Whats the DIfference

snips · Post by **snips** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:20 am

I don`t know Marg.....You never been to Alabama.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:27 am

All I'm hearing here is that the GSP has several lines of breeding, the same as every other breed of dog or even wild animals and birds from different location around the country. The Brit was mentioned and the difference in the French and American bred dogs. There is some truth to that because the Brit in this country was being bred to a stanard that was developed here and the dogs still in France weren't. The Brits I see coming from France are almost identical to what came 50 years ago. Completely different lines of pointers and setters as well as every other breed have been bred in this country as well as Europe. Does that make them a different breed? Don't think so, not till the dogs become so widely seperated in their looks and abilities that you can no longer reconize them as the same breed. American and English Cocker as an example.

Today this is a moot point to argue since the true test of seperation would be DNA testing. When they get so seperated that the DNA is completely different then we can say it is a seperate breed and not just a different line of the same breed.

Ezzy

Grey Ghost · Post by **Grey Ghost** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:31 am

DK Dogs wrote:Yes they both have fur and four legs but are not the same.

Well there you have it folks. The similarities end at fur and four legs. No more alike than, oh say, polar bears and aardvarks. Different breeds? Heck, they're different species.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:11 am

The way I see it is, we have the specific bloodlines here today that are bred for versatility, Field Trials, foot hunting. (oh and can`t forget show, or can we). Not that much different from the German bloodlines that were bred for hog hunting, or close working on birds, or bigger runners for the bean fields, or bloodtrailing, ect...

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:56 am

Well, here's my 2 cents on this topic on the general. I can't say much on the difference between GSP's and DK, as I have not met enough DK's. I would however like to point out the power of selective breeding to change many characteristics that you may NOT be selecting for OR against.
This link *** it's a PDF *** has one of the many articles on the farm-fox experiment.
www.floridalupine.org/ publications/PDF/trut-fox-study.pdf

This experiment took "wild" silver foxes and selected for tameness only. Tameness was classified into I, II, III, and IE with IE being the most tame. (read paper for details If you want them)

"They start displaying this kind of behavior before they are one month old. [Tesing is conducted until 6 months of age] By the tenth generation, 18 percent of fox pups were elite; by the 20th, the figure had reached 35 percent. Today elite foxes make up 70 to 80 percent of our experimentally selected population. "

Suprisingly alot of other changes showed up, including color, ear and tail morphology and positioning, size, and fur length (some even with curly coats).

Many of todays GSP's would easily go back 10 generation before showing the "original german" lines.

As I said, I can't make a clear decision on the difference, but the effects of selective breeding are beyond what you think you select for. So if you don't select for the exact same things the breed was originally bred for, you should expect some changes. Maybe for the good, as in breeding away from intense agression in some breeds, maybe not, as in breeding strictly for show and not original hunting abilities in many breeds. Those are the opinions that cause the disagreements. That is -- "what should the breed be?" Breeders disagree and hunters, pet-owners, buyers all disagree too.
So look for what you want from a breeder who breeds what you want, and you are most likely to get what you want.

Laurie

Dave Gowdey · Post by **Dave Gowdey** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:18 am

Byedog,

If my response surprised you, I suspect you may be fairly new to the breed. The battle between the traditional GSP folks and the horseback trial folks is as bitter as anything gets in the dog world, and the war has been raging since the 1970s. A LOT of old time GSP folks feel exactly the way I do, which is one of the reasons why NAVHDA now has far more GSP owners as members than the GSPCA.

To address your point. Yes, as with any generalizations, there are certainly exceptions. However, any breeder understands that expressed characteristics are the results of probabilities and playing the odds. Any time you are putting two genetic packages together, you are trying as much as possible to stack the odds in your favor of getting the outcomes you want. The triallers and the traditionalists are stacking the odds in two very different ways.

There are certainly trial dogs that are throwbacks to the traditional style dogs. And there are some traditional dogs that will make quarter mile casts. However, these are the distinct minority. Just as while it's possible to throw craps on the come out ten times in a row - that's not the smart bet.

If you want a dog that will make quarter mile casts - the odds are much more in your favor if you choose a dog from big running trial stock. However, that dog will almost certainly not be a good, useful companion in a duck blind. Similarly, if you want a medium range, versatile, dog - the odds are much more in your favor if you buy from a breeder of traditional style dogs. However, that dog will be unlikely to make quarter mile casts. Generalizations don't tell you the specific characteristics any dog will have - they just refer to the odds of them having those characteristics.

For those who talk about the impact of selective breeding - there is no doubt that this is true. However, it also really isn't that important. You can certainly make fairly radical changes in a breed through selective breeding and inbreeding. However, these changes are usually ephemeral if you breed within the breed, without outcrossing. While those changes may take decades to make and fix, unless they are maintained through selective breeding they will be washed out in the general breed in fairly short order.

One of the strengths of the GSP over the years has been that its genetic makeup has been robust. Despite all of the tinkering and changes - the breed tends to revert to its original type fairly quickly. Those old Germans did a heck of a job when they created the genetic blueprint for the breed - it's remarkably stable. This is one of the really annoying problems that folks trying to make radical changes to the breed have found. This is why some famous trial breeders resorted to almost ridiculously close inbreeding, and one of the reasons that some trial breeders have secretly resorted to outcrossing to pointers. In fact one of the arguments for believing that crossbreeding in trial GSPs was very widespread was the fact that it was so difficult, if not impossible, to reliably get the outcomes these folks wanted with the genetic package that those old Germans put in the DK.

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:47 pm

this is interesting i didn't realize that gsp and dk had this little thing between them. and the trial dogs verses hunting dogs, well that's been going on for years in all breeds. i found this in gun dogs afield introduction written by ray p. holland in 1942.
" You will find games hunters who belittle field trials and who claim that field-trial dogs are not bird dogs, but just racings dogs, too fast for any practical use before the gun."
do any of you believe that trial dogs can't be used for foot hunting?

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:22 pm

Yes I have hunted feild trial dogs against our old brits that were just 3 month hunting dogs and our brits came out on top every time. When you shoot a pheasant and dopnt make a clean kill u want your dog on that birds arse as soon as it hits the ground or else you will never get it. Feild trial dogs just cant do that. THey are broke to wing and shot and that is way too long of a time for a bird(s) to get away. This is just pheasants not quail or anything.

But I also understand that in a trial our old brits wouldnt have stood a chance.

I am sure you could take a dog out of trial lines and use him as a bird dog if you were to raise him up in that kind of enviroment. BUt it is my opinion that you cannot take a trial dog and put him in the feild. JMO dont flame me for it.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:03 pm

Dave Gowdey wrote:

If my response surprised you, I suspect you may be fairly new to the breed. The battle between the traditional GSP folks and the horseback trial folks is as bitter as anything gets in the dog world, and the war has been raging since the 1970s. A LOT of old time GSP folks feel exactly the way I do, which is one of the reasons why NAVHDA now has far more GSP owners as members than the GSPCA.

Dave,

Do you have any statictics to back up your claims?

NAVHDA's membership has been hanging in the 4500 range for quite a while.

Last year there were approx. 650 individual GSPs run in NAVHDA events nationwide. This includes all levels and all chapter tests plus the Invitational.

At the 2004 GSPCA national championship, there were approx 228 different GSPs entered. In one event we had 1/3rd as many dogs as NAVHDA tested in an entire year in both the US and Canada.

Last year there were 94 FC titles awarded to GSPs; the most of ANY sporting breeding including Labs. Those 94 FCs were 22% of the FC titles awarded to all pointing breeds.

There were almost 37,000 entries for individual runs in AKC pointing breed field trials last year. If you use the same 22% number as above, that suggests there were over 8000 GSP entries in AKC field trials last year. That's a HUGE number of people interested in the sport.

The largest growing segment of AKC performance events is AKC walking field trials. So much so, that the GSPCA created a national amateur walking championship. This event held in central Wisconsin and not connected to another trial, drew 45 starters from as far away as New Jersey, Florida, Arizona and Alberta, Canada.

The biggest problem we have in the sport right now is handling the demand for entries into trials. 10 years ago a 150 entry trial was a big deal. We now have many trials over 200 and a number of trials over 300 entries in a weekend.

I'm not sure how comparing NAVHDA membership (a multi-breed training/testing organization) to the GSPCA tells anyone anything. NAVHDA almost forces all participants to become a member. The only GSPCA event that requires membership is the futurity.

Go to any AKC field trial event in the upper midwest (the "heart of NAVHDA") and I'll show you lots of folks who used to run NAVHDA and now run AKC trial events. Its pretty common to find a FC in the pedigree of most NAVHDA dogs; field trials are still the proving grounds of many of the dogs bred to produce NAVHDA, hunt test and NSTRA GSPs.

If I'm wrong, I'd love to hear how. Show me some numbers that suggest otherwise.

JMO,
Dave

ByeDog · Post by **ByeDog** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:23 pm

Ryan wrote: BUt it is my opinion that you cannot take a trial dog and put him in the feild. JMO dont flame me for it.

No flaming, but someone forgot to tell a bunch of trial dogs that you cannot hunt with them. I wouldn't own a dog I couldn't hunt with and my current young dog has done well both hunting and trialing.

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:48 pm

Our Trial dogs hunt five days a week here and do real well at it too. PRetty much hurts them in the trial game but what can ya do....I still do love the sport, or game should I say. It has been years since I have seen sportsmanship across the board at a trial.

We all have our likes....I dont have a use for a close working dog out here, where as it would take mine quite a while to slow down and hunt close in the grouse woods. This includes our Dk's.

I would say our best DK's faults are is she worls too fast on her blood traking. But it is not something I consider do or die. We do enjoy tracking wounded deer for unlucky hunters though.

There is a vast differnece between the breeds in many aspects. THen again I would have to say there are some similarities in some breeders dogs.

Cindy, yes you are one of them that keeps the versatility, I didnt mean you personally when I was stereotyping. I meant no offense.

Phil

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:54 pm

Sure I am positive that if you can raise a dog to both hunt and trail it would be great but we r getting a little off track with this subject.

tfbirddog2 · Post by **tfbirddog2** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:33 pm

It has been stated I think a few times DK's(English GSP) and GSP(common man).French Britt(French hold nose a little higher than just a britt)haha.Britt(common man).It also goes for GM's do you want camaro or firebird,both will get you a ticket doing 75 in a 55. Both breeds will find birds or trial but how much do you want to pay from what I can see.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:35 pm

So what you are saying is the only difference between a DK and a American GSP is the number of zeros.

Bird Dog 67 · Post by **Bird Dog 67** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:52 am

Discussion topics to avoid over dinner: Politics, religion, and now DK's vs. GSP's!!!!!!!

Awesome discussion. Probably the best I've seen on this board. I love it!

markj · Post by **markj** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:48 am

Well now, I have read all these posts and not one accuratly pinpoints any "genetic differences". Just the same jibber jabber I have heard for the last oh 30 years or so

I will say this, buy a gsp from a good breeder, train it in the fashion you wish to go and go with it, but please dont belittle this fine breed of dog by trying to convince anyone they are 2 separate breeds, when in fact they are the same but have been trained to do different things.

So, what do the facts (not ego) say about there actually being two different breeds?

I sure would like factual data that proves this, scientific data not the "my dog is great or better than yours" stuff. I will throw this out, my wife is german, from Heidleburg, she has a cousin that hunts, he says that the dogs they import to us are "culls" not good enough for germans

so who ya gonna belive? Talk is cheap, anyone can say something but this needs facts not speculations.

I see where one kennel is now only doing th dk thing, but I look at his peds and see a whole lot of dixielands rusty a trial dog

if ever there was one

this is funny.

My own dogs routinely sit with me in the duck blind, hunt upland birds, and have admirably tracked wounded big game
They have also killed coyotes and cats

Incidently, you use Versatile dogs to stalk deer, not run them.

I can add racoons, skunks, anything that walks runs flys or crawls can be hunted by GSPs as to testing? Sorry I work a job, have a place out in the county which takes a lot of work and my 2 kids so I dont have the time or resources but I buy my dogs from those that do "test" their dogs and have titles for this.

This arguement has been going on as long as trialers have run trials. It is even mentioned in a book I have from the 50s

so this "arguement" is gettin old .

I say why not take a DK tested dog and train him to trial, then take a ft pup and train it for Dk tests (but I hear cheating is going on in some of these tests like the NA)

everyone wants to have something "special" that nobody else has, tis human nature.

I do know of some trialers that hunt over their FT titled dogs, come on over and I will introduce you to a few

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:44 am

Mark,

We field trial and test our hunting dogs too. In fact few, if any, people on this board could say they hunt or see the amount of wild birds that my wife and I do. I am fortunate to live in a part of this country that affords me to do this.

You make some broad statements. like I have as well. I will touch on a few to start off......

Finding a good breeder and train the dog to do as you wish.........

Even though there are good breeders most breed for specifity. Some dogs just can't do what the original breed characteristics call for. I am guilty of this myself being a die hard field trial person. Before meeting my wife I have never hunted with a DK. Not saying mine cannot do it, but they were definetly not bred for it. When you start training a dog for a specific task, it quickly becomes apparant that breeding does make a difference. Retrieving is a perfect example.

It keeps being repeated in this thread to "just train for it". Well, if a dog's abilities and capabilities were just as simple as "training", then we wouldn't need different breeds at all. Any dog could be a duck dog, any dog could hunt grouse, any dog could win a field trial, and any dog could pass a test....all you would have to do is train it. But anyone who has trained a number of dogs knows....there is more to a dog than training.

Speculation is all you can get here.........

Look at many breeds imported to America, I dont want to start pulling breeds of bird dogs from a hat. Folks might think we are picking on them. Many have had the hunt, bird and prey drive bred out of them....So......

German Shepards.....Look at what the SHow breeders did to them....Check our site on the Vet section about hips and angulation!

As far as the Germans only selling the culls....well, if you can pick the culls from the best dogs at 8 weeks of age, then you are a better man than I am. There are numerous VGP Prize 1, IKP and KS titled German dogs here in the US. If those are the culls, then send me as many as you have!

As far as Rusty in pedigrees, if he is there, then the dog is not a DK.

We do trial at least one of our DKs (AKC and AF), we do have FT pups that go to NAVHDA homes. We get hunting dogs, Hunt Test dogs, FT dogs, show dogs and you-name-it in here to train. It very quickly becomes apparant that breeding makes a difference. It makes a huge difference. Until you have been in the position to hunt over and train a wide variety of types and bloodlines, you will never understand what is truth and what is hype.

Its annoying to see this posted all the time, but it's true...when the tailgate drops, the BS stops.

P&G

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:07 am

Dang it someone needs to tell my trial dogs they cant hunt anymore.

:roll:

Grey Ghost · Post by **Grey Ghost** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:05 pm

Grey Ghost wrote:
DK Dogs wrote:Yes they both have fur and four legs but are not the same.
Well there you have it folks. The similarities end at fur and four legs. No more alike than, oh say, polar bears and aardvarks. Different breeds? Heck, they're different species.

Dave,
Looking back at it, I have to appologize for the sarcasm. It was uncalled for.

-Bill

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:09 pm

Duane-

I'll say it. Your trial dogs cannot hunt anymore. A new law was passed in OK saying it violates fair chase. It is unfair to the rest to let them loose. (You will now have to sell them off cheap. I will buy.)

Have read this debate in its various forms about a million times. The one thing you can always tell is which are the people who have not tried field trialing, or hunt testing, or NAVHDA, or DK or DD, or spaniel or retriever trialing, or tried these things once or twice but never hard enough to succeed, because they are the people who are least likely to respect them or anything about them, but surely are happy to let you know those views.

There certainly are fair debates about holes in every one of these formats and the breeds that participate in them, that most people who have been involved with them are willing to discuss frankly. The people who have nothing good to say about one format or the other, are those who never did it but sure know alot about it anyway.

Bird Dog 67 · Post by **Bird Dog 67** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:21 pm

Have I mentioned how much I love this thread? :thumbleft:

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:38 pm

Mark,

"I see where one kennel is now only doing th dk thing, but I look at his peds and see a whole lot of dixielands rusty a trial dog if ever there was one this is funny."

This is not possible, well it is possible but the dogs could never be registered with the DKV. Therefor they would not be DK's, and the kennel you mentioned cannot only be doing the DK thing.

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:14 pm

John ya might buy em but not cheap

. Besides if a deal we are working goes through I may need em for guding with this fall anyway.

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:23 pm

Sorry QC, I see you already said what I did above. Missed that

Like already stated this topic has been around awhile, a probably continue to go around and around. Although we may never agree if they are to seperate breeds, I think most will agree that in the case of the American Trial GSP and the DK they are very different.

I have no doubt that trial dogs can hunt, and do it extremely well, but to think that 30 plus years of breeding to win Field Trials has not changed the end product, then I think you are kidding yourself. I am in no way saying one is better than the other, just different. It all depends on your likes/needs.

Like it or not the the GSP/DK was never intended to be a burd dawg, it is not a specialist like an EP , it is a versatile dog, period. Now in the US do to lack of interest in hunting fur/tracking or geographical reasons the breed is being taken in a different direction. If you like that direction or not it's up to you but it is still a different direction.

It's no different than breeding a GSP strictly as a retrieving (duck dog) and forgetting everything else, after 30 years ya the dogs produced may still point but they will not be the same as what you started with, you still changed the breed and it's purpose. Now you may like that retrieving GSP better than the original cause you only hunt ducks or there are no upland birds in you area or whatever, and thats fine but you could have saved youself alot of time and aggrivation if you just got a lab, cause it's a retieving specialist .

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:33 pm

Kevin wrote:

This is not possible, well it is possible but the dogs could never be registered with the DKV. Therefor they would not be DK's, and the kennel you mentioned cannot only be doing the DK thing.

Are you sure?

Are you REALLY sure?

Are you 100% sure?

You might want to consult with your fellow DK folks about this.

Dave

markj · Post by **markj** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:15 pm

In fact few, if any, people on this board could say they hunt or see the amount of wild birds that my wife and I do.

you missed my location or have never been to Iowa

that is funny statement, I have coveys (plural) of quail behind my house, a CRP field across the street full of pheasants (which I do not hunt but use for training). I have had a hege-haus bitch from germany, she could tell the diff between hens and roosters, made me a bunch of money in the field with that and I do miss her but my dogs I now own have the same "prey drive" as her, the rest is how you train the dog to use the natural abilities it is born with. Does this make any sense? Now I dont mean every gsp born will be able to achieve a title in any format, some cant cut it but does this mean the same for the hunting? I say no, in real life hunt situations it is you, the dog and the game, no judges so what you bring home is the final test.

Wuld I go to germany for another dog? no, too costly even with relatives, there is great blood here in the US, dogs that will do it all, it is bred into them and not an easy thing to breed out.

Retrieving is a perfect example.

Some train too much for this, my dogs retrieve natuarlly with little "training". Has anyone ever given the thought that some do not know how to train a dog? or bring out its natural ability?

Many have had the hunt, bird and prey drive bred out of them....So

This is where the breeder comes into play, in the 50s the cocker was the popular dog so everyone started breeding them, line bred, sis to bro stuff for color, what do we have now? A dog that is known for biting people , yes this can happen but is it? I dont see it as much with gsps altho I have seen several litters that just were not right. I think one out in westerne nebr was a daughter to dad breeding so yes breeding plays a very important part. We need to look at what the original breeders had in mind, a dog that would hunt anything and everything. In America some forms of hunting are not allowed so noone trains for this but I have seen guys call off or e collar dogs for chaseing fur, the drive is still there but dormant.

Genetically can you prove a difference? I have asked this of everyone that makes the statements you make, no body has yet to show me factual scientific data. Can you? I welcome it with open arms and a smile on my face.

From a web site promoting DKs

We started with the best foundation stock that we could find, from both American GSP and German GSP, (Deutsch Kurzhaar or DK) bloodlines, and have steadily built on and improved that original foundation through a carefully planned breeding program. We primarily emphasize controlled line breeding of our imported German dogs, but include an occasional out-crossing to renew vigor in the lines. The result of this program represents what we believe to be some of the finest versatile gun dogs available in America today.

They now only register DK not AKC as was before, how is this so?

Some German kennels have imported USA dogs to breed into their program, I wonder why is this?

Anyway, proof beyond any doubt will shut me up, anything else is lip service and talk is cheap

dont you sell pups for 1200?

Kurzhaar · Post by **Kurzhaar** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:35 pm

markj wrote:
In fact few, if any, people on this board could say they hunt or see the amount of wild birds that my wife and I do.
:
From a web site promoting DKs

We started with the best foundation stock that we could find, from both American GSP and German GSP, (Deutsch Kurzhaar or DK) bloodlines, and have steadily built on and improved that original foundation through a carefully planned breeding program. We primarily emphasize controlled line breeding of our imported German dogs, but include an occasional out-crossing to renew vigor in the lines. The result of this program represents what we believe to be some of the finest versatile gun dogs available in America today.

They now only register DK not AKC as was before, how is this so?

Some German kennels have imported USA dogs to breed into their program, I wonder why is this?

Anyway, proof beyond any doubt will shut me up, anything else is lip service and talk is cheap dont you sell pups for 1200?

Actually that kennel you quoted only raises DKs now as they have moved away from AKC registered dogs. They did not make AKC dogs in to DKs as that is not possible. Take the time to talk with the breeder, she will tell you her reasoning for switching. Her arguments are lucid and well founded.

As to Germans importing US dogs, the only way they can do it is to import DKs born in the USA. Can't infuse an AKC dog into the DKV.

Jim

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:25 pm

People in Germany breeding non DKV registered litters?

Marg

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:59 pm

Kurzhaar wrote:

Can't infuse an AKC dog into the DKV.

You sure about that?

So every dog in every DK pedigree is a DK?

There are NO DKs with American blood in them?

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:44 pm

Dave,

THERE CAN NOT BE ONE SINGLE AMERICAN GSP IN THE PEDIGREE ANYWHERE, IF THERE IS IT IS NOT A DK.

And yes, I'm sure.

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:52 pm

Mark,

If training is everything, would you like to get an EP out of FT stock to do a day old bloodtrack. Given enough prospects and enough time I'm sure it's possible, but don't you think a hound would have the slightest bit of an edge on the EP seing as it's been bred for that since it's existance.

or is it all still in the training.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:28 pm

Kevin wrote:

Dave,

THERE CAN NOT BE ONE SINGLE AMERICAN GSP IN THE PEDIGREE ANYWHERE, IF THERE IS IT IS NOT A DK.

And yes, I'm sure.

You sound pretty sure.

Wanna put your money where you mouth is? How about a brand new TriTronics Pro 500 G2 collar to whoever is right?

Naw, I can't do this! It's like taking candy from a baby! It's just TOO easy

Some of you DK folks follow the "party line" a bit too well. Remember this Kevin, for every rule there is an exception.

Kevin,

Who is the first VC/KS/MH out there. Find that dog, and her pedigree and work backwords. Make sure you have a 5 generation pedigree.

I'd like my collar in black. I'll send you my shipping address once you report back.

Kevin, I'm not picking on you. Its just my academic background is in history. One of the first lessons in being a historian is to never claim absolutes unless you know the other party's source data. Some lessons are expensive to learn.

All in good fun,
Dave

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:06 pm

This has been a good discussion. I hope everyone can keep it between the ditches.

Best,

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:03 pm

Im with Greg this is a good discusion and it needs to be cooled down here all I am hereing about is pedigrees of DK's I wanna know whats the difference between the two if there is any.

Kurzhaar · Post by **Kurzhaar** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:11 pm

Dave Quindt wrote:Kurzhaar wrote:

Can't infuse an AKC dog into the DKV.
You sure about that?

So every dog in every DK pedigree is a DK?

There are NO DKs with American blood in them?

Dave:

There are a limited few that were allowed in the DKV stud book in the mid 1990's when the NADKC was starting out. After those few the studbook was closed and the infusion of non-DKs is no more. So there is no "Dirty little secret", the purpose was well discussed and understood.

Jim

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:47 pm

Ryan wrote:Im with Greg this is a good discusion and it needs to be cooled down here all I am hereing about is pedigrees of DK's I wanna know whats the difference between the two if there is any.

About the difference: they are in different registries that don't recognize each other. More than that, I cannot say.

As for my previous post: I was speaking as the moderator of the forum. The topic isn't out of hand, but it seems to be ready to get that way. I hope it'll stay on topic, positive and factual.

Best to all,

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:56 pm

Mark,

I did see where you are from, I am not saying we have more birds than you, just that most cannot get in the field as much as we do, due to work, family and lifestyle. All of which you claimed held your dogs back from titles.

You apparently think you know me or my dogs. No, I dont sell pups for 1200, and if I did what would it matter.

Furthermore, I never said trial dogs couldn't be hunted. On the contrary in fact, I did say we hunt all of our competition dogs, quite hard in fact.

Genetics are another discussion entirely. The question could be turned around and asked, Can you prove geneticlly the the GSP is the same as the DK? Which also brings in the arguement of crossbreeding in this country.

Which is also the reason why this shouldn't go any further. IT would have been nice to civilly debate this issue, but it really means nothing, just the same old arguement.

I will keep my DK's apart from my Trial GSP's, as they should stay. THere are a select few that can do both on both sides of the fence.

I do enjoy all breeds of dogs and love to get to watch them hunt or compete (although some will put you to sleep). I invite just about everyone to come out and hunt 3 species of wild birds with us, and you are welcome as well. BTW, we just secured a 34 square mile ranch in Texas!

Phil
REO

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:28 am

Ryan, the difference I have seen between the 2 is this, and this is limited to the few German dogs I have trained. Both German and American GSP`s vary in bloodlines of course, but the German dogs I have worked hunt at a somewhat closer range, like our Grouse dog here, some carry their head lower and point with a lower head. Their tracking instincts and prey drive may be sharper than some American dogs. Now, there are acceptions to every rule, but the dogs I worked showed these traits. There are different bloodlines in Germany that are suppossed to be for different venues, not unlike here.

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:02 am

Dave,

It appears you got me on a technicality, I will admit when I am wrong. Good job :salute: no hard feelings.

PS: Remind me never to get into a debate with you again.

Grey Ghost · Post by **Grey Ghost** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:25 am

Greg Jennings wrote:About the difference: they are in different registries that don't recognize each other. More than that, I cannot say.

Neither can the NADKA. Here's a link to their FAQs page:

http://www.nadkc.org/pages/faq.htm

Ryan,
Other than the registries being different, I'd say the DK testing requirement results in more consistency (at least in theory).

As for there being two separate breeds, as you can see, the NADKA doesn't make that claim and neither do many of the DK breeders. Here's a link to one breeder's website, note that he states that all of his dogs are registered with BOTH the NADKA AND the AKC.

http://www.gspbeavercreekkennel.us/.?sfgdata=4

He's got some impressive stats on the website, DK Dogs can tell you more about this breeders dogs (he has one).

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:22 am

snips wrote:Ryan, the difference I have seen between the 2 is this, and this is limited to the few German dogs I have trained. Both German and American GSP`s vary in bloodlines of course, but the German dogs I have worked hunt at a somewhat closer range, like our Grouse dog here, some carry their head lower and point with a lower head. Their tracking instincts and prey drive may be sharper than some American dogs. Now, there are acceptions to every rule, but the dogs I worked showed these traits. There are different bloodlines in Germany that are suppossed to be for different venues, not unlike here.

So you think that the DK is a harder hunting dog that works a little closer than the gsp's. Do you think I could be from the German sneeding them to hunt closer while the american needed them to hunt farther away for FT.

markj · Post by **markj** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:24 am

If training is everything

I didnt say that, I said proper training will bring out the natural abilities of the dog, like a long distance runner trains for the run. Same thing here, trialers need the big run so they train to bring it out. Not every dog in every litter will have this tho. These are the same dogs in my mind, just used in a different fashion, I see it like this, to say a dk is diff than gsp is like saying a sprinter is a different breed than a marathon runner

but you can belive anything you wish. As for getting out on birds

how about every day?

the cost of getting the FT for the average dog is around 6 grand plus a lot of time, not to mention the cost of trailors, horses etc so for the average guy like myself this is prohibitive. We do hunt tho, sometimes 7 days a week for 30 days or so, depends on who comes out and when. I like to stagger the relatives

so I need dogs that are well bred for one and have the natural abilitiy they were intended to have.

Example, you get a pheasant up, you shoot but just tip him, he goes down on the run, sound familiar? your gsp or dk (German shorthair translated) puts nose to ground and runs him down, this is blood tracking, with a little training to bring it out cause we all know "practise makes perfect"

the dog will and can be then used for tracking. I take a "fetch" toy, tie it to a pole and drag it across the ground and hide it in weeds or something, then let them out and watch the fun

takes them very little time to catch on.

In the 90s there were GSPs taken back to germany and introduced into their trial dogs for run, they also use dogs from Denmark maybe not now but at one time? Just what I was told, I cannot prove it one way or the other so it is speculation on my part which I will readily admit.

Iowa has multiple gamebirds, quail, pheasant, grouse, huns etc. Ok would be nice but I never pay to hunt

hope your hunting is always good.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:56 am

I have kept my nose pretty much out of this debate and will continue to. But have one thing to add, on the issue of the range of a dog and its ability and willingness to accomodate its range and hunting style to what the handler wants. Everybody probably knows I have trial dogs, but I have also had a number of great foot hunting dogs. I like them to run big, but would not even think of putting my AA trial dog down for hunting, at least not without a horse or an ATV. Would lose him real quick. So how do I reconcile the two?

The sister to the AA was as big a runner as a pup as he was. I kept her for hunting. I keep her conditioned, but she has not been sent to the prairies, run off horseback or put in a pros hands. She is just not tuned to run big, run trials, and is not in the same extreme level of conditioning as the AA brother. She lives in the house, and she hunts with me at foot range. So did her mother, who was a big time runaway as a pup.

Maybe am just lucky and have a good line, but it is pretty easy to me. If you want a full bore trial dog, tune it that way. Not all will have the physicality to answer the call, but if you have good trial line breeding, most will. If you want a foot hunting dog, tune it that way.

Some of the confusion comes in when people go to a trial and see the dogs jumping around on their stakeouts, and see the range of the dogs running. Say to themselves, "I would never want one of those." Well, "those" are dogs tuned for trialing, from puphood if a good job has been done. Not all would be suitable for hunting any longer, although some surely would. Same exact dog could be tuned from puphood for a different purpose, such as hunting, and come out just fine. I do it all the time myself. Have two brothers and a friend with pups out of the same litter as the trial dog. Am hard put to remember a day in the last couple years (dogs are three) when we have not filled out, whether pheas or sharptail, and we are all foot hunters now in our 50's, so not willing to race across the prairie after any monster big running dogs.

markj-

we use a shackled pheas. with a piece of surveyors tape for a stringer, so we can see where the bird went. dogs learn to track that real quick. only takes a few lessons to make a good pheasant retriever out of any GSP I have ever owned.

PS How are the quail down there? Used to hunt the border just north of MO alot, but the pop. plummeted, so have not been down in a few years.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:23 am

Ryan wrote:
snips wrote:Ryan, the difference I have seen between the 2 is this, and this is limited to the few German dogs I have trained. Both German and American GSP`s vary in bloodlines of course, but the German dogs I have worked hunt at a somewhat closer range, like our Grouse dog here, some carry their head lower and point with a lower head. Their tracking instincts and prey drive may be sharper than some American dogs. Now, there are acceptions to every rule, but the dogs I worked showed these traits. There are different bloodlines in Germany that are suppossed to be for different venues, not unlike here.
So you think that the DK is a harder hunting dog that works a little closer than the gsp's. Do you think I could be from the German sneeding them to hunt closer while the american needed them to hunt farther away for FT.

Ryan, I don't think "harder hunting" is what Brenda meant.

I also think that you're over-simplifying to say that the American lines range further solely due to field trials.

Regards,

markj · Post by **markj** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:42 pm

we use a shackled pheas. with a piece of surveyors tape for a stringer, so we can see where the bird went. dogs learn to track that real quick. only takes a few lessons to make a good pheasant retriever out of any GSP I have ever owned.

PS How are the quail down there? Used to hunt the border just north of MO alot, but the pop. plummeted, so have not been down in a few years.

I will try the pheas trick, the hide a toy thing i do almost every day, keeps them on top of the game

and in top shape as they run my place all day when I am home.

I understand what you mean by "tuning" a dog, same thing as I posted, all comes back to how you train, what you wish to bring out of the dog. Others do not see this tho but maybe they will if they get to be around a lot of dogs, hunt a lot of dogs. I live in the middle across from Omaha and the quail are singing every nite back behind my place, population is down across the state but it will come back over time as it has in the past.

Good hunting to ya!

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:24 pm

Ryan,

There are differences in DK's as are in GSP's. Our Dk's definetly do not stay close and quarter, we have no use for them in our parts.

The Germans do not put much emphasis on style, so I am told. But if you look at our Dk's lack of style is not an issue at all.

Mark,

THe invitation to hunt with us was not a solicatation. We don't charge anyone.

John,

I agree with you, conditioning is the key, bred right! I have had a few in here that carried the tag of GSP and couldn't care less about a bird!

I would have to be hard pressed to switch breeds away from the GSP. Something about watching them hunt a section of land, spin on a dime and hit a covey, does something!

Phil

markj · Post by **markj** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:26 am

THe invitation to hunt with us was not a solicatation. We don't charge anyone.

Sorry, I mis understood. I will be in Witchita next week for a job on the air base, how close are you to this? Sure would like to see for myself the differences you mentioned

and always love to see new dogs. Ever think of hunting in Iowa or eastern nebr come on up, lots of walking to be done

DK Dogs · Post by **DK Dogs** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:17 am

Mark J
There are plenty of good DK's in Iowa. I have 3 and a friend of my has a few also. We hunt and test our dogs with the NADKC. If you want to stop by some time we can train or just talk dogs. I am located in Casey and my friend is around the Perry area. here is a glance at our dogs. Not putting up our links to "sell" our dogs just to let you see them. Your welcome to come train with us.

My site www.vomroyalshorthairs.com

Jim's site http://www.vomerntemond.com/

markj · Post by **markj** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:44 am

Thanks DK, do you train on weekends? The dogs I now have are from ft lines tho

but they should hunt OK. I like the testing stuff and would like to know can I do this with AKC GSPs? I will look at the nadkc page, this is what gsps were intended to do and I belive the American dogs or at least a good many should be able to do these. I am familiar with shutzhund, used to do dobies but never achieved that level. I do have a friend just recieved a dobie from a Canadien breeder and he may pursue this. Have any DKs achieved this?

DK Dogs · Post by **DK Dogs** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:01 am

I am always training. Weekends are great. I did blood tracking and fox work last weekend. I used to have American GSP's but now have switched to just Dk's. My contact info is on my web page if you want to join in some time let me know. We are currently working on VGP training so you will be able to see the many task these dogs are asked to perform.
Dave