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Any boxing fans here?

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby ezzy333 » Fri May 08, 2015 6:42 am

Neil wrote:I have been thinking about defensive boxing and counter-punching, trying to remember what coaches and referees told me in the old days.

When counter-punching your weight is most likely on your back foot, center body mass is rearward, and momentum is static. All a way of saying it usually lacks the same power as an offensive blow. It is often more like a slap than a hit, it stings more than stuns. It is simple physics.

At some point the officials decided that not true.

Neil, you are right about the mechanics of counter-punching but you are not accounting for the most important factor, the target is moving forward and is unable to roll or do anything to lessen the blow. So although the blow itself is weaker, the target moving into it counteract the weakness and actually makes it harder in many cases.
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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby Mountaineer » Fri May 08, 2015 8:56 am

From a non-expert but observer...a counter-punch is never only delivered when the puncher is in a reverse gear. backing away...nor is the recipient of the counter-punch always coming forward...not sure I would term a counter-punch weaker, either.
It can be...but to my eye it is hardly a given.
A counter-punch is simply a punch or jab or hook or whatever delivered in response to what the opponent threw....the position of each boxer varies in the dance.....to my eye.

The position of each may be irrelevant in fact tho were anyone to see Dan Henderson(I know, MMA) deliver his blows, often counter, on an opponent falling or trying to come forward....that movement ahead can certainly accentuate the power to the recipient.

Somehow, a counter-punch seems destined to always be considered...less.
That would appear as silly as labeling the jab as less in the entirety of the back and forth and "science" of a boxing match.
Perhaps, this destinty is yet one more reason that boxing is in decline. :idea:
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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby Neil » Fri May 08, 2015 9:33 am

Like I said, modern officials have decided my coaches wrong and you guys right.

I was careful to say, "most likely" and "often" in describing defensive style. I think I object as much to the terminology as the act. Defensive? In a fight?

Whatever I find it as boring as most other casual fans, thus the decline in popularity in direct relationship to decisions. If counter-punching was effective as many suggest, seems like there would be more KOs. Too often today they dance for 12 - 15 rounds and three experts tell us who won. Boring.

You do away with defensive boxing and you will know who won.
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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby UglyD » Fri May 08, 2015 12:26 pm

there are no more 15 round fights- boxed GG until I decided getting hit in the head wasn't that enjoyable and getting into college on a boxing scholarship
wasn't an option-
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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby Ms. Cage » Fri May 08, 2015 2:26 pm

Mountaineer wrote:a counter-punch is never only delivered when the puncher is in a reverse gear. backing away...nor is the recipient of the counter-punch always coming forward...not sure I would term a counter-punch weaker, either.It can be...but to my eye it is hardly a given.A counter-punch is simply a punch or jab or hook or whatever delivered in response to what the opponent threw....the position of each boxer varies in the dance.....to my eye.The position of each may be irrelevant in fact tho were anyone to see Dan Henderson(I know, MMA) deliver his blows, often counter, on an opponent falling or trying to come forward....that movement ahead can certainly accentuate the power to the recipient.Somehow, a counter-punch seems destined to always be considered...less.


IMO you have a good explanation of counter punching. Many times you see a fighter moving forward yet will look for the counter punch. Might be the opponent is slow on the punch coming straight back or letting a jab hang out there to long. I've seen many KO'd or a TKO set up of a counter. Timing your opponents blow.
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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby birddogger » Fri May 08, 2015 8:27 pm

These are all good posts. And yes timing is the key, but also the surprise factor [not seeing the counter being thrown] and accuracy of the punch as I said earlier. I do agree with Neil though. If a fighter does nothing offensive except for counter punching, it makes for a very boring fight, even if he scores a few knockouts with that strategy. But again, getting hit with a hard counter punch as you are throwing your own is the most effective blow in boxing but the fighter should be doing much more than just counter punching.

If anyone is interested, go to youtube and type in Marciano vs. Walcott and watch the devastating knockout in the 13th round. It is more of Marciano beating him to the punch than a counter but the two are very similar. Jersey Joe was starting to throw a right hand when Rocky through his own right hand that landed and the referee could have counted to a hundred.

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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby birddogger » Fri May 08, 2015 8:32 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:a counter-punch is never only delivered when the puncher is in a reverse gear. backing away...nor is the recipient of the counter-punch always coming forward...not sure I would term a counter-punch weaker, either.It can be...but to my eye it is hardly a given.A counter-punch is simply a punch or jab or hook or whatever delivered in response to what the opponent threw....the position of each boxer varies in the dance.....to my eye.The position of each may be irrelevant in fact tho were anyone to see Dan Henderson(I know, MMA) deliver his blows, often counter, on an opponent falling or trying to come forward....that movement ahead can certainly accentuate the power to the recipient.Somehow, a counter-punch seems destined to always be considered...less.


IMO you have a good explanation of counter punching. Many times you see a fighter moving forward yet will look for the counter punch. Might be the opponent is slow on the punch coming straight back or letting a jab hang out there to long. I've seen many KO'd or a TKO set up of a counter. Timing your opponents blow.

Yes and Yes to both of you. There is just so much that goes into this sport.

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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby Ms. Cage » Fri May 08, 2015 9:55 pm

Unless you have been involved with the sport it can be difficult to understand some of the strategy at times. Howie coming from a boxing family , his dad boxed , mom side grand dad coached , 4 uncles boxed . Howie being oldest grand child was strapping on gloves from darn near the time he could walk. In the gym from the time he was 7. Boxing JR golden gloves ( silver gloves) until he was 13. Fighting class A GG from 14 until 19 . Then coaching for 3 years, judging and refereed from many years after. Hubby has 2 passions , bird dogs and boxing .
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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby Neil » Fri May 08, 2015 10:04 pm

Started out by saying I did not know.

After some research, I maintain my original assumption. Defensive/counter-punching is not nearly as effective in terms of knock outs as the aggressive boxers of old. Today they rely on judging, which has changed. Most of the top boxers of the 50's - 70's had an 80+% of their wins end in a KO. Floyd Mayweather is barely over 50%.

You add in the fights the old timers lost, and the number gets close to 90% ending in a KO.

You all can do your own research and refute my cursory findings, I only checked a half dozen or so, and only Ali relied as heavily on decisions as they do today. And at the time he was heavily criticized.

Me, I would rather know who won by a KO, and not have 3 guys tell me their opinion.
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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby Ms. Cage » Fri May 08, 2015 10:55 pm

Neil wrote: Today they rely on judging, which has changed. Most of the top boxers of the 50's - 70's had an 80+% of their wins end in a KO. Floyd Mayweather is barely over 50%.


Myself , I'd rather see a fight go the distance. Ko's can lead to brain damage. Back in the day championship bouts were 15 rounds vs 12 today. There's reason for cutting back to 12 rounds. Mayweather is a technical . not a power puncher. We can look at Dempsey , Marciono ( SP) brawlers . Many consider one of the first technical boxers to be Gene Tunney. The fighters of the 50's and earlier seemed to take on most anyone . We still see many boxers with high KO %. If you've been able to watch some of the early bouts you'd would see many did counter punch well or timing their opponent punch and beating him to the punch is a counter move. Checking out only a half dozen or so is barely skimming the surface. Earlier there was conversation on the decline of boxing. IMO a couple of factors, shady bull crap. the devastation done to many pro's health, etc. Golden gloves, In this area GG was huge, 60 through mid 70's. WE had 14 teams boxing in the Hibbing region. I want to say there was something like 186 boxers entered in our region all looking for a trip to the state tourney. The state tourney known as the upper mid west was sponsored by the Minneapolis Star and Tribune and heavily promoted by the paper. Then, high school hockey became huge and boxing declined big time in the state as a winter sport. Today boxing (GG) is a drop in the bucket from what it once was.
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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby Mountaineer » Sat May 09, 2015 5:45 am

Clay was criticized and lauded for far more than bouts ending in decisions.....he broke more than one mold, for the good and for the bad, imo.
I was not a fan of the promotion and self-focus but one must acknowledge skill of many types in boxing.

I would suggest that top fighters of today have more control over their futures than in the 40s as those days changed from the days of bare knuckles...with those around the fighters today having an understanding of developing an ongoing brand and paycheck.
Add in more boxers having more personal control of their future and ....matches today are simply made with more on the line than..."Next!".

Boxing, again imo, is no more about KOs than NASCAR is about car crashes...yet many folks certainly do tune in for that crash.
NASCAR drove off and left me about 15 years ago and I no longer watch....I would indeed prefer the days of Cale hitting his nose into Bobby's fist(slightly continuing the boxing connection) and less of the days of entertainment cautions and multi-car teams but NASCAR has changed as boxing has slid.
We can bemoan that change but in reality and for most of us each sport is simply entertainment....certainly none is as important as bemoaning the loss and change of early successional habitat.
As I say...I no longer tune in to those fellas turning left that I followed since 60s...I miss the Firecracker 400 and guys that look like NASCAR drivers and fish or hunt rather than play video games.
No longer tuning in ...is an option.
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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby birddogger » Sat May 09, 2015 8:24 am

Neil wrote:Started out by saying I did not know.

After some research, I maintain my original assumption. Defensive/counter-punching is not nearly as effective in terms of knock outs as the aggressive boxers of old. Today they rely on judging, which has changed. Most of the top boxers of the 50's - 70's had an 80+% of their wins end in a KO. Floyd Mayweather is barely over 50%.

You add in the fights the old timers lost, and the number gets close to 90% ending in a KO.

You all can do your own research and refute my cursory findings, I only checked a half dozen or so, and only Ali relied as heavily on decisions as they do today. And at the time he was heavily criticized.

Me, I would rather know who won by a KO, and not have 3 guys tell me their opinion.

Neil, counter punching is not just a defensive tactic. Without having any statistics to go by, I would venture to guess that the majority of KOs by aggressive fighters come by way of a counter punch. I will say it again...the most damaging blow comes from a counter punch.

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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby birddogger » Sat May 09, 2015 8:53 am

Ms. Cage wrote:Unless you have been involved with the sport it can be difficult to understand some of the strategy at times. Howie coming from a boxing family , his dad boxed , mom side grand dad coached , 4 uncles boxed . Howie being oldest grand child was strapping on gloves from darn near the time he could walk. In the gym from the time he was 7. Boxing JR golden gloves ( silver gloves) until he was 13. Fighting class A GG from 14 until 19 . Then coaching for 3 years, judging and refereed from many years after. Hubby has 2 passions , bird dogs and boxing .

My two passions also!! I suspected experience there with the talk of dropping or leaving the jab hanging out there. :wink: Dropping the jab instead of bringing it straight back is what got Joe Louis [considered by many to be the greatest heavyweight of all time] knocked out by Max Schmeling in their first bout. When Louis threw the jab and slightly drop it, Schmeling would come over the top with a right hand. After several rounds of using that strategy, Louis was rendered unconscious, which I am sure you know. But the point is Louis was defeated by nothing but counter punches.

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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby Neil » Sun May 10, 2015 10:05 am

Just watched the fight.

Boring.

In the 60's neither boxer would even be ranked based on their performance, both should have been DQed.
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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sun May 10, 2015 11:56 am

Although it didn't live up to its potential, neither should have been DQ'd. That's ridiculous.
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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby Neil » Sun May 10, 2015 4:29 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Although it didn't live up to its potential, neither should have been DQ'd. That's ridiculous.


They took turns of being afraid and glad for it. Neither carried the fight, neither took any risks. Didn't live up to its potential? It shouldn't even be called a fight. Yes, I honestly believe in the 60's both would have been subject to a disqualification. Somewhere around the 5th round each corner would have been warned, either fight or I will call the match off.
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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby birddogger » Sun May 10, 2015 4:38 pm

Neil wrote:Just watched the fight.

Boring.

In the 60's neither boxer would even be ranked based on their performance, both should have been DQed.

:lol: That is just not the way it works. But you are right about the boring part Neil. Floyd Mayweather [very talented BTW] = boring. This is why I would never pay to watch him fight nor will I watch a replay. I have no interest to watch any bout he is involved in.

Having said that, I just have to say something more about your view on the counter punch, which is probably also getting boring. I understand what your thinking is on it and what you say you have been told. You are thinking of a boxer fighting strictly defensive and trying to counter punch only to score points.When this is the case, I will agree with you. There are not many boxers that ever become world class using this strategy. This is not the type of counter punching I have been trying to explain how devastating they can be. Enough said by me on the counter punch. :wink:

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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sun May 10, 2015 6:03 pm

Neil wrote:
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Although it didn't live up to its potential, neither should have been DQ'd. That's ridiculous.


They took turns of being afraid and glad for it. Neither carried the fight, neither took any risks. Didn't live up to its potential? It shouldn't even be called a fight. Yes, I honestly believe in the 60's both would have been subject to a disqualification. Somewhere around the 5th round each corner would have been warned, either fight or I will call the match off.


Who cares about the 60's? We live in 2015 now.
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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby Mountaineer » Sun May 10, 2015 6:15 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:....Who cares about the 60's? We live in 2015 now.


I would say that the "60s" was equivalent to a counterpunch...orta be a DQ. :D

I suspect the match in question was indeed a sleeper...as nothing could have matched the hype, given all the particulars of the situation and the boxers.
I'm also pretty sure that most expected the result and many simply hoped FM would get bested in some dramatic manner.

Teofilo Stevenson, the professional amateur...now there was a representative of the sport that knocked folks out.
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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby luvthemud » Sun May 10, 2015 6:24 pm

Roy Jones summed it up perfectly.

Last weekend we saw a boxing match....this weekend we saw a fight!

He was referring to the Alvarez/Kirkland fight.
https://youtu.be/LehQX1bbGQk
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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sun May 10, 2015 6:30 pm

luvthemud wrote:Roy Jones summed it up perfectly.

Last weekend we saw a boxing match....this weekend we saw a fight!

He was referring to the Alvarez/Kirkland fight.



That was a fight.
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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby Neil » Sun May 10, 2015 6:41 pm

Charlie,

I lack the knowledge as to be so bold to disagree with you.

May complaint is with 12 rounds of defensive boxing I find boring, 5 rounds of defense, and then 7 of offence would be a better balance to win. I fully understand the value of counter-punching as it can be employed by the aggressor, even more effectively. So I should not have used that terminology, and should only addressed defensive boxing. I lack the vocabulary to express myself.

I mention the 60's to explain the decline of boxing, and I do care. Both should have been warned and they would have fought, there would have been no need for a DQ. I find it interesting that FM's father showed he agrees with me, as he kept urging his son to be more agressive.

I am not nostalgic concerning other sports, the athletes are much better today. In boxing, it is not the fighters but the judging I fault.
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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby Ms. Cage » Mon May 11, 2015 9:41 am

Neil wrote:I am not nostalgic concerning other sports, the athletes are much better today. In boxing, it is not the fighters but the judging I fault.


Why do you fault the judges ?

Neil wrote:May complaint is with 12 rounds of defensive boxing I find boring, 5 rounds of defense, and then 7 of offence would be a better balance to win.


Mayweather had to fight this type of fight with Pac Man. Pac man can hit. Mayweather having respect for Pac man ability to punch fought his fight. Pac man being shorter and IMO the power puncher of the two . Mayweather had to keep Pacman on the outside by sticking Pac with jabs and long range shots . When pac got on the inside mayweather had two good options, cover up like a clam or tie pac up. You can throw all the punches you want but when they're being stop by gloves and arms you score nothing. When your in that squared circle you fight the you have to to win. You don't care what pleases the crowd.
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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby birddogger » Mon May 11, 2015 3:49 pm

Neil wrote:Charlie,

I lack the knowledge as to be so bold to disagree with you.

May complaint is with 12 rounds of defensive boxing I find boring, 5 rounds of defense, and then 7 of offence would be a better balance to win. I fully understand the value of counter-punching as it can be employed by the aggressor, even more effectively. So I should not have used that terminology, and should only addressed defensive boxing. I lack the vocabulary to express myself.

I mention the 60's to explain the decline of boxing, and I do care. Both should have been warned and they would have fought, there would have been no need for a DQ. I find it interesting that FM's father showed he agrees with me, as he kept urging his son to be more agressive.

I am not nostalgic concerning other sports, the athletes are much better today. In boxing, it is not the fighters but the judging I fault.

No problems here Neil. I tend to agree with you on many points. Most of my comments were not to argue but simply try to explain some of the finer points to the more casual fan. My biggest problem with this fight is the hype it was given when most knowledgeable boxing fans and the so called experts knew or should have known what kind of fight it would be and what the outcome would be.

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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby luvthemud » Fri May 15, 2015 3:19 pm

Big matchup this weekend:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-WB-55293

:lol:
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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby markj » Thu May 21, 2015 5:32 am

I used to box. Was in a match with a taller guy, when he threw a right his left hand dropped exposing his face. I knocked him out in the 2nd round with a counter punch and an upper cut. pow out go the lites :) I still work the body bag. Isnt like the old days of Ali, Norton and the rest.
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Re: Any boxing fans here?

Postby Neil » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:59 pm

I am watching the rebroadcast of the Wilder vs Molina fight, and it is a fight! Not pretty, not sweet, and for sure not science, even ugly, clumsy, but neither is afraid. Molina, as the challenger is taking the fight to him. Wilder is holding his own and some.

This is old time boxing.

2nd knockdown by the 5th, and now a 3rd. I like it.
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