A story

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DonF
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A story

Post by DonF » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:49 pm

Bubba was away from home for a few weeks and while he was gone, the rest of the church elders were supposed to get some new light's for the church. Well one of them went out and found a beautiful chandler, it cost $150. So they tossed it around and decided to get the chandler. they got it and had it installed in the church and it was beautiful! Week or so later Bubba got back into town and the rest of the elder's told him what they had done. Then they took him to the church to see the new chandler. Bubba took one look then turned to the rest of the elders and said, "I can't believe you guy's spent $150 on that when what we really needed was some lights"!

Kind of reminds me of all the things put into our electric training aides these days.
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Re: A story

Post by campgsp » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:36 pm

So true.

I seldom use my collar for training and when I do use it, (turned on) its usually brief. I've had better results in using a cc, my hands, and voice intertwined with knowledge then any collar could ever compare to. Think some rely so much on the $$$ collar and all its godly features that they forget, all it takes a human, their knowledge/light), time, effort, and patience to make or break a dog, not an object with a 1 mile zapping range. If you have complete control near you you'll have complete control farther away.. that's what it all falls down to.
Break them here and enforce it out there.

The collar has its benefits but it's not a necessity.. Jmho.

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Re: A story

Post by BC Hunter » Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:36 pm

I bought a tracking collar 4-5 yrs ago was on my dogs once
My friend a pro from down south has been coming to the Candian
praries for 30 plus years ,said to me we only came here with a check cord
if they were not smart enough to chek in they were not worth keeping! 8)

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Re: A story

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:46 pm

Every pro that I know uses the e collar. If you use it right it's the most valuable tool in the box!

Doug

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Re: A story

Post by BC Hunter » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:18 pm

I will clarife ! he now uses trackers and e collars ,
but still loves the old way!

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Re: A story

Post by birddogger » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:32 pm

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Every pro that I know uses the e collar. If you use it right it's the most valuable tool in the box!

Doug
+1

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A story

Post by cmc274 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:43 pm

birddogger wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Every pro that I know uses the e collar. If you use it right it's the most valuable tool in the box!

Doug
+1

Charlie
+2. Have heard a bunch of folks talk about how the variable stimulation collar and modern dog food were the biggest advancements in the last 40 years.

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Re: A story

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:31 am

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Every pro that I know uses the e collar. If you use it right it's the most valuable tool in the box!

Doug
Its not even close to being the most "valuable" tool in the box. A place to train and access to birds is much higher on the "valuable" list of tools.

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Re: A story

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:59 am

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Every pro that I know uses the e collar. If you use it right it's the most valuable tool in the box!

Doug
Its not even close to being the most "valuable" tool in the box. A place to train and access to birds is much higher on the "valuable" list of tools.
You sure sound like you're pretty smart. Tell me how you fit those things in your tool box.

Doug

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Re: A story

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:00 am

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Every pro that I know uses the e collar. If you use it right it's the most valuable tool in the box!

Doug
Its not even close to being the most "valuable" tool in the box. A place to train and access to birds is much higher on the "valuable" list of tools.
You sure sound like you're pretty smart. Tell me how you fit those things in your tool box.

Doug
I never claimed to be smart but tools don't have to fit in a "box".

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Re: A story

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:09 am

BC Hunter wrote:I will clarife ! he now uses trackers and e collars ,
but still loves the old way!
I was going to say....if he kept coming back with out his customers dogs, he would not be in business very long :lol:

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Re: A story

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:21 am

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Every pro that I know uses the e collar. If you use it right it's the most valuable tool in the box!

Doug
I never claimed to be smart but tools don't have to fit in a "box".
[/quote]
I thought the thread was about e collars.

Doug

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Re: A story

Post by DonF » Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:58 pm

not necessarily about e-collars but gadget's some don't to be to live without. the modern e-collars are way better than the early one's but how much stuff we gonna put in them just to get people to buy them? How about remote release traps. They have them where you can shove a bird in the back and I think someone make's noise's so we can find them. Finding a trap has never been a problem, I pay attention when i put the out. How about the collar's that give off the hawk scream? I don't know who thought that idea up but what a gimmick for selling collars. imagine if the thing was programmed so it could sense the bird move ever so slightly and emit another scream. No longer a need for the dog other than to find the bird and sit and wait for you! My dogtra collars have 100+ different levels of stimulation to fine tune to the individual dog? Then there are the collars than work two or more dogs at the same time. if you have a dog down that needs you to pay attention to it, you need to pay attention to it. My dogtra's have three different buttons, nic, constant and tone. My old DT 300 had one button that i could nic or go constant with; had instant juice and could control the nic with your finger. A friend had an old tri-tronic,s 90, I think it was the 90. it would give the dog a warning buzzer before hitting the dog and had another you hit after the dog did what you wanted that was supposed to mean good dog. the me that was the bigest POS they ever made. Some of you guy's remember the original 100? Two buttons one being the nic button. That wwas a goo collar. But seem's since that one the collar manufacturer's are looking for more reason to put extra buttons and switch's on them.

I just sent the tracking collar I got back for a credit to get a different one. The idea of the one I sent back was great. All it did was show you where the dog was, how far off and which direction it was going. Great idea but wasn't accurate worth a darn. Oh yea, it would track up to a bunch of dogs at one time, couldn't do one accurately! Had they made the thing to do one maybe two at a time, they could have used the extra money it cost to develop it on making it accurate, would have been great. Now I am having the one most consider best sent out. From everything I read and all the people I see using it with good results, I've no doubt it will work properly. But why does anyone need all the maps they claim are in there?

The whole point is, manufacturer's keep putting more and more into the electronic's than is really needed. if you want to train with an e-collar, you really only need one button and instant stimulation. And why would you have two dogs down at one time if you really needed collar's on both? I can buy that in fact i do that. each dog has it's own collar and transmitter! Oh, forgot. The newer tracking collar's that are also training collars. This is good, assuming they worked as claimed, who is gonna shock a dog 7 miles off?
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Re: A story

Post by asc » Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:36 am

I like the maps when we run deer hounds, I can see if the dogs are getting close to a road or private property and cut them off.

It is a pretty hefty fine for dogs running on private property here and after so many violations a lease could lose their state registration to run dogs.
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Re: A story

Post by SHORTFAT » Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:23 pm

I like my truck... that way, I don't have to walk all the way to where I hunt... perhaps as things get "invented" with time and testing, they prove themselves to be useful, or not... some things are useful tools... some are just gadgets... use what you like and find to be reliable.
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Re: A story

Post by displaced_texan » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:34 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Every pro that I know uses the e collar. If you use it right it's the most valuable tool in the box!

Doug
Its not even close to being the most "valuable" tool in the box. A place to train and access to birds is much higher on the "valuable" list of tools.
I have a bag I carry my training stuff in, how do I fit land and birds in there, because I imagine that would be really handy.
DonF wrote: And why would you have two dogs down at one time if you really needed collar's on both? I can buy that in fact i do that. each dog has it's own collar and transmitter!
One transmitter, two collars. I rarely use either collar, but I'd rather have a half mile long check cord I don't use, than wish I had a half mile long check cord.
I have English Pointers because they don't ever grow up either...

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Re: A story

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:17 am

The manufacturers are like the computer companies, they want you to believe you need a new one every year. Their market is small and limited so the need the "planned obsolescence".

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Re: A story

Post by roaniecowpony » Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:39 am

Good thread. It reminds me of "A few minutes with Andy Rooney" segment of 60 Minutes. To me, it was the only minutes worht watching on that show. But that's another story.

I think its great that consumer electronics keep evolving. Although its funny to look back some of the stuff they've made and we've used. You can see they're starting to get sophisticated enough to where some electronic products are totally tailorable to the user's desires. E-collars and GPS collars aren't there yet. I think electronics and software engineers are evolving the products so fast that they've learned how to do something better before the hardware can be produced. Sure they put more features into most electronics these days than any one person will likely use. But some will use different features than others. The real "nirvana" will arrive when we can shut off features to configure a device to exactly what we want.

IMO, the Garmin Alpha is an example of "the kids" completely run amuck. There's more stuff on that device than any one person will likely ever learn how to use, let alone actually put to use. And its not intuitively obvious how to use it. Still, I think its currently the best option for a combination gps/e-collar.

Airplane electronics (avionics) is where the biggest development has been in commercial aviation for the past 20-25 years. They're going thru the same evolution consumer electronics are going thru.

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Re: A story

Post by fishvik » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:07 am

I think we all need to get used to the idea that electronics will be the base of our society and the generation coming out of college has been raised on it and is totally dependent on it. I have summer seasonals and they do all the data recording on electronic tablets or other hand-held devices. I still like water proof data sheets and pencils, no batterys to worry about and they can get wet. I can't let my seasonal crews go out without a cell phone and GPS. If they do I've had them all give me a sock, so the search dogs have something to go on. :lol:

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Re: A story

Post by markj » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:47 am

Electric stuff is real keen, until the electricity runs out. Best have the dog well trained at that point. Old ways still have their uses as do the new ways. Use the method you choose and have fun with it. And I never saw a person train a dog to completion in his back yard in the city...... birds and land to run them on is needed. The e stuff is just for you, not the dog. He just wants to hunt.
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Re: A story

Post by birddog1968 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:11 pm

our electric stuff is just as useful as hands, check cords and voice....and you still have to use knowledge to use them. Your not getting around any corners with electric stuff you still have to think and adapt and train the dog, but it sure is nice and useful to have a tool like an ecollar. If anyone thinks it doest take knowledge to use it or your going to actually train with it only, the thinking is misinformed at best.

I personally have seen the checkcord used wrongly or harshly, hands used harshly much much more than an ecollar.....Using ones brain is the most important thing regardless of the tools used.


Personally I hate checkcords, Delmar said when you snap a checkcord on a pup you just took all the freedom he's ever known (or something to that effect) not so with an ecollar .as long as you can
keep yourself from unnecessarily pressing buttons trying to over control a pup, just like most people do with a checkcord. In the end its about using your brain and being thoughtful in your use of the tools we have.

as far as trackers, old style or new style with or without maps....its all just information. sure you want a dog checks in naturally but It sure is nice to walk straight to a point rather than look for a dog on point for 30 minutes. Run offs are run offs and nobody wants one tracking device or not.
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Re: A story

Post by roaniecowpony » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:29 pm

Good provocative thoughts from you guys, Mark and birddog.

I think another way to look at "the electric stuff", when referring to gps, rather than look at with "when the electricity runs out" is to think 'when the training isn't as good as you thought' or things don't go as planned, you have a safety net. You have a layer of redundancy on top of the quality of your training. Just a positive way to look at it. If you don't have a big running breed, gps probably isn't warranted.

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Re: A story

Post by markj » Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:16 am

I'm not knocking it, no, I am saying shouldnt rely only upon the e collar. I see many young hunters doing so, and using it incorrectly. I'm not smart enough to use one :) so I rely on simple training, its how I learned way long ago. In the 60s we had nothing but ourselves :) imagine an e collar at that time, woulda been 6 tons and used a long cord lol like the puters of the time.

I still like to rely upon the delmar smith method, before ecollar.

As the man said, "It worked for Dad." :) it works for me, and I am teaching my son same basic methods.
Best to have control of the animal without any outside stimulus. Takes lots of time and repition, and a huge bag of treats to get em started. Positive reinforcement is what thats called, works for almost anything you wanta train. From a steer to a cat ask any 4H shower :)
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Re: A story

Post by birddog1968 » Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:20 am

markj wrote:I'm not knocking it, no, I am saying shouldnt rely only upon the e collar. I see many young hunters doing so, and using it incorrectly. I'm not smart enough to use one :) so I rely on simple training, its how I learned way long ago. In the 60s we had nothing but ourselves :) imagine an e collar at that time, woulda been 6 tons and used a long cord lol like the puters of the time.

I still like to rely upon the delmar smith method, before ecollar.

As the man said, "It worked for Dad." :) it works for me, and I am teaching my son same basic methods.
Best to have control of the animal without any outside stimulus. Takes lots of time and repition, and a huge bag of treats to get em started. Positive reinforcement is what thats called, works for almost anything you wanta train. From a steer to a cat ask any 4H shower :)

I can't even fathom a way to rely ONLY on an ecollar.....as far as those doing so....I'd question if their dogs are trained at all or if they were sent off to be trained and operate in the field despite incorrect use......again I know of no way to ONLY rely on a collar.
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Re: A story

Post by roaniecowpony » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:37 am

I have never seen anyone that totally relied on an e-collar. Especially a hunting dog trainer/owner. But I've seen some heavy reliance beyond what I thought was beneficial. I have seen some pet owners that had gone overboard and thought pushing a button could substitute for training.

Those Trtronics videos might lead viewers to think using an e-collar for initial training of a task is the right thing to do.

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Re: A story

Post by markj » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:03 pm

But I've seen some heavy reliance beyond what I thought was beneficial
I would probably fry the dog :) in my upset mood :) and tell me a dog never gets his owner upset :) I use the petsafe in ground fence collars. Thats about all the electricity I wish to use. I do have a sd e collar, I put it on my arm and hit the full level, that thing hurt! Wow. So I just resort to useing it on my younger brother, :) gotta calm him down at times, he lived in calif for 17 years and didnt see birds like I show him here :) shot my truck one time he did :) lol

In the 60s Isaw guys shoot at their dogs, tried to skip the shot on the ground first. I was a kid and thought that was not a good idea...

Saw another guy brought out with a friend kinda thing, pick up his one year old setter and slam it to the ground in front of my 10 year old nephew too. Gotta watch out for some of them "hunters"
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Re: A story

Post by birddog1968 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:49 pm

markj wrote: and tell me a dog never gets his owner upset :) "

This is where I made my greatest stride, personally, as a trainer. I finally learned how to put my emotions aside and not sabotage sessions with the dog. You don't have to visibly get angry, they can smell you just beginning to get heated and its counter productive. If i even think I'm going to get slightly aggravated its time to call it a day, before it happens.
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: A story

Post by markj » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:41 pm

I finally learned how to put my emotions aside and not sabotage sessions with the dog
Ya, I dont get upset on training, no I get upset when they jump up and sling poo on me, or jump up on someones new shirt. Stuff like that. Training I just laff off and try another day. Treats get their attention and most dogs will die for a treat :)

After 50 years with dogs, I kinda got a slight handle on em :)
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Re: A story

Post by birddog1968 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:48 pm

I hear ya Mark, only took me half a lifetime to figure it out :wink:
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Re: A story

Post by birddogger » Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:45 pm

Putting emotions aside is probably the most important thing we can do to be successful in training dogs. As far as e-collars are concerned, once they are introduced properly and the dog is conditioned properly, you rarely have to use it. I trained dogs years ago with good results without electronics, but I had to use harsher methods, especially with some "head strong" dogs. The e-collar has made it so much easier on the dogs and myself.

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Re: A story

Post by markj » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am

I would like a GPS locator on a collar :) with an app to show me the area dog is in. On my smart phone (Dont have one but would get one for this). The apps built here at the college for the educators are way kewl. Maybe I need to get someone on this? The students love to tackle stuff likee this. Just need a small gps locator will fit on a collar and has wifi capability lol I crack myself up at times....
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