Grey Wolf

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cjhills
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Grey Wolf

Post by cjhills » Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:39 pm

Grey Wolf got taken off the endangered species list today. Probably alright In Minnesota .
not so good in other places. One pack in California........Cj

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by Sharon » Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:40 pm

That's very interesting. Sounds premature to me.
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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by birds » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:05 pm

Boy what a topic. Good news (in my view at least and I'm an elk hunter) is that if you have enough country (like n. Minnesota) they'll do fine if they are treated as big game animals and harvest is controlled. Here in MT we have more than we ever have had since recovery began in the 90's (and more elk overall) and in a wider range. Anybody can buy a tag over the counter. They are trapped as well. But there is a season, albeit a long one. What the big lesson has been is that wolves are extremely smart, adaptable and prolific when conditions dictate. Once they get hunted a bit they melt into the landscape. There are A LOT of of unpunched wolf tags at the end of every season and plenty of people who early on thought they could "take care of the wolf problem" learned a valuable lesson in why the Feds had to resort to poison to eradicate them in the early 20th century. But they need lots of country and they need a chance to get established.

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by mask » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:48 pm

Wolves have hurt the big game population in Idaho.

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by birds » Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:02 am

mask wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:48 pm
Wolves have hurt the big game population in Idaho.
I have heard this and find it interesting. Here - right next door - in MT in some hunting districts (mine and we have wolves) one could potentially shoot three elk and in many others two. I do know that here wolves definitely change how elk use the landscape and that hunters have had to change too. Not saying that's what is happening in ID - I'll take your word for it as I don't know. Its my understanding that some places like Yellowstone had way too many elk when compared to historic populations. It made for great elk hunting when they migrated out of the Park, but the overall habitat in the Park was in poor shape. Once the elk population was reduced the habitat started to come back into some sense of equilibrium and species diversity bloomed. It all gets pretty complicated and intertwined in the end. So many factors enter into it - both human and non-human - livestock grazing, public vs. private land, historic fire regimes vs. fire management, human hunting pressure, climatic changes, predators, day to day weather. One interesting sociological thing that has happened here is that since a wolf hunting season opened the outcry against wolves has faded considerably. The public having some say in wolf management seems to have brought the temperature down on the former controversy. Having plenty of elk probably doesn't hurt either :wink:

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by art hubbard » Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:37 am

Where I live (central panhandle) of Idaho, before the introduction of the wolves, Our Elk population was about 10,000 head. Today it is about 1,000. These are numbers from the Idaho Fish and Game. Good luck to those who think that the Wolves won't hurt the game populations. By the way, our Moose population has all but disappeared.

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by DonF » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:09 am

mask wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:48 pm
Wolves have hurt the big game population in Idaho.
When I lived in Montana, early 70's, Idaho tried to talk Montana into re-introducing the wolf. They got told no! In the end Idaho did it and the wolves have simply spread out from there. As I understand it, all the wolves in Montana, Washington, Oregon and California came in from Idaho! I think they are beautiful animals but I like my bird dog's better. Wolves are better off in wilderness areas. I don't turn my dog's loose in areas where they have been sighted.
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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by birds » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:55 am

art hubbard wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:37 am
Where I live (central panhandle) of Idaho, before the introduction of the wolves, Our Elk population was about 10,000 head. Today it is about 1,000. These are numbers from the Idaho Fish and Game. Good luck to those who think that the Wolves won't hurt the game populations. By the way, our Moose population has all but disappeared.
Interesting. I just checked MT FWP numbers - we have over 136,000 elk and over 1300 wolves statewide. Our moose population has gone south most places too, (not around here - they are expanding and have been showing up way out on the prairie) but until the last couple years a parasite (winter ticks) have been taking a big toll on moose in some places. Winter tick populations explode with warmer, drier winters. You are absolutely right - wolves eat big game for a living, but there are often other factors that can be playing a roll. There almost always are, otherwise the wolf population would sink along side the prey population. It also makes you wonder what the elk population in the ID panhandle was historically - say in 1850 or so. One assumes there were elk and wolves living side by side then. I'm sure there is info out there. I remember that just across the mountains in the Bitterroot Valley of MT wolves were blamed for the crash of the elk population there. Research ended up proving that lions actually had a greater impact on elk numbers than wolves did. I think they upped the lion quota, but I have not heard the outcome on that one. Whatever the whole story may be its bad news for ID elk hunters.
DonF - You could be right but my understanding is that our wolves came from two sources - a population that expanded out of Alberta (by way of Glacier Nat Park) and the well documented re-introduction in Yellowstone National Park.
In the end, for better or for worse, they are here and outside a federally funded eradication program of poison and aerial gunnery they are likely here to stay. Declaring unlimited hunting of wolves won't get it done. They are too smart and there is too much country for them to disappear into.

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by cjhills » Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:34 am

I have always favored our DNR managing the wolf in MN. I think we have than the DNR count.
We see a few while grouse and deer hunting. We hear a lot of howling where we hunt Grouse. Never had one get a dog. They are Probably blamed for a lot of problems they do not cause......Cj.

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:14 am

Great news for Wi.! Our packs are expanding at a tremendous rate. They kill 20-40 dogs a year and depredate domestic animals to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollar. Best thing to do if you want true information if to go the the Wi. DNR website and look under wolf depredation. I like wolves but they HAVE to be managed. Right now they have no fear of man. Best thing any hunter can do is pepper everyone they see with 8's so they gain some respect and fear of man.
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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by mnaj_springer » Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:05 am

I think this is great! The state wildlife agencies usually have a better finger on the pulse when it comes to local wildlife. Hopefully a healthy population can be maintained through our North American conservation model.
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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by IDHunter » Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:46 pm

DonF wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:09 am
mask wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:48 pm
Wolves have hurt the big game population in Idaho.
When I lived in Montana, early 70's, Idaho tried to talk Montana into re-introducing the wolf. They got told no! In the end Idaho did it and the wolves have simply spread out from there. As I understand it, all the wolves in Montana, Washington, Oregon and California came in from Idaho! I think they are beautiful animals but I like my bird dog's better. Wolves are better off in wilderness areas. I don't turn my dog's loose in areas where they have been sighted.
I'd like to know who in Idaho was trying to talk anyone into reintroducing the wolves. The common story around here is that very few of the old timers and natives wanted them, and the feds were the ones pushing the agenda. I do believe that a lot of the wolves in surrounding states may have originated here, as Idaho seems to have been the "test subject" for reintroduction, and those suckers cover some ground. I know a local guy shot one in SW Idaho this fall that had been collared out of the Helena FWP office, so that pup was definitely well traveled.

I don't think delisting them is going to do much. The season here is very liberal already, and tags are cheap. Wolves are hard to bump into most of the time. I spend a lot of time in the woods, and have only seen them a few times. Have heard them a handful more. We see wolf sign pretty regularly, but they are good at avoiding humans, so I don't expect we're suddenly going to see a spike in wolf killings with the delisting.

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by greg jacobs » Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:44 am

Congress wouldn't fund the wolf reintroduction so money was robbed from other projects to fund it. The strain of wolves that was originally in Yellowstone was the strain that is in the NE United States. They chose to import a larger more aggressive strain from Canada that creates larger packs. Whoever made these decisions should go to prison. Anyone from the northeast needs to understand that these wolves create a much different situation than what the NE has.. Everywhere that large populations have been established the moose, elk, and deer numbers have dropped dramatically. Hunting seasons will have to be altered to protect what few animals that will be left. Wolves aren't that great eating so hunters will be far more dependent on the grocery stores. Hunting produces a fair amount of revenue for the states so the States will have to find new ways to replace this money. Washington is already heavily taxed. Not sure what they are going to come up with. I'd like to send a few over to the west side of Washington. Their love of the wolf might change.

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by cjhills » Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:24 am

IDHunter:
How does Idaho have a liberal season and Cheap tags when the wolf is on the federal endangered species list. We can not shoot one that we caught in the act of killing livestock.
I think it makes more sense for the states DNR to deal with the Grey Wolf. We had a season on them before they were put back on the endangered list.
Mn. has more wolves than any state except Alaska. About 3 to 4 times as many as Wisc. I believe Montana imported wolves from here.
I live on the south edge of their range. We see them occasionally and there is some cattle depredation. When we hunt grouse farther north we hear them at night. We never see them. I do fear for the dogs, but never had an issue. I don't hear much of people losing dogs. It seems like it is mostly bear hunters that lose the dogs in Wisc. we can't hunt bears with dogs here.
One thing for people who have not seen one in the wild. You won't think you saw a wolf, you know immediately.
I do wonder why they would be a problem with all the wild area there is in the western states.
I spent some time observing the Yellowstone packs to get some ideas on how canine packs communicate. They don't seem to increase much and strange things happen to control their numbers. Sometimes they just decide to kill a pack member.....Cj
PS. From the Washington wolf report it appears that Washington has about 150 Wolves in 21 packs.

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by birds » Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:32 am

greg jacobs wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:44 am
Congress wouldn't fund the wolf reintroduction so money was robbed from other projects to fund it. The strain of wolves that was originally in Yellowstone was the strain that is in the NE United States. They chose to import a larger more aggressive strain from Canada that creates larger packs. Whoever made these decisions should go to prison. Anyone from the northeast needs to understand that these wolves create a much different situation than what the NE has.. Everywhere that large populations have been established the moose, elk, and deer numbers have dropped dramatically. Hunting seasons will have to be altered to protect what few animals that will be left. Wolves aren't that great eating so hunters will be far more dependent on the grocery stores. Hunting produces a fair amount of revenue for the states so the States will have to find new ways to replace this money. Washington is already heavily taxed. Not sure what they are going to come up with. I'd like to send a few over to the west side of Washington. Their love of the wolf might change.
Greg -
I won't attempt to speak for other states I don't live in and am not familiar with. I will only speak for MT where I have lived, worked in land management and hunted for the last 30 years. I pretty sure MT has the largest and most widespread population of wolves in the west. We also have more elk than we have had since people started keeping track. If I was motivated to do it (and I am not, nor are most people) I could shoot 3 elk and at least 2 deer this season in my hunting district I( live east of the Divide). Some elk seasons on private land run from mid-Aug thru Feb. We have plenty of wolves - I have seen them even out in the grasslands when hunting sharptails. Wolf hunting seasons are long as well - Sept thru March. Wolf tags are available over-the-counter and are cheap (in some states in the west wolves have been de-listed and are managed by the states with management plans approved by the feds). You can trap wolves too. On the other hand too many elk are a major management concern here with landowners. How to manage elk more effectively is a very common issue across the state. And yet as the elk numbers continue to surge and elk managers scratch their heads on how to manage them, wolf numbers have leveled off and have been fairly steady the last 20 years. Livestock depredations have leveled off as well as managers learned to manage livestock differently. Here at least it seems wolves have found their niche again.
As I stated in an earlier post, many things go into wildlife population dynamics and the most important component of all may well be human populations and behaviour. Wolves kill and eat large mammals just like we do. We consider them competition - we always have. Our human history is filled with "The Big Bad Wolf". In some real ways its not a wolf vs. prey issue but a wolf vs. people issue - ungulates have always dealt with wolves otherwise there would have been no ungulates well before we showed up to start pointing fingers. But I am convinced by what is evident around me that if humans are wise enough to protect large landscapes being altered irreparably by us humans there can be room for large predators and their prey - and us. But if we continue to chip away and squeeze what large wild landscapes are left and continue to fill them with people and all that we bring with us we are going to run into more trouble across the board - we already have. If we are truthful with ourselves "we have met the enemy and he is us" rings all too true in all too many places. How we choose to deal with this complex fact will have far more impact on our hunting future than whether or not a few wolves gain a toe hold in a few states. When it comes to wolves it isn't necessarily "the sky is falling".

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by cjhills » Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:35 am

Were Grey Wolves already delisted in some states.
If so that is a surprise to me.
They made a pretty big deal of the delisting here. I won't go into why......Cj

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by weimdogman » Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:57 am

Birds , this is one of the best written responses I have read on any subject on the web in a long time!

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by DonF » Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:26 am

Can't wait till they decide to bring back some bad dinosaurs!
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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by deseeker » Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:50 am

DonF wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:26 am
Can't wait till they decide to bring back some bad dinosaurs!
:D :roll: :D :roll: :!:

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by greg jacobs » Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:29 pm

birds wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:32 am
greg jacobs wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:44 am
Congress wouldn't fund the wolf reintroduction so money was robbed from other projects to fund it. The strain of wolves that was originally in Yellowstone was the strain that is in the NE United States. They chose to import a larger more aggressive strain from Canada that creates larger packs. Whoever made these decisions should go to prison. Anyone from the northeast needs to understand that these wolves create a much different situation than what the NE has.. Everywhere that large populations have been established the moose, elk, and deer numbers have dropped dramatically. Hunting seasons will have to be altered to protect what few animals that will be left. Wolves aren't that great eating so hunters will be far more dependent on the grocery stores. Hunting produces a fair amount of revenue for the states so the States will have to find new ways to replace this money. Washington is already heavily taxed. Not sure what they are going to come up with. I'd like to send a few over to the west side of Washington. Their love of the wolf might change.
Greg -
I won't attempt to speak for other states I don't live in and am not familiar with. I will only speak for MT where I have lived, worked in land management and hunted for the last 30 years. I pretty sure MT has the largest and most widespread population of wolves in the west. We also have more elk than we have had since people started keeping track. If I was motivated to do it (and I am not, nor are most people) I could shoot 3 elk and at least 2 deer this season in my hunting district I( live east of the Divide). Some elk seasons on private land run from mid-Aug thru Feb. We have plenty of wolves - I have seen them even out in the grasslands when hunting sharptails. Wolf hunting seasons are long as well - Sept thru March. Wolf tags are available over-the-counter and are cheap (in some states in the west wolves have been de-listed and are managed by the states with management plans approved by the feds). You can trap wolves too. On the other hand too many elk are a major management concern here with landowners. How to manage elk more effectively is a very common issue across the state. And yet as the elk numbers continue to surge and elk managers scratch their heads on how to manage them, wolf numbers have leveled off and have been fairly steady the last 20 years. Livestock depredations have leveled off as well as managers learned to manage livestock differently. Here at least it seems wolves have found their niche again.
As I stated in an earlier post, many things go into wildlife population dynamics and the most important component of all may well be human populations and behaviour. Wolves kill and eat large mammals just like we do. We consider them competition - we always have. Our human history is filled with "The Big Bad Wolf". In some real ways its not a wolf vs. prey issue but a wolf vs. people issue - ungulates have always dealt with wolves otherwise there would have been no ungulates well before we showed up to start pointing fingers. But I am convinced by what is evident around me that if humans are wise enough to protect large landscapes being altered irreparably by us humans there can be room for large predators and their prey - and us. But if we continue to chip away and squeeze what large wild landscapes are left and continue to fill them with people and all that we bring with us we are going to run into more trouble across the board - we already have. If we are truthful with ourselves "we have met the enemy and he is us" rings all too true in all too many places. How we choose to deal with this complex fact will have far more impact on our hunting future than whether or not a few wolves gain a toe hold in a few states. When it comes to wolves it isn't necessarily "the sky is falling".
The Yellowstone elk herd went from 20,000 to less than 4000. More than that all the areas with significant wolf populations are down in numbers. The breaks don't have wolves. And like I said they reintroduced the wrong strain when they imported the wolves from Canada
Last edited by greg jacobs on Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by greg jacobs » Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:40 pm

birds wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:55 am
art hubbard wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:37 am
Where I live (central panhandle) of Idaho, before the introduction of the wolves, Our Elk population was about 10,000 head. Today it is about 1,000. These are numbers from the Idaho Fish and Game. Good luck to those who think that the Wolves won't hurt the game populations. By the way, our Moose population has all but disappeared.
Interesting. I just checked MT FWP numbers - we have over 136,000 elk and over 1300 wolves statewide. Our moose population has gone south most places too, (not around here - they are expanding and have been showing up way out on the prairie) but until the last couple years a parasite (winter ticks) have been taking a big toll on moose in some places. Winter tick populations explode with warmer, drier winters. You are absolutely right - wolves eat big game for a living, but there are often other factors that can be playing a roll. There almost always are, otherwise the wolf population would sink along side the prey population. It also makes you wonder what the elk population in the ID panhandle was historically - say in 1850 or so. One assumes there were elk and wolves living side by side then. I'm sure there is info out there. I remember that just across the mountains in the Bitterroot Valley of MT wolves were blamed for the crash of the elk population there. Research ended up proving that lions actually had a greater impact on elk numbers than wolves did. I think they upped the lion quota, but I have not heard the outcome on that one. Whatever the whole story may be its bad news for ID elk hunters.
DonF - You could be right but my understanding is that our wolves came from two sources - a population that expanded out of Alberta (by way of Glacier Nat Park) and the well documented re-introduction in Yellowstone National Park.
In the end, for better or for worse, they are here and outside a federally funded eradication program of poison and aerial gunnery they are likely here to stay. Declaring unlimited hunting of wolves won't get it done. They are too smart and there is too much country for them to disappear into.
The moose have been chased into these new areas. They are trying to escape the areas with heavy wolf population.

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by greg jacobs » Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:16 pm

weimdogman wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:57 am
Birds , this is one of the best written responses I have read on any subject on the web in a long time!

Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Full of misleading statements

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by birds » Wed Nov 04, 2020 7:40 am

greg jacobs wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:16 pm
weimdogman wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:57 am
Birds , this is one of the best written responses I have read on any subject on the web in a long time!

Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Full of misleading statements
Like...?

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by birds » Wed Nov 04, 2020 7:49 am

greg jacobs wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:29 pm
birds wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:32 am
greg jacobs wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:44 am
Congress wouldn't fund the wolf reintroduction so money was robbed from other projects to fund it. The strain of wolves that was originally in Yellowstone was the strain that is in the NE United States. They chose to import a larger more aggressive strain from Canada that creates larger packs. Whoever made these decisions should go to prison. Anyone from the northeast needs to understand that these wolves create a much different situation than what the NE has.. Everywhere that large populations have been established the moose, elk, and deer numbers have dropped dramatically. Hunting seasons will have to be altered to protect what few animals that will be left. Wolves aren't that great eating so hunters will be far more dependent on the grocery stores. Hunting produces a fair amount of revenue for the states so the States will have to find new ways to replace this money. Washington is already heavily taxed. Not sure what they are going to come up with. I'd like to send a few over to the west side of Washington. Their love of the wolf might change.
Greg -
I won't attempt to speak for other states I don't live in and am not familiar with. I will only speak for MT where I have lived, worked in land management and hunted for the last 30 years. I pretty sure MT has the largest and most widespread population of wolves in the west. We also have more elk than we have had since people started keeping track. If I was motivated to do it (and I am not, nor are most people) I could shoot 3 elk and at least 2 deer this season in my hunting district I( live east of the Divide). Some elk seasons on private land run from mid-Aug thru Feb. We have plenty of wolves - I have seen them even out in the grasslands when hunting sharptails. Wolf hunting seasons are long as well - Sept thru March. Wolf tags are available over-the-counter and are cheap (in some states in the west wolves have been de-listed and are managed by the states with management plans approved by the feds). You can trap wolves too. On the other hand too many elk are a major management concern here with landowners. How to manage elk more effectively is a very common issue across the state. And yet as the elk numbers continue to surge and elk managers scratch their heads on how to manage them, wolf numbers have leveled off and have been fairly steady the last 20 years. Livestock depredations have leveled off as well as managers learned to manage livestock differently. Here at least it seems wolves have found their niche again.
As I stated in an earlier post, many things go into wildlife population dynamics and the most important component of all may well be human populations and behaviour. Wolves kill and eat large mammals just like we do. We consider them competition - we always have. Our human history is filled with "The Big Bad Wolf". In some real ways its not a wolf vs. prey issue but a wolf vs. people issue - ungulates have always dealt with wolves otherwise there would have been no ungulates well before we showed up to start pointing fingers. But I am convinced by what is evident around me that if humans are wise enough to protect large landscapes being altered irreparably by us humans there can be room for large predators and their prey - and us. But if we continue to chip away and squeeze what large wild landscapes are left and continue to fill them with people and all that we bring with us we are going to run into more trouble across the board - we already have. If we are truthful with ourselves "we have met the enemy and he is us" rings all too true in all too many places. How we choose to deal with this complex fact will have far more impact on our hunting future than whether or not a few wolves gain a toe hold in a few states. When it comes to wolves it isn't necessarily "the sky is falling".
The Yellowstone elk herd went from 20,000 to less than 4000. More than that all the areas with significant wolf populations are down in numbers. The breaks don't have wolves. And like I said they reintroduced the wrong strain when they imported the wolves from Canada
You need to check FWP's numbers. I dont live in the Breaks - there is a lot of MT east of the Divide that isnt in the Breaks - we have wolves and our elk population is thru the roof. Period.
The Yellowstone elk heard was too large for it's range - that has been documented. The population drop sucked if all you cared about was easily whacking a cow elk north of the Park. If you cared about the overall health of the Park wolves were a good thing. Look it up.

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by weimdogman » Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:23 am

There is a great short video on how the Yellowstone changed for the better with the introduction of wolves.
In a brief summary the elk were forced to go roam rather then just hang out at water sources. This gave vegetation and trees a chance to develop along the water ways. More cover,and a variety of food for all of wildlife.

The Yellowstone lesson put heavy emphasis on the importance of controlled grazing which can be used in commercial ranching/meat production. Better meat and a way healthier environment.

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by art hubbard » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:18 am

Greg, I'm with you 100%. Those can preach all day about how much good these wolves do. Of course they don't live among them. Also wolves have been a legal target here in Idaho for a number of years now...

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by mask » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:37 am

Those that backed wolf reintroduction here were mostly animal rights people and most of the money to push it came from outside the state. These are anti-hunting folks and their agenda should be obvious to anyone. In short the wolves have to eat so there is less game for hunters.In the central part of the state the elk population has dropped dramatically. Hounds and all types of dogs have been killed not to mention the livestock. The biologist from Canada warned against the release of this type wolf and stated they were trying to get rid of them. Bears kill a lot of elk calves which lowers the population, We don't need wolves to make matters worse.

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by birds » Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:44 pm

People are obviously going to believe what they want to believe - even in the face of documented, published, peer-reviewed evidence to the contrary.
Humans will be humans - its all about us in so many more ways than one. It always has been and I can't see it changing much now :roll: .
Speaking of which - I'm out of this one - too much like politics and there has been enough of that lately to last me the rest of my life. Plus I need to go elk hunting....Good luck everybody! :D

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by cjhills » Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:05 pm

Birds I'm with you. We need more science and less politics...........Cj

IDHunter
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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by IDHunter » Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:42 pm

cjhills wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:24 am
IDHunter:
How does Idaho have a liberal season and Cheap tags when the wolf is on the federal endangered species list. We can not shoot one that we caught in the act of killing livestock.
I think it makes more sense for the states DNR to deal with the Grey Wolf. We had a season on them before they were put back on the endangered list.
Mn. has more wolves than any state except Alaska. About 3 to 4 times as many as Wisc. I believe Montana imported wolves from here.
I live on the south edge of their range. We see them occasionally and there is some cattle depredation. When we hunt grouse farther north we hear them at night. We never see them. I do fear for the dogs, but never had an issue. I don't hear much of people losing dogs. It seems like it is mostly bear hunters that lose the dogs in Wisc. we can't hunt bears with dogs here.
One thing for people who have not seen one in the wild. You won't think you saw a wolf, you know immediately.
I do wonder why they would be a problem with all the wild area there is in the western states.
I spent some time observing the Yellowstone packs to get some ideas on how canine packs communicate. They don't seem to increase much and strange things happen to control their numbers. Sometimes they just decide to kill a pack member.....Cj
PS. From the Washington wolf report it appears that Washington has about 150 Wolves in 21 packs.
The season runs year long in many units, and almost year long in the rest. Tags are dirt cheap, $13.50 for a resident wolf tag. Each person can buy up to 15 tags per year, and kill up to 15 wolves if they are actually able to do it. As far as HOW Idaho and other western states have been doing this, I don't know the mechanics of the legal process that allows for it, but we have had this type of season for several years now. As I said though, the problem for the vast majority of people is finding wolves to actually shoot.

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greg jacobs
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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by greg jacobs » Wed Nov 04, 2020 7:28 pm

The problem with science is it is often heavily biased. Easy to find science that supports both sides. At that point you choose which science aligns with ones opinions. When scientists have pre-conceived opinions it is easy to guide your science to the results you wish to reach

CJ we would gladly exchange the wolf strain we have to deal with vs the ones that were here in the past which is what you have. Maybe you don't understand the difference. They introduced a strain that was never here and should never have been brought here. And as far as washington numbers they are heavily under reported by a group with a pro wolf agenda. They have denied that wolves are in areas with many game cam pictures of wolves.

Birdie, haven't seen you address the strain that was introduced into Yellowstone for nothing was reintroduced. That makes them an invasive species.

brindleplott
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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by brindleplott » Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:28 pm

Everbody is forgetting that when they brought them to Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana in the 90s they were called Experimental Non Essential.
They also knew there was a small population in extreme northwestern Montana, and occasional occurrences in Idaho, Wyoming, and Washington.
Those populations are either diluted by the current wolf species, or killed by them.

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greg jacobs
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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by greg jacobs » Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:59 am

brindleplott wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:28 pm
Everbody is forgetting that when they brought them to Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana in the 90s they were called Experimental Non Essential.
They also knew there was a small population in extreme northwestern Montana, and occasional occurrences in Idaho, Wyoming, and Washington.
Those populations are either diluted by the current wolf species, or killed by them.
There were no verifiable breeding pairs before the introduction.

no transplants occurred after 1996 because of the early success of the reintroductions.

The subspecies brought from northwestern Canada were larger, more aggressive, and created larger packs, and were extremely successful

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greg jacobs
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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by greg jacobs » Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:44 am

For those interested in the truth about the reintroduction of wolves in yellowstone

https://montanapioneer.com/non-native-w ... eblower-2/

birds
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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by birds » Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:06 pm

greg jacobs wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:59 am
brindleplott wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:28 pm
Everbody is forgetting that when they brought them to Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana in the 90s they were called Experimental Non Essential.
They also knew there was a small population in extreme northwestern Montana, and occasional occurrences in Idaho, Wyoming, and Washington.
Those populations are either diluted by the current wolf species, or killed by them.
There were no verifiable breeding pairs before the introduction.

no transplants occurred after 1996 because of the early success of the reintroductions.

The subspecies brought from northwestern Canada were larger, more aggressive, and created larger packs, and were extremely successful
Greg -

Please read the first paragraph under "background".

https://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/es ... t2000.html

This whole thing about different subspecies mystifies me. So what? Are we forgetting that "Buffalo wolves" (a larger subspecies) once roamed all across MT and somehow did not drive elk (or any other ungulate) into extinction? They co-existed,just like elk and wolves do in most places in MT today. The numbers bear this out. Wolves made elk what they are. Period.

As to the local moose. they are not being "driven" anywhere by wolves. I have extensive first-hand personal knowledge of this. Twenty years ago we had very few moose locally. Around 2000 the population began to grow quickly, based around several large fen wetlands that are ideal moose habitat. Though winter ticks were terrible in some years, the conditions were apparently ideal and the population continues to grow. The outsourcing of moose is a product of natural dispersal, not wolf depredation. Its documented. I also know this because I spent 15 years as a manager on a large property(20k acres) that in part encompasses the biggest of these wetlands (5k acres) - I watched it happen. We had wolves occasionally and while they killed some elk, to my knowledge they never bothered moose. I'm not saying it never happened. I know grizzlies offed some calves, but what does a moose expect out of life :) I was out on the land nearly every day (weather permitting) during that period and never passed up an opportunity to investigate a gathering of ravens and magpies - a guarantee at any large carcass site. Historic records have moose occurring far out onto the plains along riparian corridors.They travel - especially during the rut. That is established biological fact.

As an invasive species manager I can absolutely guarantee that a far greater threat to the health of western wild lands across the board are invasive plants that erode the food base of all large ungulates. Period. Plants are just not as much fun to yell about. You can't shoot them either (at least not very successfully) And we drag them around everywhere we go. Do the research and then come back and convince me that wolves are a bigger issue to long term elk survival in the west than invasives like spotted knapweed, yellow star thistle, rush skeleton weed and annual grasses like cheatgrass, medusa head and ventenata. Its pretty hard for an elk to make a living where the range conditions have eroded to the point that they have in many, many places. Hard for anything to make a living. Our native plant base is disappearing under our noses and all we can do is jump up and down about wolves. It makes me tired.

Did I mention that my setter Levon pointed and retrieved his first hun this morning? We're pretty proud :D

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Sharon
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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by Sharon » Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:55 pm

Appreciate you gentlemen keeping the politics to a minimum here. Thank you.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by Ricwoodard » Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:36 pm

Pretty interesting debate but i haven't seen hard evidence supporting either claim. With that said, that doesn't mean it doesnt exist... I just haven't seen it.

My only concern is the fact that I saw someone mention that studies should be ignored due to bias. You really have to be careful with this mindset because your own bias can interfere with your ability to see the actual data. You can't dismiss data just because it doesn't align with what you believe or want to see.

Grats on the point! Can't wait for the opener here.

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by MNTonester » Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:28 pm

I find it interesting in the MN game synopsis, it cautions not to accidentally shoot a wolf thinking it is a coyote (an unprotected species). The caution is due to the expansion of the wolf population far outside the north woods. I hunt pheasants down near St. Cloud, and my farmer friend has seen them on his property. The area I hunt is sort of a transition from forest to farm so it doesn't surprise me

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by brindleplott » Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:33 pm

What proof did the Federal Fish and Wildlife service have that the ones they introduced were the same species as the ones that were originally here? Other than their own bias opinions.
The biggest problem with the wolf introduction was the states were forced into it. There was severe opposition by the people running the states and the citizens of the states. Wyoming was the only state with enough spine to not cave in to the federal government's pressure.
I feel the ultimate reason for wolf introduction was control: If there's less game, there's less people trying to hunt, people loose interest in hunting, less reason to own guns.

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by mask » Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:35 pm

Some may have missed the fact that in Idaho animal rights and anti-hunting groups pushed this garbage. Where there are no or few wolves the elk are holding their own where there are many the elk are declining.

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by birds » Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:11 pm

mask wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:35 pm
Some may have missed the fact that in Idaho animal rights and anti-hunting groups pushed this garbage. Where there are no or few wolves the elk are holding their own where there are many the elk are declining.
For the record - Grey wolves are a single species with numerous subspecies that have existed for thousands of years all across the northern hemisphere.
It makes me wonder how elk (or anything else) survive in BC and Alberta where these "super wolves" originated. Or in MT where elk and wolves are both doing quite well overall. Maybe Idaho needs to import a new subspecies of elk? :wink:
Something else (or many somethings) are likely going on concurrently. Just a thought....

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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by mask » Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:59 pm

Yeah birds, I guess it all depends on whose ox is being gored. :(

birds
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Re: Grey Wolf

Post by birds » Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:12 pm

mask wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:59 pm
Yeah birds, I guess it all depends on whose ox is being gored. :(
mask - You are absolutely right on that.
As Aldo Leopold said "man brings all things to the test of himself..."
Believe me - I'd be bummed about no elk too. I just wish folks would try and see beyond the "easy" answers in what is almost always a complex situation. Wolves are (and always have been) a simple and easy out for everybody. And that includes some biologists stuck in situations that are too often controlled by forces other than science.

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