I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

User avatar
JonBailey
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:12 pm
Location: Boise, ID

I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by JonBailey » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:22 pm

I favor any pro-dog legislation that lifts any bans on unleashed dogs for all game everywhere in America. I favor dogs for wildlife conservation. I favor dogs that can get the gunner in to close range so wounding game is much less common. Dogs prevent lost game or wounded game.

Any game warden who shoots a dog that is merely chasing deer is a monster. Game laws against dogs are purely idiotic.

A barrel or two over a dog or a pack of hounds is a warm and fuzzy feeling.

Dogs provide security to hunters in the field. Dogs provide companionship out in nature. Call me old-fashioned.

Many a Johnny Reb in the American South share my fuzzy emotions about the pooch with a gun over him.

Does anybody here share my sentiments?


Here is a good dog-hunting article:

The Dog-Hunting Debate - North American Whitetail
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

User avatar
JonBailey
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:12 pm
Location: Boise, ID

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by JonBailey » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:59 am

The landed gentry have been fighting dogs, guns and hunters since Day One.
Nowadays, they have formed an alliance with Bambi-huggers and Dem Libs.

When the fun is banned in hunting, hunters give it up often and revenue is lost
in the outdoor sports industry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59WgOKobmtQ
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2528
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by cjhills » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:00 am

Jon:
How did your bird hunting project go?
Just so you are aware dogs don't " merely chase deer", Dogs kill deer. Anyone who lets their dogs run at will should be liable for the damage they do. It is legal for anyone who sees dogs running deer to shoot them in the winter months in Minnesota. It is also not legal to run bear with hounds in Minnesota and has been for many years.....Cj

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3842
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by slistoe » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:24 am

cjhills wrote:Jon:
How did your bird hunting project go?
Just so you are aware dogs don't " merely chase deer", Dogs kill deer. Anyone who lets their dogs run at will should be liable for the damage they do. It is legal for anyone who sees dogs running deer to shoot them in the winter months in Minnesota. It is also not legal to run bear with hounds in Minnesota and has been for many years.....Cj
Letting your dog run at will is not the same thing as using the dog to hunt deer. You should know that and are throwing about the same tactic that the antis use. It is that type of stuff that has got hunting bear and cougars with dog banned in many areas. Hunting with dogs is an ancient and traditional form of hunting and IMO any hunter that buys into the hysteria should be ashamed of themselves, especially ones who engage dogs to hunt game themselves.

Pedro
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:11 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by Pedro » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:43 am

Well....it was nice while it lasted.

JONOV
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 408
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:26 am
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by JONOV » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:51 am

cjhills wrote:Jon:
How did your bird hunting project go?
Just so you are aware dogs don't " merely chase deer", Dogs kill deer. Anyone who lets their dogs run at will should be liable for the damage they do. It is legal for anyone who sees dogs running deer to shoot them in the winter months in Minnesota. It is also not legal to run bear with hounds in Minnesota and has been for many years.....Cj
It is legal to do so in Minnesota. There are a lot of things that are legal but that doesn't make it right, or a good idea. Anyone that does, frankly I don't feel bad if they get drug before the court of Public Opinion, and the ensuing circus that the loonies will put on them. And I'm not talking about the packs of ferals that are running around near Reservations, that's different.

As a deer hunter, it frankly sickens me the insane value that people put on "Deer Hunting the Way I Think You Should Do It." Getting bent out of shape because your neighbor shot a 6 Point deer you let walk, naming your deer, having a "hit list," the weird eroticism for big Antlers and the way some hunters treat some male deer like sacred, fatted calfs waiting til the ritual slaughter at the Altar of the Instagram Hashtag all make me abhor a lot of the Deer Hunting culture out there. Its a sign of a problem with how you view the resource, a sign you've taken it too far in the opposite direction of spotlighting or other poaching methods.

Personally, I enjoy a good race and seeing a pack of Walkers running a deer. It's not my personal choice for deer hunting, and there are rude hound clubs out there, but that needs to be considered separately from the practice itself. When I dealt with a rude adjoining club I loaded their dogs, (they all have collars,) and took them to the pound two counties over. A $20 fee and two hour trip changes their tune and attitude a lot better than bullets, and only after I asked nicely and got the BS Answer "Dogs will run where they run" (True, don't drop them at the line of my lease though and drive to the other side of it.)

Guys that flip their lid because they saw a couple hounds come through their afternoon sit need their med's adjusted.

That said, CJ, the Antihunters are coming for our dogs first. Listen to the Hunting Dog Podcast where he interviews the head of the Michigan Hunting Dog Coalition.

User avatar
JonBailey
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:12 pm
Location: Boise, ID

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by JonBailey » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:21 am

JONOV wrote:
cjhills wrote:Jon:
How did your bird hunting project go?
Just so you are aware dogs don't " merely chase deer", Dogs kill deer. Anyone who lets their dogs run at will should be liable for the damage they do. It is legal for anyone who sees dogs running deer to shoot them in the winter months in Minnesota. It is also not legal to run bear with hounds in Minnesota and has been for many years.....Cj
It is legal to do so in Minnesota. There are a lot of things that are legal but that doesn't make it right, or a good idea. Anyone that does, frankly I don't feel bad if they get drug before the court of Public Opinion, and the ensuing circus that the loonies will put on them. And I'm not talking about the packs of ferals that are running around near Reservations, that's different.

As a deer hunter, it frankly sickens me the insane value that people put on "Deer Hunting the Way I Think You Should Do It." Getting bent out of shape because your neighbor shot a 6 Point deer you let walk, naming your deer, having a "hit list," the weird eroticism for big Antlers and the way some hunters treat some male deer like sacred, fatted calfs waiting til the ritual slaughter at the Altar of the Instagram Hashtag all make me abhor a lot of the Deer Hunting culture out there. Its a sign of a problem with how you view the resource, a sign you've taken it too far in the opposite direction of spotlighting or other poaching methods.

Personally, I enjoy a good race and seeing a pack of Walkers running a deer. It's not my personal choice for deer hunting, and there are rude hound clubs out there, but that needs to be considered separately from the practice itself. When I dealt with a rude adjoining club I loaded their dogs, (they all have collars,) and took them to the pound two counties over. A $20 fee and two hour trip changes their tune and attitude a lot better than bullets, and only after I asked nicely and got the BS Answer "Dogs will run where they run" (True, don't drop them at the line of my lease though and drive to the other side of it.)

Guys that flip their lid because they saw a couple hounds come through their afternoon sit need their med's adjusted.

That said, CJ, the Antihunters are coming for our dogs first. Listen to the Hunting Dog Podcast where he interviews the head of the Michigan Hunting Dog Coalition.

Yes, I found this interview with Mike Thurman hosted by Ron Boehme of Michigan:

https://thehuntingdogpodcast.com/episod ... ederation/
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2528
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by cjhills » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:46 pm

Jonov:
I never said anything about hunting deer with dogs. I never considered the statement, "merely chasing deer" to mean hunting deer with dogs. I understand hunting deer with dogs is common in the south. I have no problem with that. It is not the case in the north. I don't think any northern states allow it. In my 80 years I don't think it was ever legal here. The problem is in the area where I live, dogs easily catch deer in the winter when the snow gets deep and has a little crust so the dogs run on top. The easiest targets are does carrying fawns. I have seen them rip open the does to get the fawns when she is still alive.
These are not packs of feral dogs, they are pets and hunting dogs that are allowed to range free. I have hunted almost every legal animal there is with hounds.I have never had a hound shot while hunting. I am sure there are people who would shoot the dogs given the opportunity. I have shot dogs I caught killing deer in the snow. I have assisted the conservation officers in tracking and killing dogs that were known deer killers. I did not have a problem with that either.
I personally find your post very offensive because it sounds like you are accusing me, personally, of a lot of things you know nothing about. Perhaps I am reading it wrong. I hope so.
Accusing me of giving ammunition to the antis is insulting and just plain crazy and I will not even address that.
Thank you......Cj

One other thing. In the court of public opinion I would win every time for shooting a deer chasing dog in the winter when an hour chase can take so much out of a deer that lives on brush and snowballs, that it can't survive a sub zero night.

Mountaineer
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1630
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:23 pm
Location: State?...The one where ruffed grouse were.

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:21 pm

JonBailey wrote:I favor any pro-dog legislation that lifts any bans on unleashed dogs for all game everywhere in America....Does anybody here share my sentiments?...
I do not share your sentiments since "any" and "all", when included in either legislation or barbershop talk, conveniently ignores a changing world afield...in activities of people and in the sheer volume of people out and about...and more.

Running any game with dogs or pointing/flushing with dogs has a long history and a respected one from several angles....however, each "game" has particulars that may not work...today and in certain areas.
The bounding chase over comparably large distances....can be problematic...in certain areas....some, not so much, others, more.
What we as dog owners do not need is a failure to employ commonsense and a wider view than self in favor of the anti-PC of.....any and all.

As to wardens killing dogs....the individual particulars matter...the implication made here is one simply meant to incite....where have we seen that same before?

As to deer hunters killing dogs, such as the guy in eastern Ohio a few years ago, well, he was successfully and justly prosecuted for his actions.
Hopefully and I believe they do, deer hunters, in general, understand that there is a profound difference twixt free-roaming farm dogs and lost or straying birddogs, for example. I believe that the no do-overs from a misjudgment on their part is not ignored....if a pup trots by a stand.
"Chasing" deer has many definitions and can involve time intervals of seconds to hours...again, commonsense, please.
Coyote poisoning may be another deal entire.
That no do-over reality should give anyone pause re sticking an arrow in a dog......by hunter or dog owner....responsibility sits on both sides of the fence...as responsibility often does.

As to the legality of killing any dog that simply puts a foot wrong.....that varies state to state and is often dependent upon damage, deer yarding, upon bothering livestock and so on.

Steve007
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 880
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by Steve007 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:58 pm

Criminetly! (Did I spell that right?) I thought ol' Jon was gone. It's a good thing we don't allow political posts here. Goodness knows what he'd come up with.

User avatar
JonBailey
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:12 pm
Location: Boise, ID

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by JonBailey » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:34 pm

Steve007 wrote:Criminetly! (Did I spell that right?) I thought ol' Jon was gone. It's a good thing we don't allow political posts here. Goodness knows what he'd come up with.

What I am afraid of is that "they" will someday come after your retrievers, spaniels, pointers and setters once they have prohibited all use of hounds for all fur-bearing and hoofed game
everywhere.

Do you think your duck-hunting retriever or quail-hunting spaniel is entirely immune to ever being banned from feathered-game hunting?

Politics can't be ignored in the sportsman world. Elected officials ultimately make decisions about what you can or can't do when going after critters with guns and dogs.

My concern is that those in legislatures don't hear the sportsman's collective voice loud enough. You bird-doggers all sit back and rest on your laurels that

your sport and your pooches are forever safe from the Mighty Pen of Congress.

Jon is not your enemy. The fight is in the Halls of State Legislatures and on Capitol Hill.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

Mountaineer
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1630
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:23 pm
Location: State?...The one where ruffed grouse were.

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:15 pm

For the threats and challenges facing bird hunting, in the present, near and long-term...the legislated removal/prohibition of gundogs is waaay down the scale of importance...if the scale is at all of a practical nature.

Once again, the shallow pool from which you are dipping jon(?), serves neither the birds, the dogs nor the hunters well.

It is quite true that there is a strong political component to many issues afield but approaching and dealing with those subjects takes a clear view, accuracy and honesty rather than agenda, fomented angst and an artful stirring of a pot.
Ignorance and following a false trail is the enemy of success and problem solving.

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by polmaise » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:28 pm

It is a Pity there is Not a POTUS section on the board .
It would clear up the General Chat .

Steve007
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 880
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by Steve007 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:48 pm

JonBailey wrote: or your quail-hunting spaniel
Spaniels are admirable dogs, but are not the best choice for quail, unless someone is a better shot than I ..and I'm pretty decent. imo. No disrespect to spaniels intended.

User avatar
JonBailey
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:12 pm
Location: Boise, ID

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by JonBailey » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:55 pm

Steve007 wrote:
JonBailey wrote: or your quail-hunting spaniel
Spaniels are admirable dogs, but are not the best choice for quail, unless someone is a better shot than I ..and I'm pretty decent. imo. No disrespect to spaniels intended.

I just used spaniels to cite a mere example. I honestly don't know what is the best dog breed for a given bird species.

Clearing up this forum with an official to censor talk here? How American and democratic!

Let me ask people here, how come California lawmakers banned hounds for bear in that state some five years ago? Hounding bears is a centuries-old tradition as is using gun dogs for birds.

Why is it OK to go after dogs by legislation for some game species but leave dogs for other species alone? It's not fair to the non-feathered game hunters or to the dogs which miss out on the action!


But meanwhile I am CONSTANTLY hounding my state legislators to REMOVE prohibitions on dogs for hoofed game citing that it would be
smart in the name of wildlife conservation to do so. Hounds permit hunters to be much closer to the game for a good shot for a
decisive kill and greatly reduce wounded or lost game animals. Allowing dogs for deer would also promote much more interest in deer hunting
given the strong bond between man and dog and hence generate greater revenue for the state.

Hoofed game includes all deer species, elk, wild sheep, moose, pigs and pronghorn.

I wish Idaho had a hunting hound coalition as does Michigan.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

User avatar
JonBailey
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:12 pm
Location: Boise, ID

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by JonBailey » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:46 pm

Dear (your state) State Lawmaker:


Current (your state if applicable) game regs prohibit the use of dogs for all hoofed game species as to the best of my knowledge.


I support the REMOVAL of prohibitions against dogs for hoofed game because it is wise in the name of wildlife conservation to do so. Hounds permit hunters to be much closer to the game for a good shot for a decisive kill and greatly reduce wounded or lost game animals. Allowing dogs for deer would also promote much more interest in deer hunting given the strong bond between man and dog and hence generate greater revenue for the state. Dogs are a highly efficient method to control game populations. This has been proven by the lawful use of deer-hunting dogs in the Southern states for several centuries now. Man has been hunting with dogs for some 15,000 years. Furthermore, dogs provide hunters personal security in the field against possible criminal attacks and attacks from wild predators.

Hoofed game includes all deer species, elk, wild sheep, moose, pigs and pronghorn.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

porochi
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:55 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by porochi » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:48 am

I would never shoot a dog for running and killing deer. It's not as if deer are an endangered species. That's a horrible thing to do. Shooting a dog for acting like, well, a dog. I've hunted deer in the south that are run by dogs. It's not uncommon. But even where disallowed that's hardly an excuse for murdering a dog that doesn't obey the law. That said I will definitely not bird hunt over my dogs during deer gun season lest they run into people like some who post on here that admit to killing a dog simply because it killed a deer. There"s more deer now than ever, a handful lost to dogs is no loss at all but killing a dog for that? My God. Never.

JONOV
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 408
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:26 am
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by JONOV » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:08 am

Mountaineer wrote:For the threats and challenges facing bird hunting, in the present, near and long-term...the legislated removal/prohibition of gundogs is waaay down the scale of importance...if the scale is at all of a practical nature.

Once again, the shallow pool from which you are dipping jon(?), serves neither the birds, the dogs nor the hunters well.

It is quite true that there is a strong political component to many issues afield but approaching and dealing with those subjects takes a clear view, accuracy and honesty rather than agenda, fomented angst and an artful stirring of a pot.
Ignorance and following a false trail is the enemy of success and problem solving.
Broken Clocks are correct twice a day. The OP might be "out there" or just a troll, but that doesn't make him wrong.

The Antihunters are a creative and insidious lot. Gun Control is a non-starter as a tool for anti-hunters. Way to steep of a hill to climb and even if they limit every gun sold to a background checked, three-shot limited gun, you haven't eliminated most guns that hunters use.

But its actually a LOT easier to get widespread support for things that impinge on our dog use than you realize.

Chapel Hill, North Carolina has a law that you can't have your dog on a tether. Full Stop. So, if Ray G pulled over in Chapel Hill on his way to the Tarheel Open All Age Field Trial, and let his three pointers out on a gang tie behind the Chapel Hill Wal Mart, he could be cited. People don't think about that; they think about some Turd that has his Pit Bull on a chain 24 hours a day. Or, a law that says, "It is illegal to leave a dog unattended in a vehicle." So you can't let your dog sleep in its crate in the bed of your truck at a hunting trip/trial.

Clark County, Nevada has a law that says your dog has to be sterilized unless you get a breeder/show license. So the Hotel Manager at the Bellagio is now required to get his Chukar Hunting Pointer neutered or get a license and attend a show once a year.


Or, they get their hands on video of a hound or DD dispatching a raccoon and put it on a ballot measure to disallow something like dogs to pursue live game. You think, "No biggy, My dog is a Setter. He points, I shoot, he retrieves." Except, you shoot, cripple, and in violation of the law, allow the dog to pursue crippled game.
porochi wrote: I would never shoot a dog for running and killing deer. It's not as if deer are an endangered species. That's a horrible thing to do. Shooting a dog for acting like, well, a dog. I've hunted deer in the south that are run by dogs. It's not uncommon. But even where disallowed that's hardly an excuse for murdering a dog that doesn't obey the law. That said I will definitely not bird hunt over my dogs during deer gun season lest they run into people like some who post on here that admit to killing a dog simply because it killed a deer. There"s more deer now than ever, a handful lost to dogs is no loss at all but killing a dog for that? My God. Never.
Thanks. That's how i feel. Maybe if someone is totally irresponsible with their dogs constantly out killing deer in deep snow, that's one thing. But shooting the neighbors dog as he runs Bambi past your tree stand? You've got problems.

Mountaineer
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1630
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:23 pm
Location: State?...The one where ruffed grouse were.

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:39 am

We all have our thoughts....the "waaay down the list" placement, which I noted and for me, may indeed not apply within the city limits of Chapel Hill, NC.
There will always be examples, especially in cities and in some states, of agenda and misinformation on a variety of subjects driving action.....that does not mean those examples should dictate fear, distraction and effort to address.
Simply put, greater issues exist afield...it is a shame to spend coin on the little and least likely ones. :idea:

The OP's example of increasing deer hunting thru dogs fits well his little experience and low knowledge base.
If, he would choose to learn rather than to surf the Net and poorly apply terrible math then, expressing concern re dogs or whatever can be a very good thing.

As it is, non-sensical letters to legislators will appear the same as non-sensical posts on this message board.
Neither is the way to step forward...neither will help habitat, game and non-game species, dogs or humans.

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by polmaise » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:44 pm

[quote="porochi" I would never shoot a dog for running and killing deer. It's not as if deer are an endangered species. That's a horrible thing to do. Shooting a dog for acting like, well, a dog. I've hunted deer in the south that are run by dogs. It's not uncommon. But even where disallowed that's hardly an excuse for murdering a dog that doesn't obey the law. That said I will definitely not bird hunt over my dogs during deer gun season lest they run into people like some who post on here that admit to killing a dog simply because it killed a deer. There"s more deer now than ever, a handful lost to dogs is no loss at all but killing a dog for that? My God. Never.[/quote]
Yes , everything in context .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtB1HQt6ak8

User avatar
JonBailey
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:12 pm
Location: Boise, ID

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by JonBailey » Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:28 pm

Mountaineer wrote:We all have our thoughts....the "waaay down the list" placement, which I noted and for me, may indeed not apply within the city limits of Chapel Hill, NC.
There will always be examples, especially in cities and in some states, of agenda and misinformation on a variety of subjects driving action.....that does not mean those examples should dictate fear, distraction and effort to address.
Simply put, greater issues exist afield...it is a shame to spend coin on the little and least likely ones. :idea:

The OP's example of increasing deer hunting thru dogs fits well his little experience and low knowledge base.
If, he would choose to learn rather than to surf the Net and poorly apply terrible math then, expressing concern re dogs or whatever can be a very good thing.

As it is, non-sensical letters to legislators will appear the same as non-sensical posts on this message board.
Neither is the way to step forward...neither will help habitat, game and non-game species, dogs or humans.
So, you say no dogs for deer in a state like Idaho. Please justify YOUR logic.

I'm not stupid. I can read game regs myself.


Here in my home state of Idaho, a blood-trailing hound is still permitted (though not mandatory) for finding wounded big game provided the animal is on a leash which likely means the hunter with a gun in hand will need at least one partner to manage the dog on the hunt. I can't see myself as a solo deer hunter with both hands on my rifle to have positive control over my gun while my hound is tethered to my belt. That sets up a possible tripping and fall hazard. Humans, after all, only have two hands. How many cartoons have you ever seen with a lone hunter's having his dog on a leash while in the field?

The only way I can see a leashed blood-tracking hound work for a solo deer hunter is at a stand.

I would still be much happier if the at least the LEASH requirement were lifted for blood-trailing hounds for big-game hunters in the field even if the dog were still not actually be allowed to hunt a non-wounded deer before the first shot was fired. Personally, I think having a blood-trailing dog in possession should be mandatory for all big game hunters in the field as this is the most effective tool for recovering any wounded game animals to prevent unnecessary animal suffering and ecological waste of natural resources. Better even yet, actually allowing dogs to hunt deer in the first place would greatly reduce the risk of wounding the game in the first place as hounds can get the hunter in very close range for a highly-likely clean and ethical kill. Idaho still allows dogs off leash for hunting cougar and bear, why not for deer also?
Last edited by JonBailey on Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

Mountaineer
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1630
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:23 pm
Location: State?...The one where ruffed grouse were.

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:02 pm

JonBailey wrote:So, you say no dogs for deer in a state like Idaho. Please justify YOUR logic.

I'm not stupid. I can read game regs myself.

Here in my home state of Idaho, a blood-trailing hound is still permitted (though not mandatory) for finding wounded big game provided the animal is on a leash which likely means the hunter with a gun in hand will need at least one partner to manage the dog on the hunt. I can't see myself as a solo deer hunter with both hands on my rifle to have positive control over my gun while my hound is tethered to my belt. That sets up a possible tripping and fall hazard. Humans, after all, only have two hands. How many cartoons have you ever seen with a lone hunter's having his dog on a leash while in the field?
Many states permit leashed dogs for deer recovery...many folks offer that fine service to hunters.....and, people trip picking up the paper.

I can't see you as a solo hunter either.

I no longer search out cartoons, I'm not stupid.

The reality is that "reading game regs" is of little value w/o the ability to understand the activity at hand and the reasoning behind the regs......the world does not revolve around a single aspect of any equation.

Please channel your implied concern in a direction that helps rather than hinders....thanks.

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by polmaise » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:28 pm

Trojan Horse .
I liked Troy .

User avatar
JonBailey
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:12 pm
Location: Boise, ID

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by JonBailey » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:31 pm

I would still be much happier if the at least the LEASH requirement were lifted for blood-trailing hounds for big-game hunters in the field even if the dog were still not actually be allowed to hunt a non-wounded deer before the first shot was fired. Personally, I think having a blood-trailing dog in possession should be mandatory for all big game hunters in the field as this is the most effective tool for recovering any wounded game animals to prevent unnecessary animal suffering and ecological waste of natural resources. Better even yet, actually allowing dogs to hunt deer in the first place would greatly reduce the risk of wounding the game in the first place as hounds can get the hunter in very close range for a highly-likely clean and ethical kill. Idaho still allows dogs off leash for hunting cougar and bear, why not for deer also?

The South doesn't merely use freecasted dogs for deer hunting out of long-standing tradition: there is actually conservation sense involved there.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

Mountaineer
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1630
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:23 pm
Location: State?...The one where ruffed grouse were.

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:07 pm

JonBailey wrote:.... Idaho still allows dogs off leash for hunting cougar and bear, why not for deer also?

The South doesn't merely use freecasted dogs for deer hunting out of long-standing tradition: there is actually conservation sense involved there.
Maybe it would help if one could teach deer to climb trees?

Your useage of the word "South" re deer hunting with dogs implies a broader swath than is reality.

Conservation?.....well only in the broadest sense. I would say it is indeed tradition and, swamps and tight cover. Shotguns are often be used with Buck......would that buckshot follow with conservation?
Never mind. :|

User avatar
JonBailey
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:12 pm
Location: Boise, ID

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by JonBailey » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:15 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
JonBailey wrote:.... Idaho still allows dogs off leash for hunting cougar and bear, why not for deer also?

The South doesn't merely use freecasted dogs for deer hunting out of long-standing tradition: there is actually conservation sense involved there.
Maybe it would help if one could teach deer to climb trees?

Your useage of the word "South" re deer hunting with dogs implies a broader swath than is reality.

Conservation?.....well only in the broadest sense. I would say it is indeed tradition and, swamps and tight cover. Shotguns are often be used with Buck......would that buckshot follow with conservation?
Never mind. :|

In the South, deer are pushed into hunters' stands with hounds.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

Steve007
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 880
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by Steve007 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:21 pm

JonBailey wrote:
Steve007 wrote:
JonBailey wrote: or your quail-hunting spaniel
Spaniels are admirable dogs, but are not the best choice for quail, unless someone is a better shot than I ..and I'm pretty decent. imo. No disrespect to spaniels intended.

I just used spaniels to cite a mere example. I honestly don't know what is the best dog breed for a given bird species.
Of course you don't. You don't own a hunting dog and likely never will, nor have you hunted over one.

Mountaineer
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1630
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:23 pm
Location: State?...The one where ruffed grouse were.

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:34 pm

JonBailey wrote:In the South, deer are pushed into hunters' stands with hounds.
Well, in a portion of what is termed the South. :)

KCKLH
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:12 pm

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by KCKLH » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:12 pm

I only support hunting with a dog whenever a reasonable level of safety for the animal is possible just like I only support hunting when the game can be killed humanely and for good reason.

Im slowly turning my opinions against using dogs on hogs and hog hunting in general. It is dangerous for the canine and has aided the spread of hog numbers due to commercial scumbags that want to bring it to their state as some sort of legally grey blood sport. Trapping and government ran extermination programs have shown to be more effective in reducing feral populations in Kansas and Missouri. Earlier this year we found a dead bulldog on the side of the road that had bled out after a hog fight. Its owner had clearly stopped to retrieve its cut collar and left the poor thing to rot in the sun. That is an abhorrent way to treat your animal and doesnt do our cause any favors. As a conservationist and a person with a basic respect for dogs I find it unethical and counterproductive to the goal of increasing habitat and population of native and nondestructive introduced game.

In places like Florida where there are gators retrievers shouldnt be used while duck hunting just anywhere. In some places like around Kennedy Space Center or Loxahatchee they are so thick dog use should absolutely be restricted on public land. The high number of out of state hunters that come down here every year with no real understanding of that alone is alarming and justifies it in my opinion. Im sure there are plenty other people on this forum that could point out hazards and issues like this in their locality be it terrain, extreme temperature, strong current, etc.

We are one especially stupid youtuber trying to make a catch/clean/cook video with his dogs and a porcupine away from a wave of knee jerk legislation. I would like to legislate that type of idiocy away before its thrown in our face. We can not meet unscientific collectivist and absolute legislation with unscientific collectivist and absolute legislation. Common sense and sound data always prevail in the end.

mask
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 631
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Idaho

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by mask » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:27 pm

This was a rather insipid thread from the first jump out of the chute. People that don't know what they talking about should ask first before making stupid statements. Every time you turn a dog loose there is a risk, weather it is birds, hogs, deer, or whatever. Sharon, Ezzy where are you?

KCKLH
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:12 pm

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by KCKLH » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:39 pm

No duh there is risk every time barbed wire fences do enough damage to dogs on a regular basis. That does not excuse the way a lot of people treat their dogs and you know exactly what I am talking about. Call it what you want but any man that sends his dog where he is afraid to go is a coward.

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3842
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by slistoe » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:28 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Please channel your implied concern in a direction that helps rather than hinders....thanks.
Folks like yourself are the hindrance.

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3842
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by slistoe » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:31 pm

KCKLH wrote:Common sense and sound data always prevail in the end.
If only it were so.

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 9111
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by Sharon » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:02 pm

mask wrote:This was a rather insipid thread from the first jump out of the chute. People that don't know what they talking about should ask first before making stupid statements. Every time you turn a dog loose there is a risk, weather it is birds, hogs, deer, or whatever. Sharon, Ezzy where are you?
We are here ! :) My suggestion is that if posts by anyone on here , send your blood pressure high, then don't read them. ( This is not directed to Mask but to members in general.) You can block a user under your control panel choices. I don't know why this member has returned , but I am looking into it. So far the only people saying things they shouldn't in this thread, are some other members.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

User avatar
JonBailey
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:12 pm
Location: Boise, ID

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by JonBailey » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:15 pm

I see much hypocrisy here.

This is a hunting dog forum after all but it focuses on feathered game.

Why is the use of dogs for feathered game supposedly so ethical, safe and humane while the use of dogs for
critters with fur or hooves so cruel, unethical and dangerous in the mindset of many on this forum?

Duck hunters routinely nick and zap their retrievers with e-collars.

Except for California, many western states still allow freecasted hounds for treeing cougar and bear.
That seems OK too by most people in the American hunting community.

Only most former Confederate states (except for Texas) now allow freecasted hounds on deer.

Why is most of America so against the use of freecasted hounds on deer that virtually every state outside of the former Confederacy
has it banned on their respective game regs? What is the conspiracy here?

This is the kind of cute canine storybook warmth American deer hunters outside the South are deprived of. This is why there are so many lost and wounded deer outside of the South. Hounds get the game close to the gunners for decisive kills at close range and wounded animals are as scarce as hen's teeth. Dogs make so much sense for conservation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDfAxYJ ... m-comments
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

Mountaineer
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1630
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:23 pm
Location: State?...The one where ruffed grouse were.

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:42 am

slistoe wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
Please channel your implied concern in a direction that helps rather than hinders....thanks.
Folks like yourself are the hindrance.
I think that, at times in in certain places, you are correct.

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3842
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by slistoe » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:59 am

While I fully support that there is no logical case for the banning of dogs on furred game, thinking that the practice would work equally as well in all parts of North America as it does in the deep south is naive and romantic. If you noticed the scale on the monitor in the truck it was set to 500 ft. They had 8-10 guys covering the openings in maybe 50 acres of impenetrable bush. In my area a pushed deer will cover 3-4 miles in a heartbeat - I can't begin to imagine the manpower you would need for there to be any hope of someone being "up close and personal" with that deer as the dogs ran it. Open it up and the hunters will decide where it is practical to employ - personally I see great advantage to after the shot use and game recovery would go way up.

JONOV
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 408
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:26 am
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by JONOV » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:27 am

slistoe wrote:While I fully support that there is no logical case for the banning of dogs on furred game, thinking that the practice would work equally as well in all parts of North America as it does in the deep south is naive and romantic. If you noticed the scale on the monitor in the truck it was set to 500 ft. They had 8-10 guys covering the openings in maybe 50 acres of impenetrable bush. In my area a pushed deer will cover 3-4 miles in a heartbeat - I can't begin to imagine the manpower you would need for there to be any hope of someone being "up close and personal" with that deer as the dogs ran it. Open it up and the hunters will decide where it is practical to employ - personally I see great advantage to after the shot use and game recovery would go way up.
Having grown up in the Midwest, my take on it is that Hounds for Deer in Iowa or Illinois is about as relevant as an Ice Auger in Georgia.

I have a 2.5 month long rifle season here. I can shoot six deer. All Does, if I want, though only two bucks. Hunters won't keep deer hounds for their 10 day shotgun season where they have to draw a doe tag in a lottery in the first place. The Juice isn't worth the squeeze. Deer in NC are small and it doesn't have anything to do with the hounds or the "Brown-its-down" mentality. It has everything to do with it being warm, and the soil being acidic. Northern Counties in NC, especially central and Western NC, produce much better deer than those down by the beach. They also get more snow (colder,) have rockier and more alkaline soil. Its no different than Minnesota where the Southeast part of the state in broken agricultural counties with all sorts of limestone in the soil makes bigger racks than what you'd shoot in the Iron Range.

porochi
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:55 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by porochi » Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:47 pm

Simple. If you hunt right the deer will come to you. No dogs needed to drive them. But pheasants and quail won't come to you. You must find them. Thus a dog comes in handy then.

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3842
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by slistoe » Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:44 pm

porochi wrote:Simple. If you hunt right the deer will come to you. No dogs needed to drive them. But pheasants and quail won't come to you. You must find them. Thus a dog comes in handy then.
The same methods that are used to get the deer to come to you will work with all manner of game birds. I grew up spot and stalk, and ambush hunting game birds because my father and all his kin believed it was unethical to run birds with dogs (unfair advantage) and take the risks of wounding game on the wing (head shots meant quick clean kills) - let alone the meat wastage and danger of chewing/ingesting pellets. Don't fool yourself into believing that dogs on birds is somehow different than dogs on furred game.

porochi
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:55 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by porochi » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:29 pm

I take it you've never hunted a full section of Kansas CRP. Good luck spotting and stalking pheasants and quail there. And you're on the wrong forum if you're advocating upland hunting sans dog. This is the Gun Dog Forum. For me the thought of upland hunting without dogs is heresy. The entire point of it is to enjoy time afield with your best friend.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16625
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:30 pm

JonBailey wrote:
Steve007 wrote:Criminetly! (Did I spell that right?) I thought ol' Jon was gone. It's a good thing we don't allow political posts here. Goodness knows what he'd come up with.

What I am afraid of is that "they" will someday come after your retrievers, spaniels, pointers and setters once they have prohibited all use of hounds for all fur-bearing and hoofed game
everywhere.

Do you think your duck-hunting retriever or quail-hunting spaniel is entirely immune to ever being banned from feathered-game hunting?

Politics can't be ignored in the sportsman world. Elected officials ultimately make decisions about what you can or can't do when going after critters with guns and dogs.

My concern is that those in legislatures don't hear the sportsman's collective voice loud enough. You bird-doggers all sit back and rest on your laurels that

your sport and your pooches are forever safe from the Mighty Pen of Congress.

Jon is not your enemy. Hill.[/The fight is in the Halls of State Legislatures and on Capitol Hill.] quote
It appears to me you are addressing the wrong people if those are really your concerns. I would strongly suggest you send your post to them instead of us that have companying interest to a few of your concerns as a group we will never agree or comply with all you do.

Your method of asking for our opinions is all so interesting. First thing you do is set the rules and the correct answer so anytime we have a differ opinion we are automatically wrong. And for someone with little of any experience in what we are involved with would have such strong opinions on how we should feel. Probably would be best to just send your posts to your representatives and senators and not here.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3842
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by slistoe » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:58 pm

porochi wrote:I take it you've never hunted a full section of Kansas CRP. Good luck spotting and stalking pheasants and quail there. And you're on the wrong forum if you're advocating upland hunting sans dog. This is the Gun Dog Forum. For me the thought of upland hunting without dogs is heresy. The entire point of it is to enjoy time afield with your best friend.
Yeah, everybody's hunting is always way tougher than the other guys.
I hunt birds with dogs by choice - not by necessity. I also don't believe in belittling or demeaning anyone who chooses to hunt birds differently - What I am advocating is hunting. Part of that is the use of dogs for hunting.
Just pointing out for those with myopic vision that hunting birds with dogs is no more special or justifiable than any other use of dogs for hunting. Anyone who thinks they can throw the hog hunters, the deer hunters, the bear hunters etc. under the sacrificial bus to save their soul is sorely mistaken - and a danger to all who enjoy time in the field with their dogs.

mnaj_springer
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1271
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:10 pm
Location: Northern Minnesota

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by mnaj_springer » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:01 pm

Just to clarify the law here in Minnesota, I'll quote from the hunting regulations: "No persons may allow their dog to chase or kill big game. Between January 1 and July 14, a dog observed wounding, killing, or pursuing in a way that endangers big game may be killed by any person....."

Then it goes on to say a peace officer has that authority all year.

Living in north-central Minnesota, I definitely won't be shooting someone's dog for this. It would have to be something egregious for me to do that. Now, I would definitely confront the owner!
“Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions.”
― Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr.

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2528
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by cjhills » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:51 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:Just to clarify the law here in Minnesota, I'll quote from the hunting regulations: "No persons may allow their dog to chase or kill big game. Between January 1 and July 14, a dog observed wounding, killing, or pursuing in a way that endangers big game may be killed by any person....."

Then it goes on to say a peace officer has that authority all year.

Living in north-central Minnesota, I definitely won't be shooting someone's dog for this. It would have to be something egregious for me to do that. Now, I would definitely confront the owner!
Living very near you and knowing the people and traditions of north central Minnesota. I would proceed very carefully with confronting some dog owners. You best leave that to the Conservation Officers. Be aware we are not talking legally,hunting dogs. Most are pets that are allowed to free range and their owners would never believe they are killing game on there own. It always amazes me that people let their dogs out in the morning and don't see them 'til noon and think they are being good little dogs. They Ain't.....Cj

birddogger2
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:15 am
Location: Lower slower Delaware

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by birddogger2 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:40 pm

JonBailey wrote: I honestly don't know what is the best dog breed for a given bird species.
Jon -

There is a whole lot you do not know. You ask questions which reveal the chasm between real dog and hunting knowledge and your perceptions ... and in the next breath you state your opinion as if it were fact, which it is not, most of the time. Some of your questions and responses make me wonder if you are even operating in the same reality that the rest of us reside in.

You argue and pontificate to the point of ridiculousness and yet, when someone points out the fact that you don't know your A$$ from a hole in the ground, you get offended. You really need to get over yourself.

There are plenty of folks on this board whose knowledge is expansive and whose willingness to share that knowledge is open-ended. I suggest you read what is written and learn. Then go out and put what you have learned into practice.

Perhaps someday, if you do that... you might actually have some wisdom to share.

RayG

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 9111
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by Sharon » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:49 pm

So proud of the membership here. Their patience, kindness is remarkable. Thank you.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

User avatar
Dakotazeb
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 671
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:10 pm
Location: South Dakota / Arizona

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by Dakotazeb » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:47 pm

Sharon wrote:So proud of the membership here. Their patience, kindness is remarkable. Thank you.
Our patience may be remarkable, BUT it's running very thin with Jon.
Janee's August Breeze - Bree
http://gundogcentral.com/view_pedigree. ... erations=5

NSTRA Champion Godfather's Dakota Elle 2008-2016
https://gundogcentral.com/view_pedigree ... erations=5

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 9111
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by Sharon » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:38 pm

LOL I hear you.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2528
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: I champion the use of dogs for all kinds of hunting.

Post by cjhills » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:37 pm

Thing is, John has as much right to ask questions and make comments as anyone else, until he gets the boot. No one is forced to answer. He may be a troll but he is easy to ignore him. There is no need to insult him. Some people think it makes them look smarter. It don't......Cj

Locked