Gun Dog Forum

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:56 pm

Just wondering on what a 20 gauge O/U is going for these days. Nothing special as long as it shoots where its pointed?

Addict · Post by **Addict** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:39 pm

It all depends on how much you want to spend. A good place to check out several guns and their prices is: http://www.gunbroker.com/ Just do a search for 20 ga O/U.

This will give you an idea of the brands that fall within your budget. Then you can find local dealers and go handle them.

Addict

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:41 am

Ryan-

You have three general ranges of quality and price, not counting the really high buck guns (over 2 grand). The lo range guns are around 600-700. Generally kind of clunky. Then there is the Browning Citori, which runs around a grand depending alot on the style. Nice gun and very suitable for a hunter. High end would be the Beretta's at between 1200 and 1800 depending on style and model and wood.

ccavacini · Post by **ccavacini** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:24 am

If you're going to get one, save your money and buy a quality o/u. I've a Citori 12 and a 20 (bought the 12 twenty years ago, used for 500). New they're around1,200 up. But there are some used ones being sold. These are great guns.

I've looked at the new Spartan o/u's. Kind of clunky compared to the better shotguns. Beretta also makes a fine o/u's. One of my huning buddies shoots a Ruger Red Label and he loves it.

They'll last a life time so they're worth saving up for.

sdgord · Post by **sdgord** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:55 am

Ryan, I have gone completely to the o/u. Wound up buying two Beretta white wings,low end of Berettas scale retails about a grand,one in 20 the other 12. bought them for the weight. Then wound up buying a 686 Beretta Covey in 28 and a Browning 28. The latter have much nicer wood,and nicer engraving. But when I hunt with them I find myself being more self conscious about making sure I dont scratch em. I know that there a lot of good used guns on the market. The Citoris are a good value in the used market. If you can get a superposed at a reasonable price it is a good investment. Check blue book values of used guns before you commit to a purchase, and of course a dealer that stands behind even his used sales.SDGORD
PS Cabelas gun library on line can give you an idea about prices and availability.

tfbirddog2 · Post by **tfbirddog2** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:03 pm

Ryan, I own a Biakal 20 ga.o/u , now known as Spartin owned by Remington.I love that little gun, not one problem with it.Don;t forget SKBs you can buy most of them for $600 to $1200.They have a nice wide selection to choose from.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:25 pm

I totally agree with the buy a good gun theory. Does Benelli sell one? I know Rem does. This gun is going to be mainly for feild Trials and when I am out goofing around with skeets.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:46 pm

I've picked up a Traditions made by Fausti that had nice finish and wood.

One of the lesser known and good-for-the-money O/U is the H&K-Fabarm x-Lion series. I handled a Silver Lion.

The Remington 332 is nice. I'm a Remington man from the cradle, but I've had trouble with them rusting that I've never had with my Beretta. Ditto Browning, Winchester and SKB.

I've shot Ruger Red Labels. Never picked up one that fit me though. Also, the triggers have been *terrible*. It's a particular peeve of mine.

Grant has a Franchi Veloce that is incredibly light. It'd make a great gun for toting up and down mountains.

I've heard some good things about the CZ shotguns that are made by Huglu, with CZ design and QA support. I haven't picked one up.

I shot a Rizzini sporting clays o/u that I really, really liked. I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

The Perrazi is very nice but you have to be married to a Heinz to own one. Ditto the K-80.

I saved the Beretta for last. I've shot a Beretta for years. It's an older 682. Not the "E", but the original. It's built like a bank vault. Heavy as one too, though. Look into the 686 and 687 variants. I prefer the Sporting (Clays) versions. Get ready to spend some $, though. They ain't cheap.

Best,

LookoutDog · Post by **LookoutDog** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:55 pm

Ryan,

I have found the Citori to be a good value. Don't think you can go wrong with them. Most important factor in my opinion is finding an O/U that fits you.

I don't think Benelli makes an O/U.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:11 pm

LookoutDog wrote:Ryan,

I have found the Citori to be a good value. Don't think you can go wrong with them. Most important factor in my opinion is finding an O/U that fits you.

I don't think Benelli makes an O/U.

Ya idont either and it would be big $ to get one made.

I will just head into my local gun store and look at different models.

birdshot · Post by **birdshot** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:44 pm

i like a twenty gauge built on a twenty gauge frame. some guns use a twenty gauge barrel in a twelve gauge frame. this makes a 20 clunky and heavier. same with 28s. while i shoot much better with a heavy gun, i would rather miss with a sexy gun.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:25 pm

I got one of those ruger red labels in 20. It has been over the mountian through the cliffs and rim rocks. Been droped, drove over, smacked a few rocks, and fallen on. Has a bent vent rib, has what I call Nevada engraving and checkering (scratches and gouges), a broken fore stock glued back together.

:roll:

With the same gun I can go to shoot sporting clays and out shoot 90% of the people at the shoots so it still shoots just like the day I bought it just not as "SEXY".

It may not be as tight as the day I bought it but for the money and what I use it for one heck of a gun.
:snipe:
NOTE: I am not a great shooter I am just a little better than average. My bird kills dont do me any justice

Grey Ghost · Post by **Grey Ghost** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:21 am

Ryan wrote:Nothing special as long as it shoots where its pointed

In that case, the Stoeger Condor goes for about $300. I believe you can get a new Spartan (made by Baikal, imported by Remington) for under $500. Personnally, I've never handled either, and I've heard much good and bad about both. Most of the bad things I've heard seem to be what I'll call "cosmetic" as opposed to performance related. People have issues with the finish of the wood and what not or the guns make a thunking noise when opened and closed, etc. The worst thing I've heard regards inconsistency of actual performance quality in the Stoeger, but then I've heard that they do a good job of standing behind their product (i.e. they make good on legitimate problems).

Given the price, if I were in the market for a new o/u, I'd at least give these a look.

ccavacini · Post by **ccavacini** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:26 am

tfbirddog2 wrote:Ryan, I own a Biakal 20 ga.o/u , now known as Spartin owned by Remington.I love that little gun, not one problem with it.Don;t forget SKBs you can buy most of them for $600 to $1200.They have a nice wide selection to choose from.

I'm dying to get a 28 guage...have Citori 20 and 12...but can't afford the 28. I've seen the Spartans on line but never picked one up...Have you ever been around the 28? Some of the manufacturers just put 28 barrels on a 20 frame...which is what I don't want...I'm looking for the reduced weight.

SteveB · Post by **SteveB** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:29 am

Grey Ghost wrote:
Ryan wrote:Nothing special as long as it shoots where its pointed
In that case, the Stoeger Condor goes for about $300. I believe you can get a new Spartan (made by Baikal, imported by Remington) for under $500. Personnally, I've never handled either, and I've heard much good and bad about both. Most of the bad things I've heard seem to be what I'll call "cosmetic" as opposed to performance related. People have issues with the finish of the wood and what not or the guns make a thunking noise when opened and closed, etc. The worst thing I've heard regards inconsistency of actual performance quality in the Stoeger, but then I've heard that they do a good job of standing behind their product (i.e. they make good on legitimate problems).

Given the price, if I were in the market for a new o/u, I'd at least give these a look.

I agree. I have the Baikal SxS and I really like it for the price. Is it a citori or a red label? No, but I paid $200 used for it. I know "a lot of money" is a relative phrase, but if I owned a shotgun that cost me $1000 it would be too valuable to take afield.
Steve

Flyingm · Post by **Flyingm** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:11 pm

I have 4 shotguns, 2 each 20 & 12 ga. I have a 12 ga o/u and a 20 ga. Baikal IZH-27. I use the Baikal almost exclusively now. I was at Academy and noticed their Spartans. The 12 Ga. o/u was was $388.00 and the 20 Ga. was $466.00 or thereabouts. Same model, just different ga.

I went to the new Cabela's in Fort Worth,Tx recently. They have a place called the gun library. They had all sorts of fancy guns in there. They had some "pigeongrade" Model 12's (beautifull guns) and the 20 ga were a couple of hundred more than the 12 ga. examples.

Most of the criticism of the Baikal/Spartan is of the cosmetic kind. The wood is very plain and the finish of that wood is not all that spectacular. But as a hunting gun, I love it. It balances for me very well. It fits my shoulder and best of all I can really hit with it. I took it duck hunting in some very wet and mucky conditions last year. I didn't care if it got muddy. I could concentrate on my hunt craft and not worrying about not messing up a premium piece of French Walnut.

But the bottom line regardless of the brand you choose ( and all of the brands mentioned in this thread are worthy firearms)... be prepared to pay more for a 20.

Katies Dad · Post by **Katies Dad** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:46 pm

You should look a verona very nice gun has all the same features as a baretta or any other big name gun! I cant comment on anything but the condor and the spartan. The condor I hear has a lot of mechanical problems and the feel is very bulky and wood is not really snazzy but what do you expect from a 300 dollar range gun? Now the spartan I was kinda let down buy the one that my local sporting goods store the forearm felt very loose. I would have thought that remington wounld put their name on it but maybe it was just that particular gun. I do like the looks of the citori and even the cynergy I always wanted a baretta they are really good looking guns I would just be to worried about mangling it.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:58 pm

I am really good with wood working so i can strip the stock and restain it if i want. I also have a fmaily member that is really good with drawing so i can incorperate somthing into the stock.

Why do you pay more for a 20 than a 12 though anyone know??

tfbirddog2 · Post by **tfbirddog2** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 9:27 pm

CCavacini,I don't believe that biakalput the 28 on the 20 frame,I asked about one to the gun shop owner and he sold one to a local guy and he loves shoots skeet with it.I bought mine in the hiney gold finish and love it, personally are you going to kill clay and birds with it or show it off.There are a ton and i mean ton of Spartan(Biakal) out here cause they are affordable.Just remeber it is about fit not the name, unless that means something to you.Remember it is what you want, don't be swayed by price tags, but what you can afford.

Flyingm · Post by **Flyingm** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:13 pm

I'm going to guess that 20 ga are made in smaller runs. The 12 is by far the most popular gauge. So they make more and probably due to the economy of scale have lower cost per unit. With a 20, they don't make as many so they have to get more $$ for them. People who want a 20 really want a 20!

As far as the Win model 12 pump, they made millions in 12 gauge but a whole lot less in the 20. Since the 20 is more rare on the collectors market they go for more.

If you can refinish a Baikal/Spartan, I think it would look pretty good. I almost stripped and refinished mine. I decided to wait. I have seen some pictures of Baikals refinished and they look pretty good.

I recently bought some extended choke tubes for it ( Colonial Super Steel) and I can't wait to shoot with them. My Baikal has some excellent grade steel with chrome lined barrels, single selective trigger, and selective ejectors/extractors. I did put a hi-viz magnetic strip sight on it. I have those on all of my shotguns as well as my wife's Rem 870 pump 20 ga. youth model.

I just don't have the money to spend on a $1000.00 shotgun. Especially when I had three shotguns to begin with. All of my guns are hunting guns. I have a Winchester 140 Ranger 20ga, a Win 1200 12 gauge, and a Savage model 440 O/U in 12 gauge. But I was dying to get a 20 ga o/u.

Fortunately for me I learned about the Baikal and investigated it. I saved up some money and bought one about a year ago. I have put a couple of thousand rounds through it mostly at the range but hunting,too. I've shot the 2 3/4 inch 7/8 ounce dove and quail specials to 3inch 1 ounce #3 steel duck loads. It kicks out the empties way back and doesn't seem to kick my shuolder too hard.

The problem that I tend to have with my 12's and particularly with my Savage is when I shoot alot is I start to get a headache. That Savage kicks pretty stoutly. I don't get headaches with either of my 20 gauges.

ccavacini · Post by **ccavacini** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:24 am

tfbirddog2 wrote:CCavacini,I don't believe that biakalput the 28 on the 20 frame,I asked about one to the gun shop owner and he sold one to a local guy and he loves shoots skeet with it.I bought mine in the hiney gold finish and love it, personally are you going to kill clay and birds with it or show it off.There are a ton and i mean ton of Spartan(Biakal) out here cause they are affordable.Just remeber it is about fit not the name, unless that means something to you.Remember it is what you want, don't be swayed by price tags, but what you can afford.

Thanks for the reply...there's a Gander Mountain in Coldwater, MI that has some Spartans...I'm going over this weekend to look.

Scottyboy · Post by **Scottyboy** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:51 pm

I shoot a Berreta Black Onyx Pro in 20ga. I like to think of it is as a nice gun. It's a good shooting gun that is light, swings good and handles good. And it has really good looking wood, so it looks great while its working. I believe I paid around 1900 for it. You can't go wrong with a Berreta.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:59 pm

Nothing else to do while I'm living in the danged hotel, so I went to "bleep"'s and handled a Remington Spartan tonight to get a handle on it as the price is right.

It looked better than I expected. The external metal and wood finish were better than the price would indicate.

I had two complaints:

1. The fit of the action leaves a lot to be expected. I had to really work to get it to lock up after closing. It would wear in, but if the same fit carries throughout the gun, especially the trigger, it would drive me crazy.

2. The gun was stocked extremely low. I wouldn't be able to shoot it w/o building up the stock.

Best,

scotton · Post by **scotton** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:48 pm

I own 2 Stoeger Condors, and am about to buy a third. They have come out with a new "competition" grade that is very nice, and still around $500. The Huglu's I've shot have been good quality as well.

They aren't Citoris, but for a field gun I love them. When the barb wire scratches the stock, or the dog knocks them into the gravel, or you have to use one as a shovel to get out of chest deep mud, it's nice to know you only paid $400-$500. Someday I'll be less rough with my tools. Until then I'll keep shooting Stoegers in the field.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:24 pm

I looked at a beretta today and I fell in love. It was light and small the only problem was that it only had 1 trigger for both barrels. I want 1 trigger per barrels.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:37 pm

Not sure on this but I dont think any of the modern O/U have 2 triggers. Maybe in a double but not in the O/U

Why do you want 2 triggers any way?

That beretta is a real nice gun though

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:40 pm

I can down a bird in 1 shot i dont need another going off i would rather save it for another bird.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:57 pm

as far as my knowledge goes O/U arnt full auto :rock:

Each pull of the trigger fires only one barrel. There is a selector switch that alows you to chose which barrel fires first. At least with my Ruger that is the way it is. I think some O/U are fixed on which barrel fires first.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:21 am

o okay i was talking to a friends uncle and he said all his fired both barrels at once so i just wanted to make sure. I know my old teacher has an O/U that had a double trigger on it. 12 gauge though dont know the make or model.

sdgord · Post by **sdgord** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:31 am

Ryan if both barrells fire at the same time there is something wrong with the firing mechanism. Aside from being foolish to fire both barrells it could be dangerous. All the o/u should have a selector switch to choose which barrell fires first. The recoil inertia from the first shot sets up the second shot. A competant gunsmith can fix your friends gun. Double triggers are found mainly in S/S the AYA s and Merkels are the most common I have seen.SDGORD

Grey Ghost · Post by **Grey Ghost** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:37 am

Ditto on Casper's post. Most have what's ussually called a single selective trigger. Some of what I'll call the "budget guns" are fixed so that you can't change which fires barrell first. I believe the Stoeger Condor comes in three grades with the lowest grade not having a selector switch. In this case, I think it's the bottom barrel that always fires first.

Post by **Ayres** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:14 pm

sdgord wrote:Ryan if both barrells fire at the same time there is something wrong with the firing mechanism. Aside from being foolish to fire both barrells it could be dangerous. All the o/u should have a selector switch to choose which barrell fires first. The recoil inertia from the first shot sets up the second shot. A competant gunsmith can fix your friends gun. Double triggers are found mainly in S/S the AYA s and Merkels are the most common I have seen.SDGORD

So, let me get this right... I don't physically have to switch the selector switch in order to fire the second barrel, that switch is only to show which barrel fires first?

(You can tell that I've never shot an O/U before, only handled them in stores)

Man... that's gonna make it a lot easier. I can't believe I didn't realize that.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:52 pm

yes once the barrel as been chosen you can then fire that barrel then the next. even though it realy makes little difference which barrel fires first. it does if you were a clays competitor but for hunting or trialingit doesnt. I hunt with a Ruger O/U and I sometimes bump the switch and change the barrels. not good for a close flushing bird whe you hit it at 20yrds with a mod. choke :roll:

sdgord · Post by **sdgord** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:11 pm

Ryan, Casper is correct. I prefer to shoot the bottom barrel first with the more open choke of the two. The safety and the barrel selector are in the same mechanism. One point of safety concern is that I have seen certain o/u and s/s fire a barrel when closed so its always a good idea to make sure your barrel is pointed up or well down range while closing. sdgord

scotton · Post by **scotton** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:16 am

Grey Ghost, you are correct re: the Stoegers. The low end Condor shoots the bottom barrel first. Mine is camo'd out and used as a duck gun. It also lacks ejectors, which I prefer when hunting from a blind.

The mid and upper end Condor's have SST and ejectors.

Most O/U over $500 will have SST. The Stoeger base model and I think Baikel base model are two exceptions that come to mind. Not really an issue in a field gun, but it will save some time if you shoot a lot of sporting clays. I can't think of a hunting situation where I changed the barrel order.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:26 pm

i dont want to go pro with clays. just for when i am out with friends or at a range.

i didnt know u could switch barrels on then where is it usually?

portsider44 · Post by **portsider44** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:26 pm

Casper wrote:Not sure on this but I dont think any of the modern O/U have 2 triggers. Maybe in a double but not in the O/U

Why do you want 2 triggers any way?

That beretta is a real nice gun though

The Baikal/EAA had a double trigger O/U avaiable at one time, but for most single triggers is the way to go. I shot a Stevens 311 for a long while (double trigger sxs) & it didn't bother me much. As it was my first shotgun.

Recently I bought my 14 year son a 20 ga Stevens 311 20ga & he couldn't shoot the double triggers using 2 fingers w/o pulling both at once. When I tried to shot it it didnt feel right. Being a LH shooter the front trigger being to the right & the back trigger to the right was odd. Shooting it RH was fine but I couldn't hit a thing (left eye dominate).

Double triggers are nice for those that grew up with them but for most singles a the way to go. SST (single selctive triggers) are overrated in the field IMO.

In the end listen to others when it comes to quality, dependability, price & listen to yourself when it comes to fit & feel. Becuase for most fit & feel is where it's all at.

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