Pointing styles judged.

[Ruffshooter]

What is used to judge a dogs pointing Style in a field trial.

Having participated in just a couple "field trials, AF/AKC" and a couple dozen NSTRA trials and bunch of Hunt tests what is required for a dog to receive or be judged as winning type point (along with the rest of the run)?

I ask becausae Intensity shows up in different ways in different dogs.

An old classic Setter or even pointer used to have the straight as a board on the back point. There are still some of those today.

Many GSP still have the board point.

Brittanies end up with a lot of both.

And of course the Setter and Pointers with the high head and high tail or level head and ll:00 tail etc.

Just curious what the judges are looking for. Are they looking for what they like or just the dead in the eye and frozen intenisty?

Thanks
Rick

[larue]

Style on point is subjective,and plays a role in judging a field trial,but is a small portion of a dogs day.
That being said.extreme style on point is a plus,while a dog who is loses style or flags is going to hurt the dogs standings.
I would put it simply,style is part of the picture,along with all the rest that goes with a dogs run,as is quality of finds,nose,handling,steadiness,ect.

[slistoe]

Intensity is more important than style. It is rare that differences in style between two intense and focused dogs would be the sole determiner of the winner and loser. There are simply too many factors that come into play. If it does come down to that, there is no hard and fast rule. The interpretation of the judge of the day determines it. My interpretation of style is a dog that looks proud on his birds and holds himself with lofty pride through the shot.

[Don]

Style without intensity is wasted on me. Intensity is an indication of desire. Style could be a pretty girl that can't cook.

[slistoe]

It is pretty hard to have style without intensity. Intensity is the base on which style is built.

But there are stylish dogs that don't hunt worth a lick, and that is a waste of style.

[Don]

I have seen to many dogs that stand tall and look good standing there that have no intensity. If you watch many of those dogs, some let down if the handler turns his back. What Walker used to do to get a dog standing up better is shuffle his feet as he approached the dog. He'd taught the dogs to stand up more by lifting them with his toe in training. But when he'd leave the dog, the dog would drop again to where it was. A guy I knew very well that did Britt's, used to work on taking the intensity out but keeping the dog up. Everyone claimed his dogs had a lot of style but I never saw it. What it looked like to me was a dog a breeze could blow over. His reason for doing that was if the dog had to much intensity, it was a heartbeat away from breaking and would when the bird was flushed. I never agreeded with that notion. But then he did have the All Age Dog of the Year in the NW Field Trial Assoc. How I don't know, that dog that he was winning with was the classic Brittany indicator.

[myerstenn]

What is used to judge a dogs pointing Style in a field trial.

From a competitive standpoint you need both style and intensity, in a trial you are trying to find dogs that have superior qualities, ie desire to locate and find game , an animated and searchind race, biddable and loftiness on both ends. A dog that has intensity but no style probably wouldnt place very high in a field trial . The difference in being competive and winning in trials is understanding what qualites the dog needs to posesses to win.

[Ruffshooter]

Hard to tell from this photo can't really see the shaking and eyes. In your opinion; Which one has the most intensitiy and Style On Point, (both are pointing the same bird Not an honor) and Why?

[ezzy333]

The difference in being competive and winning in trials is understanding what qualites the dog needs to posesses to win.

And here I always thought is was the better dog that day in the judges opinion that won. Pointing style and intensity is the icing on the cake that makes it prettier than the other cakes. And of the two intensity is by far the most important IMO.

Ezzy

[ezzy333]

Ray, I took one of the double posts down and you must have taken the other one at the same time. Sorry!!!! Hope you still have it.

Ezzy

[Don]

Hard to tell from this photo can't really see the shaking and eyes. In your opinion; Which one has the most intensitiy and Style On Point, (both are pointing the same bird Not an honor) and Why?

I would say definately the shorthair. The setter looks nice but is just standing there' style but no intensity. The shorthair looks ridgid and streached out a bit. I would bet in a better photo we'd see the shorthairs mussle's poping.

Had to go find this. Look at the setter in your photo then the setter in mine. Both stanring up on point. One has style the other style and intensity, at least I think so. Look at the ears and the mussel's. Look at the eyes.

[ezzy333]

I agree with Don. Two fairly stylish points but one with some intensity and the other one appears to be just a stop.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

Hard to tell from this photo can't really see the shaking and eyes. In your opinion; Which one has the most intensitiy and Style On Point, (both are pointing the same bird Not an honor) and Why?

Sorry, impossible to tell in a photo. But the one thing I do find odd in that photo is your assessment that the dogs are both pointing the same bird. Is the Setter looking at the bird?

[romeo212000]

To me style while important is secondary to intensity and can vary depending on how a dog hits scent. I remember watching a dog run down wind of a bird and then just as he got down wind immediately whirled around sideways and skidded about 5 feet. He wound up almost on his belly because he was trying to stop himself but refused to move an inch and held his tail high, his nostrils were flaring, and his neck was stretched out toward the scent. Not a point worth painting, but to see the whole event take place out a grin on everyone's face who saw it. He scored pretty high on that point, and rightly so.

[romeo212000]

Hard to tell from this photo can't really see the shaking and eyes. In your opinion; Which one has the most intensitiy and Style On Point, (both are pointing the same bird Not an honor) and Why?

Sorry, impossible to tell in a photo. But the one thing I do find odd in that photo is your assessment that the dogs are both pointing the same bird. Is the Setter looking at the bird?

My question exactly.

[Ruffshooter]

I know they are both points because the GSP is mine and I was her handler. Both dogs came to this bird within two seconds of each other. The setter was there first, My dog should have honored a few yards earlier. As usual she did not. The GSP hit the scent and slammed to a point. The Setter was running hard and came to a quick stop/point. They are both looking at the bird. The wind was heading to kind of at from the bottom right of the page to almost between the dogs as I recall.(just beyond the little bump of land. The bird is down the hill about at the edge of the photo. That was a fun brace. Neither dog won that day, split field but it was the fastest paced most competitve, evenly matched of the day. Hard rain.

[live4point]

I have never been a fan of what I would call field trial style,it just doesn't appeal to me.What I mean by that is standing straight legged and tall with the head back,when I see a photo of a dog like this it doesn't even look like they are pointing to me,it looks like they are just standing there.I like to see a dog crouched down low,lips curled back,that screams intensity to me.I prefer intensity over what many refer to as style any day.

[Neil Mace]

I have always believed that the best bird finding dogs had the pride Mr. Listoe speaks of, those with the most pride had the highest head and tail, so when we bred the best to the best, the high part came along.

I trip to the Bird Dog Museum will show you photographic proof that many dogs have always had a high head and tail, going back to the early 1900's, it was the painters that put them level, as that was what the owners wanted. It is said, Ames used to push the tail down on his dogs.

I do know that I have never seen a dog that has been beaten or shocked into pointing, do so with a high head and tail, and that is why it is important to me. Anyone can get a dog to point if they do not worry about style.

Neil

[myerstenn]

The difference in being competive and winning in trials is understanding what qualites the dog needs to posesses to win.

And here I always thought is was the better dog that day in the judges opinion that won. Pointing style and intensity is the icing on the cake that makes it prettier than the other cakes. And of the two intensity is by far the most important IMO.

Ezzy

There you go Mr. Ezzy, thinking again, as much as i hate to agree with you ,its is the best dog that wins at the end of the day, although this is not always true in an akc stake, as they do sometimes withhold placements. But to answer the poor guys question reguarding style and intensity. Intensity means the lack of ticking or flagging on point , looking from side , crouching etc. I dont ever recall having a discussion with another judge about using a dog with flared nostrils over a dog with good style and intensity. If you want to win consistently in trials you gotta have both plus run. As Neill Mace said, "anybody can make a dog point if they dont have to worry about style"!! Thats the difference between winning and being an also ran.

[ezzy333]

"anybody can make a dog point if they dont have to worry about style"!!

The problem with that is I don't know of a single individual that wants a dog that they have to make point. I do agree though that the standing high on point does win very often but way too many times that is not a point that shows intensity. I still prefer the dog that slams into a point and stys in whatever position that he may be in and does it because of breeding and not because of training. May not win a trial but it sure does win my heart and that is why I have dogs. Style to me is the result of intensity and does not come in any particular pose.

Ezzy

[myerstenn]

Ezzy---tell me why you dont consider a dog that is high and tight on both ends as having a high level of intensity .he dosen t tick,he dosent flag?????What would be an indication to you he wasnt intense??????

[romeo212000]

I wouldnt say a dog that points like that necessarily doesn't have intensity. What I don't like to see is a dog make scent then slowly go into that pose raising the head and tail. It looks forced and looks like they are looking at the sky because they have to rather than pointing. I personally dont like the whole head crank thing. But to each his own. If they hit point like that and hold with nostrils flaring and muscles tight, that is an intense dog. Just not my thing.

[live4point]

ditto romeo.

[Ruffshooter]

So would it be fair to state: In an AF or AKC shooting dog or AA a Flat as a board Point will have a negitive impact on the out come of the trial when in an equal performance end of the day situation as a High head and tail.

[myerstenn]

your on course now

[slistoe]

romeo many years ago I was given a dog because I was the only person willing to take it - she had ZERO training of any positive nature. That dog taught me a lot about bird dogs. One thing that really won me over was one day I turned her loose in the yard and she ran 200 yards down the road skidding to a stop in a half crouch. As I walked towards her she slowly swelled up - getting higher and higher with each breath, and when she was fully inflated she started to lean into those birds. I had never seen it before in dozens of hunting dogs I had gunned over. It about took my breath away. I very rarely have a camera, but a puppy buyer took a few of her one time when they were here to look at the dogs and I am so glad to have this shot of her

[Margaret]

I find even a whiff of scent many dogs will straight away point, some need to pin point the scent and then point. Either way if the scent is not right up in the air why would a dog point that way? If the scent is low the dog will point low, if the bird is close the dog will often crouch. If the dog has a very good nose and catches scent from a distance, and this scent is usually up on the air currents, the dog will point well back with a high head. I'm afraid the idea of this excellent nosed dog pointing with high head appears to be an item trained for to fake the reality.
The dogs that have a natural point like this are beautiful to observe, the trained to stand this way are rather dull.

But beauty is in the eye of the beholder

[aylaschamp]

First, ever wonder why they loose what they had as puppies?



I find my GSP will point different depending on the conditions. The first one is a really windy day and even so I would knock her for style. The second is better but not picture perfect beut she always has the death eye intensity!

[live4point]

That last photo is a perfect example of a natural intense looking point in my opinion.Notice the legs still crouched,you can tell he stopped moving suddenly.Dogs don't run around stiff legged like they are on stilts, with thier heads pointed up in the air,when I see one pointed like that it doesn't look natural to me,it looks man made-but to each his own.

[slistoe]

First, ever wonder why they loose what they had as puppies?

Therein lies the "art" of training.

[live4point]

I think another way to describe the difference is this.In that last photo,you could cut everything out of the photo but the dog and post it on a white background,everyone would still be able to look at the dog and know that it is on point.You could do the same with a dog standing stiff legged with his nose in the air in that field trial pose,and who would know if it was on point or standing on a show bench? It looks to me that what people that want thier dog to point like this are actually wanting is that show dog pose.I'm not faulting anyone,if that's what a person want's and makes them happy then that is fine,it just does not look natural to me.

[ezzy333]

First, ever wonder why they loose what they had as puppies?

Therein lies the "art" of training.

I haven't seen one lose it. That is a natural pose when they point. But when they slaminto a point when running I like to see them hold whatever position they are in when they smell the bird. That to me says they are intent rather than posing in the natural position. None of this means the high point isn't pretty but I do think the unnatural poses many times show a great deal more intensity. Afterall, intensity is what caused the position.

JMO but everyone has one,

Ezzy

[slistoe]

First, ever wonder why they loose what they had as puppies?

Therein lies the "art" of training.

I haven't seen one lose it.

You have never seen a dog that has let down on birds because of training?

[gunner]

I always considered this image of my pointer "Big" a good example of a pointing dog's intensity on point.

[Rob]

I have always thought this picture of Linden's Tank is a great example of intensity on point. May not be what some judges are looking for, but it sure appeals to me.

[Ruffshooter]

These last two photos the V and the P show two dogs with great intensity and style each. The difference I see is the bird maybe is closer to the V and the P is further out. Both very nice. At this point I guess it is up to the judges bias.

[Grange]

For me style is in the eyes. Now I admit that I do like a 12o'clock tail, and standing tall, but without intensity in the eyes I don't get that feeling that I just saw something special. I don't really care much about head crank. I don't mind it, but it certainly isn't necessary.

[Flush]

.I'm not faulting anyone,if that's what a person want's and makes them happy then that is fine,it just does not look natural to me.

Well thats fine but I can assure you some dogs point naturally high and tight. Maybe your dogs don't, but some do. In some dogs it's probably a trained/learned behaviour, but in many it is not. Conditions play a large roll.

You get on the open northern prairies with a decent breeze and dogs scent birds from far off, and the ones I like will be pointing tall and proud, all natural too! I can gurantee you in those conditions, a dog with his nose and head high will scent more birds, farther off, than one with it's nose close to the ground.

While I can can certainly see the intensity in the V pictured above, the point shown has the appearance that the bird is very close (that may or may not be true). By contrast, the Pointer pictured above has the appearance it's standing it's birds from a greated distance. As a general rule I would rather see a dog pointing his birds from farther off, and thats the big difference in impression I take away from those two examples posted. just my $.02

-Flush

[Neil Mace]

As has already been said many times, there are so much more important things; like speed, range, desire, use of wind, seeking objectives, class, intelligence, certainty of bird's location, etc - those things that demonstrate that the dog would find wild birds were they available and present them to the gun, that no judge would ever have to pick between the V and P on style. If you are truly judging there is never a need for a tie breaker, one of the dogs applied themselves better - always.

In my mind, both are very nice.

What we have been seeing over the past few years is some judges are impressed by a dog that remains high and tight after the flush and shot, no marking the flight of the birds, no show of eagerness to find the next covey, nothing except perhaps they get higher. Have to admit the first few times I saw it, I went "Wow". But what does that have to do with finding birds or presenting them to the gun? After the shot is fired, as long as the dog does not break, his job of pointing is done.

This has been a very good discussion, thanks to all,

Neil

[Rob]

I was not trying to post this vs. that. I am sure the V in question is likely closer to the bird. I am also impressed by the other point. I was simply trying to point out that beauty has many forms (at least in my mind). I like 'em all.

Rob

[Rob]

I think geography plays a role here too, at least to some degree.

Rob

[High Roll-N-Angel]

Our female/....sometime's when she gets so intense on a bird...she actually will froth or look like she's drooling.

[Neil Mace]

Guys,

Go to amesplantation.org, then field trials, then National Championship Running, then click on photos at the left of the running order to see photos of dogs at the NC. (You can also keep up with the running there next month, the same day it happens).

You will see that our top dogs do not often point with such high style, except when posed. And usually only the first two or three photos are published, as in the 3rd hour most tails go down.

There are just more important things to judge.

Now don't misunderstand, these dogs don't just stop on point with their heads lollying about, they are pointing, just not like on the cover of "American Field".

Neil

[Ruffshooter]

Neil, Thanks for the link. I think most of us understand there is a whole lot more to the winner of the day than pointing style. Which is why I brought this to discussion, to Isolate one item in the judging to gain a better perspective of what a judge sees and why. I think other discussions could be brought forth to gain insite to each "item" judged individually, in the course of a brace and at the end of a day a full evaluation of a run..

It would be nice to see a video of a couple of qualifing braces and a championship brace and have some one evaluate the runs.

I bet that is asking a lot.

Thanks to all for the opinions.
Rick

[slistoe]

I bet that is asking a lot.

No, not a lot. That is asking for the impossible. It is not possible to capture the running on video. There are videos available of the National and the US Complete National, but they do not show the running where comparative evaluations could be made.

[High Roll-N-Angel]

JMO...I think there should be some better descriptive "written" standards for the pointing breed as for the desired pointing styles and some of the other qualities desired in our dogs, such as hunt and run. It would eliminate alot of....this style is better than this style. It would put a more overall desired pointing style and qualities into the hands of everyone, especially judges. So that when at a trial a naturally "flat" dog and a naturally "high" dog that run a similar race, have similar intensity, etc it would not be a matter of a judges opinion if that's what that one judge likes that day it would be a matter of does it fit the "standard". (And not just some standard that's been warped, changed or evolved over years to suit whomever)

So it is only a matter of judges opinion if "flat is better than "high"...why? Who's to say "high" is better than "flat" (especially if that is natural for the dog)? Would someone really want to spend all that time with a "flat" dog if they are not going to ever have a chance at a trial? We currently have one of both and I know who would win, but is that really fair when there is no "standard" and if they are equal in every other way. So you'd have to run around to find a judge that doesn't mind or likes "flat" just to have a chance?

If the field trials had more set and written "standards" for their dogs of all stakes it would be better for the betterment of the breeds. I think a great and needed tool for judges, owners, and pros would be to have a video of a "standard" run and point. It would not be impossible. The dog to set the standard would need to be decided by the Parent Club of that breed and AKC together to make sure the breed goes in the direction so desired. I personally think the judges should have a video test they have to take in order to be approved to judge and part of continuing education. Continuing education should also be required of all trial judges. Sorry to get off subject and onto judges, but the judges are a big part of why this discussion is even needed.

[ezzy333]

If the field trials had more set and written "standards" for their dogs of all stakes it would be better for the betterment of the breeds. I think a great and needed tool for judges, owners, and pros would be to have a video of a "standard" run and point. It would not be impossible. The dog to set the standard would need to be decided by the Parent Club of that breed and AKC together to make sure the breed goes in the direction so desired. I personally think the judges should have a video test they have to take in order to be approved to judge and part of continuing education. Continuing education should also be required of all trial judges. Sorry to get off subject and onto judges, but the judges are a big part of why this discussion is even needed.

Stop and think about this for a minute. I fully understand that everyone wants to know what and how to win at any game we play. But trying to set a standard for pointing would be the worse thing we could do. That would be like setting a standard for the position you should be in when a bird flushes so you could shoot. I do not want to see a dog hit a scent and slam into a point and then move so it can get into the right position. And I don't want to lose because a dog slams into an intense point but has its head turned or its front too low. If I see the dog move to improve his posture I immediately know the dog isn't as intense as I want it to be. Given the choice I want to see intensity and that many times shows in the posture the dog was in when it hit first scent.

When I was running JH test with one of my dogs he was running full bore chasing a flushed bird when he switched ends in mid air and came down in a rather awkward position and never moved solid on point. The judges and several other people saw it happen and there were many ooohs and aaaahhs from everyone.
That is a point that will always be in my mind long after some of the picture perfect points have disappeared. Wasn't the prettiest I guess but it took my breath away and it explains exactly why I have pointing dogs. I can't wait till the next one that does the same and I will almost guarantee it won't be the picture perfect point either.

Let have the judges use their judgement on what should be placed till they prove they are out of sinc with everyone else. Thats why we hire them and its why we call them judges.

JMO
Ezzy

[High Roll-N-Angel]

Ezzy, I understand what you are saying, and I certainly wouldn't want that either. Natural and true point is better over a fake or created point. But how then do you solve the issue where most people feel a "high" point is better than a "flat" point. When a flat dog may exhibit the same qualities and run the same race as a high dog, but doesn't get placed just because he is "flat" although still has extreme intensity?

[h.q.s]

[High Roll-N-Angel]

What makes this style of point so much "better" (or not) than the dog H.Q.S. posted below?