So What Now???

[Zerah Morris]

Well I have had the toughest 24hrs in my life. Yesterday I took my seven month old Brittany to a near by WMA for his first solo hunt. We have worked and trained since he was 8 weeks. He has run fields, prairies, woods, briars, everywhere; and has had tons of wild bird exposure. He has finally started standing a few birds, "here's" fairly reliably, turns on "hup" fairly reliably, and the day was set to be a fun day with just him and I; who cares if we shoot any/many birds.

Once out I could tell right away that his enthusiasm was high. I have been working to develop his range and he has found a good pocket out between 150 and 250 yards. This area though was gamy! Deer everywhere, turkey, quail, squirrels, just filled to the brim and Wren was on fire. He was quickly working at 300 yards. Then he locked up, stood point, let me flush and shoot a quail. He made no effort toward the retrieve so I headed to the downed bird. When I looked up he was gone! 10:30am

The few times he has disappeared in the past he has always worked his way back in 10-15 minutes, so I called once and moved on. After 30 or so minutes I started to get worried and made my way back to the truck and stored the gun away and went looking. Suddenly there he was a half mile away burning a$$ down the edge of the field in blood lust pursuit of something invisible to me. When I whistled and called he never even glanced my way, and then he way gone.

I spent the whole day walking and calling, blowing my whistle, searching with binoculars, hours on hours. Called in my wife and dad about 3:00pm. I decided to see if I could drive around the back side of the WMA in the direction he was last headed as the terrain he was moving through was impenetrable. Of course while I was gone my wife and a few local hunters saw him but could not catch up to him, still in full bolt.

We searched and called and searched till after dark, finally giving in, I left my sweaty undershirt and coat tucked in some high grass near where we had parked that morning; and tears in my eyes headed home. Drank a few beers, made a bunch of lost dog posters and went to bed. I reasoned I would go back today just to give him a shot, he has been so good to me I felt he deserved it.

Headed back at 6:00am today. Stopped in the local towns and posted the posters at the only convenience store greeted by all the farmers having coffee, dropped one at the COOP, and the drive through beer shack, then headed to where he had last been seen. Something had slept on the coat and shirt but hard to say what it was, coyote, coon, wild dogs, who knows. Walked, whistled, called, blisters, miles of trails, cold, frustrated, heart broke, hours passed. Put up a few signs at the entrances and parking areas all around the WMA, talked to every hunter I could find, stopped farmers on the road, knocked doors; and looked for a dead car struck dog in the ditches. 1:00pm

I reasoned now that a body was what I was looking for, coyotes everywhere, feral hogs running all the creeks, mind racing. Called my dad and told him there just was not much else I knew to do but I was going to walk one last trail as far as I could go, call it good and head home. 1:45pm

Nothing but sore feet, briars and scratches, blew my whistle till my ears were ringing. Got in the car told my wife I would be home soon, she tried to tell me how sorry she was, I said I love you see you soon...defeated. 2:50pm

On my way out decided to make one more drive through where we last saw him, nothing. Went down a ways and pulled a u-turn to head home. Suddenly there was Wren sniffing around a bridge like a ghost! I floored the truck and jumped out calling, he turned and ran away from me scared to death! I followed him running 100 yards down a sand bar them turning, not sure it was me shaking in his skin. I would move forward and he would retreat turn and look! Finally I laid down on the ground and started baby talking "come on boy, come on". Suddenly he got it, it really was me and here he came!!! As he jumped into my arms I hooked in his lead and tried to pet him up. He was a different shade of red, covered in mud, and blood, and more burs than i have ever seen. They were embedded in his arm pits and belly, ears full, skin raw he could hardly let me pet him and his skin was too sore to allow me to pull them. He practically drug me to the truck and pawed, whining into the cab, a mess. 3:15pm

I spent over an hour with WD40 working the burs out, then a nice warm bath with moisturizers to sooth his skin. He had not slept all night, either running scared and lost, or running from the yotes he was literally falling asleep standing. Dried off and loved he now lays beside me asleep on the floor, and home. Still a bit skittish, and very sore, tired, and unsure but glad to be home; and boy did he greet the other dogs!!!

So now what? Can I ever hunt him again? Will this type of thing ruin him? Back to check cords and "here" overlaying the e-collar (I never had to use one with him yet) until he gets it so solid as to never bolt like this again? Start all the way back at the beginning, yard birds, and yard work to boost any confidence lost? His genetics are so good and he loves to hunt and loves to please he is "my" perfect dog, just not sure what to do next, other than let him sleep, and rest. Thanks for you input, I know I can't be the only one who has been through this.

Zerah Morris
580-583-2395

[briarpatch]

I've never owned a dog that ran that far off but recommend a very loud beeper collar perhaps even one of those GPS tracking devices just incase it happens again..

My buddy had a dog that would run off after deer and disappear for the night he quickly cured this with a longer range e-collar.. that dog knew the word come but chose to ignore it when ever he got the scent of a deer and learned quickly he could run outta range of the cheap e-collar my buddy first bought..once the better longer range collar was on the dog, wasn't long before he was cured of his deafness when on the scent of a deer suggest you buy a good quality tritronics if the dog does already know his commands..

[Sharon]

What did you mean by "his first solo hunt?" This might shed some light on what happened.

Are you saying he has been off checkcord, hunting many times in the past, and this is the first time this has happened?

He should be hunting for you/with you.

I could be wrong but something has gone amiss in his training.

............................................................................

I've never had a dog "take off" and I have big running trial dogs so I have trouble understanding your situation.. One setter likes to get in an extra half hour when she sees us heading for the car, but one bellow and she comes in.

[A/C Guy]

I have 2 Brits that are 1 year old and they also love to run deer and rabbits. The only thing that stops them is high level stimulation with the collar. On more than one occasion, they have taken off after deer or rabbits and the only way to stop them was with the collar. I only use the collar as a long range lead to reel them in if they decide to ignore the whistle or my verbal commands.

[Zerah Morris]

No sorry that sounded wrong. All his training so far in the field from 8 weeks on has been with no check cord. Only his yard work, "here" and "heel" were done on the check cord. When I said first solo hunt, I mean real hunt, gun, him, me with the intent on killing these wild coveys we have spent the last months pointing and flushing and wishing. He has never been run on any open country hunting or training areas with a check cord; he has never needed it. He picked up "heel" and "here" so quick on the short lead that we went to the check cord quickly and never had any problems in the field.

The GPS collar crossed my mind more than a few times over the last two days. I have a long range, high end e-collar but the dog has just never needed it. He goes everywhere with me, fishing, scouting, travel, family, kids at schools, work. Up until this his largest desire other than "where are the birds" has been "where is my master"!

Zerah Morris
580-583-2395

[Kmack]

"here's" fairly reliably

overlaying the e-collar (I never had to use one with him yet)

These two statements somewhat contradict each other.

If you don't mind my asking, without the e-collar, how do you intend to enforce your commands in the field? One of the main purposes of the e-collar is to extend the distance at which you can maintain control over your dog when off the check chord.

I recommend you seek help to teach your dog to "whoa" using the e-collar on the flank. This will provide a very reliable way to stop your dog whenever necessary.

It sounds like you have a very nice dog that still needs a lot of training.

[Kiki's Mom]

Zerah-

Have to admit I have been in the very same scenario as you on more then one occassion with a dog called "Omen". I was also in your exact shoes with her Sire, at roughly the same age as Wren ( perhaps a tad younger) he is DC Mokan Wild Mtn I'm Justa Gigolo.

Your dog learned an invaluable lesson this time...and was lucky. Chances are he is going to be a tad handy for a bit but as his confidence comes back so will his range.

I can share with you that Omen left me a total of 3 times in her life. The first time she was gone for better then a week in the middle of the hottest summer Reno had seen in a decade. She finally came out of the hills and into civilization when she got hungry enough to override her tremendous drive to self hunt ( my bad...the first dog I had ever worked with by myself and I let her get away with many many things I shouldn't have). She had found a pick up truck similar to mine with an open slider window and claimed the front seat as her refuge. The owner of the truck found her the morning of her 8th day gone and was greeted with a skinny, scared almost viscous Brittany guarding "her" truck. He enticed her out with some freshly made bacon and finally gave the number on her collar a call.

The second time she took off was in the middle of winter and this time she was gone for 4 days. She was found about a block from home and again was enticed up onto a neighbor's porch with the promise of a meal. I had spent three days tracking her in the snow worried sick. Again she was self hunting!

The third and final time she got gone was in the autumn time. Young valley quail were running like chickens everywhere and she was gone for 3 days. She was found about 2 miles inot the hills by some mountain bikers and she came in to them for water.....

Omen had incredible drive and would run herself into the ground. It was not until I met my husband when she was 4 years old or so that we finally got a handle on her. She LIVED to hunt and none of her "excursions" affected her drive to do so at any opportunity. Always upon return she would be spooky when picked up and then a tad clingy for a day or two afterwards but she always bounced back.

Her Sire, "Dutch" pulled the same stunt once and was gone well into the wee hours of the night. I did not give up on him for long though and had put both my jacket and his crate down for him before going home. Since he was my first Brittany show dog I couldn't sleep and went to check on that crate every couple of hours all night until I finally caught him. He was approx 5 -1/2 months old and I never turned him loose without a bell again.... at least until he was sent to the midwest for formal field training.

How well I know your heartache, self doubt and STRESS of the situation. Two suggestions:

1) Get a GPS unit for him. It is an invaluable tool we will never be without again....and more then worth the expense.
2) Yes, go back and thoroughly reinforce your "HERE", and your "come and GO WITH ME" commands. From experience I can tell you that putting a solid handle on your dog will save you heartache and maybe his life someday.

I was SO glad to get to the bottom of your story to learn that you got your beloved Wren back. Thank God.

[Don]

Seven months old. Dog was doing what you wanted in familuar surroundings because it was sure of itself. The new area and new conditions blew it away. I don't like to see a dog that young in a position like that, personnel opinion. Takes a lot longer to establish control without an e-collar than with. At seven month's he might have just been ready to start using the e-collar. Your biggest problem in my mind is you asked to much to soon. Very easy to watch a pup in familuar surroundings act like a dog. But without control, e-collar, at that age turning him loose is a prelude to a disaster.

The e-collar has brought about one thing that I think is negative in training, getting pups going much to soon. Were I you I'd get my pup going on that e-collar and spend the rest of this season hunting over your buddy's dog. Get a handle on the pup and next year you might have something. BTW, that is a darn nice photo of your pup, beautiful pup!

[wems2371]

Get a gps. I just got the older DC20 model and it sure is piece of mind.......to some degree. It's not going to save her from predators or a vehicle if she gets out on a roadway, but it will get you to her swiftly to prevent those things.

At 16 months my, dog has a solid recall off leash in the field, but there is one situation where that doesn't hold--and that's deer. About 3 weeks ago, we were working a gravel road ditch back to our truck. She was down in the right ditch, head down checking something out. A deer got up from the left side of the road, ran across the right ditch a couple hundred feet in front of her, and bolted across a harvested corn field and into some faraway timber. We thought she was safe, since the deer was out of sight. But she worked the left ditch, found the scent and started tracking a perfect path at a gallop, baying like a coonhound. She ignored the whistle, the yells, and even a couple gunshots fired to get her attention (and NO she's not gunshy in the least). The garmin tracked her at 1500' out before she got to the edge of the timber, and for whatever reason came running back to us.

I did not own an e-collar before, but decided to plunk down a couple hundred dollars at that point to get one. We have gone out a few times since, and I was just telling my husband today how ironic it was that now that we spent the money we weren't seeing deer anymore. Well, about 15 minutes later we saw two moving out in front of us. We were in some tall cover and Roxi never saw them. She did pick up the track for a hundred feet and then was back to birds. Thirty minutes after that, a doe bust up from her bedding spot about 30' in front of us. Roxi couldn't have been more than 30' from the deer. We were about 50' from a fence and some well grazed pasture land. The deer headed that direction. Roxi stared in awe for a second and then she was off. My husband was pulling the e-collar remote out of his pocket and I wasn't sure if he'd get it out in time before she hit the fence. She stopped promptly, right at the fence. Sure enough, he'd given her one momentary shock on the highest setting and she'd stopped on a dime and watched the deer run off. We were immediately back to working the field. While I don't care to use the e-collar for anything else, it was money well spent for trashbreaking. I don't know if trash animals are your issue, but if it is, I can testify how well the e-collar worked on its very first use. It sounds like she's tested you a couple times before, for whatever reason.

IMO you will have to back up now and start over slowly to see where she's at mentally........so you don't press her into something. Seven months is still so young, ours was still on/or dragging around a checkcord at that age and working small patches of my neighbors crp and alfalfa fields. I'd let her be a pup, work on the obedience, and maybe plant some birds in a controlled environment to let her build her confidence if it's now an issue. I am glad to hear that you got her back. I think I skipped half your sentences to get to the end of your post and see that you found her. Good luck and take it slow. Denise

[sjhauge]

Buy the garmin. It's a peace of mind that is priceless. My GSP 11month pup got out to 460 yards chasing wild birds a couple weeks ago when his normal range has been 125 yards max. Found him over the top of the hill, called him in & resumed the hunt. They are worth every cent & then some.

[shags]

I'd be asking Santa for a good reliable ecollar that consistently works at range for Wren, and I'd beg him for an Astro for yourself.

What a scary weekend! I'm glad you got your dog back.

[gar-dog]

Seven months old. Dog was doing what you wanted in familuar surroundings because it was sure of itself. The new area and new conditions blew it away. I don't like to see a dog that young in a position like that, personnel opinion. Takes a lot longer to establish control without an e-collar than with. At seven month's he might have just been ready to start using the e-collar.

I am not terribly experienced as a trainer, but this was exactly what I was thinking when I read the post.

[Zerah Morris]

Thanks all for your replies! At this point we are just blessed to have him back and his demeanor is already coming back. My guilt would have been endless if he had got hurt or worse...

I really was trying to avoid the e-collar. The dog is NOT soft in any way, much the opposite toughest dog I have ever been around...but he just picks everything up so fast! His desire to please me is only matched by his desire to find birds. In reflection I realize that while he has learned what I want in the yard and training field, because he has made so few mistakes and taken so naturally to what I asked him to do, he has never really been tested in high stress situations. The e-collar is charging and this week we go back to the check cord and the basics, no birds for a bit, and then birds as distractions with the collar and cord till he know that no matter what gear he is in "here" is IT. Thanks again.

Zerah Morris
580-583-2395

[ezzy333]

One other question that I think I know the answer to but it wasn't explained for sure. Had you been shooting over the pup before this? I'm sure you had but when you said he disappeared soon after you shot, I just wanted to make sure. Also the fact that he was scared badly made me wonder also. Just another angle to think about.

Ezzy

[ACooper]

I see you have a 580 area code, what WMA were you hunting?

[Kmack]

Those are some great photos of one nice looking pup...

[Zerah Morris]

Ezzy,
yes he has been shot over and around since he was 10 weeks. He also sat for retrieves through dove season so he is oblivious to the gun at this stage.

ACooper,
we were in the Waurika WMA in for the first time ever, we train in the Wichita Mountain Refuge, and I normally hunt Lugert and Sandy Sanders, as well as a few thousand acres or private land, just thought I would go down to check it out, never go there again!

Kmack,
thanks he is a joy and I am glad to have him back in one piece!



Zerah Morris
580-583-2395

[Kiki's Mom]

Zerah - I can't get over how PRETTY he is......what is his breeding again? He is really my cup of tea to look at based on your pics....

[Zerah Morris]

Kiki,
Wrens sire is the son of 9xAm Fld Ch/NFC/DC/AFC Gamblers Ace In The Hole and (dam) DC Bet'n She'll Fly JH, his bitch is the daughter of (sire) Nolan's Last Bullet and (dam) Beeline Highroller. I need to do that virtual pedigree thing I guess but you get the idea.

Zerah Morris
580-583-2395

[ezzy333]

He is a beautiful pup and Gamblers Ace in the Hole is one of the greats in my mind.

Ezzy

[Sharon]

LOl Now there's a pedigree. It's that white chest that sets him off.

[gar-dog]

I love that pic of him on the first page charging along with his tongue hanging out!

[Zerah Morris]

Hello all added the whole pedigree thing to my sig for those that were looking. Thanks again for all the feedback, I think I may have been more spooked than Wren was! For now we are just going to back up to the basics of yard work and overlay the e-collar. The Astro is officially at the top of the x-mas list!

[Kiki's Mom]

Well...I guess that explains my attraction to your pup. ""Rocky" (Gambler's Ace in the Hole) was a good one. We carry alot of Rocky in our lines around here too....in fact, my Avatar dog, King is a Rocky grandson too We also have a direct son of Rocky coming up ( Ricky...not up on the website yet) and a grandaughter in our kennel who just recently finished her bench championship (Jade - who IS on the website)

You know....without seeing him in person, I still feel you have a gorgeous pup on your hands. Based on what you are telling us about his field ability so far and the great pics you have posted, you ought to consider making a call to David Downing ( I'm assuming you are in Oklahoma? David is one of the few handlers in your area that does both the field and the show handling stuff) and seeing if he wouldn't mind doing an evaluation of your pup for you if you were inclined to try to get a title or two on your very pretty boy. I'm thinking that perhaps you have a potential Dual Champion on your hands David owns a dog named Jammer who is closely related to your dog. Jammer is also a Dual Champion. http://www.blueridgebrittanys.com

We are sooo glad you got the boy back !!!! Best of luck with him no matter what you decide to do with him in the future

[Zerah Morris]

Thanks Kiki! I was really just got him to be a meat dog and share my life fishing, hunting, hiking, photography, go everywhere with me. So far he has lived up to it and more! The more people that see him and the more people who watch him work the more people tell me I am crazy for not thinking about seeing if he has the potential to trial and show, I guess I should give it some thought...

[gonehuntin']

Have you considered the possibility that the dog is gun shy? That's certainly what you're describing in your post, or so it sounds like. If that's not it, and you're sure it's not, then de-bolt him. It's time.

[Zerah Morris]

gonehuntin'.
I am positive he is not gun shy. He was properly gun conditioned young over many weeks and has been shot over many times on pigeons and during dove season, if anything it ramps up his enthusiasm as he now knows a bird will soon be on the ground! I am thinking the shot spooked a deer I did not see and he did so away he went. He was scared senseless when I found him the next day but a night in the wild being run by coyotes and hogs, wondering where I was, and likely being tried to be picked up by whomever happened by (a major road runs thorough the WMA), gives me good reason to believe he was not sure it was me, b/c once he figured it out he hauled it straight to my arms loving it up! In addition when I saw him running mid day, the day I lost him, a half mile away through the binoculars he was still running birds, unfortunately he was in bump and chase mode, not point and wonder where the gun is; I think the term might be self hunting.

Yes after a few days of recovery and play the "de-bolting" will begin slowly of course, with lots of fun in between and at the end of the day as everyday out with him has been. I have no need to track deer, collapse both lungs and turn the heart inside out and they just do not go that far and leave a heck of a nice blood trail...all about anatomy and shot placement.

[briarpatch]

I have to disagree a bit with a few of the posts on this thread
I think your pup if training has progressed as you say, it is the perfect age to get it into the field into actual hunting conditions..
My pups have now gotten 8 pheasants and 3 quail under them on state WMA' S 1 is 6 1/2 months and the other 8 1/2 months old and pointed, I can't even count how many birds I missed or couldn't shoot at due to other hunters being near (unsafe to Shoot) or refused to shoot because the one of pups bumped..if anyone here hunts NJ you know how crazy it can get with other hunters out there on our wma's at times..
I see daily improvement in them while hunting though, my little Belle gave me solid points on 3 quail today of which I got 2 and Cal had rock solid staunch points on serveral quail of which I got 1 .. I certainly am no pro trainer, I am not even a good trainer, but I think this the best time to get a pup into the woods in actual hunting conditions, think between 5-9 months old is perfect if they have had their proper yard work before that..and from what you stated it certainly sounds like your pup has had that..



think with a little e-collar back up your pup will be fine if your pup knows his commands as you have stated.. I personally Still would spend the bucks on the GPS if I had a dog hunting that kind of range though just as a back up..

but thats just my opinion, and as I said before I sure ain't no pro..

[gonehuntin']

I'm glad to hear he isn't gun shy. That really simplifies your problem. The first thing you'll do is to put him through a debolting program. Next, teach him whoa. Third, steady him to flush. Chasing birds is of absolutely no value to a pointing dog and only adds problems to later training. Those three things will cure your problem and leave you with a darn nice hunting dog.

[Buford Boone]

Good luck with Wren.

While I don't want to cause any discomfort to my dog, the ecollar is more for her comfort than pain. When she does what she is supposed to do, she has comfort.

The Garmin Astro is to help me know not only where she is, but also when to apply electronic correction...and how much. I'd buy another in a minute.

Yeah, I'd probably still hunt her if either failed. The fact is that both work well and provide me peace of mind when enjoying a day with her.

I fully realize I may be using electronics to compensate for a lack of training ability but I'm willing to accept it to reduce chances of loosing my friend.

While the time spent hunting is priceless, I'd keep her even if we could never hunt again. Having her in my life is a gift that I won't take unnecessary chances of losing.

[Greg Jennings]

E-collar and Garmin Astro.

You don't have a snowball's chance in hades of breaking a dog off running trash, which sounds like is part of what happened, without one.

An e-collar is a tool. Use it with a reasonable amount of wisdom and it'll be a great asset.

Greg J.