Hunting field trial dogs

[Champ]

I was wondering if anyone hunts their field trial pointing dogs? Not just once in a while or off of horseback, but hunting them often on foot. I am fascinated to see how much success you have or how you go about it. I regularly hunt with three trial dogs and our success rate is not very good. All three dogs wear beep collars set on beep when point only, and of course also have e collars. The primary bird we hunt a pheasants and with the dogs range, when we hear the collars and the time it takes for us to get to the dog, the bird has either ran off or flushed wild. I am convinced pheasant hunting with trial dogs is a losing proposition. I know the solution is to have hunting dogs for hunting and trial dogs for trialing, but the trial dogs are the only ones we own and I love to hunt so I take them out. Just wondering if anyone else has a similar situation and if their success rate is similar to mine.

[jgf@gratiot]

We do mainly walking trials and occassionaly some weekend HB trials with the same dogs. Our dogs are gunned over all fall both in the woods and a trip out west. IMO this is how dogs are made, hunting or trialing. We hunt primarily grouse and woodcock, and also make a nice trip to ND for sharptails and huns. In the woods we use a bell, and on the prairie they run with only the ecollar. Pheasants could be a little trickier as they are in the open, and run like ******** but we also encounter some of the same things with grouse; they run, they flush before you get there, but at the end of the day we usually have enough oppurtunities to gun plenty of birds for the dogs. Trial or not I would still want the same kind of dog to gun over. Heres some pics from our hunting trip with good success http://s230.photobucket.com/albums/ee24 ... 309204.pbw or go to my blog link on my signature line to see some more neat pics. Good luck!

[ElhewPointer]

Derek,

You know you can. This is such a misconception. Big running trial dogs can still be great hunters. To be honest, my young dogs are hunting dogs before they make the grade for trialling. I am fortunate enough to live in the midwest where there are a decent number of wild birds. My dog that just won the Arkansas Shooting Dog Ch. went to Texas quail hunting of foot and North Dakota grouse hunting of foot. If they won't listen and mind you at 100 yds, how they heck are they going to handle at 400 yds. Plus, wild birds are the best thing for those dogs. I have a nice young pup that runs BIG and she is going up with me to South Dakota this week for the last weekend of pheasant season. As far as success goes. Success is different to everyone. I don't count success as a pile of birds at the end of the day. But if you bag a few birds that were pointed and retrieved(yes, I said retrieved, no FF either), and maybe a few good points on hens, then that is a successful day to me.

Another thing that affects your success is the ground you hunt. If you are hunting the same ground a lot, those pheasants know the game. If you were hunting quail then your "success" would be better.

[slistoe]

Completely opposite experience to yours here. We hunt only from foot. The best hunting dogs I ever walked behind were the best trial dogs - Horseback Shooting Dog stakes - and bred from Horseback All Age parents. Pheasants, Sharptail, Huns or Ruffed Grouse, the dogs don't really seem to care. They point them, I shoot them. We get more than enough action to keep us all satisfied.

FC Vindalbakken's Lady Lightning with Vindalbakken's Penny Ante backing.


When you say trial dogs, what type of trials do you run and how successful are you?

[Sharon]

Every chance I get - grouse in the fall, released pheasant ( all we got), huns out west. Dog works for me, not the other way around . They can tell the difference ( 2 setters). We also participate in Shooting Dog Stakes every chance we get. Dogs have done well. Two dogs on pheasant works better, although in trials you regularly get there before the pheasant flushes so........

[gar-dog]

Chase: for pheasants, which tend to run, I don't imagine you are way off base. While a dog may hold point forever,the pheasant won't allow himself to be pinned as long as other game birds. But as you can see, many have success. While your dog may wait for you, a pheasant wont necessarily be so accommodating.

[R-Heaton]

I was wondering if anyone hunts their field trial pointing dogs?

Why would you risk hurting your expensive trial dog running him in unpredictable or uncontrollable situations, when you can do the same thing with a pigeon in your backyard.

[NE Vizsla]

I was wondering if anyone hunts their field trial pointing dogs?

Why would you risk hurting your expensive trial dog running him in unpredictable or uncontrollable situations, when you can do the same thing with a pigeon in your backyard.

I think because he likes to hunt and all he has is trial dogs to hunt with. I believe a dog can do both however Roosters give any dog trouble trial or not.

[mudhunter]

I was wondering if anyone hunts their field trial pointing dogs?

Why would you risk hurting your expensive trial dog running him in unpredictable or uncontrollable situations, when you can do the same thing with a pigeon in your backyard.

Im pretty new to trialing dogs, not to hunting, but if a dog can ONLY handle a bird in a controlled situation, like a pigeon in a launcher, that dog sounds useless to me for trialing or hunting. Like I said I'm new to trials but many of the big Pros take their dogs to the prairies to get them on wild birds, it seems to work for them.

[slistoe]

I know the solution is to have hunting dogs for hunting and trial dogs for trialing,

By the way, that is no solution at all.

[slistoe]

Chase: for pheasants, which tend to run, I don't imagine you are way off base. While a dog may hold point forever,the pheasant won't allow himself to be pinned as long as other game birds. But as you can see, many have success. While your dog may wait for you, a pheasant wont necessarily be so accommodating.

My experience has been that fast moving dogs who quest for body scent on the edges of cover then go from 30 to zero in one stride are much more successful in getting pheasants to hunker down tight and not move for fear of detection.

[Champ]

Elhew Pointer, you are correct in stating your opinion on success must be defined. Maybe it's because I have always hunted behind big runners my definition is different than someone who wants to fill their limit every time out. I certainly makes the times where the dog stretches out, the point is made, the rooster holds, is killed and the retrieve made all the more special.
But, by hunting these kind of dogs we must realize those situations don't happen as often as a quartering gun range pointing dog. The point of my post was to get other hunting field trialers on here and just hear their opinions on the subject. And R-Heaton, I think you may have stated the answer to my question best of all and I don't take offense to your post. Why put a competition dog in situations you cannot control??? Believe me I have had this conversation 100 times with my hunting buddies. But I am still a hunter at heart and these are the dogs I choose so right or wrong out the door and in the kennel they go hunting with me. And next I will open up the complex topic of how do you hunt a dog broke on wild birds (pheasants).....

[slistoe]

And next I will open up the complex topic of how do you hunt a dog broke on wild birds (pheasants).....

I drive to the area that I have permission to hunt on. I get out my gear, get all dressed and loaded up, open the dog box and blow the whistle on the dogs. Then I walk where I think I should given the area. When the dogs pin some birds I get to shoot, with any luck at all they get to retrieve. Then we go home.

[Champ]

I know the solution is to have hunting dogs for hunting and trial dogs for trialing,

By the way, that is no solution at all.

slistoe, think again. I disagree, as this is the ultimate solution to this question. If you want to achieve the highest levels in training, broke to wing and shot, retrieve to hand, stop to flush, etc... you must always try to put your dog in controllable situations. These are the trial dogs. Highly trained, big runners, with the goal to be perfect every time out. Now with hunting dogs, if you want to bag a lot of birds, a close working quartering dog who still covers a lot of ground but stays in range will clean up a field. If dead bird numbers are you measuring stick the quartering dog will produce while the trial dog will also produce but not near as many. It's a good thing shooting a lot of birds is not my goal or I would be failing miserably.

[jgf@gratiot]

Why would you risk hurting your expensive trial dog running him in unpredictable or uncontrollable situations, when you can do the same thing with a pigeon in your backyard.

I was wondering if anyone hunts their field trial pointing dogs?

Why would you risk hurting your expensive trial dog running him in unpredictable or uncontrollable situations, when you can do the same thing with a pigeon in your backyard.

A pigeon, come on!. How about real bird dogs, one's that find wild birds. Trial dog or not they better be able to find and handle wild birds to be worth something to me. So they can find a pigeon in your backyard, must be worth big money. How about them all age prairie dogs, I bet they never get run on wild birds If you were joking I apologize in advance.

[R-Heaton]

but many of the big Pros take their dogs to the prairies to get them on wild birds

Or do they do it to escape the heat and humidity of the South that time of year. Its interesting if you do the math,,,, 1 pro takes 30+ dogs to look at and run,,,, he is gone for 60 days: 2 day drive, 5 days to get camp set up and dogs acclamated, probably a min. of 3 trials all of which are 1 week long 70 to 80 dogs, 2 days to pack up camp and 2 days home. So that alone brings us to about 30 days to work dogs. You can only run until noon so lets say you run 2 at a time thats about 10 dogs a day,,, your dog gets run once every 4 days thats 7 times in 30 days. I think they do it to get away from there wives and the beer drinking.

[Sharon]

E. " And next I will open up the complex topic of how do you hunt a dog broke on wild birds (pheasants)".....

You are a part of the team too. I don't want my broke dog moving out with the pheasant, but I don't have to stand there. I can move and shut off the pheasant's escape. My dog stays put and watches for that exciting flush. In trials the pheasant somehow is flushed while the dog holds. It can be done.

[slistoe]

I know the solution is to have hunting dogs for hunting and trial dogs for trialing,

By the way, that is no solution at all.

slistoe, think again. I disagree, as this is the ultimate solution to this question. If you want to achieve the highest levels in training, broke to wing and shot, retrieve to hand, stop to flush, etc... you must always try to put your dog in controllable situations. These are the trial dogs. Highly trained, big runners, with the goal to be perfect every time out. Now with hunting dogs, if you want to bag a lot of birds, a close working quartering dog who still covers a lot of ground but stays in range will clean up a field. If dead bird numbers are you measuring stick the quartering dog will produce while the trial dog will also produce but not near as many. It's a good thing shooting a lot of birds is not my goal or I would be failing miserably.

You ask a question, but won't accept the answer. Why ask?

I disagree with virtually everything you have said. A great trial dog is a great hunting dog. The same skill sets are required. Running your dogs in a trial is not a controlled situation. If you want a dog that is reliable in all circumstances train for it. Then it matters not the circumstance that your dogs find themselves in when hunting, they will be reliable. Hunting your trial dogs only helps reinforce the training for reliable manners.

As far as success while hunting, I have never felt disadvantaged because I have been hunting my "trial" dogs in the field with any other dog. I have many times stated that I have never hunted behind as good of dogs in the field as I did since I started trialing. Not that the dogs themselves were any better, but that they were conditioned, trained and experienced to a much higher level than they ever were before. So you aren't selling me the "clean up the field" story.

How successful are your trial dogs when you trial them?

[slistoe]

but many of the big Pros take their dogs to the prairies to get them on wild birds

Or do they do it to escape the heat and humidity of the South that time of year. Its interesting if you do the math,,,, 1 pro takes 30+ dogs to look at and run,,,, he is gone for 60 days: 2 day drive, 5 days to get camp set up and dogs acclamated, probably a min. of 3 trials all of which are 1 week long 70 to 80 dogs, 2 days to pack up camp and 2 days home. So that alone brings us to about 30 days to work dogs. You can only run until noon so lets say you run 2 at a time thats about 10 dogs a day,,, your dog gets run once every 4 days thats 7 times in 30 days. I think they do it to get away from there wives and the beer drinking.

You haven't been North with the pros have you. Although it is a small sampling (I have run with 4 different ones), I can assure you that if I didn't live where they come to train I would certainly send a dog with them I needed worked and wouldn't feel the least bit that I wasn't getting my money's worth.

[glk7243]

Why would you risk hurting your expensive trial dog running him in unpredictable or uncontrollable situations, when you can do the same thing with a pigeon in your backyard.

Geesshhh Rich,

Just cuz it's a blizzard today that's no reason you couldn't have headed out today and worked your trial dogs on a pigeon.
I stayed home today too.

Gary

Here's some pigeons I saw yesterday

[Sharon]

He's new and "just a pup" gentlemen . Give him a break. He gets to question the answers he gets. That's how you learn, Been there. He's probably long gone though so no need to worry.

[Yawallac]

Why would you risk hurting your expensive trial dog running him in unpredictable or uncontrollable situations, when you can do the same thing with a pigeon in your backyard.

Kinda nice having another smartie on the site besides me.

[DGFavor]

Why would you risk hurting your expensive trial dog running him in unpredictable or uncontrollable situations, when you can do the same thing with a pigeon in your backyard.

Troublemaker. You must be stuck inside today.

If you were joking I apologize in advance.

I'm tellin' on ya' man - for those that don't know, Rich has got some the best, most avidly, intensely hunted bird dogs trained/broke entirely on wild birds...and they just happen to also win an array of FT championships...but one could easily, easily argue that's largely because of his excellent scout. He's got a covey of huns that live in his dog kennels for hells sakes - how do you compete with that??

Looks like Secret Spot #44-B Gary!

[jgf@gratiot]

Good to know, sad thing is there are some that truly beleive his statement about the pigeons lol. Great weather days like this always make for interesting conversation.

[jgf@gratiot]

Thats to much $$$$$$ to risk on a wild bird

Wouldn't want to go and take a bird dog and have him find one of them wild birds. The breed could take a step backwards if that starts happening

[DGFavor]

Great weather days like this always make for interesting conversation.

You'll fit right in!!

Whoswho?...Whose who?...who is who?... Ya' better get back out and shovel some snow cause there's more on yer way!

[R-Heaton]

but one could easily, easily argue that's largely because of his excellent scout

We all know what makes a good scout is a good horse,,, its been impressive to watch my man go wide open through chukar country,,,, what keeps the horse from falling who know's,,, but all the screaming and girlie noises coming from the rider doesn't help I'm sure.

Gary,,, nice looking pics,, how's the lil' red dog coming,,looks like your getting him into some birds.

Its flat coming down today. You would think after a day like this my house would be clean and my laundry folded and put away,,,, but I bet at the end of the day it will look about the same. Might clean my gun though,,, nah.

[47sgs]

If many trial dogs are basically trained on wild birds, why wouldn't most trialers just use the wild bird hunting as an extension of their training, reenforcing everything they work on with their dogs? Seems like hunting would be an invaluable experience for the dog, while being fun for the hunter.
One question I have is, when I hunt for extended periods of time, my dogs learn to pace themselves, at a pace much slower than they trial . It hasn't slowed them down once in a trial again, but has anyone experience their dog hunting at a sustainable pace, and had it carry over to field trials?

[slistoe]

I like the look of a flat out dog in the field - always did even before I started to trial. So I generally hunt a pair for about a 2 or 2 1/2 hour stint then trade for another pair. That covers the morning and then they will see another 2 hour stint in the afternoon. That about covers it for a 10 hour hunting day. I have had enough walking by then.

Trouble is that lately I have had 8 dogs to run counting the young and old ones - I have been running out of daylight to get them all down (not to mention legs).

[Yawallac]

Great post!

I think your initials are R-H.

[glk7243]

We all know what makes a good scout is a good horse,,, its been impressive to watch my man go wide open through chukar country,,,, what keeps the horse from falling who know's,,, but all the screaming and girlie noises coming from the rider doesn't help I'm sure.

Now that's funny. I thought the stories you tell me about Doug I was supposed to keep them private.

Gary,,, nice looking pics,, how's the lil' red dog coming,,looks like your getting him into some birds.

Good news...she is finding birds. Bad news.....she is usually a 1/2 mile away

Its flat coming down today. You would think after a day like this my house would be clean and my laundry folded and put away,,,, but I bet at the end of the day it will look about the same. Might clean my gun though,,, nah.

I thought that was your girlfriends job.

[Brushbustin Sporting Dogs]

I would never take a trial dog hunting. I would hate to undo all the hard work that i have put into mine in the back yard. If you want a hunting dog buy one. But if you want a good trial dog your going to have to shell out big money for the pup and then all the training that go's into them. Thats to much $$$$$$ to risk on a wild bird. not worth it at all to me. Hunting and trialing dogs are 2 totally different animals. Kinda like the difference between a show pointer and a hunting pointer. One is born to play games and the other is born to hunt. IMO

Makes zero sense to me to not hunt a BIRDDOG. How is there to much to risk on a wild bird??? So your saying that there are show dogs,hunting dogs, and trial dogs that are to be used just for that nothing else they can't step out of the box and try other things?? We'll I need to go home and let this news to my dogs. I thought they were bird dogs but seems like they need to decide if there hunting dogs or trial dogs and decide what they want to do cause they sure as heck can't do both!!!!

Just don't get it if you own them hunt them mine don't get as much time in the field as theyd like take away hunting them they might start to hate me. I shoot lots of birds over my "trial dogs" ya I might have to put some manners back on them to get them around clean but thats part of it I guess. Just enjoy my dogs to much to let them sit in a kennel only to be let out when I go to a trial.

My dogs are biddable they act and do what I ask out of them....

Rob

[DGFavor]

Keep it up Gary and Rich and I'm gonna keep Secret Spot #72 to myself.





47sgs - I haven't noticed the pacing at all when competition season rolls around. In addition to the other competition benefits you mention from hunting, the tremendous aerobic base the dogs build up hunting 3-4 hour stints up to a few times a week for 5 months straight of huntings season carries 'em well thru the spring dog games season. I've always had more trouble "hangin' on" to the dogs in the spring because they are just so much more aerobically fit. The weather we're having out here this hunting season is probably gonna show up in the lesser condition of our dogs come spring time - or maybe they'll just be well rested!

[DSemple]

I was wondering if anyone hunts their field trial pointing dogs? The primary bird we hunt a pheasants and with the dogs range, when we hear the collars and the time it takes for us to get to the dog, the bird has either ran off or flushed wild. I am convinced pheasant hunting with trial dogs is a losing proposition.

I'm just a hunter who has always bought big running field trial bred pups for my hunting dogs. 30 days a year we do nothing but Pheasant hunt.

You don't need to change what you hunt, but where you hunt them. The majority of Pheasants will hold all day long if you hunt them in the right type of cover.

It is very common for us to have 30 to 40 points a day from each of my dogs, and I have seen many a 60 to 80 find days.

You owe me a bottle of Jack. .....Don

[Champ]

slistoe," I disagree with virtually everything you have said. A great trial dog is a great hunting dog. The same skill sets are required." You can't be serious by stating that. You have to know that there are extremely different skills in trialing than in hunting. It seems elementary for me to tell you that a trial dog runs lines. Hit a line and finish it, any quartering in the field and you are done in the judges eyes. Now I am not saying that a trial dog cannot make a great hunting dog. I think my dog is pretty great sometimes. Also remember this thread was about hunting pheasants with trial dogs. Trial dogs can do some amazing things when hunting wild birds. It is just different then a close working quartering gun dog. I am not bashing either type of dog. My dog just happens to run lines, points with intensity and whether the rooster is still there when I get there is the excitement in it. Also, why would you ask how my dogs do in trials???? What does that have to do with the topic? Ask me again though and I might tell you because I am pretty proud of that too.

[DGFavor]

Might vary with the part of the country you are in Champ. Can you tell us where you are from and what your typical trial grounds are like vs. your typical hunting areas. Out in our parts, there is no discernible difference IMO in our dogs applications hunting or trialing but the grounds we do both activities on are frequently one and the same. I'm for sure not saying we do very good at either activity but the only difference between the two is the carrying of a shotgun with some live shells in our pockets when we are hunting vs. a blank gun training/trialing.

[Duane M]

Anyone else smell Troll???

[Champ]

DGFavor, I am in Nebraska, and I would say the trial grounds are quite different than my hunting grounds. The trial grounds have distinct lines, tree rows, fence lines etc.. They even mow for hay the open areas even more creating the lines. Our hunting ground consists of either wide open CRP grasslands or draws within cropland. When a dog that hunts lines gets into a draw, watch out, zoom to the end. And my dog in a CRP field is an open invitation to find the other side. Although I must admit I love watching my dog in either, but it leads back to my original post which is how do you hunt wild pheasant with a trial dog.

[Duane M]

Ya hunt em like this silly: You let the dog out, the dog finds the bird, ya shoot the bird, ya take a pic of the dog with the bird(s):


Then ya eat the bird. That girl is bred Doublecross Slim and Rebel Wrangler BTW and she does just fine on em

[Duane M]

[Wa Chukar Hunter]

Gary - Only a 1/2 mile? She must have shortened up a bit since SD

Bad weather Whatcha talking about? We were about 65-70F here and me and my son worked some dogs and put a new floor in my horse trailer.

I hunt all my trial dogs when I get a chance - we hunted 7 or 8 days in SD over about 14 trial dogs. It was a good time.

Rich - Are you serious? Some pros work from daylight to dark on the prairies.

[birdsandbirds]

[/quote]

Yes thats why i only have one trial dog. We have a trial every year called the "Road Ranger Classic" its invite only. It features what we consider are the best dogs in the nation. Its ran alot like that ames trial. 20 minute braces on wild barn pigeons over layded with a heavy dose of pheasent scent. It is a fully broke stake. Handlers ride fourwheelers not horses. The course is a very grueling 25 acre field with heavy cover. There is a given path for the scout and handler to stay on. The scout normally drives the fourwheeler and makes sure they stay on course. The handler rides on the same fourwheeler but keeps an eye on the dog handling him with a whistle. There are 35 birds planted the first brace and after that there are only three. It is judged identical to ames. We occasionally do call backs if its just to close to call.[/quote]


I bet this is a FUN trial. I have heard only the best dogs in the country are invited too.

[glk7243]

Gary - Only a 1/2 mile? She must have shortened up a bit since SD

No, not getting shorter Keith. The difference is it was flat in SD, plus you had a horse to run her down.

[ezzy333]

Seems we have lost our ability to answer a question and instead we have decided to use the post to kid around within the group of good old boys. I too enjoy that but I believe it would only be right to do it on your own thread instead of using someone elses.

Since this isn't going anywhere now it is being locked and Champ, you can start a new one if you like and maybe the rest of you could start one too if you are bored.

Ezzy