Any boxing fans here?

User avatar
luvthemud
Rank: Champion
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:54 pm
Location: The Holyland, WI

Any boxing fans here?

Post by luvthemud » Fri May 01, 2015 8:58 pm

Big night tomorrow night!

Might be boxing's death gargle and way overdue, but it is hard to not get excited to see Mayweather and Pacquio finally meet.

http://movietvtechgeeks.com/manny-pacqu ... s-funeral/

Mountaineer
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1630
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:23 pm
Location: State?...The one where ruffed grouse were.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by Mountaineer » Sat May 02, 2015 5:24 am

Used to watch...not much left or clean these days....they are tying to create and amp up a buzz....I hope the woman-beater loses but, likely a tough go, that.

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by birddogger » Sat May 02, 2015 6:28 am

I had been a huge and PASSIONATE boxing fan all my life, but not much to get excited about any more. The Hagler-Leonard fight, along with a few others years ago, pretty much disgusted me to the point of giving it up. Oh, and don't forget the No Mas fight.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
NEhomer
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 675
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:58 pm
Location: Western, MA

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by NEhomer » Sat May 02, 2015 6:52 am

Pay Per View is what has killed boxing.

How many of you remember the Thrilla in Manilla on network TV? Not only is this fight expensive, it's airing so late that a trip to a sports bar is gonna get ya home way past midnight.

User avatar
luvthemud
Rank: Champion
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:54 pm
Location: The Holyland, WI

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by luvthemud » Sat May 02, 2015 7:29 am

NEhomer wrote:Pay Per View is what has killed boxing.

How many of you remember the Thrilla in Manilla on network TV? Not only is this fight expensive, it's airing so late that a trip to a sports bar is gonna get ya home way past midnight.

NBC has started airing fights on broadcast TV again, but at this point it is probably too late to help the sport. I spoke to a bar owner about getting the fight and he said because of the amount of square footage of viewing area it would cost something like $2,000!

I have purchased pretty much every major boxing PPV over the last ten years and never really complained about the price, but $100 is too much IMO. Especially considering that they are only airing 2 of the 6 undercard fights, and they are nothing special. Oh well, either way I will end up paying the money. My justification is that this will in all likelyhood be the last PPV match I ever order.

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by birddogger » Sat May 02, 2015 10:18 pm

NEhomer wrote:Pay Per View is what has killed boxing.

How many of you remember the Thrilla in Manilla on network TV? Not only is this fight expensive, it's airing so late that a trip to a sports bar is gonna get ya home way past midnight.
The Thrilla in Manilla was one of, if not the greatest heavyweight title fights in history. However, it was not on network TV. It was on closed circuit TVs all around the world. I watched it live in an arena on big screen closed circuit. If I remember right, I believe my ticket cost me aroun 30 bucks. If you saw the fight on network, it was a recording. A fight of that magnitude would have never been shown on network TV. I understand what you are saying about the "pay per view" but pesonally, I believe the creation of different boxing organizations which had their own ratings and recognizing their own version of the champion in each weight division was the beginning of the end. It is not possible to have more than one true world champ in each division. I could discuss this topic all night long but this forum is not the place for it. I would be happy to discuss it through PMs though. :)

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by birddogger » Sat May 02, 2015 10:26 pm

luvthemud wrote:
NEhomer wrote:Pay Per View is what has killed boxing.

How many of you remember the Thrilla in Manilla on network TV? Not only is this fight expensive, it's airing so late that a trip to a sports bar is gonna get ya home way past midnight.

NBC has started airing fights on broadcast TV again, but at this point it is probably too late to help the sport. I spoke to a bar owner about getting the fight and he said because of the amount of square footage of viewing area it would cost something like $2,000!

I have purchased pretty much every major boxing PPV over the last ten years and never really complained about the price, but $100 is too much IMO. Especially considering that they are only airing 2 of the 6 undercard fights, and they are nothing special. Oh well, either way I will end up paying the money. My justification is that this will in all likelyhood be the last PPV match I ever order.
Yeah, I was glad to see NBC start airing fights but I seriously doubt we will ever see any top names fighting each other but at least they are tossing us a bone. I am sorry to sound so negative but I am glad too see you excited about tonight's fight. I truly hope you get your money's worth. It's just that I personally wouldn't pay to watch it.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
NEhomer
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 675
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:58 pm
Location: Western, MA

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by NEhomer » Sun May 03, 2015 4:27 am

birddogger wrote:
NEhomer wrote:Pay Per View is what has killed boxing.

How many of you remember the Thrilla in Manilla on network TV? Not only is this fight expensive, it's airing so late that a trip to a sports bar is gonna get ya home way past midnight.
The Thrilla in Manilla was one of, if not the greatest heavyweight title fights in history. However, it was not on network TV. It was on closed circuit TVs all around the world. I watched it live in an arena on big screen closed circuit. If I remember right, I believe my ticket cost me aroun 30 bucks. If you saw the fight on network, it was a recording. A fight of that magnitude would have never been shown on network TV. I understand what you are saying about the "pay per view" but pesonally, I believe the creation of different boxing organizations which had their own ratings and recognizing their own version of the champion in each weight division was the beginning of the end. It is not possible to have more than one true world champ in each division. I could discuss this topic all night long but this forum is not the place for it. I would be happy to discuss it through PMs though. :)

Charlie
I stand corrected. I was 15 at the time and remember it well but yeah, must have been the re-broadcast that I recall. The nature of boxing is that most fans only really want to watch the top fights. At least this one went the distance for folks. Man, a few of those early Tyson fights sure cost a lot per second!

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by birddogger » Sun May 03, 2015 5:31 am

NEhomer wrote:
birddogger wrote:
NEhomer wrote:Pay Per View is what has killed boxing.

How many of you remember the Thrilla in Manilla on network TV? Not only is this fight expensive, it's airing so late that a trip to a sports bar is gonna get ya home way past midnight.
The Thrilla in Manilla was one of, if not the greatest heavyweight title fights in history. However, it was not on network TV. It was on closed circuit TVs all around the world. I watched it live in an arena on big screen closed circuit. If I remember right, I believe my ticket cost me aroun 30 bucks. If you saw the fight on network, it was a recording. A fight of that magnitude would have never been shown on network TV. I understand what you are saying about the "pay per view" but pesonally, I believe the creation of different boxing organizations which had their own ratings and recognizing their own version of the champion in each weight division was the beginning of the end. It is not possible to have more than one true world champ in each division. I could discuss this topic all night long but this forum is not the place for it. I would be happy to discuss it through PMs though. :)

Charlie
I stand corrected. I was 15 at the time and remember it well but yeah, must have been the re-broadcast that I recall. The nature of boxing is that most fans only really want to watch the top fights. At least this one went the distance for folks. Man, a few of those early Tyson fights sure cost a lot per second!
I understand completely. At 15 you may well have believed you were watching it live. This fight tonight went almost exactly as I expected, which is why I said I would not pay to watch it.

Regards,
Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
luvthemud
Rank: Champion
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:54 pm
Location: The Holyland, WI

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by luvthemud » Sun May 03, 2015 2:15 pm

birddogger wrote:
luvthemud wrote:
NEhomer wrote:Pay Per View is what has killed boxing.

How many of you remember the Thrilla in Manilla on network TV? Not only is this fight expensive, it's airing so late that a trip to a sports bar is gonna get ya home way past midnight.

NBC has started airing fights on broadcast TV again, but at this point it is probably too late to help the sport. I spoke to a bar owner about getting the fight and he said because of the amount of square footage of viewing area it would cost something like $2,000!

I have purchased pretty much every major boxing PPV over the last ten years and never really complained about the price, but $100 is too much IMO. Especially considering that they are only airing 2 of the 6 undercard fights, and they are nothing special. Oh well, either way I will end up paying the money. My justification is that this will in all likelyhood be the last PPV match I ever order.
Yeah, I was glad to see NBC start airing fights but I seriously doubt we will ever see any top names fighting each other but at least they are tossing us a bone. I am sorry to sound so negative but I am glad too see you excited about tonight's fight. I truly hope you get your money's worth. It's just that I personally wouldn't pay to watch it.

Charlie

Actually Danny Garcia was the feature bout on the last NBC airing, and the one before that featured Broner, so it isn't complete no-namers.

Manny Pacquio looked absolutely horrible last night.

Mountaineer
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1630
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:23 pm
Location: State?...The one where ruffed grouse were.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by Mountaineer » Sun May 03, 2015 2:29 pm

Is the big fight over?

Apart from anything of value, I always enjoyed hearing Carlos Palomino introduced...one announcer did a swell job with his name.
Nino Benenuti, the same.

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by birddogger » Sun May 03, 2015 9:38 pm

Mountaineer wrote:Is the big fight over?

Apart from anything of value, I always enjoyed hearing Carlos Palomino introduced...one announcer did a swell job with his name.
Nino Benenuti, the same.
I loved hearing Palomino introduced by the announcer you are talking about. It really got my blood pumping. Palomino was one of my favorites at the time. Great fighter, well educated and a real gentlemen too.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by birddogger » Sun May 03, 2015 9:40 pm

Actually Danny Garcia was the feature bout on the last NBC airing, and the one before that featured Broner, so it isn't complete no-namers.
Maybe there is a glimmer of hope. :D

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by birddogger » Sun May 03, 2015 9:44 pm

The fight last night went exactly as I expected which is why I said I would not pay to watch it. "Fight Of The Century" Please give me a break. :lol:

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

nyhusker95
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:04 pm
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by nyhusker95 » Mon May 04, 2015 6:24 am

[quote="birddogger"
Yeah, I was glad to see NBC start airing fights but I seriously doubt we will ever see any top names fighting each other but at least they are tossing us a bone.

Charlie[/quote]

The last NBC fight had Andy Lee v Peter Mcquillan as the first fight, which was very exciting. The main event was Danny Garcia v Lamont Peterson which was also exciting. Danny Garcia is one of the best pound-for-pound fighters right now. I am very excited to see what NBC and Al Haymon are doing. I think they have 4 more fights in the works and they should be very good match ups. They will never be as big as the ppv events like Friday, but they are every bit as good as HBO or Showtime fights.

User avatar
ACooper
GDF Premier Member!
Posts: 3397
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:37 pm
Location: Sometimes I'm in Oklahoma

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by ACooper » Mon May 04, 2015 7:23 am

Andre Ward is fighting again in about a month, I believe it will be on cable.

The fight went as expected Floyd does what he always does, make everyone else look bad.

Ms. Cage
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 705
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 5:01 pm
Location: Hibbing, Mn. 55746

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by Ms. Cage » Mon May 04, 2015 1:56 pm

When Pac Man lunged with the first left hand through vs. Slipping to the inside and unloading I knew it was Mayweather's night.

User avatar
luvthemud
Rank: Champion
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:54 pm
Location: The Holyland, WI

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by luvthemud » Mon May 04, 2015 2:46 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:When Pac Man lunged with the first left hand through vs. Slipping to the inside and unloading I knew it was Mayweather's night.
Yeah, anybody that has seen a Mayweather bout could tell less than a minute into the fight that Pacquio didn't stand a chance.

Ms. Cage
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 705
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 5:01 pm
Location: Hibbing, Mn. 55746

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by Ms. Cage » Mon May 04, 2015 3:10 pm

luvthemud wrote:Yeah, anybody that has seen a Mayweather bout could tell less than a minute into the fight that Pacquio didn't stand a chance.
I'm not a Mayweather fan. IMO ( Howie's ) If Mayweather is going to be beaten you have to turn the table on Mayweathesr fight and defensive fight yourself. Make May weather come to you vs going after Floyd . No one will beat Floyd by allowing Floyd to fight a defensive counter punching fight. You must keep Floyd on the offence and you fight the defensive counter punch fight....

User avatar
luvthemud
Rank: Champion
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:54 pm
Location: The Holyland, WI

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by luvthemud » Mon May 04, 2015 3:40 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:
luvthemud wrote:Yeah, anybody that has seen a Mayweather bout could tell less than a minute into the fight that Pacquio didn't stand a chance.
I'm not a Mayweather fan. IMO ( Howie's ) If Mayweather is going to be beaten you have to turn the table on Mayweathesr fight and defensive fight yourself. Make May weather come to you vs going after Floyd . No one will beat Floyd by allowing Floyd to fight a defensive counter punching fight. You must keep Floyd on the offence and you fight the defensive counter punch fight....

I dont think anyone will ever beat him. IMO, even if they match him up with a defensive fighter of similar style he will still win. I think mayweather is too smart to fall into that trap and too quick to be a victim of any real counterpunching.

I find it hilarious listening to all the non-boxing fans complain about how boring of a fight it was. Actually, compared to previous mayweather fights, I actually though it was pretty good. There have been some real Snoozers for sure.

Ms. Cage
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 705
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 5:01 pm
Location: Hibbing, Mn. 55746

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by Ms. Cage » Mon May 04, 2015 4:10 pm

Anytime your on the offence your subject to being counter punched . The key is timing the offensive blow. For every offensive blow there's a counter.

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by birddogger » Mon May 04, 2015 9:16 pm

luvthemud wrote:
Ms. Cage wrote:
luvthemud wrote:Yeah, anybody that has seen a Mayweather bout could tell less than a minute into the fight that Pacquio didn't stand a chance.
I'm not a Mayweather fan. IMO ( Howie's ) If Mayweather is going to be beaten you have to turn the table on Mayweathesr fight and defensive fight yourself. Make May weather come to you vs going after Floyd . No one will beat Floyd by allowing Floyd to fight a defensive counter punching fight. You must keep Floyd on the offence and you fight the defensive counter punch fight....

I dont think anyone will ever beat him. IMO, even if they match him up with a defensive fighter of similar style he will still win. I think mayweather is too smart to fall into that trap and too quick to be a victim of any real counterpunching.

I find it hilarious listening to all the non-boxing fans complain about how boring of a fight it was. Actually, compared to previous mayweather fights, I actually though it was pretty good. There have been some real Snoozers for sure.
Mayweather is a great fighter but his style is what makes for a boring fight and I was pretty sure this one would be no different. All the media hype was for promotion/money reasons, which I understand. What I don't understand is knowledgeable boxing people falling for it. The two fighters are even past their prime for crying out loud. If these types of matches were good for boxing, I would be all for it, but it is just the opposite, they just drive another nail in the coffin IMO.
Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by birddogger » Mon May 04, 2015 10:36 pm

nyhusker95 wrote:[quote="birddogger"
Yeah, I was glad to see NBC start airing fights but I seriously doubt we will ever see any top names fighting each other but at least they are tossing us a bone.

Charlie
The last NBC fight had Andy Lee v Peter Mcquillan as the first fight, which was very exciting. The main event was Danny Garcia v Lamont Peterson which was also exciting. Danny Garcia is one of the best pound-for-pound fighters right now. I am very excited to see what NBC and Al Haymon are doing. I think they have 4 more fights in the works and they should be very good match ups. They will never be as big as the ppv events like Friday, but they are every bit as good as HBO or Showtime fights.[/quote]
I am sure you know what you are talking about but I guess I am just lamenting the days when you could watch two world class top contenders fighting each other every Friday night and many times even a world title fight. And then in later years we had Wide World of Sports which aired many great fights, including title fights. But then that was before the exorbitant amounts of money came into play.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by Neil » Tue May 05, 2015 1:25 am

Like most, I rarely watch or follow boxing. I think HBO/Showtime contributed to the downturn more than pay per view, I am not willing to pay monthly fees to see a fight ever now and then.

Question, when did the judging change to allow a defensive boxer a chance of winning? Particularly for the challenger. There was a time counter-punching was under-valued. Without a knockout, you could never win counter- punching. Think about it, if neither fighter advanced, there would just be a dance, there would never be a KO. Listen to the description, fighter X could not cut the ring in half , he couldn't catch him, fighter Y was able to stay out of trouble. Just the terminology, a defensive boxer is boring.

The most cutting critique of Ali was he couldn't carry the fight to some boxers. He could spare in some opening rounds, but if he didn't close in the later rounds he had no chance of getting the decision, had to go for a KO.

I think this scoring change is what makes people lose interest. The referee used to warn fighters to mix it up, not just shuffle around.

Want to make it interesting, make them fight.

I don't get it.

User avatar
luvthemud
Rank: Champion
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:54 pm
Location: The Holyland, WI

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by luvthemud » Tue May 05, 2015 2:33 am

birddogger wrote: Mayweather is a great fighter but his style is what makes for a boring fight and I was pretty sure this one would be no different. All the media hype was for promotion/money reasons, which I understand. What I don't understand is knowledgeable boxing people falling for it. The two fighters are even past their prime for crying out loud. If these types of matches were good for boxing, I would be all for it, but it is just the opposite, they just drive another nail in the coffin IMO.
Charlie
I don't know of any knowledgeable boxing fans that fell for anything? I know lots of non-boxing and/or UFC fans that did however get duped. The boxing world knew exactly what this fight was probably going to end up being. The Vegas betting odds are evidence of just how little of a chance Pacquio had in the minds of most.

With that said, there is always the chance that something miraculous can happen, that is why I enjoy boxing. Floyd's style is certainly boring, but for some reason I am more than happy to keep plunking down money to see it. Probably has more to do with not wanting to miss the miracle of a Mayweather loss if it were to ever happen than actually watching him fight. The buzz and excitement surrounding this fight was warranted in my opinion. Even though some consider them past their prime, which I would argue, it was still 2 of the sports top players facing off.

User avatar
luvthemud
Rank: Champion
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:54 pm
Location: The Holyland, WI

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by luvthemud » Tue May 05, 2015 2:35 am

Neil wrote:Like most, I rarely watch or follow boxing. I think HBO/Showtime contributed to the downturn more than pay per view, I am not willing to pay monthly fees to see a fight ever now and then.

Question, when did the judging change to allow a defensive boxer a chance of winning? Particularly for the challenger. There was a time counter-punching was under-valued. Without a knockout, you could never win counter- punching. Think about it, if neither fighter advanced, there would just be a dance, there would never be a KO. Listen to the description, fighter X could not cut the ring in half , he couldn't catch him, fighter Y was able to stay out of trouble. Just the terminology, a defensive boxer is boring.

The most cutting critique of Ali was he couldn't carry the fight to some boxers. He could spare in some opening rounds, but if he didn't close in the later rounds he had no chance of getting the decision, had to go for a KO.

I think this scoring change is what makes people lose interest. The referee used to warn fighters to mix it up, not just shuffle around.

Want to make it interesting, make them fight.

I don't get it.

You bring up a very good point that I never really considered. I wonder what Mayweathers record would be had he been a fighter 20 years ago?

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by birddogger » Tue May 05, 2015 4:41 am

luvthemud wrote:
birddogger wrote: Mayweather is a great fighter but his style is what makes for a boring fight and I was pretty sure this one would be no different. All the media hype was for promotion/money reasons, which I understand. What I don't understand is knowledgeable boxing people falling for it. The two fighters are even past their prime for crying out loud. If these types of matches were good for boxing, I would be all for it, but it is just the opposite, they just drive another nail in the coffin IMO.
Charlie
I don't know of any knowledgeable boxing fans that fell for anything? I know lots of non-boxing and/or UFC fans that did however get duped. The boxing world knew exactly what this fight was probably going to end up being. The Vegas betting odds are evidence of just how little of a chance Pacquio had in the minds of most.

With that said, there is always the chance that something miraculous can happen, that is why I enjoy boxing. Floyd's style is certainly boring, but for some reason I am more than happy to keep plunking down money to see it. Probably has more to do with not wanting to miss the miracle of a Mayweather loss if it were to ever happen than actually watching him fight. The buzz and excitement surrounding this fight was warranted in my opinion. Even though some consider them past their prime, which I would argue, it was still 2 of the sports top players facing off.
Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree. IMO, the buzz and excitement was not warranted for this fight and yes, there were many knowledgeable boxing fans that got caught up in the hype. You don't generate millions of dollars selling to non-boxing fans. I heard all kinds of hype from the boxing media..."Fight of the Century"...possibly "the greatest fight in history" and so on. Unbelievable....get real. Please believe me, I am not referring to you but many, many boxing fans got duped/brain washed.

No offense intended, just the way I see it,
Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by birddogger » Tue May 05, 2015 4:50 am

You bring up a very good point that I never really considered. I wonder what Mayweathers record would be had he been a fighter 20 years ago?
The same as it is now. You would have to go back a whole lot longer than 20yrs. to see what Neil is talking about. He would have been defeated by a Sugar Ray Leonard or Thomas Hearns though in their prime.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
luvthemud
Rank: Champion
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:54 pm
Location: The Holyland, WI

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by luvthemud » Tue May 05, 2015 5:45 am

birddogger wrote:
luvthemud wrote:
birddogger wrote: Mayweather is a great fighter but his style is what makes for a boring fight and I was pretty sure this one would be no different. All the media hype was for promotion/money reasons, which I understand. What I don't understand is knowledgeable boxing people falling for it. The two fighters are even past their prime for crying out loud. If these types of matches were good for boxing, I would be all for it, but it is just the opposite, they just drive another nail in the coffin IMO.
Charlie
I don't know of any knowledgeable boxing fans that fell for anything? I know lots of non-boxing and/or UFC fans that did however get duped. The boxing world knew exactly what this fight was probably going to end up being. The Vegas betting odds are evidence of just how little of a chance Pacquio had in the minds of most.

With that said, there is always the chance that something miraculous can happen, that is why I enjoy boxing. Floyd's style is certainly boring, but for some reason I am more than happy to keep plunking down money to see it. Probably has more to do with not wanting to miss the miracle of a Mayweather loss if it were to ever happen than actually watching him fight. The buzz and excitement surrounding this fight was warranted in my opinion. Even though some consider them past their prime, which I would argue, it was still 2 of the sports top players facing off.
Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree. IMO, the buzz and excitement was not warranted for this fight and yes, there were many knowledgeable boxing fans that got caught up in the hype. You don't generate millions of dollars selling to non-boxing fans. I heard all kinds of hype from the boxing media..."Fight of the Century"...possibly "the greatest fight in history" and so on. Unbelievable....get real. Please believe me, I am not referring to you but many, many boxing fans got duped/brain washed.

No offense intended, just the way I see it,
Charlie

No offense taken. Different perspectives and opinions can live in harmony.

Once the official PPV numbers come out we will be able to tell how many people were "duped". The Alvarez fight sold 2.2 million PPV buys and I would wager that most of them were true boxing fans. Anybody that rented that fight was going to rent the pacquio fight regardless of marketing.

mask
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 631
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Idaho

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by mask » Tue May 05, 2015 10:32 am

It would have been a good fight 8 or 10 years ago. As it was the fight was just predictable.

nyhusker95
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:04 pm
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by nyhusker95 » Tue May 05, 2015 6:04 pm

Mayweather is very selective in choosing his opponents. He doesn't make a fight until he has a competive edge. It's no coincidence this fight didn't happen five years ago. I don't think he was scared of Pac in the ordinary sense we use the word, but think he was scared to risk losing because his record is the most important thing to him (besides $). He seems to think that an undefeated record will see cement his legacy as one of the all-time greatest, however he's never been in the difficult fights like Leonard, Hagler or Hearns. If the fans were able to choose his opponents he wouldn't be undefeated IMO.

I heard today that there's talk of a potential rematch because of Pac's shoulder. I say no thanks to that. I would like to see him fight Thurman but there's no way that will happen because Thurman is too dangerous. He will probably fight Kahn which has no appeal to me. He says he will have one more fight and then will retire; I say I'm ready for the Mayweather era to be over.

User avatar
luvthemud
Rank: Champion
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:54 pm
Location: The Holyland, WI

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by luvthemud » Tue May 05, 2015 6:22 pm

nyhusker95 wrote:Mayweather is very selective in choosing his opponents. He doesn't make a fight until he has a competive edge. It's no coincidence this fight didn't happen five years ago. I don't think he was scared of Pac in the ordinary sense we use the word, but think he was scared to risk losing because his record is the most important thing to him (besides $). He seems to think that an undefeated record will see cement his legacy as one of the all-time greatest, however he's never been in the difficult fights like Leonard, Hagler or Hearns. If the fans were able to choose his opponents he wouldn't be undefeated IMO.

I heard today that there's talk of a potential rematch because of Pac's shoulder. I say no thanks to that. I would like to see him fight Thurman but there's no way that will happen because Thurman is too dangerous. He will probably fight Kahn which has no appeal to me. He says he will have one more fight and then will retire; I say I'm ready for the Mayweather era to be over.
Pacquio is done for 9 months to a year. That combined with the lawsuit that was filed against him, and the fines and ban for lying about the injury will end his career IMO.

My bet is that Mayweather will fight twice, just to have the 50-0 record. I disagree that he hasn't fought quality opponents. Who should he have faced that he hasn't? Besides Pacquio 5 years ago, I can't think of anyone that deserved a shot at him that didn't get one?

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by birddogger » Tue May 05, 2015 9:37 pm

Actually, I am surprised this topic drew as many comments as it has. It does my heart good. :)

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by Neil » Tue May 05, 2015 10:49 pm

I am honestly asking for information from the more knowledgeable. When and why did it change that you could fight defensively and win?

Counter- punching has always been a very effective strategy, but you had to get a KO, or only depend on it for less than half the rounds, even if the champion.

I really think if they scored giving more importance to offense the fights would be more exciting. Rarely will a counter-punch have as much power as an advancing fighter. It is like they count touch's, as though all contact is the same, which is just not true. I think it is why we have so many decisions and TKO s and so few true knock outs. It is almost like they are trying to take the violence out of it.

What would happen if his opponent would not advance on Floyd, would they just stand there?

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by Neil » Tue May 05, 2015 10:53 pm

]I am honestly asking for information from the more knowledgeable. When and why did it change that you could fight defensively and win?

Counter- punching has always been a very effective strategy, but you had to get a KO, or only depend on it for less than half the rounds, even if the champion.

I really think if they scored giving more importance to offense the fights would be more exciting. Rarely will a counter-punch have as much power as an advancing fighter. It is like they count touchs, as though all contact is the same, which is just not true. I think it is why we have so many decisions and TKO s and so few true knock outs. It is almost like they are trying to take the violence out of it.

What would happen if his opponent would not advance on Floyd, would they just stand there?

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by birddogger » Wed May 06, 2015 12:31 am

Neil, actually a counter punch is the most damaging punch you can get hit with because the advancing fighter is moving into the punch as he throws his own and never sees it coming. There are probably more devastating knockouts from counter punches than any other type of punch. The other thing is, the aggressor will usually win the fight, but the key is it has got to be effective aggressiveness. Simply moving in and not connecting with any meaningful punches, while getting hit with counter punches just won't get it.

Your question about what would happen if neither fighter initiated the action. My guess is, in the case of this fight, Mayweather would have taken charge and stopped Pacquio. Of course that would never happen because of Pacquio's style. Now, for the TKO versus KO. Boxing is called "the manly art of self defense". Hit and not get hit is the goal. Naturally all fighters would prefer to score a knockout and almost all fans prefer seeing a knockout, especially in a title fight. But due to many fighters being seriously injured and killed over the years, there have been rule changes and fights get stopped faster than they did years ago. This is why you will see more TKOs versus out and out knockouts

Hope this helps,
Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

Mountaineer
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1630
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:23 pm
Location: State?...The one where ruffed grouse were.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by Mountaineer » Wed May 06, 2015 6:01 am

IF, boxing is considered the sweet science then counter-punching is a legitimate part of the equation to win....much as the mighty jab.

This latest bit of artfully managed pugilism is an example of boxing's decline, to me....boxing promoters are more than a bit mired in the Past and murkey reputations.
The focus upon stars rather than the development of stars also hurts...the Olympics often appear tainted and I suspect that amateur boxing receives little attention other than at that every few years level.

Apart from the knockouts and domination and athleticism that has developed MMA beyond the back streets, MMA has delivered to the public both heros, villians and action aplenty within it's own science.
Boxing....just not enough there to hold the interest of enough people.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by Neil » Wed May 06, 2015 3:32 pm

I have no problem with counter-punching, but if it is all you do, you best get a KO. You should not be able to win a decision. So you are taking a risk.

Sorry I find MMA boring.

Mountaineer
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1630
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:23 pm
Location: State?...The one where ruffed grouse were.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by Mountaineer » Wed May 06, 2015 3:42 pm

I don't care for opera, jazz or the piccolo but, I also bore easily and know little to nothing of any of the three....it's a burden with which I live.

nyhusker95
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:04 pm
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by nyhusker95 » Wed May 06, 2015 5:41 pm

luvthemud wrote:
nyhusker95 wrote:Mayweather is very selective in choosing his opponents. He doesn't make a fight until he has a competive edge. It's no coincidence this fight didn't happen five years ago. I don't think he was scared of Pac in the ordinary sense we use the word, but think he was scared to risk losing because his record is the most important thing to him (besides $). He seems to think that an undefeated record will see cement his legacy as one of the all-time greatest, however he's never been in the difficult fights like Leonard, Hagler or Hearns. If the fans were able to choose his opponents he wouldn't be undefeated IMO.

I heard today that there's talk of a potential rematch because of Pac's shoulder. I say no thanks to that. I would like to see him fight Thurman but there's no way that will happen because Thurman is too dangerous. He will probably fight Kahn which has no appeal to me. He says he will have one more fight and then will retire; I say I'm ready for the Mayweather era to be over.
Pacquio is done for 9 months to a year. That combined with the lawsuit that was filed against him, and the fines and ban for lying about the injury will end his career IMO.

My bet is that Mayweather will fight twice, just to have the 50-0 record. I disagree that he hasn't fought quality opponents. Who should he have faced that he hasn't? Besides Pacquio 5 years ago, I can't think of anyone that deserved a shot at him that didn't get one?
It's not just who you fight, but also when you fight them. What A level fighter has he fought in their prime? I can think of Diego Coralles and Zab Judah (who might be more like a B+). He also fought Jose Louis Castillo, a very good fighter, which I think he lost. The rematch Floyd clearly won. De La Hoya and Mosley were well past their primes. Hatton and Marquez both came up in weight for the first time to fight him. Cotto wasn't the same after the Margarito and Pac beatings. Gotti, although exciting, was a b to b+ level fighter etc etc.

He didn't fight Tim Bradley before his fights w PAC at 147; Sergio Martinez or Paul Williams at 154 even though he held a belt in that division. He did fight Carnelo Alvarez at 154 and I give him credit for that but Alvarez hadn't been in any tough fights before that so I felt he was a little overhyped, but still a good win for Floyd in a fight he dominated. There are others too but I can't remember their names off the top of my head.

I give him credit for being a very good fighter. However, he is not the best ever nor would he be undefeated in the Leonard era or further back. Aaron Pryor, Thomas Hearns, Roberto Duran, Wilfred Benetiz and Alexis Argueo , and of course Sugar Ray, all would have given him a run for his money. Although we probably wouldn't have seen it, at least not in their primes bc Floyd is too Selective IMO.

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by birddogger » Wed May 06, 2015 5:54 pm

Mountaineer wrote:IF, boxing is considered the sweet science then counter-punching is a legitimate part of the equation to win....much as the mighty jab.

This latest bit of artfully managed pugilism is an example of boxing's decline, to me....boxing promoters are more than a bit mired in the Past and murkey reputations.
The focus upon stars rather than the development of stars also hurts...the Olympics often appear tainted and I suspect that amateur boxing receives little attention other than at that every few years level.

Apart from the knockouts and domination and athleticism that has developed MMA beyond the back streets, MMA has delivered to the public both heros, villians and action aplenty within it's own science.
Boxing....just not enough there to hold the interest of enough people.
Good and accurate comments IMO.
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by birddogger » Wed May 06, 2015 6:20 pm

Neil wrote:I have no problem with counter-punching, but if it is all you do, you best get a KO. You should not be able to win a decision. So you are taking a risk.

Sorry I find MMA boring.
I agree completely, especially with the last comment. I was only trying to explain the effectiveness of the counter punch, but the aggressor had better be landing some affective punches because if all he is doing is moving forward throwing punches without landing, he simply cannot win. After all, it is a sport which is scored on points vs. who is the "toughest". It is not a street fight. And if both contestants are nothing but counter punchers and there is little action, a good referee will warn them that they had better start fighting and will go to both corners at the end of a round and warn fighters and handlers. If it continues, the referee can stop the fight and declare a no contest and rightly so. I have seen it happen several times over the course of many years of following and being involved in the sport. As you have already pointed out, counter punching is an important part of boxing, as is forcing the action. A good fighter has to be able to do it all. So I believe we are in agreement on most of what you say. I was just trying to clarify a couple of things you questioned.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by birddogger » Wed May 06, 2015 6:46 pm

nyhusker95 wrote:
luvthemud wrote:
nyhusker95 wrote:Mayweather is very selective in choosing his opponents. He doesn't make a fight until he has a competive edge. It's no coincidence this fight didn't happen five years ago. I don't think he was scared of Pac in the ordinary sense we use the word, but think he was scared to risk losing because his record is the most important thing to him (besides $). He seems to think that an undefeated record will see cement his legacy as one of the all-time greatest, however he's never been in the difficult fights like Leonard, Hagler or Hearns. If the fans were able to choose his opponents he wouldn't be undefeated IMO.

I heard today that there's talk of a potential rematch because of Pac's shoulder. I say no thanks to that. I would like to see him fight Thurman but there's no way that will happen because Thurman is too dangerous. He will probably fight Kahn which has no appeal to me. He says he will have one more fight and then will retire; I say I'm ready for the Mayweather era to be over.
Pacquio is done for 9 months to a year. That combined with the lawsuit that was filed against him, and the fines and ban for lying about the injury will end his career IMO.

My bet is that Mayweather will fight twice, just to have the 50-0 record. I disagree that he hasn't fought quality opponents. Who should he have faced that he hasn't? Besides Pacquio 5 years ago, I can't think of anyone that deserved a shot at him that didn't get one?
It's not just who you fight, but also when you fight them. What A level fighter has he fought in their prime? I can think of Diego Coralles and Zab Judah (who might be more like a B+). He also fought Jose Louis Castillo, a very good fighter, which I think he lost. The rematch Floyd clearly won. De La Hoya and Mosley were well past their primes. Hatton and Marquez both came up in weight for the first time to fight him. Cotto wasn't the same after the Margarito and Pac beatings. Gotti, although exciting, was a b to b+ level fighter etc etc.

He didn't fight Tim Bradley before his fights w PAC at 147; Sergio Martinez or Paul Williams at 154 even though he held a belt in that division. He did fight Carnelo Alvarez at 154 and I give him credit for that but Alvarez hadn't been in any tough fights before that so I felt he was a little overhyped, but still a good win for Floyd in a fight he dominated. There are others too but I can't remember their names off the top of my head.

I give him credit for being a very good fighter. However, he is not the best ever nor would he be undefeated in the Leonard era or further back. Aaron Pryor, Thomas Hearns, Roberto Duran, Wilfred Benetiz and Alexis Argueo , and of course Sugar Ray, all would have given him a run for his money. Although we probably wouldn't have seen it, at least not in their primes bc Floyd is too Selective IMO.
husker, you are right on and I don't believe a boring fighter such as Mayweather, regardless of his talent and undefeated record could ever be considered one of the greatest of all time, which he thinks he is. However, I do have to give him credit for becoming a champion and multi millionaire and probably leaving the sport unmarked with no injuries.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by Neil » Wed May 06, 2015 7:26 pm

Charlie,

Thank you for sharing your expertise.

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by birddogger » Wed May 06, 2015 7:40 pm

I would just like to add one more thing about the sport of boxing. I don't think non boxing fans understand what a complex sport [if that is the right word] it is. Boxing is brutal but it is also an art. I personally spent many hours/years with boxing gloves on my hands. I was blessed with fast hands and some natural ability but I was not a big power puncher. However, I put more than one opponent down, usually with a counter punch. The reason I mention this is to try and explain to the non boxing fans some of the things that go into the sport. When an opponent went down, it wasn't necessarily the power of the punch but rather the leverage, timing and accuracy/placement of the punch. Also, the velocity of the punch. Speed equals power vs. raw muscular power. Accuracy of the punch is extremely important. A solid punch to the end of the chin will shut the light switch off [so to speak] and it doesn't necessarily have to be an extremely hard punch. A shot to the temple will take the legs out from under an opponent. A punch to the jaw or behind the ear will many times put an opponent down also. A power punch to the cheek bone or forehead will seldom have any affect on an experienced boxer. A solid punch to the solar plexus is also devastating and will paralyze an opponent even if the punch is not that powerful. This is why a proper stance is important, making the vulnerable areas a difficult target. And of course, knowing the proper way to throw a punch makes it all happen. I apologize for the length post and getting away from the original topic, but I am just trying to educate the non boxing fans to the fact that there is much more to this sport than two guys just standing there pummeling each other. There really is a science to it.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
luvthemud
Rank: Champion
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:54 pm
Location: The Holyland, WI

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by luvthemud » Wed May 06, 2015 11:23 pm

nyhusker95 wrote:
luvthemud wrote:
nyhusker95 wrote:Mayweather is very selective in choosing his opponents. He doesn't make a fight until he has a competive edge. It's no coincidence this fight didn't happen five years ago. I don't think he was scared of Pac in the ordinary sense we use the word, but think he was scared to risk losing because his record is the most important thing to him (besides $). He seems to think that an undefeated record will see cement his legacy as one of the all-time greatest, however he's never been in the difficult fights like Leonard, Hagler or Hearns. If the fans were able to choose his opponents he wouldn't be undefeated IMO.

I heard today that there's talk of a potential rematch because of Pac's shoulder. I say no thanks to that. I would like to see him fight Thurman but there's no way that will happen because Thurman is too dangerous. He will probably fight Kahn which has no appeal to me. He says he will have one more fight and then will retire; I say I'm ready for the Mayweather era to be over.
Pacquio is done for 9 months to a year. That combined with the lawsuit that was filed against him, and the fines and ban for lying about the injury will end his career IMO.

My bet is that Mayweather will fight twice, just to have the 50-0 record. I disagree that he hasn't fought quality opponents. Who should he have faced that he hasn't? Besides Pacquio 5 years ago, I can't think of anyone that deserved a shot at him that didn't get one?
It's not just who you fight, but also when you fight them. What A level fighter has he fought in their prime? I can think of Diego Coralles and Zab Judah (who might be more like a B+). He also fought Jose Louis Castillo, a very good fighter, which I think he lost. The rematch Floyd clearly won. De La Hoya and Mosley were well past their primes. Hatton and Marquez both came up in weight for the first time to fight him. Cotto wasn't the same after the Margarito and Pac beatings. Gotti, although exciting, was a b to b+ level fighter etc etc.

He didn't fight Tim Bradley before his fights w PAC at 147; Sergio Martinez or Paul Williams at 154 even though he held a belt in that division. He did fight Carnelo Alvarez at 154 and I give him credit for that but Alvarez hadn't been in any tough fights before that so I felt he was a little overhyped, but still a good win for Floyd in a fight he dominated. There are others too but I can't remember their names off the top of my head.

I give him credit for being a very good fighter. However, he is not the best ever nor would he be undefeated in the Leonard era or further back. Aaron Pryor, Thomas Hearns, Roberto Duran, Wilfred Benetiz and Alexis Argueo , and of course Sugar Ray, all would have given him a run for his money. Although we probably wouldn't have seen it, at least not in their primes bc Floyd is too Selective IMO.
I will agree that he should have fought Bradley and I really dont know what to think of Martinez. Not only did he sort of come on all of a sudden, but i still dont know the entire story behind losing his belts. I dont believe Paul Williams was deserving of a shot. Not only was he more boring to watch than Floyd, many accused him of cherry picking his opponents even more. His last few fights even brought up mention of judges handing him wins if i remember correctly. I think Ortiz was in his prime when they met, and Guerrero (sp) too for that matter.

FWIW: I actually thought that the "past his prime" De La Hoya beat Mayweather. I had him edging Mayweather by one round. Still think that was Floyd's toughest fight I have ever seen.

Mountaineer
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1630
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:23 pm
Location: State?...The one where ruffed grouse were.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by Mountaineer » Thu May 07, 2015 5:37 am

birddogger wrote:.... that there is much more to this sport than two guys just standing there pummeling each other. There really is a science to it.
Yes.....as with many or all combat-type sports.

At one time the top Judo guy( since I can't recall the name) fought the original Gracie as brazilian jiu-jiusitu(sp) was new and claims were made....by many, BJJ was considered Basically Just Judo.
The Japanese fella eventually won but not before going several rounds(5?) and time after time being countered or put in jeopardy by Gracie.
At the end and in triumph, the winner bowed to Gracie and said...supposedly, "Teach me".
Whether it be martial art or boxing or Krav Maga, there is science involved in the tussle and art within the science that can be appreciated if the mind is open to more than what the eye sees.
To me....therein could be considered a connection to the 16 gauge. :)

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by birddogger » Thu May 07, 2015 4:52 pm

I love the 16 gauge and understand your comment about it. :D

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by Neil » Fri May 08, 2015 2:31 am

birddogger wrote:I love the 16 gauge and understand your comment about it. :D

Charlie
And I never had need for a 16 gauge, and we prove his comment.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Any boxing fans here?

Post by Neil » Fri May 08, 2015 2:46 am

I have been thinking about defensive boxing and counter-punching, trying to remember what coaches and referees told me in the old days.

When counter-punching your weight is most likely on your back foot, center body mass is rearward, and momentum is static. All a way of saying it usually lacks the same power as an offensive blow. It is often more like a slap than a hit, it stings more than stuns. It is simple physics.

At some point the officials decided that not true.

Post Reply