CJ

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CJ

Post by cjhills » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:35 am

CJ is not going to go for two at The Westminster Dog Show. Entered but not going to show.
We were hoping. It has been a long time since that happened. A springer in the seventies, I think.
Good Luck to everbodie's favorite...............................Cj

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Re: CJ

Post by MNTonester » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:24 am

too bad. would a field bred springer, as opposed to a bench bred even have a chance?

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Re: CJ

Post by cjhills » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:37 am

NO...........................Cj

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Re: CJ

Post by Steve007 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:19 pm

1971 and 1972's Ch. Chinoe's Adamant James, a son of a group I Westminster winner, Salilyn's Aristocrat.

There's nothing at all wrong with a "breed split", though it is certainly not true in all working breeds. It provides the informed buyer with a broader choice in dogs and a dog far more suited to his life. Uninformed buyers can certainly make mistakes, but when has that not been the case?

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Re: CJ

Post by cjhills » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:33 pm

I agree. Most Don't......................Cj

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Re: CJ

Post by Timewise65 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:58 pm

I have been primarily running 'Swamp Collies' in Hunt Tests.....I love those retrievers and I get real tired of watching all the stylish Black dogs stealing the show! So I guess I have to say you made a good decision for what you want' in to do. Sometimes the 'Dark Side' is the best side..... :mrgreen:

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Re: CJ

Post by fishvik » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:00 am

cjhills wrote:NO...........................Cj
An Irish setter took Reserve and it looked like it would be all cockleburs the minute stepped out of the car. They should come up with a separate class for those dogs. Not Really Sporting Sporting Breeds. The German Shepard that won Best in Show was a beautiful dog that actually looked like it could be a working dog.

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Re: CJ

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:49 am

Why does it bother us so much that we care and groom dogs to look their best for a show but would be just as shocked if any other beauty pageant the contestants showed up in their working garb? People clip their hunting setters before going to the field but it is just terrible that they show them with a coat that takes months of care to produce and then groom it to look good. We show goats clipped, horses clipped, dairy cows clipped, beef cattle ruffled up after months of being wet and fans run on them, sheep blocked, pigs washed and oiled, and on and on but for God's sake don't show a sporting dog even groomed.

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Re: CJ

Post by fishvik » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:09 am

Ezzy, I think it is that the type of grooming is so contrary to the function of the original purpose of the breed. If they were clipped to a coat that was functional to purpose that would be fine. A field clip. Maybe a different class for actually working bird dogs with appropriate grooming and where field scars wouldn't count against them. Retrievers would be judged wet and instead of run around the arena they would have to swim.

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Re: CJ

Post by SCT » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:33 pm

fishvik wrote:Ezzy, I think it is that the type of grooming is so contrary to the function of the original purpose of the breed. If they were clipped to a coat that was functional to purpose that would be fine. A field clip. Maybe a different class for actually working bird dogs with appropriate grooming and where field scars wouldn't count against them. Retrievers would be judged wet and instead of run around the arena they would have to swim.
Yes, and the pointers would have to run a one hour course to test their conformation;-)

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Re: CJ

Post by cjhills » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:11 pm

They are clipped for the function they are performing. Which is the show ring.
I can see why people have a problem with the split. But I do not see how the dog is groom being part of the problem...........Cj

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Re: CJ

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:05 pm

All dogs in the show ring are trimmed to a certain extint including the Shorthaired breeds just not as noticeable on them. :)

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Re: CJ

Post by greg jacobs » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:33 pm

Good to have you back Ted.

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Re: CJ

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:38 pm

Thanks Greg but I'm sure other don't feel that way & I won't post very often if any.

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Re: CJ

Post by cjhills » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:57 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Thanks Greg but I'm sure other don't feel that way & I won't post very often if any.

you are probably right.
Not many people with dog knowledge left and not much useful information.
Did learn a lesson from Ezzy on my deleted post.
Dog life matters.........CJ

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Re: CJ

Post by polmaise » Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:41 pm

cj.
I have always liked your contribution not only here but elswhere.
Having done Show (Retrievers only) ,and in the field with most other breeds. I can 'Akin' to your post.
I would say 'personally' ..You or anyone can only change something if you are in it .
It may or may not be relevant , but if You don't know the 'History' of this wee guy, ''and it's owner'' ...I'll pm You with the 'rap'. It shouldn't matter to the others on the forum or in life ..'Take the least known breed in your shooting field and train it to be a Gun dog' , then Take it back to that ' Westminster Field who don't ' ;) ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNar3t2EoVI

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Re: CJ

Post by cjhills » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:50 pm

polmaise wrote:cj.
I have always liked your contribution not only here but elswhere.
Having done Show (Retrievers only) ,and in the field with most other breeds. I can 'Akin' to your post.
I would say 'personally' ..You or anyone can only change something if you are in it .
It may or may not be relevant , but if You don't know the 'History' of this wee guy, ''and it's owner'' ...I'll pm You with the 'rap'. It shouldn't matter to the others on the forum or in life ..'Take the least known breed in your shooting field and train it to be a Gun dog' , then Take it back to that ' Westminster Field who don't ' ;) ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNar3t2EoVI
Actually some in the Westminster Field do. Not the least Known breed ( I don't know What that would be) but we have Trained several MH GSP And WH s. who competed in Westminster. never place real high. But A MH female went winners bitch in eukanuba
.................................... Cj

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Re: CJ

Post by polmaise » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:42 pm

cjhills wrote: Actually some in the Westminster Field do.
Some times it's even harder to give you a compliment.................................... :)

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Re: CJ

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:51 pm

cjhills wrote:
polmaise wrote:cj.
I have always liked your contribution not only here but elswhere.
Having done Show (Retrievers only) ,and in the field with most other breeds. I can 'Akin' to your post.
I would say 'personally' ..You or anyone can only change something if you are in it .
It may or may not be relevant , but if You don't know the 'History' of this wee guy, ''and it's owner'' ...I'll pm You with the 'rap'. It shouldn't matter to the others on the forum or in life ..'Take the least known breed in your shooting field and train it to be a Gun dog' , then Take it back to that ' Westminster Field who don't ' ;) ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNar3t2EoVI
Actually some in the Westminster Field do. Not the least Known breed ( I don't know What that would be) but we have Trained several MH GSP And WH s. who competed in Westminster. never place real high. But A MH female went winners bitch in eukanuba
.................................... Cj
Only AKC Champions are eligible to go to Westminster. It is a very select field of the top show dogs in the world for those who may not know.
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Re: CJ

Post by cjhills » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:26 pm

Thanks.......Cj

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Re: CJ

Post by polmaise » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:15 pm

ezzy333 wrote: Only AKC Champions are eligible to go to Westminster. It is a very select field of the top show dogs in the world for those who may not know.
Every day is a learning Day!
Just like 'Crufts' Then?..
Fortunately,we also have the 'Gamekeepers ring' which allows the Top 'working and show dogs' ..select being You have to qualify.

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Re: CJ

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:54 pm

And we have numerous trials that the dogs have to qualify to enter. Neither national trials or shows are just there for people to enter without credentials showing they deserve to be entered. We have had hunt test titled Shorthairs and Brittany in the show that I know of and maybe some other breeds but I am not sure.

The Brits have had dogs win both their National Show and Trial titles but those dogs were not taken to Westminster.
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Re: CJ

Post by Steve007 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:48 pm

ezzy333 wrote:[Only AKC Champions are eligible to go to Westminster. It is a very select field of the top show dogs in the world for those who may not know.

If anyone (who is open-minded) has the opportunity to go, it is unforgettable. It is the the Super Bowl of dog shows, and began in 1877, which makes it the oldest national sporting event in the nation (other than Ky. Derby, I think.) I've been there five times. If you live in the Northeast (or if you're a dog or dog show fan), it's sure worthwhile to attend. Memorable, and not just for the Group and BIS judging. It is a a BENCHED show, which mean all the dogs will be at a row of individual booths (arranged by breed) for two days. And the owners will be with them. 2700+ dogs.

You can see (relatively) large numbers of the rarest breeds in the world for days with owners pleased to talk about them.

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Re: CJ

Post by cjhills » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:02 pm

Steve007 wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:[Only AKC Champions are eligible to go to Westminster. It is a very select field of the top show dogs in the world for those who may not know.

If anyone (who is open-minded) has the opportunity to go, it is unforgettable. It is the the Super Bowl of dog shows, and began in 1877, which makes it the oldest national sporting event in the nation (other than Ky. Derby, I think.) I've been there five times. If you live in the Northeast (or if you're a dog or dog show fan), it's sure worthwhile to attend. Memorable, and not just for the Group and BIS judging. It is a a BENCHED show, which mean all the dogs will be at a row of individual booths (arranged by breed) for two days. And the owners will be with them. 2700+ dogs.

You can see (relatively) large numbers of the rarest breeds in the world for days with owners pleased to talk about them.
It is a impressive show,if like Steve007 says you approach it with an open mind.
It is not terribly hard to get a field dog qualified and entered, but it is very hard
( probably impossible) to compete..............Cj

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Re: CJ

Post by polmaise » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:47 pm

ezzy333 wrote: The Brits have had dogs win both their National Show and Trial titles but those dogs were not taken to Westminster.
Why Not ?

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Re: CJ

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:06 pm

cjhills wrote: It is not terribly hard to get a field dog qualified and entered, but it is very hard
( probably impossible) to compete..............Cj
Can you fill us in how you get them qualified and entered? I know how hard it is to finish a dog on the bench as there are many requirements to even finish the dogs that take time and money.

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Re: CJ

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:14 pm

Robert, there are very few field people who think the shows are not important and even detrimental to sporting dogs. You get a sample here when there are concerns about the length of the coat on long haired dogs even though we trim them before they are taken to the field. In other words both field and show trim the dogs but because it is trimmed to different length it is seen zs a problem.

I agree there are breeds that have been bred with way too much hair but I can handle it if necessary, but I wish it wasn't necessary.

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Re: CJ

Post by cjhills » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:24 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
cjhills wrote: It is not terribly hard to get a field dog qualified and entered, but it is very hard
( probably impossible) to compete..............Cj
Can you fill us in how you get them qualified and entered? I know how hard it is to finish a dog on the bench as there are many requirements to even finish the dogs that take time and money.

Ezzy
It is not really all that difficult to get a AKC Champion. It is more about the Handler than the dog. I tried on my own. One judge told me I had the best GSP at the show but the only way I would win is to get a Pro handler. It worked. I don't think it took anything but a AKC Champion, a entry fee and a trip to New York. Not sure because we just paid the bills. It was not terribly expensive. But, trying to win is way out of my world. But you sure need a professional Handler they can make dogs do thinks I can't even believe.......Cj

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Re: CJ

Post by Steve007 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:56 pm

cjhills wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:[
It is not really all that difficult to get a AKC Champion. It is more about the Handler than the dog. I tried on my own. One judge told me I had the best GSP at the show but the only way I would win is to get a Pro handler. It worked. I don't think it took anything but a AKC Champion, a entry fee and a trip to New York. Not sure because we just paid the bills. It was not terribly expensive. But, trying to win is way out of my world. But you sure need a professional Handler they can make dogs do thinks I can't even believe......
Depends on the breed, the handling skill of the owner and obviously on the quality of the dog. I've finished dogs owner-handled and bred others whose owners did so (and then some) as well.

Handling dogs in conformation is a skill and, as in all fields, professionals are generally better than amateurs. And obviously, they GET to more shows. But putting a championship on your own dog, depending on quality, is eminently possible if you're dedicated.

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Re: CJ

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:45 pm

I have handled all of my dogs that I have shown as well as trialed. That is 90% of the fun. I have read where it takes approx2 years for the average dog to finish on the bench. I know several that took longer and some that never did. They say, and I agree, the most expensive dog is the one that always finishes 2nd and 3rd. Some years ago I was with Mr. Gerhing when he finished a young male in one 3 day Labor Day weekend with 3 5 point majors. That is the way to get it done. My best experience was the first two times I took a dog in the ring we received two 3 point majors. So nice to get the major wins out of the way early.
Anyway it is a fun experience but often gets long and expensive. I found several people who wanted their dogs shown but didn't have the time so I usually travels with 4 or 5 dogs and that helped pay the expenses. I did send one of my females to Westminster when some friends were going knowing full well she couldn't compete as she was a couple of years past her prime but at least I can say I had one there.

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Re: CJ

Post by cjhills » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:55 pm

do not know for sure, but I bet dang, if any, few breeder or owner handlers have got BOS at Westminster.............................Cj

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Re: CJ

Post by Steve007 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:22 pm

cjhills wrote:do not know for sure, but I bet dang, if any, few breeder or owner handlers have got BOS at Westminster.............................Cj
BOS?? Best of Opposite Sex? Here's a link to owner handled WKC BIS dogs. Seven of them. http://caninechronicle.com/dog-show-his ... stminster/

Pat Trotter is a breeder/owner/handler of Norwegian Elkhound fame who has won 11 Groups there. Including this year. A duffer can't handle a dog at that level, but there are certainly dedicated owners who do as well as pros. Some of them. But not me.

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Re: CJ

Post by greg jacobs » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:59 pm

Pat may not meet some people's definition of pro. In my mind she is definitely a pro.

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Re: CJ

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:54 am

greg jacobs wrote:Pat may not meet some people's definition of pro. In my mind she is definitely a pro.
Pro relates to professional and to b a professional you have to charge people for your services, other wise you are an amateur. Those definitions have nothing to do with ability or experience. I really think everyone is over thinking this as showing a dog in the ring is nothing more than presenting the dog to the judge in a manner that allows the judge to see the very best qualities of the dog and like most things the real work is done at home before you ever get in the ring. Many of those dogs that have already finished could go in the ring off leash and perform just like the dogs do in the field. The handlers job is minimal with a well trained dog when it performs in the event.

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Re: CJ

Post by cjhills » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:08 am

Steve007 wrote:
cjhills wrote:do not know for sure, but I bet dang, if any, few breeder or owner handlers have got BOS at Westminster.............................Cj
BOS?? Best of Opposite Sex? Here's a link to owner handled WKC BIS dogs. Seven of them. http://caninechronicle.com/dog-show-his ... stminster/

Pat Trotter is a breeder/owner/handler of Norwegian Elkhound fame who has won 11 Groups there. Including this year. A duffer can't handle a dog at that level, but there are certainly dedicated owners who do as well as pros. Some of them. But not me.
Yes, BIS. Sorry, About that.
It looks like 7 wins in over a hundred years. By people who could easily be professionals if they chose to do so. Not a lot, but I was thinking more of field dogs.
As far as the dog shows go the handler has every thing to do with it. We have a handler who meets us at the show takes the dog in to the ring and is at or near the top every time. If we tried to do it ourselves we would be at or near the bottom.
The good pros can make the dog look totally different. Just as I can make the dog do things in the that the owner can't. It is all about attitude
The people I know, who are serious about big shows, would not even consider showing the dog themselves. They do a small shows sometimes to get exposure and their CH. These are GSP and GW people who show, hunt and run hunt tests......CJ

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Re: CJ

Post by greg jacobs » Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:01 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
greg jacobs wrote:Pat may not meet some people's definition of pro. In my mind she is definitely a pro.
Pro relates to professional and to b a professional you have to charge people for your services, other wise you are an amateur. Those definitions have nothing to do with ability or experience. I really think everyone is over thinking this as showing a dog in the ring is nothing more than presenting the dog to the judge in a manner that allows the judge to see the very best qualities of the dog and like most things the real work is done at home before you ever get in the ring. Many of those dogs that have already finished could go in the ring off leash and perform just like the dogs do in the field. The handlers job is minimal with a well trained dog when it performs in the event.

Ezzy
I understand that. Been involved in it. Been in the show ring myself. My daughter has also, and worked for a handler. We had Elkhounds and Shorthairs. Have met Pat through mutual friends, although it was before she was a Trotter.

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Re: CJ

Post by greg jacobs » Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:22 pm

I've seen CJ here in the NW. And I know some people that have a closely related female. She finished her show title and now they are going to work towards her field title. My bet is that you could kill birds over CJ. There are quite a few dual gsp's. I think the show lines still have a fair amount of instinct.

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Re: CJ

Post by greg jacobs » Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:03 pm

Carlee was CJ'S grandmother. I believe she also went BIS. Pretty strong show line.

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Re: CJ

Post by fuzznut » Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:23 am

A 15 yr old owner handler won BOB with the GWP this year, and then made the cut in the Sporting group with her. We were very proud of her and her dog. She did all the showing on this pup from the time she got her.
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