Dog pricing

Big Dave · Post by **Big Dave** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:57 pm

Numark Megan-if you look back she has more than one cross to Red Water Rex, Hoyle Eaton and Ferrell Miller both liked to breed White Knight males to Arkansas Ranger and Red Water Rex females. That is the start of todays "white dog".
Guard Rail/Miller crosses-Miller has stated that Miller's Rising Star was a special dog and he was the result of this cross. I know a man who bought whole litters from the big Miller studs to use for hunting only. He was a big fan of Rising Star's pups.
Ray's Texas/Evolution dogs-I made several trips to the late Hoppy Hopson kennels in Texas. He was known for horseback shooting dogs and later NBHA walking dogs with the Double Lution prefix. He had a great deal of Evolution blood, they were the real deal. When I thought I wanted a Honky Tonk Attitude pup I bought one out of a Hoppy bred female. Heavy Evolution with an Elhew outcross. I have enjoyed her the last 8 years and give her dam much credit. So I am not a "blood line" snob. Our Miller dogs did do well in West Texas along side the Evolution and Rebel dogs.
All Age is King-I didn't make this rule but so it is. Mrawsum produced more winners than Law's High Noon and Silverwood combined. But the shooting dog was left the bridesmaid at hall of fame time.
I am just a shoe leather bird hunter, but I paid attention to the old timers and I want the best hunting dog in the country. I work every day and sometimes on my days off. I can't afford what some people can but that doesn't bother me, I do what I can do. I expect to pay from $350 to $500 for a champion sired pointer pup. I have three dogs right now and all three fit that criteria.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:52 pm

Big Dave -

The Evolution bred dog I referred to was from Frontier kennels out of Alvord, TX. His sire, Chickalah Chief was a walking dog, but you would never know it by looking at my dog in the field.

If the blood is in there, the talent will be in there too. I believe that.

I do competely agree that the Hall of Fame selection process, for right or for wrong, leans heavily toward the all age dogs.

That is what makes the selection of dogs like Smart, Guard Rail, Pork Roll, Bases Loaded and lately, Calico's Rebellious Sue, somewhat special, I think.

RayG

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:23 pm

This thread has brought back a lot of good memories for me. Although I have always lived close to Booneville, MS (where "white dogs" were easily found back in my day) I always prefered other lines for my bird hunting. I still have pictures of some of my favorite Pointer stud dogs on my office wall. I cut all the pitures from the American Field Christmas issues. Yes, I am older than dirt.

Anyone remember any of these?

Big Dave · Post by **Big Dave** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:28 pm

Ch Chickalah Chief was originally registered Fatz Domino and ran in NBHA stakes by Bobby Barnett of Alvord,TX. Rock N Roller, a noted producer of several champions, was also owned and handled by Mr. Barnett in NBHA before both were sold to Gordon Hazelwood as horseback shooting dog prospects.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:10 pm

Didn't know that. Thanks.

That explains why the dog's call name is "Fats".

All I can say is that I would not hesitate to buy a pup out of Chickalah Chief and if I needed a dog I would go back there.

RayG

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:19 pm

The most interesting and best thing to come out of this whole thread was that I learned a new term to use "Hatorade". Now that is truely funny stuff.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:21 pm

Ray, PM sent.

Thanks,
Chip

Ryan Baumann · Post by **Ryan Baumann** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:37 pm

Please don't respond to this thread because the guy that started it got banned..... If you do its called cheap shots..... Start your own thread.. betterbirddogs is gone,..

Ryan...

Lets leave this alone unless your a scavenger........

Ryan.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:45 pm

Ryan,

Explain that to all of us that have taken part in the thread. Do we all have to quit discussing an interesting question because some one drops out for whatever reason? I don't understand your point.

Ezzy

Ryan Baumann · Post by **Ryan Baumann** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:52 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Ryan,

Explain that to all of us that have taken part in the thread. Do we all have to quit discussing an interesting question because some one drops out for whatever reason? I don't understand your point.

Ezzy

Ezzy in all fairness its his thread.... he started it and now he can't defend himself... it should be locked and someone else start a new one with there name on it... it was his and he started it and I only think its fair if they are banned that threre threads get locked.... it only makes sense doesn't it???? We are americans and lets do it justice?????? Other wise let him respond to his thread... I am only trying to be fair to him... I think we should also or start another one... Lets do whats right on this......

Ryan...

I don't agree with everyone but i would not respond to them if they got banned and couldn't defend themself..... Born and raised that way..... Sorry but the truth. Its called humanity....

Ryan...

Razor · Post by **Razor** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:03 pm

BOTTOM LINE-
You pay what you want to pay
You charge what you are able to get

Economics 101

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:04 pm

This is our thread that he started and it wasn't and still isn't a thread that anyone needs to defend. The thread was a discussion of how do you price your dogs and there is no right or wrong to defend but just a whole bunch of opinions. That is what a forum is and it is what this forum is about.

There are several other threads that were started by someone who has since been banned and there has been no hue or cry too have them locked and they are still being posted to and are still informative.

Ezzy

Ryan Baumann · Post by **Ryan Baumann** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:08 pm

ezzy333 wrote:This is our thread that he started and it wasn't and still isn't a thread that anyone needs to defend. The thread was a discussion of how do you price your dogs and there is no right or wrong to defend but just a whole bunch of opinions. That is what a forum is and it is what this forum is about.

There are several other threads that were started by someone who has since been banned and there has been no hue or cry too have them locked and they are still being posted to and are still informative.

Ezzy

Ok ezzy... thats fine.. Anyway you know how I feel about it.. So i'm out on the ethics of it.

Thanks for the response.

Ryan.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:44 pm

Sheesh, Ryan you need to lighten up on the Hatorade buddy.

Each person who posted was just voicing their own collective opinion on the subject.

rstbkt69 · Post by **rstbkt69** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:30 am

How about 100 bucks for an unplanned but well taken care of litter of pups that will not be papered. But I have one of the dams dog and she is sweet. With lots of prey drive. The one I just got back from training, Her dam had an accidental tying with one of the breeders males. My dog hunts hard and somtimes ranges over 150 yds. Would these be worth the case for sombody that just wanted a dog to hunt with.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:39 am

Why wouldn't you register them? Sounds like it would be a good breeding.

Ezzy

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:59 am

Must be "droppers!" They make excellent birddogs sometimes.

rstbkt69 · Post by **rstbkt69** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:48 am

I am not sure but they are both registered GSP's. He is a pretty stand up guy though and I'm guessing that since it was not a planned litter that there was no chance to "make the breed better"so to speak, so he is just taking care of them well and letting them go to good homes. He just said he didn't want any of them bred so I am guessing they are not up to his standards as to what he wants to have his girl produce. Both the parents are good hunters from what he says and i have no reason to doubt him because I believe my dog will be great this season. Unless i mess the training up somehow. LOL My dog does not have the same sire though.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:33 am

Just a quick thought. If both parents are registered gsps, you friend might be better off registering the litter and selling the pups on a limited registration. Just thinking that he might find better home if they're registered and having a limited registration is *some* insurance against the pups being bred...at least in the better homes that a limited registration might appeal to.

FWIW,

Greg J.

rstbkt69 · Post by **rstbkt69** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:41 pm

I'll send an E-mail and mention it to him.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:31 pm

I am a new breeder, under the tutilage of my friend who lives about 70 miles from me and has raised English Pointers for over 30 years. He has 'taken me under his wing' so to speak, and we had this very conversation about why's this dogs one price the other is a different price.
Here's his answer and mine too.. because it makes sense. It is mostly based on looks and style. (usually looks)
think of it this way.. If you were shopping for a hooker, there were 4 lined up, they all do the same thing, but one of them is a KNOCKOUT, the other three average and look the same. Who's your pick? and I gurantee you'd pay more for the Knockout.
I just sold a 5 month old EP pup that has only been on birds one time and knows the word 'here' to a gentleman out of California for $1250. WHY? Looks. He's got a perfectly conformed body, bk/w mask and Clean white body. He's a very large pointer too. Chalk that up to granddad, dad, and mama. all three big.

I agree with the previous post too. Alot of it is just whatever the consumer wants. I have plenty of calls from people who say they are just looking for a 'dog with a good nose' thats it. I point them to the local classifieds, and refer to the old addage "you get what you pay for." I get $500 for my pups and only if it's going to pay me back dividends later on will I come down in price. Why come down when you can start them and get more $ down the road. Although I need to buy stock in Purina Mills...Aghh my feedbill keeps going up and up and up.

rstbkt69 · Post by **rstbkt69** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:43 am

Back to the 100 dollar pups. Nobody has wanted a limited regstration. Just good hunting dogs or a family pet or both. A couple of them went to people that have bought from him before. He has 4 males left and thinks 3 of them would make great gun dogs. I didn't ask him about the other one. He might not show any prey drive. Not saying he has done this to this litter but on the one my girl came from they were introduced to a bird with the wing clipped to see what they had. So are these dogs worth 100.00 We've talked the high end stuff for a while now how about the low end. 4 pups 3 "may be trainable" one is a candidate for dock jumping or agility runs. His dogs are smart too hence the dock and agility abilities. No papers. A couple of Hunters are never wanting to breed lets say but know this guy has good dogs but this group doesn't make his cut. So do you lay out 100.00 for a hunting buddy for you, your son, or a grandson ( that has permission from dad and mom )that has been docked dew clawed and shots up to date and he usually supplies the next two booster rounds, or do you wait for the 2500.00 dog of you dreams to come around and take the same training opportunities with that one. Are these dogs worth 100.00. Both parents have decent lines. Mine has Big oak Snappy tom in hers but I don't know about these guys and I don't get into the name game big enough to talk lineage with mine let alone his new litter. Lets just take that on my word. Alll his dogs hunt. Mine from him is great on a training field with a couple of wild bird runs mixed in . We will see how much fun we have together in a few weeks on quial and Chuker. Worth 100 or not?
Jim

PowerPoint · Post by **PowerPoint** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:35 am

100 bucks is a bit too rich for my blood to spend on a Shorthair,,hehe

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:34 am

I'll be honest, I haven't read this complete thread. Here is my opinion on pricing.

Pups: A pup's price is driven by the availability of the breed and the performance of the parents. There are a ton of EP's out there and it's probably easier to get a good one than anyother breed. They are also the cheapest. Breeds like the DD, PP, LM, etc. are harder to come by and still harder to come by from competetion proven parents. They are the most expensive. Supply and Demand.

Trained dogs: They are driven by the ability of the dog and amount of training. The originator of the thread said he'd never pay $5000.00 for a dog. I've sold retrievers for $15,000.00. Let's look at it from a realistic prospective and use today's prices. First, the trainer needs a pup to start. If he holds one out of a litter or buys one, he's invested 500-1000 in the pup. Now he has to raise and train that pup until it's about 1 1/2 years old. For every hour of work he has in that pup, he should be paid the going rate of today's tradesmen, which is about 40.00 per hour. He's going to have a bare minimum of 30" a day in that pup for the year and a half, if he does a good job on it. Lets say in a year that's 90 hours of work at $40.00 per hour. $3600.00. He also has the feed, vet bills, gas, and birds for a year and a half. See how fast it add's up?

It's easy to cheat on how much you pay yourself and sell them for less, but if a dog trainer considers himself a skilled tradesman, he should be paid what he's worth.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:02 pm

gonehuntin' wrote: It's easy to cheat on how much you pay yourself and sell them for less, but if a dog trainer considers himself a skilled tradesman, he should be paid what he's worth.

Absolutely GH.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:08 pm

Of course the arguement is what is it worth?

Ezzy

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:40 am

[quote="gonehuntin'"]I'll be honest, I haven't read this complete thread. Here is my opinion on pricing.

Trained dogs: They are driven by the ability of the dog and amount of training. The originator of the thread said he'd never pay $5000.00 for a dog. I've sold retrievers for $15,000.00. Let's look at it from a realistic prospective and use today's prices. First, the trainer needs a pup to start. If he holds one out of a litter or buys one, he's invested 500-1000 in the pup. Now he has to raise and train that pup until it's about 1 1/2 years old. For every hour of work he has in that pup, he should be paid the going rate of today's tradesmen, which is about 40.00 per hour. He's going to have a bare minimum of 30" a day in that pup for the year and a half, if he does a good job on it. Lets say in a year that's 90 hours of work at $40.00 per hour. $3600.00. He also has the feed, vet bills, gas, and birds for a year and a half. See how fast it add's up? quote]

You would also need to add any amount that the trainer had expended for trials and hunt tests, if any.

With that in mind, what would be the minimum amount that a person should pay for a started dog. So far, I haven't seen any started dog going for less than $1500 (this would be a pup of 9-12 months). Most, and since I have checked mainly Brittanys, go for around $2500 dollars.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:54 am

3Britts wrote:
With that in mind, what would be the minimum amount that a person should pay for a started dog. So far, I haven't seen any started dog going for less than $1500 (this would be a pup of 9-12 months). Most, and since I have checked mainly Brittanys, go for around $2500 dollars.

Boy that word, "started dog" is a slippery slope. Everyone considers a started dog something different. To me, started is obedience trained, force fetched, handling birds and the gun, pointing but not staunch. I'd price a dog like that at $2500.00 if I had about $500.00 in him as a pup. He'd be about a year to 16 months old and have about three months of formal training in him.

PowerPoint · Post by **PowerPoint** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:57 pm

That definition is considered by most is more than started.Thats borderline finished

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:29 pm

PowerPoint wrote:That definition is considered by most is more than started.Thats borderline finished

That depends on who the trainer is. That's why it's so hard to define a started dog. My personal view is that a started dog is a dog that can be finished by a person that puts in the time. All of the technical stuff has been done, or most of it. To each their own.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:01 pm

This is why when dealing in started dogs you see a young pup priced, lets say 600. WITH the verbage "PRICE INCREASES AS TRAINING PROGRESSES"
I will list pups as Started Dogs as soon as I start working with them formaly. (birds, guns, whoa, etc) because they are just that.. Started. I agree with Powerpoint. That in my world is a almost finished dog and would be priced much higher. IMO

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:10 pm

prairiefirepointers wrote:This is why when dealing in started dogs you see a young pup priced, lets say 600. WITH the verbage "PRICE INCREASES AS TRAINING PROGRESSES"
I will list pups as Started Dogs as soon as I start working with them formaly. (birds, guns, whoa, etc) because they are just that.. Started. I agree with Powerpoint. That in my world is a almost finished dog and would be priced much higher. IMO

PF, I have to thank you for this post. I had never seen the "prices increases and training progresses" tag before. It put a smile of my face. I live in Utah now and if I added that line to a string of puppies, I would get asked: what would be the cost of a puppy after about six weeks of training? How about after 10?
I guess that I consider a started dog, one that is steady to wing, shot and kill. I would not be worrying about honoring or retreive. Whoa seems more for the judges then my hunting buddies.

PowerPoint · Post by **PowerPoint** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:22 pm

I have seen the "price increases as training progresses" many,many times. Its not on a 10 wk old puppy however.My puppies stay at puppy price until I start them.i.e. check cording,planting birds,staking out,intro to collar,handling,gunfire ect. If you advertise a 6 month old "started' dog for 600 dollars,and state price will increase with training that to me doesnt throw up any red flags,just that at 10 months old after 3 months more training one may expect that the dog is doing more,and therefore worth more money.Id also say that a dog that is steady to wing and shot,with all the training that comes prior to that is once again 80% finished.Am I off on this one? I personally would consider that a broke dog ready to hunt/trial..

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:31 pm

No.. You're dead on. Nice Shot.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:51 pm

[quote][/ if I added that line to a string of puppies, I would get asked: what would be the cost of a puppy after about six weeks of training? How about after 10?
quote]
Well at 6 weeks they would'nt even be going away from my kennel to a client yet. Puppies are in their 3rd Critical Stage of Mental Development and need to be just a pup. I prefer to let puppys go home at 49 days old exactly.
Now at 10 weeks they would be in their 4th CSMD and in "Preschool." This is where I introduce their first word, 'Here'
I don't get serious with a pup until after all this and they are past their 5th CSMD and at least 16 weeks of age.
Clear As Mud BRITT?

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:05 pm

See what I mean by the term "started dog" being a slippery slope?

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:12 pm

prairiefirepointers wrote:
[/ if I added that line to a string of puppies, I would get asked: what would be the cost of a puppy after about six weeks of training? How about after 10?
quote]
Well at 6 weeks they would'nt even be going away from my kennel to a client yet. Puppies are in their 3rd Critical Stage of Mental Development and need to be just a pup. I prefer to let puppys go home at 49 days old exactly.
Now at 10 weeks they would be in their 4th CSMD and in "Preschool." This is where I introduce their first word, 'Here'
I don't get serious with a pup until after all this and they are past their 5th CSMD and at least 16 weeks of age.
Clear As Mud BRITT?

Excuse me. I should have said 6 weeks into their training. Until they are about 4 months old, I tend to let them chase birds around the yard. Unless I am working with them on heel, house training, etc. I wouldn't even consider a dog started before 9-12 months. That way they have a real chance to work with birds.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:29 pm

okay.. how bout for arguments sake we examine this. I just sold a 5mo Pointer to Cali who is to be shipped next week. Now this particular pup will have approxametly 20 birds already under his belt before this next monday. (live bird Saturdays!)
Now this pup has chased, hunted, pointed, and has been shot over aprox 20 PR birds. Not to mention a few birds he has retreived on his own accord. How has this pup not had a "REAL CHANCE TO WORK WITH BIRDS"

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:18 am

Okay, for arguments sake. I would want to know if the pup is working consistantly on those birds.
Personally, I would want to see more than 20 and I wouldn't put a solid number of birds worked as most
dogs become "started dogs" at different ages. Every pup arrives at its own pace.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:51 pm

I agree on the number of birds, but my client wanted him now, and so I sold him. Yes they all have their own pace, Pointers being a quick one!

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:04 pm

prairiefirepointers wrote:I agree on the number of birds, but my client wanted him now, and so I sold him. Yes they all have their own pace, Pointers being a quick one!

Is that why they over run more birds than Britts do?

A bit of scarcasum to liven up the day.

Post by **topher40** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:37 pm

20 pages and still different opinions, this thread is still alive? :roll: Dead horse maybe? .......................

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:36 pm

I just got in from a High School FB game 90 Miles away.. I'm tired or I would look up how many times Pointers have SMOKED Brittanys in FT's. Maybe 2moro.

birdsandbirds · Post by **birdsandbirds** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:25 am

prairiefirepointers wrote:I just got in from a High School FB game 90 Miles away.. I'm tired or I would look up how many times Pointers have SMOKED Brittanys in FT's. Maybe 2moro.

iF i wasn't so tired i would show you pics of pointers that have there tails docked!!!!!

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:12 am

3Britts wrote:
prairiefirepointers wrote:I agree on the number of birds, but my client wanted him now, and so I sold him. Yes they all have their own pace, Pointers being a quick one!

Is that why they over run more birds than Britts do?
A bit of scarcasum to liven up the day.

The plain fact of the matter is that...with some exceptions, like some of the all age field trial brits I have seen...if you tied your average field Brit to your average field Pointer and cut them loose, the Pointer would soon be out there dragging a dead Brit.

They run different, they hunt different, they point different...for the most part. They have, as a rule, very different temperaments.

That is why some folks prefer one breed and some another. What you enjoy might bore the heck out of me and what I enjoy might frustrate the heck out of you. Different strokes for different folks.

RayG

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:26 pm

I paid $3,000 for a pup.
She had her SH before her first birthday and her MH before her second.
Both of her parents were former Canadian national amateur field trial champions.
If you want the blood, expect to pay for it.

Candlewood Tanks A Lot was sold for only $265,000, her pups went for $5,000, so I figure a Lean Mac x Lonesome Dove pup for only 3K was a bargain.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:45 pm

blunder wrote:I paid $3,000 for a pup.
She had her SH before her first birthday and her MH before her second.
Both of her parents were former Canadian national amateur field trial champions.
If you want the blood, expect to pay for it.

Candlewood Tanks A Lot was sold for only $265,000, her pups went for $5,000, so I figure a Lean Mac x Lonesome Dove pup for only 3K was a bargain.

Sounds like you are happy with your pup and that is what counts. Getting the SH and MH titles at a young age would be no incentive for me to buy a pup from that breeding. Those titles come from good training and I would much sooner have a pup that has had a chance to be a pup, develop his independence, and then after a season or two when the dog is mature to be trained to that level if a person wants to do it.

But that is the differewnce in people and what they want from a dog. I do know there isn't a pup alive that I would pay that amount of money for but again to each his own. I can find pups that have all of the ability I am looking for in the 4 to 5 hundred range and many of them are the very top breedings.

Ezzy

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:37 pm

There are pups available from a stud named Stephens Bright Copper who is a 22x champion for about $300 a piece. It all depends on where you live. Around here the market is flooded with good EP's so they are practically giving them away. I will guarantee you a good setter will run you about $600 around here though. There just are not as many of them so if you want one you will pay for it.

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:44 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
3Britts wrote:
prairiefirepointers wrote:I agree on the number of birds, but my client wanted him now, and so I sold him. Yes they all have their own pace, Pointers being a quick one!

Is that why they over run more birds than Britts do?
A bit of scarcasum to liven up the day.

The plain fact of the matter is that...with some exceptions, like some of the all age field trial brits I have seen...if you tied your average field Brit to your average field Pointer and cut them loose, the Pointer would soon be out there dragging a dead Brit.

They run different, they hunt different, they point different...for the most part. They have, as a rule, very different temperaments.

That is why some folks prefer one breed and some another. What you enjoy might bore the heck out of me and what I enjoy might frustrate the heck out of you. Different strokes for different folks.

RayG

Notice the winky Ray? Just having a bit of fun.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:06 pm

[quote][/quThat is why some folks prefer one breed and some another. What you enjoy might bore the heck out of me and what I enjoy might frustrate the heck out of you. Different strokes for different folks.

ote] I ABSOLUTELY AGREE