to go to college, like you're going to be a failure without it. High school kids need to know reading, writing, math, political science and history because those things come in handy when you're out of high school, but beyond that we should have more home ec, welding, computer science (we may have more computer science, I've been out of school for awhile), auto mechanics, basic handy-man skills like fixing a leaky faucet and fixing a broken window, credit scores, personal finance, etc. I took a finance class in high school and it was peathetic, just basically taught us how to do a basic budget and balance a check book, that was it.

Just my two cents.
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by seacowboy » Sun May 20, 2012 2:03 am

Totally agree with you stone.

My step son is 14 and finishing his 8th grade year up now. I have been shocked at the system now. They have lowered the grading scale significantly. A 'F' is now 9% lower at 60% and they are allowed to retake tests and quizzes. Wtf? If they had that system back when I was in school I would have had straight A's. Even most all homework can be turned in late for the same credit days later. It is insane. This is teaching some, not all of our kids to be totally slackers. Can tell you one thing, when my kids get to school they will not have this crap. No retakes or late work turned in, do it right the first time and on time. Tv and computers will be limited greatly with lessons from dad around the house and in the woods!

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by nikegundog » Sun May 20, 2012 8:24 am

Great public school districts here, wouldn't dream of sending my boys to private schools. Welding, automototive, ag, woodshop, metal shop, computer science, the children are only limited by their upbringing which has FAR more to do with the system than the teachers or schools. Put a child that doesn't want to learn in the best classroom and he will fail, not the systems fault.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Mike50 » Sun May 20, 2012 10:03 am

I respect any person that can do a job and do it well. That being said it drives me up a wall when I'm behind a school bus that is waiting for a student that is not even there. Kids still in the house getting his shoes on or what ever. Are we raising a bunch of slackers. Bend the rules a little more then see what the work force is going to be like.
I had a young man fresh out of high school work for me. His first and last week he was late twice. I told him 40 hours is 40 hours not 35 hours. Thank you and good by. He got paid for 35 end of rant.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by cstokes/southeast,ks » Sun May 20, 2012 1:51 pm

nikegundog wrote:Great public school districts here, wouldn't dream of sending my boys to private schools. Welding, automototive, ag, woodshop, metal shop, computer science, the children are only limited by their upbringing which has FAR more to do with the system than the teachers or schools. Put a child that doesn't want to learn in the best classroom and he will fail, not the systems fault.

Very well said +1

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by ezzy333 » Sun May 20, 2012 2:12 pm

There are a host of problems but they all start at home. Till that changes our schools don't have a chance.

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Post by Stoneface » Sun May 20, 2012 3:45 pm

I've just finished my fourth year of college as of Thursday. It's rediculous. I feel like I should sue (and have been inclined to!) the college for false advertisement for the claims to a "quality education." My speech instructor sat in front of the class - and I'm not exagerating - and read the test to us the Wednesday before the Friday test. She gave us the question, let us right it down, gave us the page number and the paragraph. Then she let us use open book. I couldn't believe it! Now, ready for the real shocker? I know kids who flunked that class!

This semester, at the highest level undergraduate management class offered by the school, we had tests with questions like, "what is an entrepreneur?" or "what is a competitive advantage?" My MIS class (business computer use) had all our tests/quizzes online. NO ONE fails an online exam because they are standardized. It works like this: a textbook publisher publishes a book, ready-made presentations and ready-made test/quiz questions and answers that all go to the instructor. The instructor has a big pool of test questions, say 50-75 questions, they post to the school's cirriculum network, where the students can check their grades, take tests, electronically turn in assignments (I can't remember the last time I turned an actual paper into an instructor), etc. The test software in the system automatically randomizes the questions that will be drawn from the pool of questions and given on the test. So, with this standardization, all you have to do is copy the question, punch it into Google and you find website after website with a list of all the questions in the pool and all the correct answers. Not only that, but several classes (like an upper-level Quality Management class I just finished) will let you RETAKE TESTS AS MANY TIMES AS YOU LIKE!!! So, you take a test four times, everytime you finish a test it tells you which ones you got right and wrong and gives you the correct answer, you copy and paste that info into a Word document then retake the test again. By retake number three you'll usually have a 90%-100%. If you don't, you're a flaming retard. Ready for another kicker? About a quarter of all instructors give you untimed tests. My Labor & Employment Law instructor gave us ten question tests, once a week, and they were untimed. You could spend six days, 23 hours, 59 minutes and 59 seconds on the test because it was due by a deadline. And, if you started the test and got bored after a little while, not biggie - just save the test and finish it in a few days.

Then we have Finance and Algebra tests that you take on a scantron (this is a scantron: http://friendsoftheprogram.net/wp-conte ... m882ES.gif ). You fill in the bubble for the corresponding correct answer for that question. For example, if the answer is B for number one, then on the scantron, next to "1", you fill in "B". The reason for scantrons is because the instructor can take them upstairs and run them through a machine - reminds me of the machine that counts money at the bank - and they are all graded in less than a minute. And, if you do take a test in-class you'll have about four tests over the course of a semester and the THEY DROP YOUR LOWEST TEST GRADE!!!!!

Another thing. The isntructors/professors are almost apologetic half the time. The MIS instructor actually asked what we liked about the test, what we wanted to see more of, would true/false be better than multiple choice, etc. When I was a preaching major two years ago one instructor, on the last day of classes, made an announcement that some students were missing even the first assignment and they better get it in by the time grades are due if they want full credit for it.

And high schools! My brother was allowed to text in class, as long as he didn't disturb anyone. At the end of one school year he was going to flunk so all his teachers gave him enough extra credit (you ought to have seen what they assigned for this so-called "extra credit"! More like "voucher for points") to pass.

Here's what I think. Our system sucks. I'm buying a $35,000 piece of paper. That's it. If any of your guys' kids flunk high school or college, do them a favor; take them behind the wood shed and beat them about the head and body! The only reason for flunking a class in today's American education system is a total, absolute and utter lack of effort. If you show up and turn in blank piece of paper with your name on it, you're going to at least pass.

With out scores and rankings at the level they are on this site, how long do you think we and our economies will remain major competitors on the global level? http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... ce-reading

I was talking to one of just four instructors who put out effort and who required students to actaully apply themselves. He said that after twenty five years of teaching college he's seen a radical twist in attitude of students. When he started teaching, students would fail and say, "Maybe I should have studied a little harder." Now they say, "If you were a better teacher,I would have passed. Can I retake the test or have some extra credit? Do you drop a test score?"

I have to admit, my grades have slipped the past year. I got to the university level and no one seemed to car. I finished my Associates degrees with all kinds of recognition and was gung ho when I bumped up to the four-year level. I just lost my gusto when I saw the instructor and professors really don't give and "bleep" and have no inclination to teach you anything. Until this past semester I rarely received less than an A and, if I did get a B, it was the only B I'd received for that semester. This past fall I got four Bs and an A. This semester I got my first C. I didn't come to college for the piece of paper, I came because I wanted to learn and wanted to be a great business man. One instructor summed it up when he asked all of us who came to school for the education to raise our hands. When half the class raised our hands he said, " Well, now I know how many liars I have in my class."
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Sharon » Sun May 20, 2012 6:20 pm

nikegundog wrote:Great public school districts here, wouldn't dream of sending my boys to private schools. Welding, automototive, ag, woodshop, metal shop, computer science, the children are only limited by their upbringing which has FAR more to do with the system than the teachers or schools. Put a child that doesn't want to learn in the best classroom and he will fail, not the systems fault.
Well said. ( The home has a greater impact on any child, rather than the school.)
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Post by Sharon » Sun May 20, 2012 6:26 pm

Stoneface wrote:I've just finished my fourth year of college as of Thursday. It's rediculous. I feel like I should sue (and have been inclined to!) the college for false advertisement for the claims to a "quality education." My speech instructor sat in front of the class - and I'm not exagerating - and read the test to us the Wednesday before the Friday test. She gave us the question, let us right it down, gave us the page number and the paragraph. Then she let us use open book. I couldn't believe it! Now, ready for the real shocker? I know kids who flunked that class!

This semester, at the highest level undergraduate management class offered by the school, we had tests with questions like, "what is an entrepreneur?" or "what is a competitive advantage?" My MIS class (business computer use) had all our tests/quizzes online. NO ONE fails an online exam because they are standardized. It works like this: a textbook publisher publishes a book, ready-made presentations and ready-made test/quiz questions and answers that all go to the instructor. The instructor has a big pool of test questions, say 50-75 questions, they post to the school's cirriculum network, where the students can check their grades, take tests, electronically turn in assignments (I can't remember the last time I turned an actual paper into an instructor), etc. The test software in the system automatically randomizes the questions that will be drawn from the pool of questions and given on the test. So, with this standardization, all you have to do is copy the question, punch it into Google and you find website after website with a list of all the questions in the pool and all the correct answers. Not only that, but several classes (like an upper-level Quality Management class I just finished) will let you RETAKE TESTS AS MANY TIMES AS YOU LIKE!!! So, you take a test four times, everytime you finish a test it tells you which ones you got right and wrong and gives you the correct answer, you copy and paste that info into a Word document then retake the test again. By retake number three you'll usually have a 90%-100%. If you don't, you're a flaming retard. Ready for another kicker? About a quarter of all instructors give you untimed tests. My Labor & Employment Law instructor gave us ten question tests, once a week, and they were untimed. You could spend six days, 23 hours, 59 minutes and 59 seconds on the test because it was due by a deadline. And, if you started the test and got bored after a little while, not biggie - just save the test and finish it in a few days.

Then we have Finance and Algebra tests that you take on a scantron (this is a scantron: http://friendsoftheprogram.net/wp-conte ... m882ES.gif ). You fill in the bubble for the corresponding correct answer for that question. For example, if the answer is B for number one, then on the scantron, next to "1", you fill in "B". The reason for scantrons is because the instructor can take them upstairs and run them through a machine - reminds me of the machine that counts money at the bank - and they are all graded in less than a minute. And, if you do take a test in-class you'll have about four tests over the course of a semester and the THEY DROP YOUR LOWEST TEST GRADE!!!!!

Another thing. The isntructors/professors are almost apologetic half the time. The MIS instructor actually asked what we liked about the test, what we wanted to see more of, would true/false be better than multiple choice, etc. When I was a preaching major two years ago one instructor, on the last day of classes, made an announcement that some students were missing even the first assignment and they better get it in by the time grades are due if they want full credit for it.

And high schools! My brother was allowed to text in class, as long as he didn't disturb anyone. At the end of one school year he was going to flunk so all his teachers gave him enough extra credit (you ought to have seen what they assigned for this so-called "extra credit"! More like "voucher for points") to pass.

Here's what I think. Our system sucks. I'm buying a $35,000 piece of paper. That's it. If any of your guys' kids flunk high school or college, do them a favor; take them behind the wood shed and beat them about the head and body! The only reason for flunking a class in today's American education system is a total, absolute and utter lack of effort. If you show up and turn in blank piece of paper with your name on it, you're going to at least pass.

With out scores and rankings at the level they are on this site, how long do you think we and our economies will remain major competitors on the global level? http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... ce-reading

I was talking to one of just four instructors who put out effort and who required students to actaully apply themselves. He said that after twenty five years of teaching college he's seen a radical twist in attitude of students. When he started teaching, students would fail and say, "Maybe I should have studied a little harder." Now they say, "If you were a better teacher,I would have passed. Can I retake the test or have some extra credit? Do you drop a test score?"

I have to admit, my grades have slipped the past year. I got to the university level and no one seemed to car. I finished my Associates degrees with all kinds of recognition and was gung ho when I bumped up to the four-year level. I just lost my gusto when I saw the instructor and professors really don't give and "bleep" and have no inclination to teach you anything. Until this past semester I rarely received less than an A and, if I did get a B, it was the only B I'd received for that semester. This past fall I got four Bs and an A. This semester I got my first C. I didn't come to college for the piece of paper, I came because I wanted to learn and wanted to be a great business man. One instructor summed it up when he asked all of us who came to school for the education to raise our hands. When half the class raised our hands he said, " Well, now I know how many liars I have in my class."

As a teacher of 45 years there is so much I could say about your post. I guess you're a self made man. :)
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Stoneface
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Stoneface » Sun May 20, 2012 9:18 pm

Sharon, I don't know what that means, but I didn't finish high school. I almost finished tenth grade then took my GED. In early 2008, when I decided to start working towards school in Fall, 2008, I went into a tutoring program offered at the local career center by the state. Took the ACT and scraped by with a composite 20. It was that I didn't know the stuff, I'm just not fast. Ran out of time on every segment of the test! Haha. Been that way ever since; I am the guy scrambling to finish the last couple of questions when the instructor calls time.

When I started college I was almost 23 and heck bent on doing a good job. Still made a lot of excuses and thought "the man" was out to get "the little guy" because that's what my whole family believed. Two instructors got ahold of me and taught me to quit b*****n' and deal with it. Turns out all those times the adults told me life wasn't fair, they weren't lying!

By the way, as far as I'm concerned a quality teacher is deserving of saint status. It's the school system that hinders them and enables the free loading teachers to add to the screwing of the system.
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Thinking » Mon May 21, 2012 5:44 am

As others have said, blame the parents and the home life, not the schools. Often schools and standards have slipped as a result of parental intervention on behalf of the kids. It's not the solely the job of the school to install work ethic, respect, a sense of responsibility and a desire to do well in a child, that's the parents job as well.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Greg Jennings » Mon May 21, 2012 6:49 am

I am confident in saying that my college education was challenging and well rounded. It prepared me well for my career and life in general. Without it, I would have been a lost ball in the tall grass.

I wasn't as well prepared by high school for college. That, however, was my fault, not the school system. I was more interested in hunting, fishing, frog-gigging and muscle cars. The first year of college was rough. After that, I got my act together. By the time I graduated, it was pretty easy. Well, except for Dr. Cook's Quantum Mechanics class. That was agony.

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Re: Re:

Post by ultracarry » Mon May 21, 2012 7:48 am

Sharon wrote:
Stoneface wrote:I've just finished my fourth year of college as of Thursday. It's rediculous. I feel like I should sue (and have been inclined to!) the college for false advertisement for the claims to a "quality education." My speech instructor sat in front of the class - and I'm not exagerating - and read the test to us the Wednesday before the Friday test. She gave us the question, let us right it down, gave us the page number and the paragraph. Then she let us use open book. I couldn't believe it! Now, ready for the real shocker? I know kids who flunked that class!

This semester, at the highest level undergraduate management class offered by the school, we had tests with questions like, "what is an entrepreneur?" or "what is a competitive advantage?" My MIS class (business computer use) had all our tests/quizzes online. NO ONE fails an online exam because they are standardized. It works like this: a textbook publisher publishes a book, ready-made presentations and ready-made test/quiz questions and answers that all go to the instructor. The instructor has a big pool of test questions, say 50-75 questions, they post to the school's cirriculum network, where the students can check their grades, take tests, electronically turn in assignments (I can't remember the last time I turned an actual paper into an instructor), etc. The test software in the system automatically randomizes the questions that will be drawn from the pool of questions and given on the test. So, with this standardization, all you have to do is copy the question, punch it into Google and you find website after website with a list of all the questions in the pool and all the correct answers. Not only that, but several classes (like an upper-level Quality Management class I just finished) will let you RETAKE TESTS AS MANY TIMES AS YOU LIKE!!! So, you take a test four times, everytime you finish a test it tells you which ones you got right and wrong and gives you the correct answer, you copy and paste that info into a Word document then retake the test again. By retake number three you'll usually have a 90%-100%. If you don't, you're a flaming retard. Ready for another kicker? About a quarter of all instructors give you untimed tests. My Labor & Employment Law instructor gave us ten question tests, once a week, and they were untimed. You could spend six days, 23 hours, 59 minutes and 59 seconds on the test because it was due by a deadline. And, if you started the test and got bored after a little while, not biggie - just save the test and finish it in a few days.

Then we have Finance and Algebra tests that you take on a scantron (this is a scantron: http://friendsoftheprogram.net/wp-conte ... m882ES.gif ). You fill in the bubble for the corresponding correct answer for that question. For example, if the answer is B for number one, then on the scantron, next to "1", you fill in "B". The reason for scantrons is because the instructor can take them upstairs and run them through a machine - reminds me of the machine that counts money at the bank - and they are all graded in less than a minute. And, if you do take a test in-class you'll have about four tests over the course of a semester and the THEY DROP YOUR LOWEST TEST GRADE!!!!!

Another thing. The isntructors/professors are almost apologetic half the time. The MIS instructor actually asked what we liked about the test, what we wanted to see more of, would true/false be better than multiple choice, etc. When I was a preaching major two years ago one instructor, on the last day of classes, made an announcement that some students were missing even the first assignment and they better get it in by the time grades are due if they want full credit for it.

And high schools! My brother was allowed to text in class, as long as he didn't disturb anyone. At the end of one school year he was going to flunk so all his teachers gave him enough extra credit (you ought to have seen what they assigned for this so-called "extra credit"! More like "voucher for points") to pass.

Here's what I think. Our system sucks. I'm buying a $35,000 piece of paper. That's it. If any of your guys' kids flunk high school or college, do them a favor; take them behind the wood shed and beat them about the head and body! The only reason for flunking a class in today's American education system is a total, absolute and utter lack of effort. If you show up and turn in blank piece of paper with your name on it, you're going to at least pass.

With out scores and rankings at the level they are on this site, how long do you think we and our economies will remain major competitors on the global level? http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... ce-reading

I was talking to one of just four instructors who put out effort and who required students to actaully apply themselves. He said that after twenty five years of teaching college he's seen a radical twist in attitude of students. When he started teaching, students would fail and say, "Maybe I should have studied a little harder." Now they say, "If you were a better teacher,I would have passed. Can I retake the test or have some extra credit? Do you drop a test score?"

I have to admit, my grades have slipped the past year. I got to the university level and no one seemed to car. I finished my Associates degrees with all kinds of recognition and was gung ho when I bumped up to the four-year level. I just lost my gusto when I saw the instructor and professors really don't give and "bleep" and have no inclination to teach you anything. Until this past semester I rarely received less than an A and, if I did get a B, it was the only B I'd received for that semester. This past fall I got four Bs and an A. This semester I got my first C. I didn't come to college for the piece of paper, I came because I wanted to learn and wanted to be a great business man. One instructor summed it up when he asked all of us who came to school for the education to raise our hands. When half the class raised our hands he said, " Well, now I know how many liars I have in my class."

As a teacher of 45 years there is so much I could say about your post. I guess you're a self made man. :)
Pretty funny post Sharon.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by AzDoggin » Mon May 21, 2012 8:37 am

nikegundog wrote:Great public school districts here, wouldn't dream of sending my boys to private schools. Welding, automototive, ag, woodshop, metal shop, computer science, the children are only limited by their upbringing which has FAR more to do with the system than the teachers or schools. Put a child that doesn't want to learn in the best classroom and he will fail, not the systems fault.
That's the way it is here, too -- or used to be anyway until the radicals starting pushing "back to basics testing," (resulting in elimination of many prevocational classes) and stealing money from the public schools for "private school vouchers." Arizona has become the land of "choice" - folks can choose charter schools (buyer beware), private schools (with vouchers taken from public schools), or the public option.

My wife and I retired last year after 30 years in the public schools, and our kids were products of public schools. I would hope my grandkids will be as well.

Sharon said it: what you put into your education + what you inherit from your parents + how your parents raise you = how "educable" you are.

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Re:

Post by DogNewbie » Mon May 21, 2012 9:24 am

Stoneface wrote:I've just finished my fourth year of college as of Thursday. It's rediculous. I feel like I should sue (and have been inclined to!) the college for false advertisement for the claims to a "quality education." My speech instructor sat in front of the class - and I'm not exagerating - and read the test to us the Wednesday before the Friday test. She gave us the question, let us right it down, gave us the page number and the paragraph. Then she let us use open book. I couldn't believe it! Now, ready for the real shocker? I know kids who flunked that class!

This semester, at the highest level undergraduate management class offered by the school, we had tests with questions like, "what is an entrepreneur?" or "what is a competitive advantage?" My MIS class (business computer use) had all our tests/quizzes online. NO ONE fails an online exam because they are standardized. It works like this: a textbook publisher publishes a book, ready-made presentations and ready-made test/quiz questions and answers that all go to the instructor. The instructor has a big pool of test questions, say 50-75 questions, they post to the school's cirriculum network, where the students can check their grades, take tests, electronically turn in assignments (I can't remember the last time I turned an actual paper into an instructor), etc. The test software in the system automatically randomizes the questions that will be drawn from the pool of questions and given on the test. So, with this standardization, all you have to do is copy the question, punch it into Google and you find website after website with a list of all the questions in the pool and all the correct answers. Not only that, but several classes (like an upper-level Quality Management class I just finished) will let you RETAKE TESTS AS MANY TIMES AS YOU LIKE!!! So, you take a test four times, everytime you finish a test it tells you which ones you got right and wrong and gives you the correct answer, you copy and paste that info into a Word document then retake the test again. By retake number three you'll usually have a 90%-100%. If you don't, you're a flaming retard. Ready for another kicker? About a quarter of all instructors give you untimed tests. My Labor & Employment Law instructor gave us ten question tests, once a week, and they were untimed. You could spend six days, 23 hours, 59 minutes and 59 seconds on the test because it was due by a deadline. And, if you started the test and got bored after a little while, not biggie - just save the test and finish it in a few days.

Then we have Finance and Algebra tests that you take on a scantron (this is a scantron: http://friendsoftheprogram.net/wp-conte ... m882ES.gif ). You fill in the bubble for the corresponding correct answer for that question. For example, if the answer is B for number one, then on the scantron, next to "1", you fill in "B". The reason for scantrons is because the instructor can take them upstairs and run them through a machine - reminds me of the machine that counts money at the bank - and they are all graded in less than a minute. And, if you do take a test in-class you'll have about four tests over the course of a semester and the THEY DROP YOUR LOWEST TEST GRADE!!!!!

Another thing. The isntructors/professors are almost apologetic half the time. The MIS instructor actually asked what we liked about the test, what we wanted to see more of, would true/false be better than multiple choice, etc. When I was a preaching major two years ago one instructor, on the last day of classes, made an announcement that some students were missing even the first assignment and they better get it in by the time grades are due if they want full credit for it.

And high schools! My brother was allowed to text in class, as long as he didn't disturb anyone. At the end of one school year he was going to flunk so all his teachers gave him enough extra credit (you ought to have seen what they assigned for this so-called "extra credit"! More like "voucher for points") to pass.

Here's what I think. Our system sucks. I'm buying a $35,000 piece of paper. That's it. If any of your guys' kids flunk high school or college, do them a favor; take them behind the wood shed and beat them about the head and body! The only reason for flunking a class in today's American education system is a total, absolute and utter lack of effort. If you show up and turn in blank piece of paper with your name on it, you're going to at least pass.

With out scores and rankings at the level they are on this site, how long do you think we and our economies will remain major competitors on the global level? http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... ce-reading

I was talking to one of just four instructors who put out effort and who required students to actaully apply themselves. He said that after twenty five years of teaching college he's seen a radical twist in attitude of students. When he started teaching, students would fail and say, "Maybe I should have studied a little harder." Now they say, "If you were a better teacher,I would have passed. Can I retake the test or have some extra credit? Do you drop a test score?"

I have to admit, my grades have slipped the past year. I got to the university level and no one seemed to car. I finished my Associates degrees with all kinds of recognition and was gung ho when I bumped up to the four-year level. I just lost my gusto when I saw the instructor and professors really don't give and "bleep" and have no inclination to teach you anything. Until this past semester I rarely received less than an A and, if I did get a B, it was the only B I'd received for that semester. This past fall I got four Bs and an A. This semester I got my first C. I didn't come to college for the piece of paper, I came because I wanted to learn and wanted to be a great business man. One instructor summed it up when he asked all of us who came to school for the education to raise our hands. When half the class raised our hands he said, " Well, now I know how many liars I have in my class."
I'm a strong believer that you can get a good or bad education no matter the institution you go to. Your education is what you make it. It's not a college professor's job to make sure his/her students are spending their money wisely. If a student want to skim by an get the passing grade without learning anything, they're just wasting their own time and money. Yeah, that degree will help them get a job interview over the non college grad, but they aren't going to land a job if they can't prove they've learned anything. I have buddies from high school that went to college and skied 4 days out of the school week and still got good grades. They are all unemployed currently. The way I did my education, I would never have had time to play 4 days and study 1 or 2. I also didn't care about my grades. My only concern was passing and making sure I learned the content. If I was swamped and couldn't study for a test, I'd get a C- or D on it and study the content later when I had time and unlike the students that passed the test, I still remembered the content after 24hrs. Not saying I was trying to get bad grades, but if it happened sometimes I would sweat it because that's not the important part of an education. My friends that slide through the system could have applied themselves and actually learned something, but instead they are jobless and in debt. That's their own fault in my opinion. In contrast, I also have a buddy that went to a decent public school and got himself an amazing education purely because he milked everything he could out of that institution. He was constantly seeking out work and lab programs in fields of interest and even decided to stay in school a fifth year, even though he had all his graduation requirements, because there were a couple classes he didn't get around to taking. Not only did he learn more in those 5 years than I could have in 10, but he ended up creating strong relationships with professionals in his fields of interest and will never have any problems getting job recommendations/character references. No way can you solely blame the system or teachers and professors for an adults decision to throw their education and money out the window.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by rinker » Mon May 21, 2012 9:53 am

Two instructors got ahold of me and taught me to quit b*****n' and deal with it.
I think you might need another lesson.

My son is just now finishing his junior year in a public high school. I think his educational experience so far has been great. He has a 4.0 grade point average and up until this year was a three sport athelete, he did not play baseball this year. School is like any thing else, you get out of it what you put in to it.

I am also the product of a public school and I think that I have turned out OK.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by ultracarry » Mon May 21, 2012 12:09 pm

I think it is important when you look at this post to read the entire thing... So your saying public school is easy, yet you did not graduate from a public school?

Not all colleges are the same, you have many different accreditations to choose from... Based upon that will determine how easy it is and if future employers will take it as a true degree. Itt tech, university of phoenix, and devry to name a few are nationally accredited. When your looking into getting a degree that you can use you may want to look into regionally accredited schools.

I have taken classes in both and there is a huge difference.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Gertie » Mon May 21, 2012 1:07 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:I am confident in saying that my college education was challenging and well rounded. It prepared me well for my career and life in general. Without it, I would have been a lost ball in the tall grass.

I wasn't as well prepared by high school for college. That, however, was my fault, not the school system. I was more interested in hunting, fishing, frog-gigging and muscle cars. The first year of college was rough. After that, I got my act together. By the time I graduated, it was pretty easy. Well, except for Dr. Cook's Quantum Mechanics class. That was agony.

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+1

My college experience was both challenging and rewarding. It was a highly competitive program and not everybody made it but there was never any question as to whether I was receiving a quality education. It was worth every penny and every hour of sleep lost studying for tests. I'm very thankful for my education, grateful for my teachers, and proud of the work I did. That's what it's all about (and getting a good job afterward... which I have and am also very grateful for)!
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Re:

Post by SubMariner » Mon May 21, 2012 2:18 pm

Stoneface wrote:I've just finished my fourth year of college as of Thursday. It's rediculous. I feel like I should sue (and have been inclined to!) the college for false advertisement for the claims to a "quality education." My speech instructor sat in front of the class - and I'm not exagerating - and read the test to us the Wednesday before the Friday test. She gave us the question, let us right it down, gave us the page number and the paragraph. Then she let us use open book. I couldn't believe it! Now, ready for the real shocker? I know kids who flunked that class!

This semester, at the highest level undergraduate management class offered by the school, we had tests with questions like, "what is an entrepreneur?" or "what is a competitive advantage?" My MIS class (business computer use) had all our tests/quizzes online. NO ONE fails an online exam because they are standardized. It works like this: a textbook publisher publishes a book, ready-made presentations and ready-made test/quiz questions and answers that all go to the instructor. The instructor has a big pool of test questions, say 50-75 questions, they post to the school's cirriculum network, where the students can check their grades, take tests, electronically turn in assignments (I can't remember the last time I turned an actual paper into an instructor), etc. The test software in the system automatically randomizes the questions that will be drawn from the pool of questions and given on the test. So, with this standardization, all you have to do is copy the question, punch it into Google and you find website after website with a list of all the questions in the pool and all the correct answers. Not only that, but several classes (like an upper-level Quality Management class I just finished) will let you RETAKE TESTS AS MANY TIMES AS YOU LIKE!!! So, you take a test four times, everytime you finish a test it tells you which ones you got right and wrong and gives you the correct answer, you copy and paste that info into a Word document then retake the test again. By retake number three you'll usually have a 90%-100%. If you don't, you're a flaming retard. Ready for another kicker? About a quarter of all instructors give you untimed tests. My Labor & Employment Law instructor gave us ten question tests, once a week, and they were untimed. You could spend six days, 23 hours, 59 minutes and 59 seconds on the test because it was due by a deadline. And, if you started the test and got bored after a little while, not biggie - just save the test and finish it in a few days.

Then we have Finance and Algebra tests that you take on a scantron (this is a scantron: http://friendsoftheprogram.net/wp-conte ... m882ES.gif ). You fill in the bubble for the corresponding correct answer for that question. For example, if the answer is B for number one, then on the scantron, next to "1", you fill in "B". The reason for scantrons is because the instructor can take them upstairs and run them through a machine - reminds me of the machine that counts money at the bank - and they are all graded in less than a minute. And, if you do take a test in-class you'll have about four tests over the course of a semester and the THEY DROP YOUR LOWEST TEST GRADE!!!!!

Another thing. The isntructors/professors are almost apologetic half the time. The MIS instructor actually asked what we liked about the test, what we wanted to see more of, would true/false be better than multiple choice, etc. When I was a preaching major two years ago one instructor, on the last day of classes, made an announcement that some students were missing even the first assignment and they better get it in by the time grades are due if they want full credit for it.

And high schools! My brother was allowed to text in class, as long as he didn't disturb anyone. At the end of one school year he was going to flunk so all his teachers gave him enough extra credit (you ought to have seen what they assigned for this so-called "extra credit"! More like "voucher for points") to pass.

Here's what I think. Our system sucks. I'm buying a $35,000 piece of paper. That's it. If any of your guys' kids flunk high school or college, do them a favor; take them behind the wood shed and beat them about the head and body! The only reason for flunking a class in today's American education system is a total, absolute and utter lack of effort. If you show up and turn in blank piece of paper with your name on it, you're going to at least pass.

With out scores and rankings at the level they are on this site, how long do you think we and our economies will remain major competitors on the global level? http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... ce-reading

I was talking to one of just four instructors who put out effort and who required students to actaully apply themselves. He said that after twenty five years of teaching college he's seen a radical twist in attitude of students. When he started teaching, students would fail and say, "Maybe I should have studied a little harder." Now they say, "If you were a better teacher,I would have passed. Can I retake the test or have some extra credit? Do you drop a test score?"

I have to admit, my grades have slipped the past year. I got to the university level and no one seemed to car. I finished my Associates degrees with all kinds of recognition and was gung ho when I bumped up to the four-year level. I just lost my gusto when I saw the instructor and professors really don't give and "bleep" and have no inclination to teach you anything. Until this past semester I rarely received less than an A and, if I did get a B, it was the only B I'd received for that semester. This past fall I got four Bs and an A. This semester I got my first C. I didn't come to college for the piece of paper, I came because I wanted to learn and wanted to be a great business man. One instructor summed it up when he asked all of us who came to school for the education to raise our hands. When half the class raised our hands he said, " Well, now I know how many liars I have in my class."
Welcome to University/College. It is NOT high school where they take attendance and hound you if you don't turn in your term paper. You are now at a level in academia where you are responsible for yourself. If you are having a problem with a class, make an appointment with your prof to have h/h critique your results to give you an idea where your strengths and weaknesses lie. Then either join a study group or get additional tutoring elsewhere to bring yourself up to the level you need to be to pass your courses.

If you do not believe that you are well served by the post-secondary institution you are currently attending, look for alternatives. Most places will allow you to transfer the credits you earned to their program. Perhaps this university's style of teaching is not what you need: not everyone learns in the same way or at the same rate. You might find yourself re-rejuvenated if you go elsewhere.

First year uni is a Baker India Tango Charlie Hotel. Unlike high school, class sizes are large and profs rarely have the time or energy to find out who individual students are in their lectures. There is so much information that needs to be imparted that it's not uncommon for there to be a lot of online work or self study. So it's up to YOU to take up the challenge of organizing and learning what you need to learn.

If it's any consolation, subsequent years are better because class sizes are smaller. But the precept is the same: how much (or little) you learn at university is up to you.
Last edited by SubMariner on Tue May 22, 2012 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Stoneface » Mon May 21, 2012 3:21 pm

Ultra, I was a major slacker in high school, didn't care and stuff going on outside of school was messing with my head, so I didn't try. And no one stepped and gave me a smack upside the head. On top of that, we moved excessively and for awhile, when my dad was a trucker, we lived out of the truck.

Not saying college should hold your hand. In fact, that's exactly what I'm saying they shouldn't do. They shouldn't give you breaks, cater to your every whim or bend the rules so you can pass. But, that's just what they do. That's my gripe.

I'm guessing some - if not all - of you who are saying our school system and university system is a quality gig are old timers. Back in the day people didn't have the sense of self-entitlement just for "being me" that they do today. Kids today expect to get their way more often and the older generation give it to them way too much. They don't have to work for anything and the schools still give them good grades and pass them. Not like academics of yesteryear.
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon May 21, 2012 3:27 pm

I am so grateful to live in a country where I can work to provide the financial infrastructure to people who feel they aren't getting my money's worth.
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Re: Re:

Post by Kmack » Mon May 21, 2012 3:40 pm

SubMariner wrote:
Welcome to University/College. It is NOT high school where they take attendance and hound you if you don't turn in your term paper. You are now at a level in academia where you are responsible for yourself. If you are having a problem with a class, make an appointment with your prof to have h/h critique your results to give you an idea where your strengths and weaknesses lie. Then either join a study group or get additional tutoring elsewhere to bring yourself up to the level you need to be to pass your courses.

If you do not believe that you are well served by the post-secondary institution you are currently attending, look for alternatives. Most places will allow you to transfer the credits you earned to their program. Perhaps this university's style of teaching is not what you need: not everyone learns in the same way or at the same rate. You might find yourself re-rejuvenated if you go elsewhere.

First year uni is a Baker India Tango Charlie Echo. Unlike high school, class sizes are large and profs rarely have the time or energy to find out who individual students are in their lectures. There is so much information that needs to be imparted that it's not uncommon for there to be a lot of online work or self study. So it's up to YOU to take up the challenge of organizing and learning what you need to learn.

If it's any consolation, subsequent years are better because class sizes are smaller. But the precept is the same: how much (or little) you learn at university is up to you.
Did you mean Baker India Tango Charlie Hotel??? :wink:

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Gertie » Mon May 21, 2012 4:42 pm

Stoneface wrote:I'm guessing some - if not all - of you who are saying our school system and university system is a quality gig are old timers. Back in the day people didn't have the sense of self-entitlement just for "being me" that they do today. Kids today expect to get their way more often and the older generation give it to them way too much. They don't have to work for anything and the schools still give them good grades and pass them. Not like academics of yesteryear.
I graduated in 2010 (i.e. not really an 'old timer' in the contextual sense) and am looking into a graduate program beginning next winter. I had a double major and it was not a cake walk and I don't expect that graduate school will be any easier. My point is that the "generation me" kids are out there but good institutions make their students adhere to a standard, despite the grumblings of sub-par students.

It sounds like you may want to transfer to a new school. If you don't feel you are receiving a quality education then there's a fairly good chance that word has gotten around in the employment world that the school you are enrolled in is cranking out some lack-luster graduates (trust me, I do the hiring for our summer crew and there are a few schools I simply won't consider candidates from based on past experiences). I'd bail if I were you and seek a school that upholds strong performance standards. College is expensive and you might as well be getting your money's worth. As always, JMO.
Last edited by Gertie on Mon May 21, 2012 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

Post by SubMariner » Mon May 21, 2012 4:55 pm

Kmack wrote:
SubMariner wrote:
Welcome to University/College. It is NOT high school where they take attendance and hound you if you don't turn in your term paper. You are now at a level in academia where you are responsible for yourself. If you are having a problem with a class, make an appointment with your prof to have h/h critique your results to give you an idea where your strengths and weaknesses lie. Then either join a study group or get additional tutoring elsewhere to bring yourself up to the level you need to be to pass your courses.

If you do not believe that you are well served by the post-secondary institution you are currently attending, look for alternatives. Most places will allow you to transfer the credits you earned to their program. Perhaps this university's style of teaching is not what you need: not everyone learns in the same way or at the same rate. You might find yourself re-rejuvenated if you go elsewhere.

First year uni is a Baker India Tango Charlie Echo. Unlike high school, class sizes are large and profs rarely have the time or energy to find out who individual students are in their lectures. There is so much information that needs to be imparted that it's not uncommon for there to be a lot of online work or self study. So it's up to YOU to take up the challenge of organizing and learning what you need to learn.

If it's any consolation, subsequent years are better because class sizes are smaller. But the precept is the same: how much (or little) you learn at university is up to you.
Did you mean Baker India Tango Charlie Hotel??? :wink:
Yup... thanks for noticing... I obviously transposed a couple of "letters". :oops:
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Sharon » Mon May 21, 2012 6:27 pm

Stoneface wrote:Ultra, I was a major slacker in high school, didn't care and stuff going on outside of school was messing with my head, so I didn't try. And no one stepped and gave me a smack upside the head. On top of that, we moved excessively and for awhile, when my dad was a trucker, we lived out of the truck.

Not saying college should hold your hand. In fact, that's exactly what I'm saying they shouldn't do. They shouldn't give you breaks, cater to your every whim or bend the rules so you can pass. But, that's just what they do. That's my gripe.

I'm guessing some - if not all - of you who are saying our school system and university system is a quality gig are old timers. Back in the day people didn't have the sense of self-entitlement just for "being me" that they do today. Kids today expect to get their way more often and the older generation give it to them way too much. They don't have to work for anything and the schools still give them good grades and pass them. Not like academics of yesteryear.
We "old timers" didn't expect any thing to be given to us; we worked hard and long. There were 5 years of highschool then. Exams were provincially set so every student in ON wrote the same exam. Your marks were posted in the city newspaper.
I worked while I went to University . There were no "student loans etc". My parents had no money Took me 8 years of working from 8-6 and being at University from 7-10.- 2 courses a year ( 16 credits). Not once did I think I was gettin an inferior educaton.
My father only got to grade 5 before he was enlisted to work the fields for Grandpa. He was so proud of me getting a University degree. Whenever he included my name in any correspondence he's put Sharon C. B.A. Always embarrassed me but I knew what he was saying.
Maybe these hard times will help young people to be thankful for an education and any job they can get.


PS "Not saying college should hold your hand. In fact, that's exactly what I'm saying they shouldn't do. They shouldn't give you breaks, cater to your every whim or bend the rules so you can pass. But, that's just what they do. That's my gripe. " Stoneface

That is a gross generalization.
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Stoneface » Mon May 21, 2012 9:30 pm

Sharon wrote:Whenever he included my name in any correspondence he's put Sharon C. B.A. Always embarrassed me but I knew what he was saying.
That's a GREAT story. I'm don't believe ALL schools, bar none, in the U.S. are terrible and I'm not saying it's always been this way, but, by and large, I think the education system is sugar coating today's kids' lives. Gertie said not all kids today are stereotypical "Me Generation" members, and I think that's right, but I've been to about twenty schools in the past fifteen years, from California to Missouri and all over in between. This is just what I've seen and listening to my brother's stories from school makes me think it's just getting worse.

I think I need to bow out of this one because I'm in the minority! :wink:
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by jcbuttry8 » Mon May 21, 2012 9:40 pm

ezzy333 wrote:There are a host of problems but they all start at home. Till that changes our schools don't have a chance.

Ezzy
I agree, and my comment above is directed at the majority of parents not the teachers. I went to my kids open house and listened to the teachers and what they give the kids every day. Then listened to them talk about how if the children just do their homework they will pass the class. WTF. Where were these teachers in my school. I went directly home and sat down both of my teenagers and threatened them with their lives if they failed. My seventh grader hasn't brought a backpack home in two months, has done not one shred of homework and brought home a certificate that stated he made the honor roll for the third straight marking period. I remember my junior high days and I had plenty of work to do in the evenings. The teachers today don't have a fighting chance when it comes to the parents of all these golden children we have today. Everything is expected and nothing is worked for.

My three kids clean the house and pick up daily. Both my teenagers complain about how their friends don't have to work around the house why should they? My arguement was " mom and I work 10 to 12 hours a day each. It isn't us trashing the place. If you feel that your friend has it better by all means feel free to go live with them. By the way, I own everything in this house, so you will leave the same way you came in it, butt naked."
They generally shut up and clean.

We were at a lacrosse tournament Sunday. The team we were playing was not happy about being down 3 points. One of our defense men was scrambling for a ground ball with a kid from the other team. That kid got frustrated, dropped his stick and punched our defense men in the helmet twice. The ref threw the kid out of the game. The parents of the kid stormed out on the field yelling at the ref that the other kid should have been thrown out because he would not let their son have the ball. He was completely right to throw the punch. Unfortunately, these are the attitudes of a lot of parents today. It is constant excuses for the kids.

It isn't that the kids aren't trying it is the teachers give to much homework. We actually had a write up in a newspaper from parents saying that their kids were being mistreated because they had 3 hours of homework a night. It was way to much. They ended up cutting the homework to none to appease the people. So, now we just dumbed down the whole class if not the whole school because a few people don't think their kid has to do homework.

Nobody loses anymore, Remember back in the day when you played a sport and someone actually won the game and someone lost it. Remember when you had to try out for a team? Not today as long as your parents pay you get a required amount of playing time. Since my boys started sports it has been a win or a loss. Period. There are no ties.

Last one, Last year on Halloween, I went to pick up my daughter from school and asked how her halloween party? She told me, right in front of the principal, that it was a treasure hunt not a halloween party, because a few of the jewish kids in the school don't celebrate Halloween and to have the party they had to call it something else. In front of everyone there, I made sure that my daughter knew that here in America, we celebrate halloween and that what she had that day was in fact a halloween party. I am not a racist nor do I care about your religion, but stop trying to change our traditions just because one or two of you in the class don't celebrate it!!!

Now I will get off the box, could do this all night,

Joe

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Gertie » Mon May 21, 2012 10:01 pm

jcbuttry8 wrote: By the way, I own everything in this house, so you will leave the same way you came in it, butt naked."
They generally shut up and clean.

Joe
:lol: :lol: :lol: If I ever have kids I'm going to remember that one! :wink:

Also, I had one more tid-bit I wanted to share. This one is about the over-indulgent 'helicopter' parents Joe mentioned. I recently got a phone call from the mom of a young man (mid-20s) I didn't select for a summer job. This mom went on and on about what a huge mistake I had made not hiring her son. I'm dead serious, this woman kept me on the phone for over 20 minutes and towards the end, after I had made several attempts to end the conversation and finally started to get a little short with her, she threatened legal action. WOW! I sure was glad I didn't hire that kid. I'd have had his mom trying to run my program! Anyway, I'm done.
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by jcbuttry8 » Tue May 22, 2012 5:16 am

I guess this post was on college, so, I went to DeVry University. There were your token professors that didn't push you that hard but overall I had to work pretty hard for my engineering degree. There was alot of hands on work. I did it in three years but they were set up that way. You went to school year round with only one or two weeks off in between each semester. Stoneface, I was told at one time, that a college degree only means you can be trained and that you have dedicated your time and money into yourself. So, an employer can trust that you can do the same for them. I have an BS in Electronics Engineering. Never once did we discuss or have a class on where electronics or computers were today. We discussed the very first chips and how they were designed and how they have added onto them. You get the background and an understanding of where they came from. You learn about today's technology when you get in the field.

I will say that a state university close to us had students that would come over a pay us to teach them how to use lab equipment. Such as oscilloscopes. They only had two stations to work at and you had to have professor with you to check out the equipment. Tough to do when you have hundreds of students and only two stations. At DeVry we had 80 stations fully equipped. We had access to anything we needed at any time. There are certain things that every school faults at. They can't provide everything all the time.

Joe

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by DogNewbie » Tue May 22, 2012 8:26 am

jcbuttry8 wrote: Last one, Last year on Halloween, I went to pick up my daughter from school and asked how her halloween party? She told me, right in front of the principal, that it was a treasure hunt not a halloween party, because a few of the jewish kids in the school don't celebrate Halloween and to have the party they had to call it something else. In front of everyone there, I made sure that my daughter knew that here in America, we celebrate halloween and that what she had that day was in fact a halloween party. I am not a racist nor do I care about your religion, but stop trying to change our traditions just because one or two of you in the class don't celebrate it!!!

Now I will get off the box, could do this all night,

Joe
Who is "we" and "our?" Americans? Well, that's true I guess, Americans do celebrate halloween, but WE also celebrate Ramadon, pass over, Diwali and countless more that the "average" American doesn't celebrate. I believe you said earlier that your kids are in public school. Well, that's just part of public school. You have holiday parties, not Christmas parties and you have treasure hunts instead of Halloween parties. You live in the melting pot of the world, and there are many, many traditions celebrated by Americans. It's what makes this nation great.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue May 22, 2012 10:32 am

I am in the camp that suggests that the lion's share of what is wrong with education begins at home. The basic human needs are not being satisfied that are critical in the development of humans. They are being replaced with selfish and destructive comforts that are easily identified in metrics like obesity rates, prescribed mind and mood altering drug epidemics, and fiscal irresponsibilty on a number of public and private levels. Effective immediately I demand that everyone is up 1 hour before day light and in bed no later than 10pm, you cannot watch tv 1 minute longer than you read per day, that we are all aerobic for 60 minutes per day, limit our processed food and caloric intake to no more than what we burn or less, operate off a balanced budget personally and within the government, and that we vote to reset all government bodies to creating no new laws and use their time for stripping 50 % of all existing laws and unneccesary governement services for a period of 10 years. That will keep the governement out of mischief and solve the social ills as well.

That was easy....if I could just get this puppy broke,,,

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by jcbuttry8 » Tue May 22, 2012 10:34 am

DogNewbie wrote:
jcbuttry8 wrote: Last one, Last year on Halloween, I went to pick up my daughter from school and asked how her halloween party? She told me, right in front of the principal, that it was a treasure hunt not a halloween party, because a few of the jewish kids in the school don't celebrate Halloween and to have the party they had to call it something else. In front of everyone there, I made sure that my daughter knew that here in America, we celebrate halloween and that what she had that day was in fact a halloween party. I am not a racist nor do I care about your religion, but stop trying to change our traditions just because one or two of you in the class don't celebrate it!!!

Now I will get off the box, could do this all night,

Joe
Who is "we" and "our?" Americans? Well, that's true I guess, Americans do celebrate halloween, but WE also celebrate Ramadon, pass over, Diwali and countless more that the "average" American doesn't celebrate. I believe you said earlier that your kids are in public school. Well, that's just part of public school. You have holiday parties, not Christmas parties and you have treasure hunts instead of Halloween parties. You live in the melting pot of the world, and there are many, many traditions celebrated by Americans. It's what makes this nation great.
Yeah, I get that. Just don't understand why it is acceptable to hear happy Hanukkah, but I get a dirty look if I choose to say Merry Christmas instead of happy holidays. I guess all I'm asking for is the same respect for my holidays as everyone else seems to demand for theirs. Guess it's to much to ask for.

Joe

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by DogNewbie » Tue May 22, 2012 11:49 am

jcbuttry8 wrote:
DogNewbie wrote:
jcbuttry8 wrote: Last one, Last year on Halloween, I went to pick up my daughter from school and asked how her halloween party? She told me, right in front of the principal, that it was a treasure hunt not a halloween party, because a few of the jewish kids in the school don't celebrate Halloween and to have the party they had to call it something else. In front of everyone there, I made sure that my daughter knew that here in America, we celebrate halloween and that what she had that day was in fact a halloween party. I am not a racist nor do I care about your religion, but stop trying to change our traditions just because one or two of you in the class don't celebrate it!!!

Now I will get off the box, could do this all night,

Joe
Who is "we" and "our?" Americans? Well, that's true I guess, Americans do celebrate halloween, but WE also celebrate Ramadon, pass over, Diwali and countless more that the "average" American doesn't celebrate. I believe you said earlier that your kids are in public school. Well, that's just part of public school. You have holiday parties, not Christmas parties and you have treasure hunts instead of Halloween parties. You live in the melting pot of the world, and there are many, many traditions celebrated by Americans. It's what makes this nation great.
Yeah, I get that. Just don't understand why it is acceptable to hear happy Hanukkah, but I get a dirty look if I choose to say Merry Christmas instead of happy holidays. I guess all I'm asking for is the same respect for my holidays as everyone else seems to demand for theirs. Guess it's to much to ask for.

Joe
I guess I've just never had any experience with people giving me weird looks for saying Merry Christmas. I totally agree that all holidays should be respected, but that doesn't mean that all holidays should be celebrated in public education. I wouldn't want my kids fasting all day during Ramadon, so I can understand if people would feel like my beliefs are being pushed upon them if I insisted that their kids celebrate one of my holidays in school. I think a good way to do it, and I think a lot of public schools have started doing this, is to teach students about the different cultures and the celebrations they partake in. For the Halloween example, I think kids should be taught the modern aspects of Halloween, the celebration of dia de los muertos, the pagen roots of All Hallows eve, and the christian influences of All Saints Day on Halloween. Make it a history and social studies lesson and not so much a celebration of one groups holiday. I have no problem with kids learning about other cultures other than their own, as long as it is done in a way that isn't saying one is better than the other. I think celebrating just one of those holidays in school is, in a way, saying that that one is better than the rest. However, this mind set has been labeled as a war against Christianity and I think that is just ridiculous. But, yes, that would be very frustrating having people give you strange looks for saying Merry Christmas. If I were Jewish and was greeted in that way I'd just say thanks and wish that person a Happy Hanukkah. :D I'm sure people take it the wrong way because they see it as an excluding greeting rather than an exclamation of your celebration of your holiday. Nothing wrong with being excited about Christmas IMO

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by hunterw/newhobby » Tue May 22, 2012 4:16 pm

I'm a public school teacher, in a good district thank god, so take these comments for what they are worth. I teach science and would love to be able to teach genetics by using examples of kids in my class. if two lazy social welfare abusing people get together and have a kid, usually 5-6 because they make more welfare money, their kid(s) are usually my biggest PIA's. It drives me nuts as a teacher to know that more than likely they will just continue the family tradition. The good news, or at least the news I try to focus on so I dont go nuts, is that sometimes these kids do become productive members of society, some go to college and succeed. The kids that worry me as much if not more are the upper middle class kids whose parents do everything for them and buy them everything under the son. These are the kids that are getting to college and whining about grades, not being fair, blah blah blah. These are the kids that once their parents cut them off after $50-$60,000 spent on various crap that turn into the kinda working poor. So, my parenting advice from a parent and teacher is to not to spoil your kids. It sucks for you later in life. Lastly, the public education system is controlled by politicians trying to get re-elected. they don't let trained educators make educational decisions, they try to make them. My best example: No Child Left Behind. Stupid legislation brought on by Bush 2 (not getting into political debate bc both parties have their individual stupid legislation). NCLB states that every child should be a "B"ish student by this year. In normal talk this means that the special needs child who will never talk, uses a wheelchair, needs assistance to do everything, and just wants to be happy must take a test every year. If this noncommunicative student fails this test it means the school is failing and should be punished. (basic idea of the problem). God forbid trained special education teachers could do their best to at least help this student be happy and maybe learn to communicate a little. One of the saddest things I've seen in education is the frustration students like this go through taking these tests that there is no way they will pass. Should have just stopped when I said I worked in a field ran by politicians.
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by DougB » Tue May 22, 2012 6:36 pm

The system has some problems. NCLB is the classic example. Politicians, with lots of authority and a minimum of knowledge, control the system. If you control the money, you control. Parents, with minimum parenting skills and high expectations for children with great self images but no accomplishments, yell loudly at the politicians who listen to the loud more than the reasonable. Teachers, the trained, experienced, underpaid professionals, are the poorly regarded whipping boys of both.

You can lead a horse to water, but if you hold his head in it too long, he drowns. He wont drink unless he is thirsty. Education is not poured into the head by the schools, and if the kids and their parents aren't willing to do the work, holding the kids head underwater for a while might help remove the problem kid, but can not make a kid learn if he believes he is superior just the way he is. You get an education by working hard, which seems to be an unpopular method. At the age of 55 and "between jobs", I went back to school. A vocational school with a good reputation. The teachers were skilled professionals in their trade, and were experienced teachers. Because of my advanced age, I was able to have some great conversations with the instructors. One of the biggest problems was getting the kids to do their assignments and shop work. These kids were paying good money to learn a well paid career, but didn't want to do the work in a timely manner. The instructors went out of their way to help the kids. Last day of class, I sat at a table with the instructors watching the rest of the class trying to do a semesters worth of work in a day. I drank coffee and helped cook the brats for the end of semester party. The problem is not the system. The problem is the raw material needs refining. Garbage in, garbage out.

These are of course generalizations. There are a lot of fine students, from excellent or poor homes, doing excellent or poor work in excellent or poor schools. We just like to dwell on the problems. As an aside, the list of the nations best schools just came out, and there is a relationship between money invested in education and quality of schools. Of course, rich school districts have rich families, who have lots of books in the home, and have parents who have time to spend with the kids, instead of parents who spend all their time working to keep the kids fed and housed.

In Minnesota, we used to see education as an investment in our future. Thanks to our former pro wrestle/governor, we now see education as a financial black hole. The money games played by the MN govt to balance the budget on the backs of education should be shameful, but the govt seems quite proud. And we will get the new billion dollar Vikings arena.
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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by ezzy333 » Tue May 22, 2012 6:40 pm

One of the saddest things I've seen in education is the frustration students like this go through taking these tests that there is no way they will pass. Should have just stopped when I said I worked in a field ran by politicians.
If they don't run it then the unions do and neither one of them have much interest in educating our young people.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by birddogger » Tue May 22, 2012 8:18 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
One of the saddest things I've seen in education is the frustration students like this go through taking these tests that there is no way they will pass. Should have just stopped when I said I worked in a field ran by politicians.
If they don't run it then the unions do and neither one of them have much interest in educating our young people.

Ezzy
Sad but so true!

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by tommyboy72 » Tue May 22, 2012 9:22 pm

I guess I would have to say that I am in agreement with Stoneface. College is a huge waste of money and time. I have a degree in finance with minors in marketing and business management which is strange because at my university you only need 12 upper level hours in your core courses for a major but you need 18 hours in the core for a minor. I guess I would consider my education well rounded and I was on the dean's honor roll and president's honor roll the last 5 semesters of my university career. Much of this is wasted though because rather than working in my degree field I work at the sheriff's office which is the same exact thing I was doing before I returned to college to get my degree. I would also like it to be known that myself and Joe aka jcbuttry worked for many years together in a very technical and diverse field, ammonia refrigeration, for multi million dollar companies dealing with ammonia compressors, electrical, electronics, ammonia piping and valves, specialized computer interlogic computer programs and more. One of the reasons I returned to college to get my degree was to increase my pay scale in this field but was told after graduation upon speaking with recruiters for this field that my degree and my 10+ years of experience in ammonia refrigeration was null and void because I should have just stayed in the field and worked my way up as a supervisor that way rather than returning to school and seeking a degree. Keep in mind that the field of ammonia refrigeration has not changed much since the advent of the electronic control board in the 1980's. It seems as if employers these days are looking more for experience than anything yet there is the double edged sword that they do not want to pay for it. Everyone advertises 5+ years of experience desired or necessary but most companies would rather hire a 23 year old kid straight out of college with no work experience rather than a 40 year old looking to change careers with a diverse background. It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me. I would make the suggestion to anyone intent upon attending college that they definitely get a technical degree such as in engineering like jcbuttry did or attend somewhere like Spartan School or Aeronautics and learn to work on the systems for large commercial airliners like another buddy of mine did or even if you are going to attend a traditional 4 year college get an engineering degree or a computer networking degree or one in computer graphics. Do not under any circumstances get a theoretically based degree such as in business or accounting or marketing or communications. To close I just want to let everyone know that I read an article the day before yesterday that stated that there are 9 million people unemployed in the U.S. today. 4.7 million of these people had attended college or had a college degree meaning that 4.3 milliion had never attended college. There are actually more college attendees and graduates unemployed in the United States today than non college attendees or graduates. That is a sad commentary on todays economy and the state of employers and what they are looking for as well. It seems to me as if employers are looking for the cheapest way out even if it means hiring less qualified, less educated, and less experienced workers today. I will get off my soap box now.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by gotpointers » Wed May 23, 2012 3:57 am

Tom, I agree with you completely. College education is not all its held up to be. My wife has her Masters degree in elementary school education, bachelors in scocioligy and a bachleors in political science. As a teacher she makes less than half the wages i do with my high school and a little bit of technical school education. The only thing that really helped me was the shop classes. I don't know anyone personaly that has figured out how to make a living writing screenplays, or a hai ku. I have had all my kids in private school since they were in kindergarden and they do not offer any type of technical courses. I have taken it upon myself to cover this lack of very important education. And give them some real world common sense. They help me with remodels, welding, carpentry,and automotive. I plan on all three including my daugther being completely versitale so i can drink beer, bbq, play with my dogs and not have student loans to repay.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by jcbuttry8 » Wed May 23, 2012 5:43 am

While I somewhat agree with the both of you, the need for a college education is still important. It is almost impossible to even apply for a decent job today without a college degree. No matter what experience level most places are looking for the one thing they do expect is a college education.

Joe

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Greg Jennings » Wed May 23, 2012 6:08 am

Haiku. That's really funny.

My college education allowed me to design flight control software for the F-16 and F-22 and other kind-of-aircraft that I can't talk about. Similarly, I did guidance work for the Patriot missile. I've done radar simulation software for the P-3 and knowledge-based systems used on military satellites, applied data warehousing technology to military logistics... yadda yadda. Ya just can't learn the material required to do that in a shop class.

The bottom line is that there are different subjects to study, that apply to the market in different ways. There are different people, with different aptitudes and work ethics. There are different schools that have different quality of instruction and different reputations with employers. It's all up to the person to choose well and then apply themselves.

Screenwriter make money? Does "Steven Spielberg" mean anything to you?

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by volraider » Wed May 23, 2012 7:07 am

I send my kids to a Christian school because I like the learning environment they have. I also believe the number one problem with our school systems is bad parenting and the lack of 2 parent households. Good parents will see that their kids are good students. The second biggest problem is lack of discipline in the school system. The 3rd is 60 to 70 cents of every dollar spent on education is spent on administration so the money is not getting to the kids. The local school system spends $8000 a child to educate them for one year, I pay less than $3000 a child. The average ACT score at my children’s school is a 26 and the average for the school system is a 20. I know that’s flawed because the number of kids tested but I still look at it as a factor. I support school vouchers because I believe competition will create stronger schools, the good teachers will make more money and the bad teachers will be without a job. The government is 15 trillion in debt and that should tell you all you need to know about how they run things.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Jiminla » Wed May 23, 2012 9:36 am

I call all of them the "VIDEO GAME GENERATION KIDS"! 80% OF THEM DO NOT WANT TO HUNT OR FISH AND COULD CARE LESS ABOUT THE OUTDOORS. They either have their phones stuck to their face or ear until they worry about who is going to fill their gas tanks again. I also found out that your are "DAD" until they reach age 13 and then you're an ATM machine.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Chukar12 » Wed May 23, 2012 10:17 am

As a person who hires a number of people annually in leadership and administrative positions and oversees operations that hire a number of people in entry level and blue collar positions I can tell you that my experience has been that there a number of paths to career success for folks. College can prepare you with very specific skill sets in marketing, engineering, finance, legal, etc... Those opportunities are largely restricted in smaller organizations and communities and the 'sexier" positions are in larger companies in major metropolitin areas. In most businesses of service and sales operations you can succeed if you get your foot in the door, show a passion for the business and a commitment to the company values and culture as well as bringing shareholder and stakeholder return by showing an accumen for executing their strategy.

When I look at a resume' the college degrees mean something to me and it will often get someone in front of me, what it will not do for them is execute an interview. Interview skills based on experience, the right questions and really listening to a person speak, often bring out characteristics in people that immediately disqualify them from working on a team. I see pay as a by-product of success driven by internal motivation as opposed to THE motivation; and in an interview for leadership positions, if it smells like a candidate has been chasing that their whole working life...its too risky and I will look elsewhere.

In my 30 year career in the building materials business I have seen people succeed from the basis of advanced education, working from the ground up, and to a lesser extent from a mid-life career change with transferable skill sets. In the leadership and reponsibilty positions the most successful have always been exceptional communicators, well disciplined and extremely passionate about the business and developing others to succeed in the business. Vagabonds and entrepreneurs are seen as a gamble especially if they do not have a track record of success as a turn around specialist. MOST businesses are not looking for an exit in 5, 10 or 20 years therefore they operate from a point of view that requires a person to execute an existing strategy well and that are committed to a long term relationship; showing up with a screaming ego about your education or experience and answers to questions that suggest that you are where you are because the man has kept you down is a good way to keep the interview short.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by gotpointers » Wed May 23, 2012 10:49 am

Greg Jennings wrote:Haiku. That's really funny.

My college education allowed me to design flight control software for the F-16 and F-22 and other kind-of-aircraft that I can't talk about. Similarly, I did guidance work for the Patriot missile. I've done radar simulation software for the P-3 and knowledge-based systems used on military satellites, applied data warehousing technology to military logistics... yadda yadda. Ya just can't learn the material required to do that in a shop class.

The bottom line is that there are different subjects to study, that apply to the market in different ways. There are different people, with different aptitudes and work ethics. There are different schools that have different quality of instruction and different reputations with employers. It's all up to the person to choose well and then apply themselves.

Screenwriter make money? Does "Steven Spielberg" mean anything to you?
I have heard of him but i don't know him and like i said i don't know anyone who has actually made a living at it. He's one in a million. I bet the guys who marketed the sham-wow made money but also are one in a million. I however do agree with you also people are diffrent. But todays job market is also diffrent than back in the day. My little brother has his masters in business and works for sandia labs. It took him many years of struggling to land that one even though he had his internship right out of school. My father had his Civil Enginering degree. I think i make more money wrenching and welding for the railroad and real estate investing on the side, than both of them and i have less stress. But some people thrive on stress. Don't get me wrong education is a good thing. I would not spend nearly 20k a year for my 10,13, and 15 year old to attend Catholic schools if i didn't think so. I just think many of the subjects give them little they can use in the real world not the Spielberg world.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Kmack » Wed May 23, 2012 11:37 am

1. There's Dumb People with degrees.
2. There's Dumb People with no education.
3. There's Smart People with degrees.
4. There's Smart People with no education.
5. There's Mediocre People with degrees.
6. There's Mediocre People without degrees.

I would hire 3 first, 4 second, 5 third, 6 forth - 1 and 2 can go somewhere else.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by nikegundog » Wed May 23, 2012 12:31 pm

volraider wrote:I send my kids to a Christian school because I like the learning environment they have. I also believe the number one problem with our school systems is bad parenting and the lack of 2 parent households. Good parents will see that their kids are good students. The second biggest problem is lack of discipline in the school system. The 3rd is 60 to 70 cents of every dollar spent on education is spent on administration so the money is not getting to the kids. The local school system spends $8000 a child to educate them for one year, I pay less than $3000 a child. The average ACT score at my children’s school is a 26 and the average for the school system is a 20. I know that’s flawed because the number of kids tested but I still look at it as a factor. I support school vouchers because I believe competition will create stronger schools, the good teachers will make more money and the bad teachers will be without a job. The government is 15 trillion in debt and that should tell you all you need to know about how they run things.
Private schools have the option of not taking the children with discipline problems and not taking the children with low test scores, thus the difference in price and test scores. I am completely against a voucher system unless private schools play by the exact same rules as the public system, which they would never choose to take on. If the public schools had the option of eliminating the bottom of the gene pool I bet those test scores would be a whole lot closer. I have nothing against private schools but the argument about how well they could do with so little is comparing apples to oranges.

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Re: You want to see what's wrong with our education system?

Post by Sharon » Wed May 23, 2012 1:02 pm

jcbuttry8 wrote:While I somewhat agree with the both of you, the need for a college education is still important. It is almost impossible to even apply for a decent job today without a college degree. No matter what experience level most places are looking for the one thing they do expect is a college education.

Joe

I think that depends. If you are taking courses for an education degree , nursing degree or computer technology degree , that is a good thing. However those who show up for a job interview with a general arts degree, French degree etc will probably not be hired.
High school students need to spend more time searching for what degrees are marketable today befor choosing their degree goals.
Last edited by Sharon on Wed May 23, 2012 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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