Can you breed out a bad bite?

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri May 09, 2008 3:35 pm

Millers White Powder was one of the finest pointers to ever live but he would consistently produce pups that were low in the front.

He also produced some incredible winners!! ...like National Champion Miller's On Line and multiple time Ch. Miller’s Southern Pride. ...and many more!!

...perhaps the females had something to do with it???

jessie · Post by **jessie** » Fri May 09, 2008 7:56 pm

I thought that too Ross but I've seen a hundred or so dogs out of him and 90% were low in the front. It was a known problem out of him. Just goes to show that even the nicest of them all can throw quirks into pups. What about Miller's True Spirit. Can anyone name a good dog he produced. He is one of the winningest dogs of all times, but I digress.

jessie · Post by **jessie** » Fri May 09, 2008 8:00 pm

Tru I sure am not a Magnum expert. I'm merely talking about my buddy's experience that I saw first hand. If you were to breed a female to 5 different males and she threw undershod pups in every litter then you sure would say its the female. Why can't the same be said for a dog like Magnum? Just because he's a good trial dog? Doesn't do it for me.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Fri May 09, 2008 8:10 pm

I would like to mention here that a bad bite does not have to be from some "bad bite" gene back in one of the parents pedigrees. I can't speak for all breeds but in the GSP (and cocker I'm told, at least) the gen for top jaw, and bottow jaw are seperate. No breeding two unlike head types, say short broad muzzle to a long narrow muzzle can produce off bites also. This often crops up when people try to breed to a "better head" than what they have and the types are too varied.

Just a note...

markj · Post by **markj** » Fri May 09, 2008 8:22 pm

Hey tru, I trusted a known breeder trialer guy, got screwed, yep I shoulda held off until I saw the dog work. My mistake and one I wont ever make again. Yep, never trust a trialer guy.... some of them lie like no other.

Was in the 80s dude, the other in a book on the german process of starting this breed. Ever read one? I read your posts see you jump on guys here, too bad that. No need to go further with this or you, have a good day. I am.

jessie · Post by **jessie** » Sat May 10, 2008 7:09 am

Mark some trialers can be trusted when you get a dog from them. Most trialers are selling dogs that they don't like though so keep that in mind. I think the best bet for finding a nice dog is to buy a small pup and raise it yourself. I never buy started dogs from other people. I like to start them myself. I hope you get a good one. I know of a couple of guys that breed nice nice shorthairs and they aren't trialers and will shoot you straight. They have good genetics and soundly built dogs.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sat May 10, 2008 8:02 am

Also to add, what may not suit a trialer can be someone elses dream dog. We always tell someone we will take a dog back with refund if it does not suit them...So, not all trainers or trialers are out to rook you.

markj · Post by **markj** » Sat May 10, 2008 8:24 am

I know that snips and jessie. Not all are bad folk, most I have met lately are fine folk. My female was bought from a trialer and she is one of the best I have owned. You are right about getting a pup, a 5 month old was too old. He probably broke that dogdown and got rid of him t the first guy that came along. He had 11 pups ranging in age from 5 months to 18 months. Told me he was getting out of the business yet I see he has a new web site and a new FC he is advertising as a stud. I have 2 dogs at a trialer/trainer now, one I can trust. He has helped me a lot with the pup I have, I am training him myself and he is coing along very nice. He is out of my Ginger she had a very nice litter that was unexpected. So I say sorry to any I offended, not all are bad and yep buyer beware. I bought my first shorthair in the early 80s and have had many nice dogs to hunt over. I look forward to the next pup coming to me from the fritz stella breeding. I am sure it will be one nice dog too. I did see fritz havent seen stella but did talk to the owner and liked what he had to say.

most folk on this board are very nice and offer great suggestions to questions asked, some? not sure why they even post as all they do is create bad feelings and dissension.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat May 10, 2008 9:13 am

There are quite a few trialers who keep pups to see how they grow up or may hold back on a couple pups cause they would rather see those pups go to trialers

or maybe when the pups matured to a certain age the trialer wasn't seeing every thing that they wanted at that time

most of your more serious people will not be doing anything in regards to real training on a 5 month old pup...

I do a few that try and push pups as broke dogs at 6 months after their 6 weeks training program....but then most people that get duped into those dogs are just average meat hunters and those dogs do fine for them...but they are Far from being real trained dogs.
Just because a dog does something right one time doesn't make it a trained dog

as for breeding an fault out...lets just say if your dog has a fault which will disqualify it from the conformation standards...why perpetuate or potentially perpetuate the problem ...No one dog is absolutely perfectr...but weed out the bad

realistically many people who buy the companaion hunting dog and have that 1 dog that they had gotten into to extra things with....Don't look past their dog..and they want a pup from their dog...it is hard when you find out that your dog has a fault and like most start making excuses to try an justify going a head and doing something which other people don't agree with it is common of human nature to do this

we have people who sell american bred britts with black noses and justify it by saying well the AKC will alllow full registration and that what a new owner does with a pup bought from them is not their responsibilty..and the new owners go on to breed more black nosed american britts...end results they are selfish and do not care at all about the standards set for the American brittany

So as for a bad bite...Sure you may never produce a pup with a bad bite...but what about the grand progeny or great grand progeny can one think that far ahead..cause it will pop up somewhere down the line...So if it is minor that isnt going to cause any real health issues...think real hard about what will that dog put into a breeding to compensate....and I am speaking like a level bite something extremely minor that would pass in a show there better be something else phenominal in the field to more then make up....Cause again remmeber what you see WILL show up in some future breeding down the line in pups produced

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Sun May 11, 2008 1:00 am

I know I'll catch some heat from this,but my jewels has been in the fire more then once.Breeding to a Standard is one thing,but too many are trying to be Perfectionists.I realize that the dual purpose breeders have to stick more strictly to the standards,but do the gun doggers,hunters and trialers feel they are compelled to do the same?(so their dogs will be considred Proper?) A bad bite doesn't have Squat to do with the dog's Performance.How many on here have walked up on their dog pointing a grouse,woodcock,quail ,pheasant or any of the other gamebirds and your heart rate goes up as you start in for the flush,and then the bird walks out of the cover and lifts up your dogs lip to see if his teeth are Perfect,Get Real.Or how many has been in a trial where your dog has did Everything Right and looked Good doing it,and you know you're in Contention,but when the winners and placements are about to be announced the judge comes over and looks in your dog's mouth and informs you he had it Won,but he's disqualified because of a bad bite,Get Real.This game(for some) is a sport,hobby,and a Passion for seeing the dogs work and do what they were bred to do,then when that dog jacks up on point it all comes together! Good bite or Bad.
DGfavor,
How soon do you think you'll get another dog like that??? If I'd made your decision it would still be haunting me in my sleep.Yea I would've bred a good bitch to him for his Good Qualities.You or him may not have been considerd Proper afterwards,but that wouldn't have dimmed my smile any when going up to get any of his progeny's trophies at a trial.or shooting that last bird for your days limit over a Exceptional dog out of him.Sorry folks,that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Sun May 11, 2008 4:45 am

Any dog crowned Champion,any dog used for breeding, should conform to a standard. The bird might not look in his mouth, but the judge should!

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun May 11, 2008 6:06 am

Right on Janet. If the owner-handler aren't going to insist the dog meets it's breed standard then we should make the judges responsible. This is exactly the attitude that gets many of these faults spread through out the gene pool. When winning the games we play becomes more important than the breed itself we are in serious trouble.

Ezzy

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun May 11, 2008 6:19 am

Any dog crowned Champion,any dog used for breeding, should conform to a standard.

Really? What standard should an American Field Pointer conform to?? ...the AKC standard?? No thanks.

Our Champions are crowned based upon performance only.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Sun May 11, 2008 6:43 am

Ok, here's an idea, let's have the AKC ( or whatever registry you use) not even allow any dog to be registered until they have passed the conformation test.

Here's another~Let's have all of the conformation judges judge the FT's and Hunt Tests, and all of the field judges judge the shows. I think you would get some vastly different placements in most cases.

Sounds kind of stupid doesn't it? I think that a lot of field judges would have a hard time even telling you most breed standards, and most show judges would have a hard time telling you the standard for a gun dog. I believe that is probably why they are 2 different venues.

Some are blind to some faults, and that is human nature, and you're never going to change that.

With all of that said, no none of my dogs have bad bites, and I probably would not breed one if it did, but that may not be the deciding factor if other traits outweighed the bite issue. (and then, it would have a small bite issue)

Breeders need to be aware of this issue and others that crop in their chosen breed, and deal with those problems appropriately. ie. spay/neuter etc.

Doug Favor, I too would be having mixed feelings about neutering the dog that you did, and if it was me I probably wouldn't have done it.

I DO NOT think that more oversight, such as having FC or other similarly titled dogs pass a conformation test to get that title or win is a good idea. I think they call those dogs DC's.

In the end it's up to the people breeding the dogs and the people buying them. Do your homework!!

Doug

jessie · Post by **jessie** » Sun May 11, 2008 9:34 am

Ross thank you for bringing just a moment of clarity to the subject. An AKC pointer? I can't stand the thought.........

Post by **Sharon** » Sun May 11, 2008 4:50 pm

Absolutely . Well said Ross.

This little girl wouldn't pass any conformation test and I won't be breeding her but she's a firecracker in the AFTCA trials. She's got everything she needs.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun May 11, 2008 6:04 pm

Ross,

You know the AKC does not have any standards. Its the breeders who belong to the National Club who sets the standards. Since the pointers do not have a written standard it makes it easy to say you are only breeding on performance but you know that isn't completely true either. The main difference is that most breeds have a standard that acts as a guideline and has been agreed to by a majority of the breeders with many of them dating back to the European standard. Its kind of nice to have since it helps keep the breeds looking and acting like they are supposed to.

Ezzy

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun May 11, 2008 6:27 pm

I understand that but the field people left that years ago and you are talking to seperate breeds as of now for all practical purposes. The pointers and the English setters were the first breeds to split from the standard and since then you are seeing many others drifting apart too. Like I have said before when you have people breeding for a single purpose the breed is going to suffer. Doesn't matter what the purpose is whether strictly show or strictly field.

Ezzy

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun May 11, 2008 7:58 pm

Its kind of nice to have since it helps keep the breeds looking and acting like they are supposed to.

Ezzy, IMO that's the problem ...it doesn't work! Over time, dogs have morphed into AKC Show giants!

The pointers and the English setters were the first breeds to split from the standard and since then you are seeing many others drifting apart too.

Wow, that's backwards!! The American Field was around long before the AKC, so who split from whom????

Like I have said before when you have people breeding for a single purpose the breed is going to suffer. Doesn't matter what the purpose is whether strictly show or strictly field.

I disagree with this as well. The American Field Pointers and Setters have been breeding based upon performance for 135 years and the dogs continue to improve generation after generation. While the AKC versions of the Pointer and Setter are RIDICULOUS looking non-functioning oafs.

Ted,

There is NO conformation standard for FDSB Pointers. The AKC standard is meaningless to us. It has no relevance whatsoever.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun May 11, 2008 8:14 pm

Wow, that's backwards!! The American Field was around long before the AKC, so who split from whom????

As I said AKC does not have a standard. The breed club is the one with the standard. So whether AKC is younger or older doesn't really matter.

There is NO conformation standard for FDSB Pointers. The AKC standard is meaningless to us. It has no relevance whatsoever.

I think thats what I said or at least thats what I meant when I said the field dogs have long since split and are really a different breed.

I'm not argueing with youbut just explaining what has happened.

Over time, dogs have morphed into AKC Show giants!

Yep, but that is what happens when people breed for one aspect and not the good of the breed. And the people you should have been helping to keep the breed right just left and did their own thing too. Bob Wehle came along and tried to help get the field dogs back into some order and has been at least partially successful in typing them up a little..

Ezzy

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun May 11, 2008 8:44 pm

Yep, but that is what happens when people breed for one aspect and not the good of the breed.

Nope, that's what happens when people breed for the show ring. Breeding for performance has NOT ruined any sporting breeds. Breeding for anything other than performance is what ruins sporting breeds.

The breed club is the one with the standard.

The Pointer breed club? What is that??

The American Field does not recognize the Pointer Breed Club. That's an AKC thing.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sun May 11, 2008 10:01 pm

Breeding for performance has NOT ruined any sporting breeds.

Of course, breeding for a certain look in the performance venue never occurs either...ahem, ahem, cough, cough, couBSgh!

Was lining up a breeding for a fellars bitch the other day when he just finally decided he couldn't breed to a stud with a blaze - gack! The horror!! Could you imagine a dog with a blaze ever finding a bird - probably trip all over itself trying to get it done! I was polite I promise! :roll:

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun May 11, 2008 10:09 pm

Of course, breeding for a certain look in the performance venue never occurs either...ahem, ahem, cough, cough, couBSgh!

Gotta have some way to seperate 'em. Far cry from the breed ring. :roll:

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sun May 11, 2008 11:08 pm

IMO Ross it's no different judging based on looks in one venue vs. the other. In my experience, performance usually separates 'em thankfully...if miraculously you've got a couple equal, I say run 'em again until you get a performance winner - let the game separate 'em not the uniform!!

I think we need to be cautious poking fun at the show ring for breeding and rewarding certain looks and features when the same thing occurs in the trial world (we can't deny it man!

).

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Mon May 12, 2008 1:17 am

It's important that those breeding dogs try their hardest to ensure the puppy owner is going to have a sound, typical representative of its breed.
IMO those that rail against soundness and type probably do so for a reason - they don't have it in their dogs, or they can't actually see that they
don't have it.
None of us have perfect dogs but if they have a serious fault like over or undershot or wry jaw (or badly out at elbow, badly cow hocked etc) then be happy with what you can do with your dog but don't pass the fault on.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon May 12, 2008 4:25 am

I think we need to be cautious poking fun at the show ring for breeding and rewarding certain looks and features when the same thing occurs in the trial world (we can't deny it man! ).

Who's "poking fun"?? I don't think there is anything funny about what the breed ring has done to several breeds of dogs. If you consider the breed ring and field trialing to have had the "same" effect........ then I can't even comment further.

IMO those that rail against soundness and type probably do so for a reason - they don't have it in their dogs, or they can't actually see that they don't have it.

I love that argument. Been hearing it since the 70s.

Meanwhile, I have seen little to no improvement in the GSP "Show" bred dogs in the field. They are worse today then they were 25 years ago. There are obvious exceptions, but it was much easier to find a "Show" bred shorthair that would hunt in the late 70s and early 80s than it is today.

IMO performance ensures soundness... Wow, this isn't rocket science.

BTW, nothing against the Show folks. It's a dog game and many love it just like any other dog game. But lets be honest about what the breed ring produces. It ain't bird dogs.

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Mon May 12, 2008 5:31 am

.

None of us have perfect dogs but if they have a serious fault like over or undershot or wry jaw (or badly out at elbow, badly cow hocked etc) then be happy with what you can do with your dog but don't pass the fault on.

This is not about FDSB vs AKC. This is not about show vs field. This is about ethical breeding practices.

Seems to me the ones doing all the crying are the ones who bought and own dogs with faults.

solon · Post by **solon** » Mon May 12, 2008 5:45 am

Dr. Jerold Bell, the canine geneticist, recommends that, if you have an outstanding dog with a fault in a well organized breeding program, breed it and keep progeny from that dog without the fault. If the fault is a disease gene for which there is a DNA test, then screen the progeny and keep only those that are not carriers. If there is no direct DNA test for the fault, then your unaffected progeny still may be carriers, so you have to follow up with extensive progeny analysis of their progenyto identify carriers. This can be a less than perfect approach. If you are a large scale breeder, you could test breed your F1 progeny to a known carrier of the fault and identify those that do and do not produce the trait. You then need to cull the known carriers that you have identified by this method. This is expensive and time consuming carrying out experimental breedings, but it is a way to propagate highly desireable genes and get rid of something undesireable. However, the main point is to preserve the very good genetic traits that made your original animal outstanding and try to weed out the fault.

Solon

markj · Post by **markj** » Mon May 12, 2008 6:27 am

I for one like the DC ideal and commend those that breed for this. Not many do so, I always wondered why this is? I know it is costly but it may be better for the breed and the future of the breed.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Mon May 12, 2008 6:57 am

the reality is that few truly breed to the dual dog in most breeds. GSP breeders are either trialers, hunters, or conformation folk. One of the best show handlers and breeders of literally hundreds of show GSPs made the statement, "I don't care if my dogs will point birds, I breed to finish show champions". Where trialers may tend to breed for performance and to an extent ignore looks, the trialers trial bred dogs have a far better chance of becoming duals that the pure show bred dogs. I can name ONE show bred dog in Texas who really had a chance to finish as a dual, and they put him down cause he was as mean as they come and attacked another of the owner's dogs. Be assured, trialers are very picky about looks of dogs in most cases. But, show people typically breed purely based on conformation and not field abilities at least in GSPs. I've judged few hunting tests, but have seen hundreds of braces and have only seen a couple show dogs that would even be effective hunting companions.

C'mon Yawallac, those fine AKC Pointers are fine animals!!

I do find it funny that a person feels taken advantage of by a trialer when he bought a dog sight unseen from someone and the dog ends up gun shy. Maybe the dog was young enough and hadn't been introduced to the gun. Maybe he took a 12 month old dog hunting with his 4 buddies and their 4 12 gauges and they blasted away over the dog and ruined him. A lot of scenarios, might not have been the seller of the dog at all. It's easy to blame others for your own mistakes. Maybe he should have had the common sense to have the guy work the dog for him, have him kill some birds over the dog, at least shoot the blank gun over the dog, see him run and work a field. Big investment to go into blindly imho.

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon May 12, 2008 7:14 am

Good post Solon. Someone finally answered the question...6 pgs later

Is there a prize?

markj · Post by **markj** » Mon May 12, 2008 7:29 am

Just cant leave it alone tru?

We were in a parking lot, I knew he was a good trial guyand took him at his word and handshake. I know how to introduce a dog to the gun am doing one soon here. Hadshorthairs since the 70s springers before tat, been hunting since 64 have had a few nice dogs in my time. Bloodline was good, looked good as a 5 month old, was he after a "the youngest broke dog" thing? or was he just a soft dog? Come around and he willshy away from you, seems he is only non shy around me. I did get to shoot birds over him last season so I feel I got him in a place he can trust me and hunt for me. I have broke 2 dogs of gun shy sofar now. Yep I shoulda held off, shoulda went to his place some 500 miles away, shoulda coulda. Now I just dont trust everyone which is against my grain. I would like to belive I can trust a mans word, too bad I cant. The world is a changing and it isnt for the better.

As for the Dc? Some breed for it, Rugerheim is one Odysey another,Gambls Fritz one I have seen up close and liked enough to get a pup from.

SFK · Post by **SFK** » Mon May 12, 2008 7:35 am

I’m a hunter and performance guy so I am hearin’ the performance folks as I am one too. I don’t show or have any interest in showin’ my dogs. I think as good responsible breeders, the performance folks need to take into consideration confirmation. I’m not necessarily talking about a breed standard or duels but good functioning animal make up. A bad bite is not a good functioning animal make up BTW. If we don’t, we are just as bad as the show people who breed dogs that can’t hunt. You can try to sell to yourself and everyone else that it doesn’t make a difference but it does. You are correct that it doesn’t affect the hunting ability but it does in the overall health of the animal (which can translate to the field in severe cases). Do you folks want to pay for the surgery on a pup that has a bite so bad it can’t eat correctly? To you want your kennel’s reputation represented by that pup? Have we become that greedy for a blue ribbon? Not me – but I’ve seen it and it’s not pretty. Why don’t we just ovoid that situation totally before it gets to that point is what I’m trying to say. Everything has consequence. Someone needs to make a stand.

I understand we need to look at the entire picture and no animal is perfect (breeding is kind of an art form) and if we have a fine hunter we may want to propagate them and overlook a bite issue. I also saying I would possibly breed a dog that has a bad bite but it would come after quite a bit of consideration and planning. What is bothering me here on this thread is it is sounding like some of you don’t even consider bite when breeding and that it is no big deal. Maybe and I hope that I am misreading.

Yes great post solon! That's what I'm saying!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon May 12, 2008 8:01 am

I think as good responsible breeders, the performance folks need to take into consideration confirmation. I’m not necessarily talking about a breed standard or duels but good functioning animal make up.

These are the comments that are so frustrating to me. Of course performance breeders consider conformation. WE HAVE TO!!! ...or our dogs won't win!! All of the Pointer breeders that I respect and admire consider how the dog is built in their breeding decisions.

Check this out, I picked up a couple of GORGEOUS frozen semen Rail Dancer pups from Gene Casale a couple of months ago for a client who had purchased them. Those two year old prospects were absolutely stunning!! Incredible noses, beautiful style going and on point, biddable, pretty much everything that I look for in a Pointer. I asked Gene why he was selling them and he said because they had bad bites. That never would have happened 20 years ago. And he is not the only well known Pointer breeder that now actually cares about bites. It has changed a lot ...and for the better IMO.

My point in this thread is that if the only criteria to "award" is based upon performance, than it is much less likely the breed will suffer. Pointer breeders self regulate the conformation and honestly, it is VERY unlikely that a dog could win the AMES three hour National Championship with less than stellar conformation.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Mon May 12, 2008 8:53 am

Ross, you are 100% correct. Any dog that can go at that pace for an hour, forget 3 hours, and do it year after year, cannot be put together incorrectly. It's the lumbering show dogs that can't finish a 20 minute JH event that are the problem. If you consider the lines that most winning trial dogs of most all breeds have in their pedigree, you will find national champions, FCs, hour winners. Hour dogs produce hour dogs. Thirty minute trial winners do not produce hour dogs. Show dogs, with no field titles in their pedigree, meaning FC, NFC, and AFC, do not produce winners, dogs with heart, or necessarily dogs that are functional hunting dogs.

If people are gonna make comments about proper conformation, and try to show their expertise, at least spell it correctly.

SFK · Post by **SFK** » Mon May 12, 2008 9:04 am

Sorry Yawallac not trying to frustrate anyone - just hadn’t heard anyone state that point outright yet. And you’re right on – if we don’t have good confirmation our dogs aren’t winning.

Yawallac wrote:My point in this thread is that if the only criteria to "award" is based upon performance, than it is much less likely the breed will suffer. Pointer breeders self regulate the conformation and honestly, it is VERY unlikely that a dog could win the AMES three hour National Championship with less than stellar conformation.

I agree with ya that if only had one way of “awarding” performance would be the way to go and why I choose performance games to compete in. Here’s the problem we need to keep in mind, a dog with a bad bite or Cryptorchidism (one or both testicles not descending) can still win. I saying we as breeders need to take some of those things into account also even though we may not be directly rewarded for it. If we don’t, we’re going to have issues down the road. Like you said, it is getting much better than years past.

Blake - can’t you see I’m agreeing with you? I’m not a show guy. I apologize for the misspelling and any others I may make in advance. :roll:

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Mon May 12, 2008 11:15 am

If you consider the breed ring and field trialing to have had the "same" effect

I'm saying that breeding for a certain look (aka style) has the same detrimental effect in any venue...and it occurs in both the show and trial games.

Can you deny that many field trialers breed for a certain look?

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon May 12, 2008 11:42 am

I'm saying that breeding for a certain look (aka style) has the same detrimental effect in any venue...

Wrong.

Can you deny that many field trialers breed for a certain look?

Of course we do, but your assertion comparing the "detrimental effects" of Show breeding to Field breeding is utterly ridiculous.

It's easy to show the negative effects that the Show breeders have had on Pointers, Setters, Weims, Gordons, Irish, etc. Show me the same negative effects that the Field Trial breeders have caused. Pointers of today are FAR superior to Pointers from 25 years ago. No comparison ...and they have more style. THE SAME CAN NOT BE SAID FOR SHOW DOGS IN THE FIELD!!!!

You are so far out there with this that you must just be trying to bait an argument. You can not possibly believe what you are writing.... Can you?? Naw.... You're just joking. That's cool, I get it. Pretty funny man. Nice try. You had me going there for a minute!!

BTW, I love your avatar!! That's awesome!!

sharptailhunter · Post by **sharptailhunter** » Mon May 12, 2008 1:03 pm

Wow, this post is a hot one, eh!

Yawallac wrote: Pointers of today are FAR superior to Pointers from 25 years ago. No comparison ...and they have more style.

Just exactly how are you comparing said pointers? Do you have any objective data? Are you solely using FT wins/placements as your criteria? How large is your sample? It's hard to give any credit to anecdotal statements such as yours.

Nonetheless this has been an interesting post.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon May 12, 2008 2:32 pm

This is a topic that won't be solved on here as there is only a few people willing to discuss the subject with an open mind. Ross is convinced that pointers are better than ever and they have no standard. He may be right but my question would be what does a pointer look like and they are better at what?

I have a pointer that is a great dog. He is small and spotted with a short tail and rather light feathering. Since there is no standard he will fit into anyones breeding program since he is a great performer and looks have nothing to do with breeding.

What is actually being said is you do not need a standard that covers physical makeup because all we are concerned with is what looks and performs well in our trials.

What I was trying to say is every breed has a standard look about them. Other wise we wouldn't have different breeds. And everyone on this board knows what breed they have and can explain what they are supposed to look like. Gentlemen, that is a standard whether written or not.

Then the arguement that the show people have ruined the breeds and not us. Proof is that show dogs can't compete in a trial with a trial dog. But then again, the trial dog can't compete in the show ring with the show dog. Luckily, in most breeds either type dog can still hunt and if we cross the two types we may have the best chance of producing dogs that still perform as the breed was intended.

Strange as it may seem to most of you, dogs were bred to hunt with a person on foot, first for food and in later years for sport. There was never a breed that was developed to see how far or how fast they could run to find a bird. Our trial dogs of today that are bred for that, have been bred strictly to satisfy our needs to win in a man made sport where we set the rules and not to fill a game bag. Luckily we still have a few areas in this country where that big running dog is an asset and is beautiful to watch and provides great sport when you are mounted on a horse and still have birds. Many more of us are religated to the small fields and fence lines like the country in most of Europe, so the continental breeds have become popular here because they filled our needs better than the pointer that had been bred to cover bigger areas like the southern plantations. Each of these breeds had a standard and once the sponsoring club in this country accepted the standard they issued it to AKC and they have been shown in their sanctioned shows ever since.

Since we have a few show people who breed only for physical makeup just like we have a few field trial people who breed only for trial performance we have seen the contravercy of both groups blaiming the other for ruining the breed when in actuality neither have ruined it but have just not had the forsight to always breed for the overall quality of the breed to perform at its intended level.

With most of the people on this board being interested in trials, we are going to hear how the show breeders have ruined the breed and that just isn't quite accurate. I can show you several pics here on this board of field trial dogs that bear little resemblence to the breed standards other than color. Size or type make little difference as long as the dog can run. I won't argue that those dogs are not good pointers but they sure aren't good represenatives of their breed. That is not the way it is supposed to be if you are interested in improving your favorite breed.

If perforance is the only criteria for determining a good dog from a poor one then lets do away with breeds. There would still be a problem since someone has to determine what is the desired performance, so of course, the arguement would continue. Ross your arguement is that AA pointing dog is the ultimate in dogs. Blake agrees. Janet, Doug Favor, Myself do not necessarily agree since we see other qualities that are important including diffent breeds that have been bred to perform at a different level. I love Pointers, GSPs, Setters, Vizslas, and Brits but I have no desire to see them all look and act alike in the field. I want them to look different, hunt different, and act different. To continue to have that we have to have standards for both type and performance and we all need to do our best to breed the best animal we can in all areas.

Ezzy

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon May 12, 2008 2:53 pm

Ross your arguement is that AA pointing dog is the ultimate in dogs.

Ezzy,

Actually I prefer Shooting Dogs.

markj · Post by **markj** » Mon May 12, 2008 3:30 pm

You must have a lot of dogs

shoot the dog?

Watch out, that is close to culling

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon May 12, 2008 3:36 pm

I agree Ross.

Ezzy

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Mon May 12, 2008 4:23 pm

Here I go.

Pointers and Setters, from the get go, were always big running dogs. The GSP, GWP, VIZSLA, BRITTNEY, to name a few, in years back were bred to be foot hunting dogs. Today, some of the trial bred GSP, GWP, VIZSLA, BRITTNEY. etc, can compete in some pretty big running trials. How did this come about? Well, my fix on how is ..... Run had to be bred into the foot hunting dogs of past and that was done with the help of breeding to the Pointer. Take a GOOD look at some of the trial GSP's. They sure are Pointer in type. Shave some of the hair off the trial GWPs and what do you see. Alot of white and Pointer in type. As for the Vizsla. White feet and white chests. Now look at the Brittney. The are getting taller and snippy nosed, much like the Setter.

There has always been the trialer who visioned to win the big one with a dog other then a Pointer or Setter.

Because some have refused to follow a standard the looks and close to medium range of our foot hunting dogs have changed through the years. When the hunter goes to buy a hunting dog today, he can't be sure if it will be more dog then he can handle because of the big run bred into the trial dog of today.. Titles sell puppies!

There is not much you can breed into the Pointer or Setter to make it better, but the trialer sure as #### changed some of our foot hunting dogs into, hyper, big running trial dogs.

Knock this post all you want but anyone who has eyes can see the difference between then and now. This didn't come about from the show people, it was created by the trialer who wanted to win at any cost with an off breed dog.. ( other then a Pointer/Setter.)

Yesterday it was to breed to big running dogs even if it was a different breed, today it's to breed a dog with a bad bite because it wins.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon May 12, 2008 5:12 pm

If you shaved your avatar dog it would look just like a Pointer!!

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Mon May 12, 2008 5:54 pm

Well now, I consider that a compliment since I think the Pointer is the Cadillac of birddogs. Had them for about 40 years. Changed breeds because I got too old to chase after them.

That dog on my avatar hunts as hard as a Pointer, finds as many, if not more birds then a Pointer, has the style of a Pointer, and covers ground at a pace, me as a foot hunter, can handle. No! He has no Pointer blood in him. He is all wirehair because I try to keep my breeding program clean!!! Just goes to show, you don't have to mess around to get it all. Good looks, ability, style, excellent coat, great conformation and good teeth.

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Mon May 12, 2008 6:29 pm

If he shaved his dog it wouldn't look like it had a bulldogs front or elbows sticking out, something I see
often in photos of "performance" Pointers Yawallac.
What is "performance" anyway. To most it is a reliable hunting companion they take pride in, to others it is a dog that they can place highly in NAVHDA type tests, to others a dog that does well in foot hunting trials, and to others a dog that does well in horse back trials.

This is not about FDSB vs AKC. This is not about show vs field. This is about ethical breeding practices.

This statement said it all. I find it quite odd that a topic to do with an inherent unsoundness becomes changed to show vs field, and then the whining starts about show dogs and show poeple when the topic is about BAD BITES.

Does make me wonder.

jakemaster · Post by **jakemaster** » Mon May 12, 2008 7:14 pm

What Jazzy got you to change Avatar??????????

Yawallac whats with the short tail???

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon May 12, 2008 7:50 pm

That's my new pup Rocky!

jakemaster · Post by **jakemaster** » Mon May 12, 2008 7:54 pm

He is almost as good lookking as Jazzy. Just couldnt wait for a GSP pup could you.