debate

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:27 pm

These questions weren't on a form....They were just the first questions the DR. asked when he came into the exam room. I have no control over what my daughter does, but in my wife's case, we changed doctors and we also found one that hunts and fishes...We didn't know it at the time, but found out during converstations with him. No irrelevant questions with this one.

Charlie

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:39 pm

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-s ... 7788_n.jpg

Post by **Sharon** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:11 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
DogNewbie wrote:If you want a gun to protect your family, go get one...you'll have it well before anything bad happens. Someone threatens your family, go to the police like normal people. Someone robs your house, kick yourself for not buying a gun. People who aren't willing to wait two months for a gun probably aren't the type of people that would have a gun around anyway IMO. They're the people who get robbed and go buy a gun afterward. As for the hunting season, yes I agree that would be a huge bummer, but it's a small price to pay for making sure crazies can't get guns. Plus it gives you an excuse to buy back up guns
In a fictitious world your thoughts sound good but the only people waiting 2 months are the honest people. The crazies you speak of can get a gun in just an hour or quicker no matter how many laws you pass. I just got a couple less than 7 days ago. No one checked to see just how crazy I am even though my wife has told people for years.

Ezzy

Very different from Canada. I was suffering fron PTSD after an incident at the jail. I had to see a psychiatrist to keep my job. Soon as he found out I had guns he was required to phone the Police who then took my guns. Gun control is much more strict up here.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:16 pm

Very different indeed & we as FREE AMERICANS will do all we can to keep it DIFFERENT!!

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:24 pm

Sharon wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
DogNewbie wrote:If you want a gun to protect your family, go get one...you'll have it well before anything bad happens. Someone threatens your family, go to the police like normal people. Someone robs your house, kick yourself for not buying a gun. People who aren't willing to wait two months for a gun probably aren't the type of people that would have a gun around anyway IMO. They're the people who get robbed and go buy a gun afterward. As for the hunting season, yes I agree that would be a huge bummer, but it's a small price to pay for making sure crazies can't get guns. Plus it gives you an excuse to buy back up guns
In a fictitious world your thoughts sound good but the only people waiting 2 months are the honest people. The crazies you speak of can get a gun in just an hour or quicker no matter how many laws you pass. I just got a couple less than 7 days ago. No one checked to see just how crazy I am even though my wife has told people for years.

Ezzy

Very different from Canada. I was suffering fron PTSD after an incident at the jail. I had to see a psychiatrist to keep my job. Soon as he found out I had guns he was required to phone the Police who then took my guns. Gun control is much more strict up here.

The gun issue in Canada is a disaster and I think if you would get organized you could make some real changes in the laws that are wasting so many of your tax dollars. I know a large percentage of people are wanting things changed.

Ezzy

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:50 pm

We actually have made good progress lately. WE voted in a govt. who eliminated the Registry. No need to register a new gun or a gun being sold now.

Still strict rules about who can have a firearm cerificate. Requires an interview with the firearm's officer and a safety gun use course.

We don't mind that . I think the US of A has let the pendulum swing too far to the other side but realize we both have different histories.

(Both of us struggle with guns sold on the black market.)

BigTub · Post by **BigTub** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:12 pm

It would be interesting to do a poll over here. Over on the Sportsman's Journal the it is running 31:6. It started off 24:1.

I figured I would get kicked off here if I ran it over here.

markj · Post by **markj** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:06 pm

What waiting period? I can go into any gun shop in Iowa and walk out with a gun, handgun, rifle, whatever I want.

Guns are a major part of our heritage and history, just how would any form of govt try to get them from us? read a story once aboutit called the chicken that thought the sky was falling down...

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:19 pm

markj wrote:What waiting period? I can go into any gun shop in Iowa and walk out with a gun, handgun, rifle, whatever I want.

Guns are a major part of our heritage and history, just how would any form of govt try to get them from us? read a story once aboutit called the chicken that thought the sky was falling down...

This is the attitude that is really scary!

Charlie

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:15 am

markj wrote:What waiting period? I can go into any gun shop in Iowa and walk out with a gun, handgun, rifle, whatever I want.

Guns are a major part of our heritage and history, just how would any form of govt try to get them from us? read a story once aboutit called the chicken that thought the sky was falling down...

I'll answer that Mark... Put a frog in a pot of boiling water... He'll jump right out... Put him in a pot of cool water and put it on the stove... turn on the heat... He'll sit there and boil... gradual change is the enemy of the complacent. There are too many complacent gun owners that feel we cannot lose our rights. If anyone thinks that there is not a patient, concerted effort to end gun ownership diligently working towards that goal... I would say they are a frog on the stove and the heat is on...

JMHO.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:17 pm

SHORTFAT wrote:
markj wrote:What waiting period? I can go into any gun shop in Iowa and walk out with a gun, handgun, rifle, whatever I want.

Guns are a major part of our heritage and history, just how would any form of govt try to get them from us? read a story once aboutit called the chicken that thought the sky was falling down...
I'll answer that Mark... Put a frog in a pot of boiling water... He'll jump right out... Put him in a pot of cool water and put it on the stove... turn on the heat... He'll sit there and boil... gradual change is the enemy of the complacent. There are too many complacent gun owners that feel we cannot lose our rights. If anyone thinks that there is not a patient, concerted effort to end gun ownership diligently working towards that goal... I would say they are a frog on the stove and the heat is on... JMHO.

SHORTFAT, good post, and it is not just your humble opinion, it is a fact! Complacency is probably our worst enemy.

Charlie

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:40 pm

Well, another mall shooting by a crazy. I'm sure you've all heard by now. Sounds like this is one example of how waiting periods/background checks wouldn't matter. I guess the kid stole the gun from a friend. Thankfully the gun jammed to slow his destruction. Sure makes me sad every time I read another one of these.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi- ... 1227.story

Post by **topher40** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:21 pm

How is this possible? Murder is Illegal, that should keep everyone from having to fear being murdered! All guns should be illegal, that would change gun violence since everyone :roll: follows the current laws on the books so lets make more. (Piece of advice to you all of out there, speeding it also illegal. I am sure none of us drive to fast thoug

h)

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:59 pm

topher40 wrote:How is this possible? Murder is Illegal, that should keep everyone from having to fear being murdered! All guns should be illegal, that would change gun violence since everyone :roll: follows the current laws on the books so lets make more. (Piece of advice to you all of out there, speeding it also illegal. I am sure none of us drive to fast thoug h)

How does having empathy for the loss of innocent life elicit a sarcastic out lash from you? Obviously, I'm not anti gun, so save your breath. And, btw, comparing speeding to cold blooded murder is simply ridiculous. With your logic, those crimes should have equal punishments. You really believe going 5 mph over the speed limit should land you in jail for life, or that killing two strangers for the sake of killing them should result in only a $100 fine?

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:19 pm

DogNewbie wrote:
topher40 wrote:How is this possible? Murder is Illegal, that should keep everyone from having to fear being murdered! All guns should be illegal, that would change gun violence since everyone :roll: follows the current laws on the books so lets make more. (Piece of advice to you all of out there, speeding it also illegal. I am sure none of us drive to fast thoug h)
How does having empathy for the loss of innocent life elicit a sarcastic out lash from you? Obviously, I'm not anti gun, so save your breath. And, btw, comparing speeding to cold blooded murder is simply ridiculous. With your logic, those crimes should have equal punishments. You really believe going 5 mph over the speed limit should land you in jail for life, or that killing two strangers for the sake of killing them should result in only a $100 fine?

I believe Topher along with a lot of others on here don't believe a waiting period is going to stop any killing, you were the one that brought of the waiting period, so don't be surprised when someone expresses their opinion on it.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:29 pm

In the post he was reacting to, I made the point of saying the waiting period wouldn't have stopped these murders because he stole the gun. If anything I was adding fueling to your argument.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:57 pm

DogNewbie wrote:In the post he was reacting to, I made the point of saying the waiting period wouldn't have stopped these murders because he stole the gun. If anything I was adding fueling to your argument.

I don't believe you intended to start an argument , however when you make the comment about the waiting period I wasn't surprised when someone else weighed in, that is all. I don't believe that Topher was trying to be sarcastic about loss of life.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:22 pm

DogNewbie wrote:How does having empathy for the loss of innocent life elicit a sarcastic out lash from you? Obviously, I'm not anti gun, so save your breath. And, btw, comparing speeding to cold blooded murder is simply ridiculous. With your logic, those crimes should have equal punishments. You really believe going 5 mph over the speed limit should land you in jail for life, or that killing two strangers for the sake of killing them should result in only a $100 fine?

When one is empathetic they generally understand where accountability should be placed, when they are sympathetic often they have allowed hyper emotion to to rule their thoughts and behavior, the latter has its place especially in grief. Where it does not serve well is in the process of leadership and critical decision making. What if we set the second amendment aside and concentrate on the first. What if I told you countless more people are killed by the careless and nefarious use of the internet than by private gun ownership legal and otherwise? In example; cases of cyber bullying where poking fun at the effeminate kid has broken out of the confines of the school yard to family, friends, neighborhoods and cities and the exposure has a direct correlation to these kids tragically killing themselves. Or those that access information on Asphyxiation games tempts the unknowing to hang themselves, or on a more grandiose scale; Wikileaks leading to death of U.S. troops or its allies. Cause and effect is pretty tangible in most tragedies the ideology gap almost always comes in where the accountability lies in the proposed solution. Bob Costas would never suggest or envision a state controlled media or internet but he is an emotional guy and he would rather absorb some negative consequences on humanity rather than giving up his free speech. I would guess he believes its the cornerstone of freedom and it has created an industry that pays him very well. Sympathy is wonderful when you have a boo-boo on your knee, it has even become the badge of honor for your modern metro-sexual man, it is quite a movement and it will be the undoing of the republic if more pragmatic minds do not prevail.

DogNewbie wrote:In the post he was reacting to, I made the point of saying the waiting period wouldn't have stopped these murders because he stole the gun. If anything I was adding fueling to your argument.

So then what is your point? Are you just pointing out the tragedies to show you care? Is your solution gun control or do you have behavioral modification in mind? Government spending has doubled in under 2 decades let's get passionate about that, there is not a single new law that can be crafted to change our culture to the positive. In my opinion the only solution is to reduce the nanny state mentality, elect leaders who are pragmatic, thicken our skins a bit, take the lumps and be patient why the culture swings back.

Post by **topher40** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:30 pm

Come on folk Newbie, you are obviously also new to common sense. Hope that bit of sarcasm didnt offend you in light of people being murdered EVERY day across this nation by LAW BREAKERS. The best defense against crime surely isnt laws, people that want to break the law dont care what the law says so this cannot and HASNT prevented any violence. Grow a spine and get off your holier than thou pedestal. An armed society is a prepared society and this has proven to reduce crime when LAW ABIDING citizens are armed and posess the appropriate respect of the power they hold. How's that for a lash................. :roll:

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:34 am

The only point I was trying to make was that this tragedy helps me see your view point better. I'm not closed minded in my views and have no problem saying I can see where you are coming from. I didn't take any offense, I just thought it was a strange reaction to what I thought was a pretty mild post, that's all. I would like to see the data on an armed society reducing crime if you're able to post it or point me in the right direction, though.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:51 am

DogNewbie wrote: I would like to see the data on an armed society reducing crime if you're able to post it or point me in the right direction, though.

I think that is a fair question; and I, like you, would love a verified non-partisan answer that could be presented to anyone short of the delusional and have it change minds. Unfortunately, data that prevents or precludes a happening is never very well documented. Private businesses do a reasonable job in studying behavior for safety and other reasons, but that data would serve the bloated government very little purpose in the subject matter at hand. There fore it is my belief that it can only be explained in a very micro or a very macro way and I will do my best to provide examples that may or may not resonate...

In the micro, the following news story is an example that could point out a termination of violent crime on a scale that can never be confirmed, it may have been an isolated incident avoided and it may have been a gateway terminated to serial violent crime... http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/06/te ... -with-gun/

In the macro we can look at examples that go both ways...
The U.S. was founded on and freed by colonists who took up arms against what they deemed a tyranical government. In a stroke of irony, these same colonists invaded and overcame a less organized, poorly armed society of natives and forever changed their way of life.

Again in the macro...

NEWS BRIEF: Letter written to the Orange Country Register (8/04/99), Australia.

"It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed, a program costing the government more than $500 million dollars. And now the results are in: Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent; Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent; Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent). In the state of Victoria, homicides with firearms are up 300 percent. Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms (changed drastically in the past 12months). There has been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly."

Again in the way Macro and I love this one, it is from a liberal fact check site called the Straight Dope and this is their quote ... [quoteThe Nazis did pass a weapons law in 1938, but that only added restrictions to the previous law, especially for Jews and other "non-citizens."
]

only for Jews...how great is that?

Joe

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:31 am

To be honest, the first example doesn't do much to convince me just because I feel like for every positive out come, there are negative ones too. This one happened this week in MN.

http://www.startribune.com/local/183004911.html?refer=y

The Australia one is much more interesting. The news brief says that it was a letter written to the paper. Can those statistics be verified?

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:39 am

Yes they can but if you really want to know you will go look...you are getting lazy and I will not be out lazyed ..I have made that clear before. There are plenty of facts for those with common sense and depth enough in their intellect to draw conclusions.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:47 am

Don't have the time to do this properly at the moment, but just doing a quick search for studies on the Australian gun laws, I think this one is considered the most accurate.

http://andrewleigh.org/pdf/GunBuyback_Panel.pdf

Just skimmed real quick, but looks like they found high evidence gun suicide rates dropped significantly (makes sense...not sure if total suicide rate dropped?) but not as significant of a drop in violent gun crimes...but they seem to have found a small decline. IDK, read it if you want. I'm going to read it in more detail later.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:50 am

the U.S. shows periodic reduction as well ..data will only tell you what you want it to...

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:39 pm

DogNewbie wrote:Don't have the time to do this properly at the moment, but just doing a quick search for studies on the Australian gun laws, I think this one is considered the most accurate.

http://andrewleigh.org/pdf/GunBuyback_Panel.pdf

Just skimmed real quick, but looks like they found high evidence gun suicide rates dropped significantly (makes sense...not sure if total suicide rate dropped?) but not as significant of a drop in violent gun crimes...but they seem to have found a small decline. IDK, read it if you want. I'm going to read it in more detail later.

Are you serious? Suicide rates have nothing to do with gun ownership other than the method of them taking their own life. Those serious about suicide will do it, no matter what. Those who do not are looking for attention.

I would go further but do not want to hurt "feelings"......

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:48 pm

ultracarry wrote:
DogNewbie wrote:Don't have the time to do this properly at the moment, but just doing a quick search for studies on the Australian gun laws, I think this one is considered the most accurate.

http://andrewleigh.org/pdf/GunBuyback_Panel.pdf

Just skimmed real quick, but looks like they found high evidence gun suicide rates dropped significantly (makes sense...not sure if total suicide rate dropped?) but not as significant of a drop in violent gun crimes...but they seem to have found a small decline. IDK, read it if you want. I'm going to read it in more detail later.

Are you serious? Suicide rates have nothing to do with gun ownership other than the method of them taking their own life. Those serious about suicide will do it, no matter what. Those who do not are looking for attention.

I would go further but do not want to hurt "feelings"......

I wasn't trying to imply they do...in fact I agree they don't. I wasn't stating any personal conclusions to the study's results. I was simply trying to sum up the study as best I could from the little I had read of it so far. The study looked at the effects of guns on suicide rates and gun related homicides. They found a large drop in gun suicide rates (duh! was my first thought) and a small drop in gun homicides (more on topic to this thread.) Again, I haven't had time to look at the data or the other studies sited so I can formulate an opinion. I just went straight to the results/conclusions and skimmed what they found. Also, don't hold back on saying what's on your mind on my account. I've got thick skin and even thicker internet skin. I really wasn't trying to work people up by posting in this thread again. From what I remember from the start of this thread, everything was fairly civil so I'm just a little surprised my new posts have rubbed people the wrong way.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:27 pm

An on the ball Police Officer found a 'big' gun in the lady's trash pail in the MacDonalds by my house yesterday. Was another mass shooting being planned? We Canadians certaily have our gun problems too.

( I did read that in USA "More family members are accidently killed by a gun than intruders killed". quote Piers Morgan.

Post by **topher40** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:08 pm

Who was the Japanese man in the 2 world war the stated something to the effect, America will never be invaded because behind every blade of grass there will be a gun. Seems to be he may have been onto something and provides good reason to arm ourselves despite how people over here decide to kill eachother or themselves. If you take away guns there are MUCH more ways to kill than with a gun. Should we outlaw rope?

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:13 pm

I swore I would not do this yet here I go...these are two unrelated sets of sources to view...FBI crime statistics and Gallup's poll of gun ownership.

here is a site that will inundate you with data ... http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

FBI Website

Overview
■In 2011, an estimated 1,203,564 violent crimes occurred nationwide, a decrease of 3.8 percent from the 2010 estimate.
■When considering 5- and 10-year trends, the 2011 estimated violent crime total was 15.4 percent below the 2007 level and 15.5 percent below the 2002 level.
■There were an estimated 386.3 violent crimes per 100,000 inhabitants in 2011.
■Aggravated assaults accounted for the highest number of violent crimes reported to law enforcement at 62.4 percent. Robbery comprised 29.4 percent of violent crimes, forcible rape accounted for 6.9 percent, and murder accounted for 1.2 percent of estimated violent crimes in 2011.
■Information collected regarding type of weapon showed that firearms were used in 67.7 percent of the nation’s murders, 41.3 percent of robberies, and 21.2 percent of aggravated assaults. (Weapons data are not collected for forcible rape.) (See Expanded Homicide Data Table 7, Robbery Table 3, and the Aggravated Assault Table.)

[quote

][/quote]

This really is my last bit of wasted time and attempt to present data to produce common sense. This is truly a Constitutional question and one of ideology that asks how big and how much control do you want the government of free men to have?

DogNewbie wrote:I don't know the perfect solution, but I do know that I'm sick of hearing about crazy people murdering innocent people every 5 months in this country, usually with legally bought guns. Sure, it's not going to fix the drug and gang violence issue because they buy guns on the black market, but at least some lives could be saved by it. I'd just like to see us take steps towards finding a solution.

DogNewbie wrote:so I'm just a little surprised my new posts have rubbed people the wrong way.

I suppose you get a bit of ire from the populace here because you could reasonably expect this group to be pro-gun and personal protection...I know that is the case with me. And while I stop short of being rubbed the wrong way I do take umbrage and like to clarify with folks that they are NOT more distraught about senseless death than I am. Because I oppose Welfare as a lifestyle does not mean I am pro starving child, I think you get the picture. I also admit to having little patience with innocuous inquisition that has a hidden agenda... that is a mother-in- law move. It probably will not surprise you that I have little use for most business consultants and career students as well.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:40 pm

topher40 wrote:Who was the Japanese man in the 2 world war the stated something to the effect, America will never be invaded because behind every blade of grass there will be a gun. Seems to be he may have been onto something and provides good reason to arm ourselves despite how people over here decide to kill eachother or themselves. If you take away guns there are MUCH more ways to kill than with a gun. Should we outlaw rope?

Just like Red Dawn. Love that movie. Here's another academic article that came out of Yale. Again, I only skimmed the conclusions, but it sounds like they found the opposite results as the other study I posted.

http://johnrlott.tripod.com/Maltz.pdf

Interestingly, they found that more guns in community resulted in less gun homicides, but more non gun homicides.

Post by **topher40** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:20 pm

Newb_
Do You feel better being armed and able to defend yourself? Are you legal? Who is still committing gun crimes? CRIMINALS

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:11 pm

I was going to suggest you look up John Lotts works. He has spent years investigating and recording all of the data through out the country. I would be more than willing to hang my hat on his work.

Ezzy

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:55 pm

If you take into account how many stupid people there are I'm this country someone who accidentally kills themself with a gun would fall under the term "thinning the herd".

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:55 pm

Apparently it is family children who shoot themselves or their friend accidently.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:33 pm

I would say careless owners..... But if you have a gun and don't teach your kid gun safety, you are probably stupid also..... We grew up with a lot in our house, some locked up, others not. We knew no matter what, if we touched, looked at, showed, or even thought of the above without dads directions, it might be him who thinned the herd.

I would expect a responsible gun owner if they had a child to do the same and make sure rules were to.be understood and followed. No excuses.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:40 am

ezzy333 wrote:I was going to suggest you look up John Lotts works. He has spent years investigating and recording all of the data through out the country. I would be more than willing to hang my hat on his work.

Ezzy

Yeah, that second paper I posted I found on his website. They talk about/reference his earlier work throughout the paper.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:41 am

ultracarry wrote:I would say careless owners..... But if you have a gun and don't teach your kid gun safety, you are probably stupid also..... We grew up with a lot in our house, some locked up, others not. We knew no matter what, if we touched, looked at, showed, or even thought of the above without dads directions, it might be him who thinned the herd.

I would expect a responsible gun owner if they had a child to do the same and make sure rules were to.be understood and followed. No excuses.

My dad hid the trigger lock keys from us until we were well into high school and able to go hunting on our own.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:50 am

topher40 wrote:Newb_
Do You feel better being armed and able to defend yourself? Are you legal? Who is still committing gun crimes? CRIMINALS

It's not me I'm worried about, its the people that are arming themselves and can't handle the massive responsibility that comes with it that make me nervous. It's the same with driving. I know I'm a good driver, but who knows what the guy next to me is doing. Of course, that doesn't keep me from driving so that logic may not stand.

Post by **topher40** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:08 pm

your right it doesnt>