Pistol for bears?

deke · Post by **deke** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:14 pm

We are going bow hunting this year, and there has been quite a few bear sightings. I carry a glock .40 on a daily basis and was wondering if that would be enough to stop a small black bear. I know a .44 mag or .357 would be much better, but if I can avoid buying another gun my bank account would be very thankful. The bears are not monster black bears, the guy whose cabin we are staying at said that if we run across a 500lb bear that would be like winning the lotto. I don't plan on shooting a bear, if I can avoid it, but I know the country we are hunting in and the chances of stumbling upon one is somewhat decent. Also, would you use hollow points for small black bears, or a fmj? What grain bullet?

Gordon Guy · Post by **Gordon Guy** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:33 pm

If you there with a buddy, shoot your buddy in the leg so the bear goes after him. Any caliber would work.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:38 pm

I guided black bear for a few years and I never carried a pistol, black bear are not aggressive they look to avoid people. Carry the .40 if it makes you feel better, or bring a large bell

, don't waste your money on anything else.

deke · Post by **deke** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:55 pm

Gordon guy, I will be hunting with my brother, so that would make for an akward family reunion.

Nike, That is what I have heard, I also heard that if they are hit with an arrow they will focus there frustration on the arrow, or the wound the arrow made thinking that they are getting attacked by a bee or something else? Any truth to that?

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:01 pm

deke wrote:Gordon guy, I will be hunting with my brother, so that would make for an akward family reunion.

Nike, That is what I have heard, I also heard that if they are hit with an arrow they will focus there frustration on the arrow, or the wound the arrow made thinking that they are getting attacked by a bee or something else? Any truth to that?

In most cases they bolt when hit, we have never had one charge or look for something to charge after being hit, however they do sometimes spin looking to see what hit them. In MN you can choose to hunt with any weapon, so if a bear is wounded we track them with rifle (or slug gun) at the ready. I'm more worried about those anger packs of coyotes that are killing people right and left. :roll:

ibbowhunting · Post by **ibbowhunting** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:50 pm

I carry my 40 cal when we bow hunt for bears, I used it last night to track my wifes bear, mine holds at least ten rounds, I can't imagine not stopping a bear at point bank with a 40 cal with 10 rounds, my gun of choice would be a 12 gauge with slugs for tracking

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:24 pm

deke wrote:Gordon guy, I will be hunting with my brother, so that would make for an akward family reunion.

Nike, That is what I have heard, I also heard that if they are hit with an arrow they will focus there frustration on the arrow, or the wound the arrow made thinking that they are getting attacked by a bee or something else? Any truth to that?

If he dies, it's not your fault he tripped and fell.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:22 am

displaced_texan wrote:
deke wrote:Gordon guy, I will be hunting with my brother, so that would make for an akward family reunion.

Nike, That is what I have heard, I also heard that if they are hit with an arrow they will focus there frustration on the arrow, or the wound the arrow made thinking that they are getting attacked by a bee or something else? Any truth to that?
If he dies, it's not your fault he tripped and fell.

If he dies and they pull a .40 slug from the bear, I will bury the guy myself.

jack the dog · Post by **jack the dog** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:06 am

I hunt in bear country also. Here in the mountains a 500 pounder is a whopper, but down in the eastern part of the state where we hunt waterfowl there are lots of them over 700 lbs.
Most black bears will generally do anything to avoid humans. But, there have been a couple of cases here in the mountains of bears killing humans.
So long story short, I carry a side arm (357) in bear country along with my shotgun, I've never had to use it on a bear but it makes me feel better, especially with as many hogs and yotes as we have anymore.
Whatever caliber you carry load it with FMJ for the bear. They have a pretty thick layer of fat generally, and the fat will expand the HP and not allow enough penetration for the handgun round to reach the vitals.
But a small bell on your boot lace will usually ensure that you never see a bear while out bird hunting.
IMO.

GrayDawg · Post by **GrayDawg** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:27 am

Bring this in with you, and feel safe.

Rob

markj · Post by **markj** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:12 am

What about bear spray?

I hear it works well.

A old guy in Yellowstone told my son to put peanut butter in my shoes, so he could get away while the bear eats me

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:32 am

The Glock will be fine, but it really isn't necessary for black bears...bonk them with a rock. The most dangerous black bears live out of ice chests and garbage cans, real ones in the wild are a non-factor. You may also consult the regulations, in my more serious bowhunting days in the west, nearly every stae sans Alaska prohibited firearms for carry in the act of bowhunting. That may not be the case any longer but its worth exploring.

GrayDawg · Post by **GrayDawg** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:16 pm

Chukar12 wrote:The Glock will be fine, but it really isn't necessary for black bears...bonk them with a rock. The most dangerous black bears live out of ice chests and garbage cans, real ones in the wild are a non-factor. You may also consult the regulations, in my more serious bowhunting days in the west, nearly every stae sans Alaska prohibited firearms for carry in the act of bowhunting. That may not be the case any longer but its worth exploring.

I bow hunted black bear in the spring back east for about 5-6 straight years........
Stumble across a sow and her cubs and startle her and then tell me how much of a "non-factor" she is. Also, an injured black bear or a bear that has just awoken from hibernation and is very hungry are not bears who I would prefer to run into..... As the first is desperate and the second is ornary!

Rob

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:33 pm

GrayDawg wrote:I bow hunted black bear in the spring back east for about 5-6 straight years........Stumble across a sow and her cubs and startle her and then tell me how much of a "non-factor" she is. Also, an injured black bear or a bear that has just awoken from hibernation and is very hungry are not bears who I would prefer to run into..... As the first is desperate and the second is ornary!Rob

Well there is certainly nothing wrong with being prepared if its legal. I have a couple hundred or more black bear contacts, albeit a fair number of them behind hounds. I may be desensitized to the critters, I cannot tell you the number of times I have collared dogs on a bayed bear and pulled the off and let them walk away but it is a lot. I do feel differently where they are desensitized. The bears in the Lake Tahoe basin are potentially dangerous. My relatives have a cabin in Tahoe Pines and the entire development has to bear proofed, they will literally break into cabins and ransack them... I have encountered them in the streets there and they make it clear things are on their schedule.

However, I still believe the bears in wilderness settings are far more likely to have the leave me be, I leave you be mentality. Don't drink and drive, don't get lost and fasten your seat belt are much greater risks on your hunting trip

deke · Post by **deke** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:39 pm

Chukar It is legal in Washington to carry a personal protection weapon while out bow hunting, as long as the weapon is not used to dispatch game. I have always hunted the Palouse where there is not much of a chance of running across a bear. For some reason bears give me the creeps, I would guess because I have never had to deal with them before.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:49 pm

..better safe than sorry if you can carry

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:58 pm

I have little bear experience, so I have stayed out of this. But to those that carry a side arm with a shot gun need to check the energy levels of each. I think you will find at the range most can hit with a pistol, the shotgun has more killing energy.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:06 pm

One summer in the Canadian Rockies at Lake Louise I spoke with a fellow at the ski resort where folks ride up the ski lift & hike down in the summertime. One of his duties was to keep track of the whereabouts of both the black bears & grizzlies on the hill. I asked him if there had ever been attacks, which he confirmed and questioned which species was more dangerous for hikers. Without hesitation he said it was the black bears. Explaining further he said they are generally quite timid but react much worse than grizzlies if accidentally surprised. My brother-in-law was attacked while black bear hunting over bait in northern MN. After baiting for a few weeks he settled down to hunt. A boar with a large head (he squared out smaller than his head looked) stopped at the edge of the small clearing, looked up at my brother-in-law in his tree stand, woofed once, jumped the bait pit & started up the tree at him. He stopped him with a 30-06. That was his first & last black bear hunt. He's an experienced woodsman raised in northern MN, in his late forties at the time, who had hunted & trapped all of his life.

I've spent most of my life walking & hunting the woods of northern MN. I've seen all sorts of critters including coyotes & timber wolves. Another brother-in-law & I smelled a black bear in the woods once but I've never seen a single black bear while out in the woods. There are an estimated 27,000 black bears in MN, about 800,000 (firearms, bow & blackpowder) deer hunters & 295,000 small game hunters. Black bear attacks are virtually unheard of. A .40 is plenty for a close side shot. I'd want more for trying to penetrate the skull or take out a front shoulder up close & personal.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:06 pm

I looked it up:

Shotgun muzzle energy 1700+ 50 yards 1400+

.40 pistol muzzle energy 460 50 yards 387

Even with bird shot, at the range most are accurate with a pistol, the shotgun out performs the pistol by 3 times. You would have to have some sand to hold your ground and wait, but a shotgun is a killer.

When bird hunting, leave the pistol at home, and carry slugs.

deke · Post by **deke** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:04 pm

Neil, If I could carry a shotgun I would be. If there was a chance of seeing grizzlys I would be taking my home defense shotgun with buckshot slug staggered.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:10 pm

Deke, I understand your situation, thought it was answered, your. 40 will do OK.

I was addressing the bird hunters that think they need a side arm, they don't.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:14 pm

Neil wrote:Deke, I understand your situation, thought it was answered, your. 40 will do OK.

I was addressing the bird hunters that think they need a side arm, they don't.

+1. Although, I see nothing wrong with carrying a side arm if it is legal and makes you feel better.

Charlie

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:51 pm

birddogger wrote:
Neil wrote:Deke, I understand your situation, thought it was answered, your. 40 will do OK.

I was addressing the bird hunters that think they need a side arm, they don't.
+1. Although, I see nothing wrong with carrying a side arm if it is legal and makes you feel better.

Charlie

Absolutely, it is when they try to sell me on doing so I object. Short of the Desert Eagle or whatever the big Smith is. 560? They are kidding themselves.

I am more than a fair hand with a pistol, Master level in NRA Silhouette and have shot Bullseye and Action Pistol, but know their limitations.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:15 pm

It'd be better to ask if any of the above posters recommending a .40 ever actually stopped a black bear charge with one. Bears can move at up to 50 feet per second. Forget about ten shot clips, you'd be lucky to get off more than one or two shots. The risk of an encounter away from bait is extremely low. Personally unless I wanted a gun to try & finish off an arrow wounded bear, I'd carry pepper spray. Used correctly it basically takes their breath away. Lots of internet articles about bullets vs. pepper spray. Here's one: http://www.bearsmart.com/docs/BearSprayVsBullets.pdf .

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:40 pm

Neil wrote:
birddogger wrote:
Neil wrote:Deke, I understand your situation, thought it was answered, your. 40 will do OK.

I was addressing the bird hunters that think they need a side arm, they don't.
+1. Although, I see nothing wrong with carrying a side arm if it is legal and makes you feel better.

Charlie
Absolutely, it is when they try to sell me on doing so I object. Short of the Desert Eagle or whatever the big Smith is. 560? They are kidding themselves.

I am more than a fair hand with a pistol, Master level in NRA Silhouette and have shot Bullseye and Action Pistol, but know their limitations.

Yes, if I thought I needed something more than a shotgun, it would be much bigger than a .40cal. But I would probably just stay home.

Charlie

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:24 pm

BigShooter wrote:It'd be better to ask if any of the above posters recommending a .40 ever actually stopped a black bear charge with one. Bears can move at up to 50 feet per second. Forget about ten shot clips, you'd be lucky to get off more than one or two shots. The risk of an encounter away from bait is extremely low. Personally unless I wanted a gun to try & finish off an arrow wounded bear, I'd carry pepper spray. Used correctly it basically takes their breath away. Lots of internet articles about bullets vs. pepper spray. Here's one: http://www.bearsmart.com/docs/BearSprayVsBullets.pdf .

Have you stopping a charging bear with pepper spray?

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:21 pm

I'm more worried about whether pepper spray will work on those anger packs of coyotes that are killing people right and left.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:58 pm

BigShooter wrote:I'm more worried about whether pepper spray will work on those anger packs of coyotes that are killing people right and left.

Nope don't work on Yotes. I emptied a can on a pack while the were chewing on my ankles. Yotes can read that it says bear spray.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:02 pm

Ruffshooter wrote:
BigShooter wrote:I'm more worried about whether pepper spray will work on those anger packs of coyotes that are killing people right and left.
Nope don't work on Yotes. I emptied a can on a pack while the were chewing on my ankles. Yotes can read that it says bear spray.

If you carry a hand gun a 44 mag or 500sw is a good choice and smaller than a shotgun. Besides they look cool and what a great excuse to get another weapon. You wound one and then track it in the night or into the brush, you might get a surprise. 95% of the time they try to get away. but that 5% they will come at you and can kill you. But if one comes up your stand you may need to bonk him on the nose before he gets to high.

Sodey · Post by **Sodey** » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:22 pm

This has been said but I wanted to reiterate it. Carry your .40 with FMJ rounds. Defense rounds won't work on a bear. The chance that you'll need it is slim but I'd rather be safe than sorry. No need to buy a new gun soley for that purpose. Fill that magazine. It'll do the job.

deke · Post by **deke** » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:38 pm

Well, the trip went good and no one needed to use their handguns. I did however run into two bears, they did not know I was there, so I just found a tree to hide next to as they passed. One of them winded me and took off, the other just waddled on by none the wiser that I was standing 20 feet from it. I was at full draw on both bears with my pistol un buttoned from the holster. We also saw a big brown bear, ( Cinnamon black bear or grizzly) We saw that one about an hour before first light driving down the logging road to where we parked the truck on the first morning. Besides that it was a good trip, four deer down total and my lady friend shot her first mule deer with a bow.

markj · Post by **markj** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:07 am

Sounds like a fun trip.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:45 pm

I read a lot where people go rifle hunting and want to carry a handgun as backup for bears. I just get this vision of a guy throwing down his 30-06 and grabbing his heater to cool off the bear! When I lived in Alaska I never gave a handgun a second though. Nothing one could do, my 308 couldn't do better. When I first got to Montana I found out there were grizzly's there. Wow, I didn't get a handgun for them, I got a 338 mag. I've never seen a grizzly in the wild, not even in Alaska and have only two time's ever run into a black bear out hunting something else. Both times they ran off without even knowing what scared them. I've killed a few and seem's to me they fall down with any hit and get back up and run a bit. I have heard a couple stories of blacks attacking people but they are few and far between. Want to have a good time hunting? If your camping out, sitting around the fire at night, pull out a copy of Alaska Bear Tales and read a few chapter's. Did that to my nephew years ago and he didn't sleep the whole night.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:30 pm

Funny thread. I've been bowhunting in blackbear country many times. I rarely thought of carrying a handgun out hunting with me. Some states don't allow it during bow only season. Carry the 40 if it makes you feel better. Use FMJ if you have a choice. Have a great hunt and don't worry.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:02 pm

not that all bears will take off at general yelling and rocks biggest thing is a well placed shot.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2 ... n-a-month/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/0 ... 61078.html

I actually would like to take a bear with my bow.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:02 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fa ... th_America

but then why go under gunned 45-70 takes care of the bear and your wrist at the same time

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 5-70_1.jpg

Southwind · Post by **Southwind** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:36 pm

If you want to keep the same gun, I would buy a .357 sig barrel for your glock. Will drop into your gun and use the same mags. Will give you a little more piece of mind if you have to dispatch a large animal. There is a reason more and more wildlife officers that have alligators/bears in their jurisdiction are carrying the .357 sig.

akansasguy · Post by **akansasguy** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:29 pm

give thought to a Tarus Judge - fires 45 or 410. Loaded with personal defense rounds it would do the job.

jack the dog · Post by **jack the dog** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:56 am

Here is a link to shotgun ballistics/penetration, there is a lot of text, but I am referring to the tables so scroll down a little to find them. http://randywakeman.com/ShotgunPowertheMyth.htm

Note the penetration of bird shot into gelatin. Imagine an average bear with 4" plus of fat and then a few inches of tissue to get close to a vital organ.
The penetration is better at 0" from the end of the muzzle, but I am not waiting for a bear to get that close.

Also some 357 mag penetration data http://firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/357magnum.htm
As you can see a tad better penetration than the bird shot

The limit for urls is two so I had to delete the data for 40S&W and 357sig, but that is available from the same source as the 357 mag link.

Now if you want to carry and are allowed to do so, I would advise carrying.
If you don't carry, I don't see the point of scoffing at those that do. It's a choice we each can make.

As to rifle vs pistol. I had rather shoot a deer or bear with a rifle over a pistol any day.
I have never been knocked down by a bear, but I have been knocked down by a deer. At that point my rifle was useless, and I still wish I had a pistol with me that day.
Because when you are hit, by either a bear, or a deer anyway, the first thing you loose is the grip on the rifle. I will never know if I would have had the presence of mind to grab a pistol if I had one that day. But I carry one now, I hope I never discover the answer to that question. The deer didn't know I was standing in his escape route, but after he hit me he turned back like I had attacked him. A pistol would have been a big help that day.

Honestly the best way to avoid bears is to let them know you are there, as a bell on dogs and on your boot laces. That is my unsolicited advice for bird hunting in bear country.
But if you ever encounter a bear that doesn't pay any attention to the bells it is probably because he considers you as part of his food supply. I plan on having something with me with a little better penetration than a 20ga with 7.5 shot for that event. To each his own.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:12 pm

Check the ballistics for slugs and OO buck. It is as quick and easy to reload a shotgun as pull a pistol, but the real reason is few have skill with a pistol at the range a shotgun loses effectiveness with bird shot.

Few will practice enough to make a killing shot on a charging bear with a pistol.

The second site you posted also shows the effectiveness of a shotgun far exceeds a pistol. Please go to the index to prove my point with your own document.

jack the dog · Post by **jack the dog** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:03 am

I think the shotshell being tested is Federal Personal Defense Shotshell, which does have better penetration than birdshot, if I am looking at the same study as you are Neil.
I do not subscribe to your opinion of being able to reload a slug faster than pulling a pistol. I am pretty sure that I can pull a pistol faster than I can jack a birdshot round out of my super 90, dig in my pocket for a slug, drop it in the chamber and shoot to hit anything. Too many steps for the mind to process to be able to do it quickly,thus requiring more training to become effective with the shotgun that it would take to train to pull the handgun.
But, I am not here to argue with you or anyone else about this, I have stated my opinion and you have stated yours. You think yours is correct and I think mine is correct. So what now?
I am a newby to this site and it looks like you have been here awhile, but I am no newbie to the new world, and I bet you aren't either.
I am over 60 years of age and spent some time carrying a rifle along with a handgun for our country. I have seen what each can do to a human and I have seen what a shotgun with 00 military buckshot can do to a human.
But we are bird hunters here I think carry birding shotguns, 20, 28, some 410 along with a few 16 and 12 ga. We are having a discussion about our opinions on carrying handguns for bear. No one would go bear hunting with the firearms we are carrying seeking quail, grouse and pheasant.

I don't like urinating contests nor will I participate in such recreational activities. I appreciate your opinion, so please be respectful of others.

I carry a handgun for my stated reasons, if you don't want to I respect your opinion for not carrying one. I'm just trying to state my opinions and still be a gentleman about it. Enjoy your day.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:46 pm

Back on Sept. 24th the OP reported his bow hunting trip went well & he didn't need to use a firearm for self protection. Unless we're going to start a thread about bird hunting with a bow over gun dogs you all might want to move the discussion to one of the internet firearm site forums.

jack the dog · Post by **jack the dog** » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:13 am

Thanks Bigshooter. Point taken.

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:37 pm

If you are going to carry a hand gun in bear country, just make sure you remove the front sight...

nitecapt · Post by **nitecapt** » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:02 pm

If you are worried about the bear charging...take away his credit card

clink83 · Post by **clink83** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:36 pm

Firearms have a 40% failure rate in stopping bear attacks, bear spray 10%. I'm going with the odds on this one.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:15 pm

clink83 wrote:Firearms have a 40% failure rate in stopping bear attacks, bear spray 10%. I'm going with the odds on this one.

Amen to that!!!

Charlie

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:29 pm

I have watched a few hundred officers do pepper spray qualification, which involves taken a direct hit to the face, then preceding to run the length of a gym and attacking a dummy, the success rate for the officers is about 98%. Keeping in mind the difficultly of hitting a charging bear in the head when the effective range is less than 20 feet and your afraid for your life.......... I will stick with a firearm.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:09 pm

Neil wrote:I looked it up:

Shotgun muzzle energy 1700+ 50 yards 1400+

.40 pistol muzzle energy 460 50 yards 387

Even with bird shot, at the range most are accurate with a pistol, the shotgun out performs the pistol by 3 times. You would have to have some sand to hold your ground and wait, but a shotgun is a killer.

When bird hunting, leave the pistol at home, and carry slugs.

In our state you can't carry slugs or buckshot while bird hunting. I carry a Kimber .45, but more for wolf than bear.

claybuster_aa · Post by **claybuster_aa** » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:15 pm

A friend had told me they would use bird shot followed up with a slug. The first shot with the bird shot would be into the face. The bear would react the same way every time....stand up on it's hind legs and use its front paws to wipe its face down as if to get the bird shot off...out of eyes. This is followed up by the slug center mass into the chest.

This friend of mine used to do guided bear hunts in Alaska. He told me an interesting story once about a guy he took out once who got scared and started to run. He had taken a shot and missed, hitting the bear in the front leg, but the bear kept coming and that is when he ran. My friend (Jerry...RIP), yelled at him...where the heck are you going...then took the bear out with one shot. Next thing you know this guy comes running back, pulls out his pistol and lays about 6 rounds into the already down bear? Weird, but I guess when a person spends the money to go on a guided hunt, even though they didn't take the shot that actually took out the bear, they got to do something in their own mind to make them feel like they did something....strange.

RIP my dear friend Jerry. I am glad we got to shoot the final round of skeet together a few days before your passing. We miss you at the gun club. Your interesting stories, wisdom, and those $75 skeet lessons that you never charged me for will not be forgotten! LOL...he used to say, "you got $75, jokingly, I'll give you a lesson"...then a bit of practical wisdom would follow like you'll never hit a bird if your behind it....keep swinging and don't stop the gun! Miss you Jerry, many times you were like a father to me and you will not be forgotten.