Cecil the Lion

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Cecil the Lion

Post by MATT4126 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:18 am

Wondering what everyone's thoughts are on this somewhat sad news. I love to hunt and watch my dog do what she was bred to do, but have a hard time wrapping my arms around a big game hunt like this. Maybe it is because I would never want to spend that kind of money to hunt, or maybe it is that I don't need a trophy at the end of a hunt...only memories of being in the woods and my dog and an occasional bird in my back pocket. It's hard to make much sense of the entire story due to the media slant, and self serving nature of the African government. For now, I will patiently wait for Virginia bird season to open in a couple of months and hope the Grouse numbers are up a bit.

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by kninebirddog » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:27 am

Animal rights activist and the media are more then likely twisting and spinning this to their agenda
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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:43 am

kninebirddog wrote:Animal rights activist and the media are more then likely twisting and spinning this to their agenda
Of course they are and the Animal Rights people love it. That type of hunting is not my choice but for those that like it, mit is as good as what we like. I like the comparison we are seeing comparing the reaction to the reaction of the Planned Parenthood scandal. !000X more concern about a lion as an unborn fetus. Do you think maybe we are in trouble?
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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Neil » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:56 am

Despite what is being publicized trophy hunting brings in 25% of the tourism dollars to most of the African countries with big game. The money feeds thousands, used for habitat improvement and to curb poaching. But most importantly, it is not our business what they do with their resources.

Like the great writer Havilah Babcock, "I Never Wanted to Shoot an Elephant", but if done legally, we should support.

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Quailcommando » Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:19 am

The guys a poacher been in trouble before over a bear that he killed. Media does blow things up but they went on a wildlife preserve and lured this lion off then killed him. This is bad for him no matter how you look at it.

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by mnaj_springer » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:05 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
kninebirddog wrote:Animal rights activist and the media are more then likely twisting and spinning this to their agenda
Of course they are and the Animal Rights people love it. That type of hunting is not my choice but for those that like it, mit is as good as what we like. I like the comparison we are seeing comparing the reaction to the reaction of the Planned Parenthood scandal. !000X more concern about a lion as an unborn fetus. Do you think maybe we are in trouble?
I didn't see/hear this comparison Ezzy... Can you update me? Or provide a link if you have one?
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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by polmaise » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:00 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
kninebirddog wrote:Animal rights activist and the media are more then likely twisting and spinning this to their agenda
Of course they are and the Animal Rights people love it. That type of hunting is not my choice but for those that like it, mit is as good as what we like. I like the comparison we are seeing comparing the reaction to the reaction of the Planned Parenthood scandal. !000X more concern about a lion as an unborn fetus. Do you think maybe we are in trouble?
I didn't see/hear this comparison Ezzy... Can you update me? Or provide a link if you have one?
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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by shags » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:07 pm


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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by SubMariner » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:32 pm

Quailcommando wrote:The guys a poacher been in trouble before over a bear that he killed. Media does blow things up but they went on a wildlife preserve and lured this lion off then killed him. This is bad for him no matter how you look at it.
Exactly.

There is hunting, and then there is this "big game" BS. I think people need to remember that distinction.
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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by MATT4126 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:04 pm

I guess that is my struggle as well. This seems like a senseless killing of an animal that was supposed to be protected. It was done in what appears to be an illegal manner, and the guy who shot the animal isn't taking any responsibility. If I'm pulling the trigger or shooting the arrow I am making darn sure I am licensed and understand the law of the land.

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Neil » Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:43 pm

The major networks did spend much more time on Cecil than Planned Parenthood:

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/culture/ka ... tfkt2:QThC

And social media was even more lopsided.

Guys if it is lawful hunting, and it has not been proven it was not in this case, we have no right to judge. I can make a logical case fishing is wrong.

Neil

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Gertie » Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:57 pm

I'm honestly a little surprised at the amount of attention this is actually getting. That said, I hope they make an example out of this guy and throw the book at him. Poaching is bad, high profile poaching like this is really bad and is also terrible for sportsmen. With that said, I'm a little confused about why anyone who cares about hunting is supporting this guy in anyway. He's contributing to a growing number of the uninformed populace's idea that we're all a bunch of unethical animal killers that are more concerned about acquiring trophies and bragging rights than we are about conservation, enjoying the outdoors, and legally participating in a great heritage and tradition. Groups like Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Quail Forever, Wild Turkey Federation, etc. have worked very hard to not only restore habitat and encourage conservation, but also demonstrate to the public that most hunters are ethical and responsible people who genuinely care about wildlife and are willing to put their money where their mouth is to prove it. In short, this kind of negative publicity just makes maintaining a positive image of hunters more difficult and provides ammo for those who are looking for excuses to go after hunting/hunters in general.
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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:37 pm

Gertie wrote:I'm honestly a little surprised at the amount of attention this is actually getting. That said, I hope they make an example out of this guy and throw the book at him. Poaching is bad, high profile poaching like this is really bad and is also terrible for sportsmen. With that said, I'm a little confused about why anyone who cares about hunting is supporting this guy in anyway. He's contributing to a growing number of the uninformed populace's idea that we're all a bunch of unethical animal killers that are more concerned about acquiring trophies and bragging rights than we are about conservation, enjoying the outdoors, and legally participating in a great heritage and tradition. Groups like Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Quail Forever, Wild Turkey Federation, etc. have worked very hard to not only restore habitat and encourage conservation, but also demonstrate to the public that most hunters are ethical and responsible people who genuinely care about wildlife and are willing to put their money where their mouth is to prove it. In short, this kind of negative publicity just makes maintaining a positive image of hunters more difficult and provides ammo for those who are looking for excuses to go after hunting/hunters in general.
Gertie, I think we all will agree but first we have to verify that what we are reading is what happened. Several later articles have a different story and I also want o know if it was the outfitter who was at fault. I am not taking sides till I know the facts which I don't feel that wse do yet.
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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Gertie » Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:48 pm

I don't know why this duplicated. See below.
Last edited by Gertie on Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Gertie » Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:49 pm

Gertie wrote:I get that. However, he was the one who took the shot so, ultimately, it's his responsibility to know the laws and ensure he's in compliance. The lion was shot at night, on property that did not possess the proper permits, was baited out of the park, and shot with a compound bow. These are known and undisputed facts as reported by park officials and confirmed by the two guides. Each one of those individual acts is illegal in that country and that is poaching. The other stuff (intentionally shooting with a bow to avoid alerting park rangers, trying to destroy the GPS collar, etc. etc.) are still up for debate but at a minimum he illegally killed the lion. This man also has a past history of poaching violations which indicates he's more than willing to act illegally to get what he's paid for.
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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Quailcommando » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:13 pm

Neil wrote:The major networks did spend much more time on Cecil than Planned Parenthood:

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/culture/ka ... tfkt2:QThC

And social media was even more lopsided.

Guys if it is lawful hunting, and it has not been proven it was not in this case, we have no right to judge. I can make a logical case fishing is wrong.

Neil
Got to have a permit which no one had so someone broke the law.

I bet you make sure you have everything required by law before you pull the trigger on anything!

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Neil » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:32 pm

Quailcommando wrote:
Neil wrote:The major networks did spend much more time on Cecil than Planned Parenthood:

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/culture/ka ... tfkt2:QThC

And social media was even more lopsided.

Guys if it is lawful hunting, and it has not been proven it was not in this case, we have no right to judge. I can make a logical case fishing is wrong.

Neil
Got to have a permit which no one had so someone broke the law.

I bet you make sure you have everything required by law before you pull the trigger on anything!
Of course, we all try to be legal. Since they have pled not guilty, I think it highly unlikely the PHs have testified to any illegal acts. Most of the supposed facts are coming from avid anti-hunting groups. PETA and HSUS are leading the charge, that is all we should need to know.

Again, trophy hunting is vital to Africa.

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by cjhills » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:17 pm

Quail commander: How do you know no one had a permit? Remember all the information is from Bunny Hugging non-hunters or Anti- hunters.
Wealthy hunters pay huge amounts to hunt in Africa. A good share of which goes to the various governments. Without this income many species would likely be extinct.
All we know for sure is that he paid a outfitter a large amount of money for a trophy lion hunt. Do you really think an outfitter, in a country like Africa, where trophy hunts are the largest source of income to support conservation and are carefully controlled ,would take a client hunting without the proper permits. They shoot lions over bait all the time. We do not know if they intentionally lured this particular lion off a preserve or if he just happened to be in the wrong place. We also do not know if the hunter knew anything at all about the lion possibly being illegal. It seems rather unlikely since there was no way they would not get caught.
Might be a bit premature to judge. I think we need a few more facts before the public lynching, which is already happening in Minneapolis...................Cj
Last edited by cjhills on Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by mnaj_springer » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:25 pm

polmaise wrote:
mnaj_springer wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Of course they are and the Animal Rights people love it. That type of hunting is not my choice but for those that like it, mit is as good as what we like. I like the comparison we are seeing comparing the reaction to the reaction of the Planned Parenthood scandal. !000X more concern about a lion as an unborn fetus. Do you think maybe we are in trouble?
I didn't see/hear this comparison Ezzy... Can you update me? Or provide a link if you have one?
Wake up school boy :lol:
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I wish you'd go back to blocking my comments. I liked that one day.

Anyway, I think the problem with making comparisons (I've also seen comparisons to the shooting in Chattanooga) is that it turns off the ears and minds of people, even if they initially agree because it brings other issues into the equation. For example, I personally am against abortion, but I don't think regulations, shaming, or smear tactics will end abortion, but with that said, the comparison made me forget about the actual issue here (briefly). We must be careful of that.

Personally, I think the hunting community should CONDEMN this man (if we find out he is truly at fault)! We should shout it from the rooftops: "This man is a poacher and he is wrong for killing this lion." But we should also be very clear that we only condemn this INDIVIDUAL for his OWN ACTIONS. And use that platform to talk about ethical hunting. I think this would take animal activists by surprise, briefly shutting them up, and it would make our hunting community come across as balanced and fair.

But I'm just a "school boy," so what do I know? Heck I can hardly feed myself, right Polmaise?
Last edited by mnaj_springer on Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Neil » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:27 pm

Well said CJ. Once again we are allowing the Left to try and convict these people with their version of facts. "Hands up, don't shoot". He may well be gulty, but we don't know, yet.

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by mnaj_springer » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:35 pm

Neil wrote:Well said CJ. Once again we are allowing the Left to try and convict these people with their version of facts. "Hands up, don't shoot". He may well be gulty, but we don't know, yet.
This^^^^ Politicizing this issue is not how you further your cause! I want to argue with you (I hope I don't) because you've now compared this to a COMPLETELY different issue, unrelated to poaching. And that's despite the fact that I mostly agree with you on the point that we don't really know the whole story.
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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Neil » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:14 pm

That is where we disagree, I think it a very accurate comparison. I, along of most of the country, thought for months that Michael Brown was shot down by a rabid police officer, because that is what the Left leaning media told us. Even after the truth belied that narrative, many continue to believe it, perhaps you are one of them.

Regardless of the legal outcome in this matter, most will believe the dentist guilty.

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Neil » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:45 pm

From a recent news release:
Despite global media coverage of Cecil's killing, the big cat's untimely demise has gone largely unnoticed in Zimbabwe, where average annual income is just over $1,000 and unemployment is higher than 80 percent.

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by mnaj_springer » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:48 pm

Neil wrote:That is where we disagree, I think it a very accurate comparison. I, along of most of the country, thought for months that Michael Brown was shot down by a rabid police officer, because that is what the Left leaning media told us. Even after the truth belied that narrative, many continue to believe it, perhaps you are one of them.

Regardless of the legal outcome in this matter, most will believe the dentist guilty.
Neil, I never stated whether or not it's an accurate comparison, so you don't know if we disagree on that. You missed the point... Bringing up unrelated events does nothing to further your viewpoint; it only distracts from it. That's the point.
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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Neil » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:24 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:
Neil wrote:That is where we disagree, I think it a very accurate comparison. I, along of most of the country, thought for months that Michael Brown was shot down by a rabid police officer, because that is what the Left leaning media told us. Even after the truth belied that narrative, many continue to believe it, perhaps you are one of them.

Regardless of the legal outcome in this matter, most will believe the dentist guilty.
Neil, I never stated whether or not it's an accurate comparison, so you don't know if we disagree on that. You missed the point... Bringing up unrelated events does nothing to further your viewpoint; it only distracts from it. That's the point.
OK, that is not how I was taught debate nor consistent with my knowledge of human logic. A comparison or analogy will often gain acceptance of your position, even if not germane. If A is believed to be true by the audience, equating it with B, makes B more likely true. In this case, that Brown was a thug is true and germane, as the Left tried to convince us he was a surrendering gentle giant. They are now trying to convince us the Dentist is guilty. It fails only if you, as part of the audience, do not believe A to be true.

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Quailcommando » Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:30 am

cjhills wrote:Quail commander: How do you know no one had a permit? Remember all the information is from Bunny Hugging non-hunters or Anti- hunters.
Wealthy hunters pay huge amounts to hunt in Africa. A good share of which goes to the various governments. Without this income many species would likely be extinct.
All we know for sure is that he paid a outfitter a large amount of money for a trophy lion hunt. Do you really think an outfitter, in a country like Africa, where trophy hunts are the largest source of income to support conservation and are carefully controlled ,would take a client hunting without the proper permits. They shoot lions over bait all the time. We do not know if they intentionally lured this particular lion off a preserve or if he just happened to be in the wrong place. We also do not know if the hunter knew anything at all about the lion possibly being illegal. It seems rather unlikely since there was no way they would not get caught.
Might be a bit premature to judge. I think we need a few more facts before the public lynching, which is already happening in Minneapolis...................Cj
I absolutely believe outfitters break laws in order to make money! Like everyone keeps saying trophy hunting is a huge source of income no permits(If this is the case)means no pay check got to do something to make money.

I don't know the guy did anything wrong but I do know he is a poacher and people like him have made it tuff on us hunters that follow laws. No matter the outcome everyone one is still going form there own opinion on what really happened.

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by cjhills » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:06 am

Neil wrote:Well said CJ. Once again we are allowing the Left to try and convict these people with their version of facts. "Hands up, don't shoot". He may well be gulty, but we don't know, yet.
I do not believe it is only the leftists who are trying to jump on this political band wagon. This is a equal opportunity political event
It does not appear to be all that serious over there. Apparently $1,000 bail for the outfitter and the landowner. Pretty sure they want to get their hands on the guy with the deep pockets.
If everything is in order is it worse to shoot a lion named Cecil than it would be to shoot a unnamed lion and how would you know the difference.
Every big game animal I ever shot was beheaded sooner or later. Sometimes it was not pretty and none wanted to die. Birds either for that matter..............................Cj

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by MATT4126 » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:13 am

Valid point. If the hunter or guides knew the supposed importance of this particular lion to the eco-system would they have still pursued him and killed him? Nobody really knows, but the three of them. However, was this lion any more important than any other lion?

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by shags » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:25 am

Cj brings up a good point - would there be this much outrage if the dentist had killed just another lion instead of a big cat named Cecil? On every other forum I visit where this incident is being discussed, the antis do not refer to the lion as 'the lion' or 'the cat' but by his name, as if he had been their own personal house pet.

Seems kind of odd that progressives/leftists are flipping out about a dead lion, meanwhile Boca Haram beheads 10 fisherman and nary a word...but htat's business as usual in their world.

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Quailcommando » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:40 am

You guys are funny:)

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by DonF » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:12 pm

Lucky thing the guy didn't shoot Bambi!
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:00 pm

How many on here have actually hunted in Africa?

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by mnaj_springer » Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:02 pm

Neil wrote:
mnaj_springer wrote:
Neil wrote:That is where we disagree, I think it a very accurate comparison. I, along of most of the country, thought for months that Michael Brown was shot down by a rabid police officer, because that is what the Left leaning media told us. Even after the truth belied that narrative, many continue to believe it, perhaps you are one of them.

Regardless of the legal outcome in this matter, most will believe the dentist guilty.
Neil, I never stated whether or not it's an accurate comparison, so you don't know if we disagree on that. You missed the point... Bringing up unrelated events does nothing to further your viewpoint; it only distracts from it. That's the point.
OK, that is not how I was taught debate nor consistent with my knowledge of human logic. A comparison or analogy will often gain acceptance of your position, even if not germane. If A is believed to be true by the audience, equating it with B, makes B more likely true. In this case, that Brown was a thug is true and germane, as the Left tried to convince us he was a surrendering gentle giant. They are now trying to convince us the Dentist is guilty. It fails only if you, as part of the audience, do not believe A to be true.
That's exactly the point! You may have people who already agree with you, but if you bring up something they disagree with, you may lose their support. And if they don't agree with you, and you bring another unrelated and emotional topic up, you may shut their ears off completely.

If your only goal is make the people that agree with you continue to agree with you, then your strategy should work (most times). But if your goal in debating is to sway those who have opposing opinions, then you are going only push them further away... My thought is, if people have already bought what you're selling, why continue your sales pitch to them when you could sell to someone else.
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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by polmaise » Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:03 pm

How many have actually hunted ? :|

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Neil » Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:18 pm

Springer, knowing your audience is key. I am betting 90+ percent of those here do not believe Michael Brown had his hands up in surrender.

Believe what you will, I have neither the time nor inclination to teach you basic debating skills.

So please, let's get back on topic.

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by mask » Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:33 pm

Unless the rules have changed in the last twenty years, which is certainly possible, any animal that leaves a preserve or park into a legal hunting concession is fair game. The fact that he shot it with a crossbow and botched it up does not make the story any prettier and only fuels the fire. Untill all the facts are known most of this is a guess anyway.

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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by mnaj_springer » Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:55 pm

Neil wrote:Springer, knowing your audience is key. I am betting 90+ percent of those here do not believe Michael Brown had his hands up in surrender.

Believe what you will, I have neither the time nor inclination to teach you basic debating skills.

So please, let's get back on topic.
I wouldn't learn much anyway. But you do realize this site pops up when you do a google search, right? Your audience, when you post on this forum, extends beyond the membership of this forum. I think you don't know the audience as well as you think.
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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Neil » Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:57 pm

mask wrote:Unless the rules have changed in the last twenty years, which is certainly possible, any animal that leaves a preserve or park into a legal hunting concession is fair game. The fact that he shot it with a crossbow and botched it up does not make the story any prettier and only fuels the fire. Untill all the facts are known most of this is a guess anyway.
Another reason I don't believe the press is the crossbow attribution, in all the photos he is displaying a high end compound bow, generally the bow of choice with big game hunters. They don't know and don't care to get the facts straight To them all guns are automatic assault rifles.

As you say, there is a lot of speculation going on. The news media has no interest in waiting for the facts.

Neil
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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Neil » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:08 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:
Neil wrote:Springer, knowing your audience is key. I am betting 90+ percent of those here do not believe Michael Brown had his hands up in surrender.

Believe what you will, I have neither the time nor inclination to teach you basic debating skills.

So please, let's get back on topic.
I wouldn't learn much anyway. But you do realize this site pops up when you do a google search, right? Your audience, when you post on this forum, extends beyond the membership of this forum. I think you don't know the audience as well as you think.
Now I just checked the first 10 pages of Google, and as I thought this site did not come up. I enjoy this site a lot, but you are delusional if you think it is visited by millions. Check the number of views, before giving unsolicited, unneeded advice.

328 total visits to this thread.

Quailcommando
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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Quailcommando » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:26 pm

Neil, You should contact old Walter Palmer with your knowledge on everything you can probable get all charges dropped!

mnaj_springer
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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by mnaj_springer » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:41 pm

Neil, you're ridiculous. This site pops up with google searches and non-members can read. That's how people find this site. The fact that you couldn't find the site you're currently on means nothing. For all I know, you googled "colonoscopy."

And I never said it was viewed by millions... So it turns out I'm not delusional, at least regarding that thought. I am delusional in thinking this post is anything more than a way to waste some time before supper...
“Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions.”
― Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr.

Neil
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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Neil » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:49 pm

Quailcommando wrote:Neil, You should contact old Walter Palmer with your knowledge on everything you can probable get all charges dropped!
That was helpful?

Neil
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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by Neil » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:55 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:Neil, you're ridiculous. This site pops up with google searches and non-members can read. That's how people find this site. The fact that you couldn't find the site you're currently on means nothing. For all I know, you googled "colonoscopy."

And I never said it was viewed by millions... So it turns out I'm not delusional, at least regarding that thought. I am delusional in thinking this post is anything more than a way to waste some time before supper...
You are starting to annoy me, go to Google, enter "Cecil the Lion" and see if it leads you here. It is my understanding that "Views" includes all that, well, view it, not just members.

mnaj_springer
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Re: Cecil the Lion

Post by mnaj_springer » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:11 pm

Neil wrote:
mnaj_springer wrote:Neil, you're ridiculous. This site pops up with google searches and non-members can read. That's how people find this site. The fact that you couldn't find the site you're currently on means nothing. For all I know, you googled "colonoscopy."

And I never said it was viewed by millions... So it turns out I'm not delusional, at least regarding that thought. I am delusional in thinking this post is anything more than a way to waste some time before supper...
You are starting to annoy me, go to Google, enter "Cecil the Lion" and see if it leads you here. It is my understanding that "Views" includes all that, well, view it, not just members.
I know the feeling.

You're incorrigible.
“Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions.”
― Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr.

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