Identifying the Enemy

Ouzel
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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by Ouzel » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:19 am

ezzy333 wrote:I see none of you read what I posted back a while about what the term disbarred was used then and how they have changed it from disbarment to inactive. Michelle, Hillary and Bill went through th old procedure where they were disbarred even if they resigned or gave up their license. It takes a court order to get the license back, thus the term disbarred. Now, will someone tell me why that seems to be a concern when we are talking about the future.
Actually, Ezzy, we read it and are incredulous that your thinking still hasn't straightened out. There was never a change in Illinois law from "disbarred" to "inactive" as you stated in the above quote of yours. In actuality, they changed the term "COURT ORDERED inactive" to simply "inactive" to avoid any suggestion of wrongdoing (the court has to "order" the license from active to inactive). The Factcheck.org article goes on to say the implication that "Michelle Obama went on inactive status to avoid disbarment are simply false." And also, if you think Bill and Hillary were "disbarred" please cite your source. The term "disbarred" is inflammatory and is inaccurate in the way that you continue to use it. Are you confused, or are your attempts at subterfuge done on purpose? Which?

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by mask » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:22 am

While watching some jump all over each other is entertaining it probably doesn't solve much. We have our choices for what they are worth. So for me it comes down to who would be best for our country. For me it is Trump if someone feels differently so be it. Can someone tell me what Clinton has ever done that is good for our country or would qualify her as a good choice for president. She has spent the biggest part of her in life in politics so there must be something.

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by Timewise65 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:25 am

[quote="jetjockey


So you are saying that our economy under Obama is great and that it is not falling apart?

You actually think that debating 'who' changed the economic indicators is somehow important....point is, they were changed (glad you acknowledged that), therefore the brag of 5% being a great improvement in unemployment from Obama is one big lie! Now that's a fact JetJock!

By the way I am not a Bush fan either...so you barking up the wrong tree....the Bush's were bad economically, but Obama is the worst president we have ever had....!

I have no reason to prove anything to anyone or give you any information you got out of Econ 101! If that is all you studied you missed much of the best part of Economics.

Funny, like most of the screwballs on the internet.....lots to say, but no sources!
Last edited by Timewise65 on Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by Timewise65 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:34 am

[quote="cjhills"][quote="Timewise65"]cjhills..............you make this so easy!

So you defend Hillary.....here is a more comprehensive list of things you can try and defend!

cjhills...........

Nice dodge, but no cigar!

I gave you a very simple list of your candidates (Hillary) lies. All are public information and factual...yet you keep dancing and dodging!

Your assumption that Hillary was not disbarred is correct, but you have obviously assumed that she was not asked to 'not renew' her credentials or be disbarred! Now that sounds more like the Clintons in Arkansas! Do your own research...!

Some are bound to go blindly into the night....!

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by mnaj_springer » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:38 am

Timewise, you haven't cited any sources either... But those disputing your claims have (myself included). But you either refuse to read and inform yourself, you can can't comprehend what you read, or you flat out deny facts. So you have little room to make comments about "screwballs on the Internet."

The reason the timing of the change was disputed is because someone claimed Obama changed it to make his time in office look better (or at least that's the implication). But it appears to have been changed some time ago and when drawing statistical comparisons the sample size is important.

Anyway, do you have sources to cite about how terrible the economy is? Other than the proven-to-be-false "facts" that Trump spewed...
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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by DougB » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:52 am

Timewise65 wrote:[quote="jetjockey
So you are saying that our economy under Obama is great and that it is not falling apart? You actually think that debating 'who' changed the economic indicators is somehow important....point is they were changed, therefore the brag of 5% being a great improvement in employment from Obama is one big lie! Now that's a fact JetJock! By the way I am not a Bush fan either...so you barking up the wrong tree....the Bush's were bad economically, but Obama is the worst president we have ever had....!
Funny, like most of the screwballs on the internet.....lots to say, but no sources!
If you kept you job and/or had money, the economy has been great. If you lost your job, not so much. I live in an area where employment didn't drop much. At times, my employer had difficulty finding workers. He had the work to do, no applicants.

Housebuilding is up, car building is up, airplane building is up, road building is up, manufacturing in general is up. Gas prices are down, unemployment is down. We're still in Bushs' war and the country is more divided than it needs to be. Farms are planted and the crops are growing. Rachael from card services hasn't called for a while, so life is good.
Note: you are using a computer, probably in your home. You have electricity, running water, heating and cooling. You have a car. You have guns and can afford a dog. You have access to medical care, and probably eat when you want and drink clean water. Tell me again how bad life is.

It takes years to know how good a president was. Way to early to decide about Obama, except to say that you liked him or didn't like him. I do know he worked with a do-nothing congress, and as congress is charged with making the laws and spending the money, we should save up some bile to send their way. Taking the 'my way or the highway" approach just doesn't work when the country is evenly split, but both sides have gone that way.

I might just write in Micky Mouse as my candidate of choice to show that I voted, but didn't want either major candidate. Both represent things I don't want in a leader. Both feel extremely entitled. Trump has no experience, little knowledge, and lots of confidence. Like a teenager driving Dads car. Clinton is a professional politician who feeds off the rich and is more than willing to force her beliefs on me for my own good.

No reason to cite facts. Trump never has, Hillery twists and turns.
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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:13 am

mnaj_springer wrote:Timewise, you haven't cited any sources either... But those disputing your claims have (myself included). But you either refuse to read and inform yourself, you can can't comprehend what you read, or you flat out deny facts. So you have little room to make comments about "screwballs on the Internet."

The reason the timing of the change was disputed is because someone claimed Obama changed it to make his time in office look better (or at least that's the implication). But it appears to have been changed some time ago and when drawing statistical comparisons the sample size is important.

Anyway, do you have sources to cite about how terrible the economy is? Other than the proven-to-be-false "facts" that Trump spewed...
More people drawing assistance and less people working might be a clue.
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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by greg jacobs » Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:21 am

And the Supreme Court Justices he put in place. Which will impact the country for many years. I believe adversely affect the country.

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by nikegundog » Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:25 am

Ouzel wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I see none of you read what I posted back a while about what the term disbarred was used then and how they have changed it from disbarment to inactive. Michelle, Hillary and Bill went through th old procedure where they were disbarred even if they resigned or gave up their license. It takes a court order to get the license back, thus the term disbarred. Now, will someone tell me why that seems to be a concern when we are talking about the future.
Actually, Ezzy, we read it and are incredulous that your thinking still hasn't straightened out. There was never a change in Illinois law from "disbarred" to "inactive" as you stated in the above quote of yours. In actuality, they changed the term "COURT ORDERED inactive" to simply "inactive" to avoid any suggestion of wrongdoing (the court has to "order" the license from active to inactive). The Factcheck.org article goes on to say the implication that "Michelle Obama went on inactive status to avoid disbarment are simply false." And also, if you think Bill and Hillary were "disbarred" please cite your source. The term "disbarred" is inflammatory and is inaccurate in the way that you continue to use it. Are you confused, or are your attempts at subterfuge done on purpose? Which?
Slick Willy did lose his license for wrong doing.

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by mnaj_springer » Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:51 am

ezzy333 wrote:
mnaj_springer wrote:Timewise, you haven't cited any sources either... But those disputing your claims have (myself included). But you either refuse to read and inform yourself, you can can't comprehend what you read, or you flat out deny facts. So you have little room to make comments about "screwballs on the Internet."

The reason the timing of the change was disputed is because someone claimed Obama changed it to make his time in office look better (or at least that's the implication). But it appears to have been changed some time ago and when drawing statistical comparisons the sample size is important.

Anyway, do you have sources to cite about how terrible the economy is? Other than the proven-to-be-false "facts" that Trump spewed...
More people drawing assistance and less people working might be a clue.
Less people working than when? What's your source?
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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by Ouzel » Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:18 pm

Nikegundog: you are correct about Bill Clinton's disbarment. I didn't know that.

"In April [2001], Mr Clinton's Arkansas law licence was suspended for five years and he was given a $25,000 fine. He had agreed to that disbarment as a form of plea bargain in January, on the day before he left office, after reaching a deal to bring an end to the Lewinsky investigation, in which he could have faced charges for contempt."

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by DougB » Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:35 pm

When Trump said he was going to make the US great again, he failed to notice that we were already great. Always have been. We occasionally have problems, but we work it out.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/1923 ... ince-1990/
Graph showing FT employment in US 1990 to present. Note that when Obama started, the numbers were already going down. The numbers have recovered and we appear to have a record number of FT workers in the US.

http://frac.org/reports-and-resources/s ... tion-data/
SNAP participation averaged 43,571,080 persons in April 2016, a decrease of 773,134 persons compared with March 2016 and a decrease of 1,867,711 persons compared with April 2015. This is the lowest SNAP national participation level since October 2010.
The economy is not as bad as it is made out to be, unless you are out of work. There are jobs. You may need new skills. Thats just life. You may have to move. You may have to restart at a lower pay grade. Thats been going on since we went industrial. The reason we had so many illegal immigrants is that we had jobs. How do you have jobs available going unfilled alongside people complaining about being unemployed?
Last edited by DougB on Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by jetjockey » Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:39 pm

Timewise65 wrote:[quote="jetjockey


So you are saying that our economy under Obama is great and that it is not falling apart?

You actually think that debating 'who' changed the economic indicators is somehow important....point is, they were changed (glad you acknowledged that), therefore the brag of 5% being a great improvement in unemployment from Obama is one big lie! Now that's a fact JetJock!

By the way I am not a Bush fan either...so you barking up the wrong tree....the Bush's were bad economically, but Obama is the worst president we have ever had....!

I have no reason to prove anything to anyone or give you any information you got out of Econ 101! If that is all you studied you missed much of the best part of Economics.

Funny, like most of the screwballs on the internet.....lots to say, but no sources!
Yes, it was changed, well before Obama. The change actually RAISED the unemployment rate, and didnt lower it. So whatever argument your trying to make, It's not working. U3 would actually be LOWER under the old rules. As far as sources, I don't need to site facts! The sun rises every day, there really is no reason to site a source for that. Just as there is no reason to site the change that occurred in 1994. Maybe your Econ Prof should have taught you that, all of mine did. Just for the record, here's what you said.

"One of the first thing Obama did was change how such things as unemployment, and other key economic indicators are calculated and reported by the government! Or did you miss that?"

I guess the rest of us missed that, because that is categorily false! Obama DIDNT change the way UE was calculated.

In the event you actually want to learn something, you might want to read this to understand why UE was changed! But I'm sure you read this in all your Econ classes, I know I did!

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1995/10/art3full.pdf

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by DougB » Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:43 pm

http://www.nam.org/Newsroom/Top-20-Fact ... facturing/
In the most recent data, manufacturers contributed $2.17 trillion to the U.S. economy. This figure has risen since the second quarter of 2009, when manufacturers contributed $1.70 trillion. Over that same time frame, value-added output from durable goods manufacturing grew from $0.86 trillion to $1.17 trillion, with nondurable goods output up from $0.84 trillion to $0.99 trillion. -
Over the past 25 years, U.S.-manufactured goods exports more than quadrupled. In 1990, for example, manufacturers in the United States exported $329.5 billion in goods. By 2000, that number had more than doubled to $708.0 billion. In 2014, it reached an all-time high, for the fifth consecutive year, of $1.403 trillion, despite slowing global growth. However, a number of economic headwinds have dampened export demand so far in 2015, with manufactured goods exports down 4.2 percent year-to-date through the first two quarters of the year. - See more at: http://www.nam.org/Newsroom/
Just looking at numbers, it would appear to an outsider that things did not go to heck in a hand basket under Obama. But thats just from looking at facts.

And with that, I am off to the range. Local store had .22lr for sale at a reasonable price. Paper needs punching.
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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by Timewise65 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:56 pm

jetjockey wrote:
Timewise65 wrote:[quote="jetjockey

JetJock....you failed to comment of my first question (below)....for obvious reasons!

So you are saying that our economy under Obama is great and that it is not falling apart?


Then you refer us to a source controlled by OBAMA Guess you want me to use Trump of Fox News as my Source....crazy you are!

I did acknowledge your comment as to when the numbers were changed.....so you can drop that subject...but the fact they were changed makes comparisons irrelevant prior to the change...of course you already knew that. Problem is a lot of uninformed folks read that new data and do not realize it is altered compared to what was used. I am retired now and my education 'did me good service' during my working career! You should try it!

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1995/10/art3full.pdf

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by jetjockey » Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:27 pm

Timewise65 wrote:
jetjockey wrote:
Timewise65 wrote:[quote="jetjockey

JetJock....you failed to comment of my first question (below)....for obvious reasons!

So you are saying that our economy under Obama is great and that it is not falling apart?


Then you refer us to a source controlled by OBAMA Guess you want me to use Trump of Fox News as my Source....crazy you are!

I did acknowledge your comment as to when the numbers were changed.....so you can drop that subject...but the fact they were changed makes comparisons irrelevant prior to the change...of course you already knew that. Problem is a lot of uninformed folks read that new data and do not realize it is altered compared to what was used. I am retired now and my education 'did me good service' during my working career! You should try it!

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1995/10/art3full.pdf
Th economy has done well under Obama, could be better, but could be a heck of a lot worse.

You saying that the BLS is controlled by Obama is laughable. Especially since the reference I sighted was from 1995. Did Obama control the BLS in 1995? I'll tell you what, stop why your ahead, admit you were wrong, and walk away with some dignity.

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by mnaj_springer » Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:43 pm

Timewise, why do you feel like others need to comment on your questions when you fail to do the same? For example, you failed to comment on the "facts" Trump had wrong in his speech, or how Zeifman made up firing Hillary (a fictional story you are using as a character reference).

And did you miss the part about the old UE rules applied today would make the current number lower? So it sounds like adjusting all the UE rates to one method (whether new or old) would only make today's rates look better than they appear!

Anecdotes are fun and all, but they don't reflect reality... They just provide one piece to a puzzle constructed of trillions of pieces.
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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by birddogger » Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:58 pm

If you truly believe that Socialism is a good thing and think that our constitution is dated, should be rewritten, and we should follow the policies of the other socialist countries and prohibit or severely restrict the ownership of firearms, among many other things, then vote for Hillary. I am not necessarily saying she can get all these things done, but she would certainly do her best to move things in that direction. I would not support Bernie Sanders either, but he at least admits he is a Socialist and I have to respect that. Hillary will never admit to what she is. We have many problems in this country, but they are sure not caused by our democracy or our constitution, they are, in so many ways caused by our left leaning politicians and our liberal college professors indoctrinating our young people and all this stupid "political correctness". I, for one, want to keep the country that my father fought for in "World War Two". And I fear becoming a country, where my children and grandchildren have very limited freedoms and have to depend on the government for everything, with no incentive to follow their dreams and become the best they can be. I respect the right to vote the way one believes but just be careful what you ask for!!

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by nikegundog » Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:11 pm

birddogger wrote:If you truly believe that Socialism is a good thing and think that our constitution is dated, should be rewritten, and we should follow the policies of the other socialist countries and prohibit or severely restrict the ownership of firearms, among many other things, then vote for Hillary. I am not necessarily saying she can get all these things done, but she would certainly do her best to move things in that direction. I would not support Bernie Sanders either, but he at least admits he is a Socialist and I have to respect that. Hillary will never admit to what she is. We have many problems in this country, but they are sure not caused by our democracy or our constitution, they are, in so many ways caused by our left leaning politicians and our liberal college professors indoctrinating our young people and all this stupid "political correctness". I, for one, want to keep the country that my father fought for in "World War Two". And I fear becoming a country, where my children and grandchildren have very limited freedoms and have to depend on the government for everything, with no incentive to follow their dreams and become the best they can be. I respect the right to vote the way one believes but just be careful what you ask for!!

Charlie
Charlie, you just described Trump and Hillary. Democrat for almost his entire life, preached gun control, socialized healthcare and Government spying on its own people.

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by mountaindogs » Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:01 pm

I will jump in this topic. I am going 3rd party on this election. I just can not back either major candidate. I know many who will tell me I "should" vote for one or the other because I am throwing my vote to the "other" side. But if I am going to vote I am not going to pick an evil just because it might be less evil. Trump has campaigned on hate and is the epitome of big business in bed with the government. Hillary has so many evils I could go on at length but you all have discussed them already. I am voting Gary Johnson
https://www.johnsonweld.com He is not perfect. He has things I don't love, but his platform is far and away the closest to what I feel is the best for this country.

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by birddogger » Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:22 pm

nikegundog, I respect and understand what you are saying, but I have already said that I don't know what kind of president Trump would make, but I do know what kind of president Hillary would make, beginning with the most liberal supreme court justice she can find. I have also said that Trump would not be my first choice but I believe in this case he would be the better choice. I am not naive and know that he can't possibly accomplish the things he says he is going to do. The only president in my lifetime that accomplished pretty much everything he promised was Ronald Reagan [God I miss him]. Having said that,from what I know about the two, I have to go with Trump, hoping he believes in what he is saying, even if he can't accomplish it all. I could never vote for another Clinton, which would be pretty much the same as voting for another Obama, and just for the record, I have never voted for either one anyway. :wink:. The one problem I have with many people I talk to is that they have been raised as democrat or republican and they will vote the way they were raised regardless of what the candidate stands for at the time. The Democratic party has moved so far to the left that I can't support any of them on the national level. Local level is sometimes a different story. I am pretty sure that JFK would be considered a conservative if he were alive today. Anyway, I am through rambling.

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by mnaj_springer » Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:39 pm

mountaindogs wrote:I will jump in this topic. I am going 3rd party on this election. I just can not back either major candidate. I know many who will tell me I "should" vote for one or the other because I am throwing my vote to the "other" side. But if I am going to vote I am not going to pick an evil just because it might be less evil. Trump has campaigned on hate and is the epitome of big business in bed with the government. Hillary has so many evils I could go on at length but you all have discussed them already. I am voting Gary Johnson
https://www.johnsonweld.com He is not perfect. He has things I don't love, but his platform is far and away the closest to what I feel is the best for this country.
I respect this. I've considered the same, but haven't decided yet. I'm half hoping the Republican Party finds some way to oust Trump or that he one day airs a press conference and tells us he was joking and just wanted to play the greatest prank ever. But one can wish in one hand and $h!+ in the other...
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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by birddogger » Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:01 pm

mountaindogs wrote:I will jump in this topic. I am going 3rd party on this election. I just can not back either major candidate. I know many who will tell me I "should" vote for one or the other because I am throwing my vote to the "other" side. But if I am going to vote I am not going to pick an evil just because it might be less evil. Trump has campaigned on hate and is the epitome of big business in bed with the government. Hillary has so many evils I could go on at length but you all have discussed them already. I am voting Gary Johnson
https://www.johnsonweld.com He is not perfect. He has things I don't love, but his platform is far and away the closest to what I feel is the best for this country.
Believe me, I understand your thinking and frustration, however, at this point in time, I believe a 3rd party vote is the same as a wasted vote. There is no way a third party could be elected, maybe someday, but it is a long way off.

Charlie
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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by Tooling » Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:19 pm

birddogger wrote:
mountaindogs wrote:I will jump in this topic. I am going 3rd party on this election. I just can not back either major candidate. I know many who will tell me I "should" vote for one or the other because I am throwing my vote to the "other" side. But if I am going to vote I am not going to pick an evil just because it might be less evil. Trump has campaigned on hate and is the epitome of big business in bed with the government. Hillary has so many evils I could go on at length but you all have discussed them already. I am voting Gary Johnson
https://www.johnsonweld.com He is not perfect. He has things I don't love, but his platform is far and away the closest to what I feel is the best for this country.
Believe me, I understand your thinking and frustration, however, at this point in time, I believe a 3rd party vote is the same as a wasted vote. There is no way a third party could be elected, maybe someday, but it is a long way off.

Charlie
lol..my very first vote was cast for Ross Perot - as much of a fan our household is / was of Bush Sr...it was a shame that scrappy little fella' didn't win b/c he would have mixed things up but good!

Also..bear in mind, Teddy Roosevelt came closer than anyone in history running as the Bull Party..TR is arguably the greatest President the US has seen in our entire history. I sincerely wish the honor and conviction this man had could find it's way to the podium today..the man was an incredible human being!
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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by Tooling » Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:30 pm

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:15 pm

The interesting thing is that it seems the worst candidates according to the electret turn out to be the best in hind site. This is why I pay little attention to people telling us how bad someone without a record will be. And then we do have the candidates that we all have seen perform that leaves little doubt as to what they will do. The unknown versus the known should give people enough info that they would vote for the better of the two. I am 83 years old and there has never been an election when I didn't hear the loud complaint about having to vote for the lesser of two evils and of course that is right if you think neither will be perfect. But it is also known one has a chance at least of being better than the other. And that is about as good as it gets since none of us are perfect either.
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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by Ouzel » Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:18 pm

birddogger wrote:If you truly believe that Socialism is a good thing and think that our constitution is dated, should be rewritten, and we should follow the policies of the other socialist countries and prohibit or severely restrict the ownership of firearms, among many other things, then vote for Hillary. I am not necessarily saying she can get all these things done, but she would certainly do her best to move things in that direction. I would not support Bernie Sanders either, but he at least admits he is a Socialist and I have to respect that. Hillary will never admit to what she is. We have many problems in this country, but they are sure not caused by our democracy or our constitution, they are, in so many ways caused by our left leaning politicians and our liberal college professors indoctrinating our young people and all this stupid "political correctness". I, for one, want to keep the country that my father fought for in "World War Two". And I fear becoming a country, where my children and grandchildren have very limited freedoms and have to depend on the government for everything, with no incentive to follow their dreams and become the best they can be. I respect the right to vote the way one believes but just be careful what you ask for!!

Charlie
Charlie, Well, aren't we pretty much down a socialist path already? Most airlines have been through bankruptcy, as have most car manufacturers, many banks, and don't most farmers get a government subsidy of some sort to keep them from having to sleep under a bridge (federal crop insurance, price stabilization practices, etc.)? Throw in social security benefits, medicare/medicade, food stamps, welfare payments, low interest student loans, unemployment benefits, disaster relief ... etc. I saw where over 60% of all of us have at one time or the other benefited by government assistance. And so has Donald Trump. I'm not an economist but isn't that all sound like a socialist type society already? Which of these benefits would you think we should eliminate so that we can get back to the way the country was after WWII that you admire so much?

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by birddogger » Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:19 pm

Tooling,Teddy Roosevelt was before my time, but I am pretty sure they don't make them like that anymore and if they did, the PC media would destroy him/her. AS far as Ross Perot, as popular as he was, some of my friends laughed at me when I predicted he would not win even one State. Well, after the election, the laugh was on them.

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by birddogger » Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:36 pm

Ouzel wrote:
birddogger wrote:If you truly believe that Socialism is a good thing and think that our constitution is dated, should be rewritten, and we should follow the policies of the other socialist countries and prohibit or severely restrict the ownership of firearms, among many other things, then vote for Hillary. I am not necessarily saying she can get all these things done, but she would certainly do her best to move things in that direction. I would not support Bernie Sanders either, but he at least admits he is a Socialist and I have to respect that. Hillary will never admit to what she is. We have many problems in this country, but they are sure not caused by our democracy or our constitution, they are, in so many ways caused by our left leaning politicians and our liberal college professors indoctrinating our young people and all this stupid "political correctness". I, for one, want to keep the country that my father fought for in "World War Two". And I fear becoming a country, where my children and grandchildren have very limited freedoms and have to depend on the government for everything, with no incentive to follow their dreams and become the best they can be. I respect the right to vote the way one believes but just be careful what you ask for!!

Charlie
Charlie, Well, aren't we pretty much down a socialist path already? Most airlines have been through bankruptcy, as have most car manufacturers, many banks, and don't most farmers get a government subsidy of some sort to keep them from having to sleep under a bridge (federal crop insurance, price stabilization practices, etc.)? Throw in social security benefits, medicare/medicade, food stamps, welfare payments, low interest student loans, unemployment benefits, disaster relief ... etc. I saw where over 60% of all of us have at one time or the other benefited by government assistance. And so has Donald Trump. I'm not an economist but isn't that all sound like a

socialist type society already? Which of these benefits would you think we should eliminate so that we can get back to the way the country was after WWII that you

admire so much?
Hey, it is apparent that you believe in and are a left wing socialist with no regard for what our veterans have fought for and what has made this the greatest country on earth. That is your right and will not argue the point, only disagree. But yes we are already down the path of socialism because of too many people who believe as you do and that is what I would like to do my part to change.

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by mnaj_springer » Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:29 pm

birddogger wrote:If you truly believe that Socialism is a good thing and think that our constitution is dated, should be rewritten, and we should follow the policies of the other socialist countries and prohibit or severely restrict the ownership of firearms, among many other things, then vote for Hillary. I am not necessarily saying she can get all these things done, but she would certainly do her best to move things in that direction. I would not support Bernie Sanders either, but he at least admits he is a Socialist and I have to respect that. Hillary will never admit to what she is. We have many problems in this country, but they are sure not caused by our democracy or our constitution, they are, in so many ways caused by our left leaning politicians and our liberal college professors indoctrinating our young people and all this stupid "political correctness". I, for one, want to keep the country that my father fought for in "World War Two". And I fear becoming a country, where my children and grandchildren have very limited freedoms and have to depend on the government for everything, with no incentive to follow their dreams and become the best they can be. I respect the right to vote the way one believes but just be careful what you ask for!!

Charlie
So the right and far right have not caused any issues in this country? How about how Reagan and his "Reaganomics" along with his destruction of unions (one of the few ways workers could ensure fair pay increases) have increased the wage gap, essentially destroying the middle class? What about when W. Bush used our tax money to bail out corrupt banks but never held those people accountable? I'm not saying that there aren't bad things out of the left, but the right is just as destructive. They also have tried to restrict rights as well, included marriage rights.
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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by Ouzel » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:45 pm

Tooling wrote: Also..bear in mind, Teddy Roosevelt came closer than anyone in history running as the Bull Party..TR is arguably the greatest President the US has seen in our entire history. I sincerely wish the honor and conviction this man had could find it's way to the podium today..the man was an incredible human being!
He's my hero as well. He was for the little guy, hated monopolies, started the Forest Service (that would later employ Aldo Leopold), chummed extensively with John Muir (who started the Sierra Club), established many national parks, food safety, etc. He wasnt' your typical Republican though, and in fact would be hated by the Republican party of today. It's a shame we don't see many naturalists and conservationists in the Republican party anymore. And what do you think he would think of the Republican party's desire to meddle with management of our national forests?

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by Ouzel » Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:28 pm

birddogger wrote:Hey, it is apparent that you believe in and are a left wing socialist with no regard for what our veterans have fought for and what has made this the greatest country on earth. That is your right and will not argue the point, only disagree. But yes we are already down the path of socialism because of too many people who believe as you do and that is what I would like to do my part to change.

Charlie
Charlie, you don't understand where I'm coming from. I am not a left wing socialist. I used to vote Republican before it became so anti-conservation. Remember: it was Nixon who gave us the clean air act and the EPA (the latter which the Republicans of today would do away with). Then we got Reagan ("if you've seen one redwood you've seen them all") and James Watt as his Secretary of the Interior (nothing more needed to say there). Later we got George Bush who did nothing for conservation but managed to start two wars without paying for either.

You think Donald Trump is going to be a conservationist? Does anybody even care? You guys are foaming at the mouth over whether Hillary or Obama lied about something, but all politicians lie! Most are aware that they lied, but then there's Donald Trumb who's a pathological liar and who has no inkling of where the truth lies, has absolutely no knowledge of running a government, or much less any positive notions about our precious natural resources, and who thinks global warming is a Chinese conspiracy! He will be of no help in a world that's heating up from man made causes and who's population has doubled since 1960. I understand your anger over the way the government seems to be running but Trump is not going to be a friend of ours. We'll just be more losers - along with the environment.

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by Max2 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:59 am

ezzy333 wrote: And that is about as good as it gets since none of us are perfect either.
speak for yourself :D
As this thread levels off. We have the left disagreeing with the right and the right disagreeing with left. As can be expected.
as for our dogs they could care less. i do wonder where we will be a yr from now......
In the end everything will usually work itself out.

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:30 am

Ouzel wrote:.... And what do you think he would think of the Republican party's desire to meddle with management of our national forests?
Still trying and still a user, I see. :roll:

Change that, just a bit, to regard the development policy for public lands and you can get a bit of traction....a good bit in some cases.
Each party has used and will use the NFs to their benefit..instead of working to the benefit of the forest and the critters of any number of legs who benefit from them....an old story.
Each pales compared to the ignorance of the Public on what constitutes a healthy forest (in many types of forests) and especially to the obstructionists like the SELC feeding off that ignorance.
Stick to the false start of Republicans vs. Democrats on the specific management of our NFs and your experience, or rather, your bias and agenda shows.

Which leads to a bit of an epiphany for me as to intent and so to any value in further responses......this thread is most about frustration with those opposing a politico, the next politico, on each side. Frustration with a changing America and frustration with those who do not want such a drastic change. Within the frustration, once again, the NF and other critical points get co-opted as argument points w/o any care beyond their use as that argument fodder.
That is a shame for what gets twisted or what gets left behind.

Make it a good day.....the world will spin for you folks even after the election.
Would that the NFs occupy a position higher in importance than politics....then, I would have higher hopes for the world spinning for and toward healthy forests.

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by MNTonester » Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:29 pm

Believe me, it is from more than one interaction and over a 21 yr. span. Also, many of them call an ambulance [used as a taxi service] and then think they are entitled to transportation home or get irate because they don't get the narcotics they want. Be as sarcastic as you like but it is not superstition or a figment of my imagination. This abuse is real and the tax payers are footing the bill.
My previous response brought up this exact same thing. So this using of public emergency services as a free taxi fits right in with the lib agenda of "you are not responsible for yourself; the govt will provide everything; taxpayers are greedy and deserve to pay more; you didn't build that; guns are evil - ad nauseum"

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by birddogger » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:57 pm

MNTonester wrote:
Believe me, it is from more than one interaction and over a 21 yr. span. Also, many of them call an ambulance [used as a taxi service] and then think they are entitled to transportation home or get irate because they don't get the narcotics they want. Be as sarcastic as you like but it is not superstition or a figment of my imagination. This abuse is real and the tax payers are footing the bill.
My previous response brought up this exact same thing. So this using of public emergency services as a free taxi fits right in with the lib agenda of "you are not responsible for yourself; the govt will provide everything; taxpayers are greedy and deserve to pay more; you didn't build that; guns are evil - ad nauseum"
Good post and you are exactly right!!
One poster even used the word "hatred" to describe my position. I do not hate anybody, although, there are some that I dislike :D . There are so many countries where the people would not even be allowed to have this debate. My political views are centered around the Constitution, which sole purpose is to limit the power of the federal government and protect our God given rights. OMG, did i just use the name "God"? I did and that will further discredit me with the left, I am sure. Also, regarding our natural resources, so many people on the left feel that they are there for us to only look at and never use. God put them there for our use and also to admire. Oh no, I used that name again, but will not apologize for it. Responsible and educated logging is a good thing, as is responsible fishing and hunting. Resources is just what the name implies. As far as the gun control issue, there always have been and always will be evil people, but the tools or weapons they use is not the problem and restricting or denying responsible citizens of their constitutional rights will never prevent or stop the problem. I realize I am rambling so I will stop here.

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by Timewise65 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:03 pm

To ALL of you Trump haters, especially those who refer to him telling lies.

In this thread, I have twice, provided a short list of the many lies Hillary has made, that are well documented and that she herself has not denied, nor have any of you Liberals posting here denied.

Why is it that those of you that call Trump a liar, have no specific verifiable lies that he has made? It is easy to call someone liar, but to find substantive proof that he knowingly lied make it a bit more difficult! Of course, check my short list on Hillary, contained here in, and you will see how easy it is to prove that she usually lies and denies everything....and her accomplishments as SecState and First Lady were???? Yep, she could not think of any either..... :mrgreen:

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by mnaj_springer » Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:05 pm

Timewise65 wrote:To ALL of you Trump haters, especially those who refer to him telling lies.

In this thread, I have twice, provided a short list of the many lies Hillary has made, that are well documented and that she herself has not denied, nor have any of you Liberals posting here denied.

Why is it that those of you that call Trump a liar, have no specific verifiable lies that he has made? It is easy to call someone liar, but to find substantive proof that he knowingly lied make it a bit more difficult! Of course, check my short list on Hillary, contained here in, and you will see how easy it is to prove that she usually lies and denies everything....and her accomplishments as SecState and First Lady were???? Yep, she could not think of any either..... :mrgreen:
Well, Timewise, it appears you haven't been reading! Posters have referenced lawsuits regarding fraud and breech of contract, as well as the issues with Trump University. Also, Trump said he started with a small loan of $1 million. Posters here pointed out that was a lie. So yes, it has been pointed out. Maybe not always outright lies but definitely dishonesty. And don't forget the fact checking regarding his acceptance speech, which provided more examples of lies he spread.

Also, at least one of the things you pointed out regarding Hillary was clearly not true, which have yet to acknowledge.
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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by birddogger » Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:53 pm

A previous poster accused Trump of being a pathological liar. That is absolutely hilarious, when he or she apparently supports the Clintons, when Slick Willy and Hillary are both pathological liars.They both lie when there is not even a need to, not to mention the corruption and disregard for the law. Also, the demonizing of Ronald Reagan by another poster is laughable. Reagan did not destroy the middle class [as one poster stated], He actually restored the middle class after the worst recession since the depression under the policies and leader ship of Jimmy Carter. And through his policies enabled many middle class citizens to become even more successful. Besides restoring the horrible state of the economy, he played a huge part in ending the cold war with Russia.

In summarizing, he accomplished pretty much everything he promised during his campaign. Another point, I would like to make, concerning Reagan, was his respect for the White House and Oval office. Reagan would not remove his jacket while in the Oval office, because of the respect, while another former president, who the left admires so much, had no respect and would even remove his pants :roll:

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by DougB » Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:57 pm

Timewise65 wrote:To ALL of you Trump haters, especially those who refer to him telling lies.

In this thread, I have twice, provided a short list of the many lies Hillary has made, that are well documented and that she herself has not denied, nor have any of you Liberals posting here denied.

Why is it that those of you that call Trump a liar, have no specific verifiable lies that he has made? It is easy to call someone liar, but to find substantive proof that he knowingly lied make it a bit more difficult! Of course, check my short list on Hillary, contained here in, and you will see how easy it is to prove that she usually lies and denies everything....and her accomplishments as SecState and First Lady were???? Yep, she could not think of any either..... :mrgreen:
Are you saying that because Hillery lies, Trumps lies are okay? Specifically-He contracted with an architect to design and build a golf course clubhouse. Signed contract. He refused to pay. Sent out his lawyer to browbeat(make a deal) the architect and delay, delay, delay. He lied about going to pay. Lie of the first order. He lied about most of the problems he claims we have in the US. But he says it loudly and confidently, and people believe him. Google searches are so easy, but nobody wants to believe he lies.

As an aside-most people are not strictly liberal or conservative, but somewhere in the middle. Most believe we should care for and feed children, even at state expense if necessary. Most want their govt to spend money wisely.

If Trump starts out basing his presidency on false beliefs, how can he possibly perform as President? My issues with Hillery are similar, but she is rational.
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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by Max2 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:31 pm

Rational ? Perhaps a little bit more then rational could be needed. Our current President (IMO) has been more then rational with folks that still live in the stone-age ~ with little results . Time to go for a change of game plan as the terrorist's get more dangerous everyday.

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by birddogger » Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:53 pm

Max2 wrote:Rational ? Perhaps a little bit more then rational could be needed. Our current President (IMO) has been more then rational with folks that still live in the stone-age ~ with little results . Time to go for a change of game plan as the terrorist's get more dangerous everyday.
And that, IMO, is the most important issue in this election. We have many issues/ problems but I believe national security trumps everything in this election [no pun intended].

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by Timewise65 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:06 pm

DougB wrote:
Timewise65 wrote:To ALL of you Trump haters, especially those who refer to him telling lies.

In this thread, I have twice, provided a short list of the many lies Hillary has made, that are well documented and that she herself has not denied, nor have any of you Liberals posting here denied.

Why is it that those of you that call Trump a liar, have no specific verifiable lies that he has made? It is easy to call someone liar, but to find substantive proof that he knowingly lied make it a bit more difficult! Of course, check my short list on Hillary, contained here in, and you will see how easy it is to prove that she usually lies and denies everything....and her accomplishments as SecState and First Lady were???? Yep, she could not think of any either..... :mrgreen:
Are you saying that because Hillery lies, Trumps lies are okay? Specifically-He contracted with an architect to design and build a golf course clubhouse. Signed contract. He refused to pay. Sent out his lawyer to browbeat(make a deal) the architect and delay, delay, delay. He lied about going to pay. Lie of the first order. He lied about most of the problems he claims we have in the US. But he says it loudly and confidently, and people believe him. Google searches are so easy, but nobody wants to believe he lies.

As an aside-most people are not strictly liberal or conservative, but somewhere in the middle. Most believe we should care for and feed children, even at state expense if necessary. Most want their govt to spend money wisely.

If Trump starts out basing his presidency on false beliefs, how can he possibly perform as President? My issues with Hillery are similar, but she is rational.
Calling Hillary "Rational" tells me all I need to know about your logic! And what you call lies are not verifiable....your understanding of our economy is non existent (CNN BS)! Looking at the National Debt incurred by Obama alone will keep your kids, and their kids buried paying off that debt.....or did you just miss all of that?

Say good night! You been sleeping for some time....take an Econ 101 and or Finance course....

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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by mnaj_springer » Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:14 pm

Timewise why don't you run for president? You do a fantastic job of insulting rather than responding. How about the fact that Trump lied about the current state of the country in his speech, as verified by the link I provided. Or will you continue to ignore that like you have ignored that Zeifman is a crock.
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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:29 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:Timewise why don't you run for president? You do a fantastic job of insulting rather than responding. How about the fact that Trump lied about the current state of the country in his speech, as verified by the link I provided. Or will you continue to ignore that like you have ignored that Zeifman is a crock.
What you are calling lies is based on what you read and you or I have no real knowledge about things that take place in the business world, That is the difference between what Trump has done compared to what the Clinton's have done. any of us can believe what we want but it is not always the truth. Too bad we can talk about the things we have seen happen and not about the things someone else says happened.
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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by mnaj_springer » Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:48 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
mnaj_springer wrote:Timewise why don't you run for president? You do a fantastic job of insulting rather than responding. How about the fact that Trump lied about the current state of the country in his speech, as verified by the link I provided. Or will you continue to ignore that like you have ignored that Zeifman is a crock.
What you are calling lies is based on what you read and you or I have no real knowledge about things that take place in the business world, That is the difference between what Trump has done compared to what the Clinton's have done. any of us can believe what we want but it is not always the truth. Too bad we can talk about the things we have seen happen and not about the things someone else says happened.
Ezzy, I'm not deducting based on reading. It's pretty black and white in a lot of cases. My infant daughter can't talk, read, or write but I'm sure even she can understand some of these discrepancies. But if you don't understand them, that's ok.
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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by mnaj_springer » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:12 pm

Also, Ezzy, I doubt a guy who signs a contract then uses lawyers to refuse payment for services understands the everyday economics of US citizens. Which makes me think about the argument some have made about knowing what kind of president Hillary would but not knowing what kind Trump would be. That's ridiculous. Reasonable people can look at his record as a businessman and make some educated guesses. Those guesses don't look good.
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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:37 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:Also, Ezzy, I doubt a guy who signs a contract then uses lawyers to refuse payment for services understands the everyday economics of US citizens. Which makes me think about the argument some have made about knowing what kind of president Hillary would but not knowing what kind Trump would be. That's ridiculous. Reasonable people can look at his record as a businessman and make some educated guesses. Those guesses don't look good.
To you though you have no idea why someone wasn't paid. Probably had a dispute about the contract and whether both parties lived up to it. That is what normally happens in cases like that. I know I have had that experience a couple of times.
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Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by DougB » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:45 pm

Timewise65 wrote:
DougB wrote:
Timewise65 wrote:To ALL of you Trump haters, especially those who refer to him telling lies.

In this thread, I have twice, provided a short list of he possibly perform as President? My issues with Hillery are similar, but she is rational.
Calling Hillary "Rational" tells me all I need to know about your logic! And what you call lies are not verifiable....your understanding of our economy is non existent (CNN BS)! Looking at the National Debt incurred by Obama alone will keep your kids, and their kids buried paying off that debt.....or did you just miss all of that?

Say good night! You been sleeping for some time....take an Econ 101 and or Finance course....
I got both my degrees (yes, plural), including the business one, back when reading, writing, and math were university entry requirements, not graduation requirements. I have had my own business and have worked for several major retailers in management positions. When a victim stands up and says "this happened to me" and gets it published in a major trade journal, the odds are strong that it happened. CNN is not on my TV menu, but they do occasionally get things right. Attack the facts, not the messenger. Name calling and insults are not debate, but rather Trumps preferred method of attack. That, and the big lie. Surprisingly, NPR frequently interviews real experts in different fields. Some of them are conservatives. It was a conservative who made the observation that the GOP was "batshit crazy".

Hillery is rational in that she works with facts. Thinks things through, and uses experts as advisors. She understands that words and actions have consequences in the real world. I may not like the direction she chooses, but I have no idea where Trump intends to go. His misrepresentation of the US economy indicates that he has no idea of where we are. He ignores reliable sources of information, makes up what he needs, and yells loudly and confidently to his sycophants, who obediently suck it in.

Of course data on the economy is verifiable. Multiple sources. Trade magazines, government reports, college and university research projects. You want to refute the evidence, you have to do more than yell and repeat denials. Use facts. If you can find them. Cite the source once in a while. Personal opinion is just that, and needs verification to have more value than casual conversation.

Obviously you know you can not argue for Trump using facts or reality, or you would not resort to Ad Hominem attacks on someone you know nothing about.
Why own a dog? There's a danger you know,

You can't own just one, for the craving will grow.

There's no doubt they're addictive, wherein lies the danger.

While living with lots, you'll grow poorer and stranger.



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DougB
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Posts: 344
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 5:31 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Identifying the Enemy

Post by DougB » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:54 pm

To you though you have no idea why someone wasn't paid. Probably had a dispute about the contract and whether both parties lived up to it. That is what normally happens in cases like that. I know I have had that experience a couple of times.
Read the article. The injured party gave up because he was running out of money, and testified that Trumps lawyer deliberately used the courts system to bleed him dry until he gave up. It worked.
" For Brutus is an honourable man; So are they all; all honorable men"
Why own a dog? There's a danger you know,

You can't own just one, for the craving will grow.

There's no doubt they're addictive, wherein lies the danger.

While living with lots, you'll grow poorer and stranger.



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