I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

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JonBailey
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I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by JonBailey » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:06 am

American Foxhounds are almost virtually extinct. At least my Google search would have me believe that. Finding a pup anywhere in the Lower 48 will be something of the Holy Grail. Walker pups also seem hard to find. Bloodhounds are unattractive. Black and tan coonhounds aren't that pretty. I don't especially like beagles or dachshunds. And Basset hounds are flat-out lazy and homely.

I like the looks of the tall and leggy American Foxhounds and the Treeing Walkers but where in the devil does one find a pup of such breeds anywhere in America? Google searches have not revealed much. They must be a top secret.

Nobody seems to want hounds anymore. Not many people are dedicated to breeding them it seems.

I feel that I would most likely have to travel to the former Confederate States from Idaho out West to find either a foxhound or a Walker puppy. Getting AKC-registerable pups will even be more of an uphill battle. Tricolor is my favorite hound color.

Why do hunting hounds seem so exclusive and rare like a Rolls-Royce, Hope Diamond or a Rolex?
Why are they so seemingly hated and unpopular in America today?

After all, America's Founding Father, George Washington, had 36 American Foxhounds, a breed he invented.
The American Foxhound should be Our National Dog.

There just aren't a ton of breeders that pop up when I Google 'American foxhound' or 'treeing Walker'.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by art hubbard » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:47 am

You are not looking in the right places. There are many Treeing Walker pups for sale. Get "Full cry" magazine or "Coonhound Bloodlines" or "American Cooner" magazines. Lots of hounds in Idaho. Most hunting hounds are registered with U.K.C. (United Kennel Club).

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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by mask » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:57 am

First a treeing walker is not really considered a fox hound unless you are in the far west where a fox will tree. Try a running walker, a july , or a trigg. These breeds are used for coyotes, fox, and deer.

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JonBailey
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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by JonBailey » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:30 am

mask wrote:First a treeing walker is not really considered a fox hound unless you are in the far west where a fox will tree. Try a running walker, a july , or a trigg. These breeds are used for coyotes, fox, and deer.
Not much comes up breeder-wise when "running walker" is Googled either.

I tend to associate "foxhound" with "ground game" and "walker" with "treed game".

Suffice it to say, I want a long-legged tricolor American-foxhound-looking dog for fox, coyote and for blood-trailing any wounded deer.

I don't need a hound for treeing bear, coon or cat.
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JonBailey
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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by JonBailey » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:49 am

art hubbard wrote:You are not looking in the right places. There are many Treeing Walker pups for sale. Get "Full cry" magazine or "Coonhound Bloodlines" or "American Cooner" magazines. Lots of hounds in Idaho. Most hunting hounds are registered with U.K.C. (United Kennel Club).
Actually, the more I read into hounds I am discovering the Treeing Walker is only for lion, bear and such.

I would probably need something like the "Running Walker" version since I have only ground-borne game in mind. Foxes, 'yotes and wounded deer.

I am discovering that "Treeing Walkers", "Triggs", "Julys" and "Running Walkers" are actually kinds of "American Foxhounds" though the AKC still uses "American Foxhound"
as an official breed name.

Why don't hunting hound breeding people like to register their stock with AKC?
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by Steve007 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:59 pm

Your lack of knowledge -- and your willingness to pontificate and display it-- never ceases to astound. There are over 100 registered packs of Foxhounds plus quite a few private packs in the US. Over 170 worldwide. I've hunted with five plus a full season with The Rand Hunt in South Africa. The United Kingdom, Ireland, and the United States each have a Masters of Foxhounds Association (MFHA). Each hunt is required to purchase a copy of the “Foxhound Stud Book”. Each hound hunting with the pack (entered) by each hunt must be registered, listed or recorded in the “Foxhound Stud Book” at the MFHA office.

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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by JonBailey » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:36 pm

Steve007 wrote:Your lack of knowledge -- and your willingness to pontificate and display it-- never ceases to astound. There are over 100 registered packs of Foxhounds plus quite a few private packs in the US. Over 170 worldwide. I've hunted with five plus a full season with The Rand Hunt in South Africa. The United Kingdom, Ireland, and the United States each have a Masters of Foxhounds Association (MFHA). Each hunt is required to purchase a copy of the “Foxhound Stud Book”. Each hound hunting with the pack (entered) by each hunt must be registered, listed or recorded in the “Foxhound Stud Book” at the MFHA office.
I never claimed to know everything. I rely on Google a lot. These dogs must be very private and under the table if Google doesn't readily reveal breeder information. According to ACK website, no breeders in America exist. Why are hound breeds so special and secretive?

So, where and who are all the breeders? Are these animals NOT sold to the general public?
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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by slistoe » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:56 pm

JonBailey wrote: I never claimed to know everything. I rely on Google a lot. These dogs must be very private and under the table if Google doesn't readily reveal breeder information. According to ACK website, no breeders in America exist. Why are hound breeds so special and secretive?

So, where and who are all the breeders? Are these animals NOT sold to the general public?
You are catching on.

When you can't even count on your fellow hunting community to not stab you in the back, why would you put yourself out in the public?

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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by JonBailey » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:54 pm

slistoe wrote:
JonBailey wrote: I never claimed to know everything. I rely on Google a lot. These dogs must be very private and under the table if Google doesn't readily reveal breeder information. According to ACK website, no breeders in America exist. Why are hound breeds so special and secretive?

So, where and who are all the breeders? Are these animals NOT sold to the general public?
You are catching on.

When you can't even count on your fellow hunting community to not stab you in the back, why would you put yourself out in the public?
It sounds like the hound-breeding community has enemies.
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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by slistoe » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:33 pm

JonBailey wrote:
slistoe wrote:
JonBailey wrote: I never claimed to know everything. I rely on Google a lot. These dogs must be very private and under the table if Google doesn't readily reveal breeder information. According to ACK website, no breeders in America exist. Why are hound breeds so special and secretive?

So, where and who are all the breeders? Are these animals NOT sold to the general public?
You are catching on.

When you can't even count on your fellow hunting community to not stab you in the back, why would you put yourself out in the public?
It sounds like the hound-breeding community has enemies.
No, not the hound-breeding community - the hound hunting community. Which of course includes the hound breeding community because no one wants a working hound dog for a house pet - nor should they. PETA and their ilk are after the dog sports and they are being helped in the battle by fellow dog hunters who naively believe they are somehow "better".

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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by JonBailey » Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:27 am

I've been doing a little more research and have asked some questions over at a dedicated houndman's forum. Now I am a lot better in the know about hounds.
A working HOUND is not like a working BIRD DOG. The two most popular breeds in America today are Lab and Golden Retrievers which are widely kept as family dogs as well.
They are also widely available on the purebred dog market as pups. They are highly versatile as a dog for all feathered game seasons from dove to duck.

Hounds are so dam_ specialized. One needs a certain hound for trailing wounded hoofed game, another pack of hounds for treeing game and yet another pack of hounds for running game.
In Idaho we have red fox available in most of the state for hunting year round but local culture out West is not into Red Fox hunting but gray fox, kit fox and coyotes instead. One needs
a pack of hounds most likely to hunt with hounds for most game species where are hounds are customarily used. I don't want to own a whole pack of hounds. I only want two dogs at most.
Most hunters who go hunting where hounds are involved don't own their own hounds but they most likely are supplied by the outfitter, hunt club or guide and have dedicated handlers in the field.
It is beginning to look apparent to me that hunting hounds are not practical for the DIY hunter or as an individual personal dog. I can only see myself now possibly owning a single hound as a blood-tracker for big game and another dog, a retriever, for wingshooting. Perhaps a bitch hound and a male retriever since I like to keep dogs in pairs as a male and female and not necessarily of the same breed. Having two dogs of the same sex often invites trouble.

Hounds are noisy from all that constant baying. I will take advice from Elvis on hounds:

You ain't nothin' but a hound dog
Cryin' all the time
You ain't nothin' but a hound dog
Cryin' all the time
Well, you ain't never caught a rabbit and you ain't no friend of mine.
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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by slistoe » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:57 am

Well, you still have a few things wrong. I would say that Labs and Golden Retrievers are the most popular pet breeds in America today and they are sometimes used as gun dogs as well (by comparison of numbers).

Having two dogs of different sexes and different breeds will invite trouble if they are not spayed or neutered. If your dogs are spayed or neutered having two of the same sex is no more trouble than the other way.

If your concern is recovery of wounded/dead big game there is no need to have a specialized hound aside from the romantic notion of it. The Europeans certainly don't use hounds - that is what the Versatile Dogs were for. For the romantic in you I will put up this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS7Lc4qjpV4

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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by JonBailey » Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:05 pm

slistoe wrote:Well, you still have a few things wrong. I would say that Labs and Golden Retrievers are the most popular pet breeds in America today and they are sometimes used as gun dogs as well (by comparison of numbers).

Having two dogs of different sexes and different breeds will invite trouble if they are not spayed or neutered. If your dogs are spayed or neutered having two of the same sex is no more trouble than the other way.

If your concern is recovery of wounded/dead big game there is no need to have a specialized hound aside from the romantic notion of it. The Europeans certainly don't use hounds - that is what the Versatile Dogs were for. For the romantic in you I will put up this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS7Lc4qjpV4
But the American way with deer recovery is always with a hound breed. Tricolor American Foxhounds and Walkers are oh so pretty.
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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by slistoe » Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:27 pm

JonBailey wrote:
But the American way with deer recovery is always with a hound breed. Tricolor American Foxhounds and Walkers are oh so pretty.
Well, I will grant you the pretty part on the foxhounds, but where do you come up with the "American way"?

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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by Meller » Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:39 pm

JonBailey , Have you ever gotten a dog yet or a shotgun and went hunting, this would help you understand a whole lot more about the hunting world!

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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by brindleplott » Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:41 pm

You should look into getting a subscription to Full cry. Used to be people that wrote articles about blood trailing game. If i remember correctly they used German Wirehairs, Fox Terriers, Jagd terriers, dogs that were a little more under control than a hound on a leash. They would often turn them loose on the blood trail, and the dogs would bay when the deer was found.
The reason hound hunters don't run trash(coyotes,red fox, and deer) in the west is the terrain is mostly too rough, and we don"t have the road systems they do in some of the flatter states. Turning loose on a running bear can make for a really looong day, let alone running trash.

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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by polmaise » Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:54 pm

Meller wrote:JonBailey , Have you ever gotten a dog yet or a shotgun and went hunting, this would help you understand a whole lot more about the hunting world!
No reason too .Y"all give . So why the need ? :roll:

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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by duckn66 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:51 pm

Jonbailey I don’t know the extent of your knowledge and experience with hounds. Mine is very limited. In my youth I had hounds and coon hunted a lot. I went to night hunts, never ran a dog but went with those who did. You need to be in “hound country” to find good hounds readily. OR, be in the circle of those in your area who are houndsmen. It’s a small circle in my opinion. At least it used to be.

A subscription to Full Cry magazine is where I would start my search.

I miss having hounds and hunting with them.

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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by Steve007 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:03 pm

polmaise wrote:
Meller wrote:JonBailey , Have you ever gotten a dog yet or a shotgun and went hunting, this would help you understand a whole lot more about the hunting world!
No reason too .Y"all give . So why the need ? :roll:
JonBailey may find this analogy difficult to relate to, but, as with making love, there is more to the subject than can be learned by reading about it.

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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:52 pm

JonBailey wrote:
slistoe wrote:Well, you still have a few things wrong. I would say that Labs and Golden Retrievers are the most popular pet breeds in America today and they are sometimes used as gun dogs as well (by comparison of numbers).

Having two dogs of different sexes and different breeds will invite trouble if they are not spayed or neutered. If your dogs are spayed or neutered having two of the same sex is no more trouble than the other way.

If your concern is recovery of wounded/dead big game there is no need to have a specialized hound aside from the romantic notion of it. The Europeans certainly don't use hounds - that is what the Versatile Dogs were for. For the romantic in you I will put up this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS7Lc4qjpV4
But the American way with deer recovery is always with a hound breed. Tricolor American Foxhounds and Walkers are oh so pretty.
Not true Jon. Many states do not allow dogs yo be used in deer hunting or recovery. Also, the lack of fox hounds is related to fox hunting laws That do no allow fox hunting with dogs or horses. Hounds are quite popular for coon hunting with Walkers be one of the most popular. Fox number have dropped drastically as the coyote is taking hold of their habitat.
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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by bustingcover » Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:41 pm

walkers are some of the most common hounds around back east and down south. All around dog that will run anything you want them to. If you’re having trouble looking for a hound you’re looking in the wrong place. English coonhounds are another really nice breed.

Also most hound guys register ukc or pkc. Akc is a minority.
Last edited by bustingcover on Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:32 am

bustingcover wrote: English coonhounds are another really nice breed.
Well that made me sit up and pay attention ! I thought for a moment that them there sneaky English had been keeping their coon hunting secret for all these years ! :lol: Until I read this I had no idea that this breed of dog existed, however, I have now google searched it and am now an expert on the breed ! :lol: :lol:

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Re: I am very disheartened about hounds in America today.

Post by polmaise » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:40 pm

Steve007 wrote: JonBailey may find this analogy difficult to relate to, but, as with making love, there is more to the subject than can be learned by reading about it.
Most Probably .! Apparently some are in a room researching .....Alone . :roll:

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