Questions Llewellen English Setters

[gfisher]

I've had 2 setters in the past 4 years. The first one was a started dog. This dog at 2 1/2 years old started acting a bit strangly after his last hunt with me and the next day attacked my daughter. I had put him down after that and it broke my heart.

This latest dog had been acting as though he was a bit sick a few day ago. 2 days ago he growled at my daughter when she was sitting next to him on the ottoman. I thought this odd as we've had him from 8 weeks old. The last evening I called him off my couch and when he didn't obey I went over and collered him off the couch for which he then attacked my hand. He went directly to his kennel for which I went in to pull him out and give him a licking for the attack and he then proceeded to bite at my hand.

After all was done, he went back into his kennel then I commanded him out which he did and became submissive as if in appology.

I've had dogs of other breeds all my life and never had they attacked. Can anyone provide some insight to this? I really don't want to get rid of this dog as he's only a year old and I've been training him since he was a pup. He is like a family member and we all love him however, I'm not sure if he can be trusted with other around.

[BirdDogDesire]

Lot of breeders breed for good temperments, maybe its just not a good line you picked from.

[gfisher]

Thanks for the response. Both my dogs were from different breeders.

[Don]

There is or used to be a thing called springer rage. It was usually found in show springer's. I never read what caused it and I've never seen it in one. But I have seen it in a Brittany years ago. I works juast as you described. When the attack is finised the dog goes back to normal. I don't know that that is whats going on here but I'd sure talk to my vet and let him know about it. It could be something physical I suppose. Other than that, I have no advice I think would cheer you up. I don't tolerate agressive dogs.

[rockllews]

The last evening I called him off my couch and when he didn't obey I went over and collered him off the couch for which he then attacked my hand. He went directly to his kennel for which I went in to pull him out and give him a licking for the attack and he then proceeded to bite at my hand.

Just how exactly are you training? What are your methods? And how do you handle your dogs? What are their rules? What is their routine? How are they being raised/socialized?

You say you got them from two breeders- how much research did you do when picking your dogs? Did you visit the parents? How were their temperaments? How much experience does the breeder have? Are we talking a professional or hobby breeder or just some litter you saw advertised locally? Have you talked to the breeders about this?

A lot of questions come to mind. Most behavior problems are caused or perpetuated by the humans and/or their environment. Aggression is rare in setters.

I'm in a hurry. Hopefully others will give some advice- I'll check back later. But it'd be good if you answered these questions to yourself and to the board in order for the right steps to be taken....

[gfisher]

rockllews : Thanks for your response. Yes, I did check the breeders. This second one was from Kentucky. I had done some substantial research prior to the purchase. The parents were champs. Not sure about the temperment, however the breeder and I keep in touch. I did tell the breeder of my problem with the 1st setter as the 1st one was put down in Dec. of 2007 and we picked up this new dog in January of '08. I've not brought this problem to his attention yet as I'm not sure how I will handle as this forum appears to provide alot of different views for consideration.

I agree that dogs are product of the environment. As for the training, it's very light as I hunt my dog for myself. No shows, competitions just personal enjoyment so it's never stressful. As for socialization, other than other hunters at the club I belong to, the dog doesn't get other interaction. As for the rules there are some as I'm pretty strict in the house but not like the military. Methods of teaching are minimal were derived from a book for bird dogs. I enjoy working with my dog and show him lots of love and affection. I have him with me as much as possible. We love to play with the dog and he gets an enormous amount of attention when were home. When were not home he's kenneled.

I think it's odd that this is twice now. I do remember prior to owning setters I had a great dane. Once when I was giving him a licking (he was 1yo) for pooping on the carpet, I had him cornered in the kitchen and he became quite agreesive. I really laid into him and never had a problem again. The situation is similar with the exception that I think my setter may be or have a cold as he has been quite lathargic the past few days. I'm hoping for the same outcome.

He appeared quite appologetic and more affectionate than usual this morning before I went to work. I also think he may have been testing me.

[highcotton]

While it is important to establish yourself as the pack leader with the dog, it is even more important to use methods designed to bring out the good in the dog and not the bad.

[gfisher]

Highcotton: Thanks for the advise. He is moreso a house pet than a hunter. My daughter, wife and I love to play and have fun with our dog. I hope my last reply didn't indicate anything to the negative.

He is with me when I work out in the morning. He sometimes goes to my office on the weekends with me. I've only had him out 3 or 4 times hunting so far and he's just a natural. I believe in taking time for him to learn. However, I'm thinking it's probably me that may be causing these events. I just don't know how it could be when he gets alot of affection and attention. That said when he purposely doesn't listen, with respect to every day type living issues, he'll get a crack. When we're hunting I'm not heavy handed at all as I believe he's learning and while hunting there is never a need for that severe of a reprimand.

[hunt365]

I had a friend that had a English setter for quite a few years one day after hunting he went to load the dog it attacked him he thought he was hurting or something when he checked him out he found nothing wrong and after the attack the dog seemed normal. The dog did this to him again after a hunt but worse the 2nd time needless to say he didn't make the trip home. he never new why the dog did this but wasn't going to take the chance of it happening to some one else or his grand kids. This dog never showed any aggressiveness in the past I always wondered if it could of been sugar levels or something like that.

[bobman]

I see a common thread in all your comments and you probably wont like this but for the dogs sake I'm going to say it.

In every case with everydog you mentioned "cracking" them or

He went directly to his kennel for which I went in to pull him out and give him a licking for the attack and he then proceeded to bite at my hand.

You sound way way to heavy handed to me. I never hit dogs I'm training ever( and I've trained a couple hundred of themin the last 40 years). And going to a dog thats went into a kennel and dragging him out to whip him is totally pointless, all disciplline must occur within about a 2 second window or all it means to the dog is you are attacking him for nothing.

Same with this incident you described

I do remember prior to owning setters I had a great dane. Once when I was giving him a licking (he was 1yo) for pooping on the carpet, I had him cornered in the kitchen and he became quite agreesive.

thats a stupid and pointless way to treat a dog.

My advice would be give the dog to someone that would treat it right and take up another hobby, because you dont have a clue about how dogs think.

Stooping to a Whipping and dog is shameful and ignorant and accomplishes nothing good, its an admission you don't know how to get the right response humanely and so the dog recieves the lesson eagerly.

Sorry to be blunt but thats what I think





Not a real PC answer but its what I think.

[gar-dog]

I see a common thread in all your comments...

In every case with everydog you mentioned "cracking" them

Precisely what I was thinking. I didn't feel there was enough enough information provided for me to come to a full conclusion, but I definitely have a hunch that this may have something to do with it, especially after reading the post about the carpet incident. But I'd probably crack on a dog that bit me or one of the kids.

[bobman]

If you were roughing up a dog especailly with bad timing like that and it bit you you would be deserving it. How many people on here have had repeated incidents of different dogs biting them?? I've never had a problem with it other than foolishly sticking my hand in a dog fight.

One dog maybe, three dogs?? IMO hes being too hard on them and using incorrect dicipline methods and bad timing.

I have no ill will toward this gentleman but someone has to come out and say it, I would give the same advice to my best friend or son. He needs to do some soul searching and study some dog training books or find another hobby.

[gfisher]

To all: Thank you for your responses. Although I'm not a seasoned trainer, after reading bobman's assesment, I too think or rethinking my reprimand style. This information is exactly what I was looking for. As it has only been a couple of days since the incedent, I am wary when my daughter is playing with the dog.

Although I don't think I've been abusive at all, as I have recalled previous teachings, the dog has responded better to a more positive type of working.

Any additional advise in going forward would be appreciated.

Please understand I take no offense in anything said. The constructive critisism is a positive way to acquire a good pet, friend and companion.

[gfisher]

This dog never showed any aggressiveness in the past I always wondered if it could of been sugar levels or something like that.

hunt365 has brings a curious issue as I had just moved my setter to Eucanuba "Sporting Dog" food aobut 1 1/2 weeks ago. He doesn't seem to like it much and hasn't been eating as much as with the standard brand. I typically provide my left over meats and gravy's from past meals with the standard Eucanuba cereal and that he loves. When I'm home alone with him I sometimes share my steaks with him as he is the only other male carnavoir in the house.

[rockllews]

Thank you Bob.

Gfisher,
First, I'm glad you're here asking for help and advise. You still didn't explain your methods or theory behind your training/care/handling, and I have no clue what book you are following. So we don't know the whole story, sure, and this is only internet advise. But I know most trainers don't use the approach you appear to use, and I know Good trainers don't at all. All we are reading from your posts is that you think heavy-handed approaches (tough guy licks and cracks) are what you think is the right way to go about it. And yet you recognize not to that when field training. (Do you ever find yourself going overboard in the field, though, too???) I will also point out that you are in denial that you are being abusive. You know all those programs for rehab/recov provide "acceptance" as the first step, I think that applies here, too. If you don't accept that you were being abusive, we can give you all the information in the world, and you still might resort to your old ways at a critical time if you don't 100% believe they were wrong.

Obviously you recognise something is wrong. However, I do not think it is the breed, nor is it line of the dog. I think in this case it is you, the handler. You need to relearn about dogs. You are trying to apply human ideas to him. Dogs do not react like people and you are doing him an injustice in continuing to think like that. A dog doesn't give a rip if you love him and give him lots of attention or affection most of the time. His main concern is his safety and security, something which your behavior is belying. You are being an unpredictable, aggressive handler- even if it's just 5% of the time, the dog will obviously not be willing to trust you the rest of the 95% of the time. You should Not be correcting him in anger with an aggressive mindset or unwarrented intensity. You should not be pulling him out of his safe place (crate) to give him a lickin'. Like Bobman said, correction should occur within 2-3 seconds, otherwise it IS abuse because the dog will make no connection and you are just beating on him. And correction shouldn't even resemble beating! You are being heavy handed and because it is unnecessary it IS abuse. If you're going to fix this, you need to recognize that. If you ever look at how dogs intermingle, if someone is doing something wrong, they'll get a warning glance, then a growl or snap; it is quick, not dragged out, and once it's over it's over. You should be correcting with an impersonal, non-aggressive, emotion-less attitude. Yes, use the tone of your voice to communicate the wrong-doing, but match even that to the situation- nothing more than necessary because even yelling can threaten a dog if you're overdoing it.

You're great dane attacked you because he was threatened. Imagine being backed into a corner and knowing you're going to get a beating from a crazy, angry, boss who doesn't know how to communicate, after you've done something he thought was wrong but you don't even know what it was. You can't flee! Wouldn't you fight? Your dog was rightly in the self-protection/self-preservation mode. I don't blame him. And you didn't recognize that was the problem so you beat him more. Any way you look at it, your correction was ill-timed and improperly performed.

Your current setter was either acting in the manner he did because he was being possessive of his couch and/or feeling threatened and protecting himself. The former possibly because he might be a more dominant dog or you've allowed him to think he's not the underdog. Note, dominant does Not mean aggressive. You just have to know that your dog wants to be above you in the pecking order. This could be because you are not being a good enough leader and he's just stepping up, ie you are unpredictable, unfair, unsafe, in your behavior. On the couch he could just have been showing resentment of your pulling him off something that he wanted. He may have acted a little too strongly (in your eyes) because you probably came over in a threatening manner- dogs have excellent recall, if he knows you're mad and know's you're heavy handed when mad, he'll move into the self-protection mode. When he ran into his kennel, he was trying to get away from you, somewhere safe. Again, your correction window passed. Dragging him out was wrong. Beating him makes it worse. He was Not apolegizing to you- he didn't know what you were beating him for.

Things you should be doing: work with him regularly, everyday, in a productive manner, walk through/out everything before him, walk him beside you/not in front, keep him off anything for people (beds, sofas, etc), only share Your toys when he earns them- don't leave them laying around the house, give him a safe place and keep in a safe place (crate), make him earn his dinner with a sit/laydown and then leave the bowl alone, don't let him eat before your family or in the same room, always approach and handle him when you're in a calm, sensible mood. No more heavy-hands! And make sure no one in your family is teasing, hastling, or physically mishandling him either. If you use pressure when training, learn to start light and slowly progress to firm; as soon as the desired behavior is attempted release. Make it a goal to give instant, impersonal, unemotional correction- nothing resembling beating, licking, cracking. Practice positive-reinforcement training, too (ask a command, if in teaching phase help to facilitate the command, always reward with voice, pat/treat initially/optional later). Also, you said you haven't socialized him except for your hunt club- do! Take him with your family or just you everywhere and let him get comfortable in a variety of situations. You should meet and greet everyone before he does and act confidently, all this will help to rebuild his trust in you. And again, quick giving him lickings! You are constantly destroying any trust you might be building.

I'm hoping you get the idea. You need to spend some time teaching yourself AND your family about dogs. Find an animal behavorist or working dog (preferably bird dog) trainer to help you. Start reading more books because the one your using is obviously not giving you enough theory or behavior concepts. Some I'd recommend is the one on Delmar Smith's method of training (by Bill Tarrant) and Paul Long's How to Train... book. I also recommend you buy or borrow the Smith Puppy Development I and II (huntsmith.com) videos. Below are some links that I highly suggest you read. While they may differ in some minor details, the information is solid and will all be valuable to you. But don't just read things- learn it and utilize the concepts. And again, make sure your family is on board.

http://www.huntsmith.com/articles/the-d ... smith.html
http://heartlandhumane.org/pub.03/?q=petcare_aggressive
http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/tips/
http://leerburg.com/pdf/theoryofcorrections.pdf
http://leerburg.com/pdf/packstructure.pdf
http://www.georgehickox.com/articles/Op ... nd(LR).pdf


All that said, I don't tolerate aggression in dogs well. But you have to understand why it is there and how to change it. Most aggression in dogs is due to the human/environment factors. And most can be solved by altering the human/environment factors. I think this is one of those cases- it can get better or worse depending on how you handle it. If you don't think you are going to be completely successful with refocusing your tactics, do the dog a favor and give him to someone with the ability to treat him right. In the meantime, if you are uncomfortable with your daughter playing with him, then Separate them! In fact, I was going to suggest that before you even mentioned that. If you don't know how to handle him, your children surely don't, and it is much safer for everyone for him to be in the yard or crate until you figure things out.


Good luck.

[WolfMansDad]

Llewellin setters are especially "soft" and are often much more sensitive than other breeds. They do not respond well to a heavy hand. When a setter misbehaves, 99% of the time it is because he does not understand what you want, not willful disobedience. "Cracking" him when he is trying to please you but confused as to what you want will only give him emotional issues. (They are also prone to neuroses.) It won't cure the problem.

That said, my older llewellin is often footsore and grumpy the day after a hard hunt. Letting kids poke or manhandle him when he's aching and tired is a recipe for disaster. He has a couple of "safe" places in the house where he is off limits - under the wingback chair, for example - and when he's there we keep the kids off him.

[rockllews]

Wolfmansdad, I don't want to argue and get off subject, but I do not think it's prudent to say that Llewellins are especially soft and prone to neuroses. Yes, setters are softer than say pointers but on a very broad level, in which there are plenty of exceptions.

Softness or hardness of temperament much more depends on the specific breeding, individual, and upbringing (training and socialization).

You do have a good point about the day after hunting and also easing up on the rough handling. There are plenty of dogs that will respond negatively to such ways.

[gfisher]

rockllews, bobman, Wolfmansdad, and all others that have replied : Thank you for taking the time and effort to educate me. The issue with my first setter and my daughter happened after a long day of hunting.

That said, and as rockllews stated, not to get off the subject, I never looked at it from your poignant statement and that point of view. I am a novice in this area, however giving up is not in the picture either. I'm not in this for breeding purposes, however for the pure enjoyment of the bird hunting and the exceptional beauty of my dog on point and all that goes with it.

After reading rockllews reply, I had my wife and daughter read it and we have decided to change all our ways and follow this good set of guidelines for handleing the dog. I would like to get another dog in the future however, with the poor (abusive) way I've been handling my dogs I think I need better training myself to secure a favorable outcome in my efforts.

The answers to my questions were far more detailed than anything I could get out of a book. It appears that all the experience you all have seem to have the same sound. I am following up on the suggested reading as rockllews identified.

All your help has been enlightening to say the least.

I also never thought about a dog being foot sore and grumpy after a long hunt. My dog (Cody) had hunted last weekend for approximately 5 hours, obviously with several breaks. He doesn't live on a farm however, I have only 1 acre of land that he can run on. I don't think he may be getting enough exercise as he seemed to be quite indifferent for about a day and a half after that longer hunt. Although I've always thought I can see the changes in his attitude looking at them now I can see things a little differently.

Again thanks to all and if interested I will keep an update on our progress.

[Elkhunter]

I dont think there is really anything wrong with being physical with a dog if he knows why its happening. And obviously using common sense, to where you are not injuring the dog. How do you think dogs in general for hundreds and hundreds of years established what is acceptable and what is not? They are aggressive with each other to let each dog knows where it stands. He mentions a few instances where he physically corrected a dog. Based on those few instances I dont see how you can come to the conclusion that he is a heavy handed trainer?? I live in a populated area and cannot have my dogs barking for obvious reasons, when they were young they learned VERY quickly that barking brought a quick and painful meeting with me. It did not cause any sort of problems with the relationship I have with my dogs, they know if they bark, they know what happens. My dogs dont cower at me at all, dont act aggressive towards me and are not afraid of me at all. They just know not to bark and do other annoying things. I look at it from a pack perspective, they assume we are the alpha dog. How does an alpha dog respond to a subordinate dog in the pack? JMO though. Watch how your alpha male/female treats the other dogs you own. IMO thats what they know and understand but you need to use common sense. If my dog bit me I can pretty much guarantee it would get a little "western" Of course I dont use this type of training when I am training on birds etc. I am just referring to behavior problems in dogs in general.

[rockllews]

Correcting a dog involves physical handling, yes. But like you said, the dog has to know the error- if the correction doesn't come instantly, which in these cases it does not appear to be, then it is pointless. I said I didn't know the whole story, but we're all just giving this guy advice for the sake of the dog and family. Licking and cracking, terms we heard in his descriptions imply heavy handedness. I do not think beating a dog has it's place in everyday handling or training.

That said, I'm glad he is trying to learn about and fix this situation. They say if you learn just one thing from a course or question, then it was worth your time. Maybe I'm totally wrong and his dog won't be any better with the suggested changes, but I'm sure the knowledge he'll gain from asking his question here will serve him well anyhow.

[Elkhunter]

I dont think beating a dog has its place at all, but physical correction does if you apply it correctly like you mentioned. When I would try to catch my dogs barking sometimes I would have to hide by the door waiting for them to bark then run out there so they knew EXACTLY why I was there. And it worked very quickly, my new neighbor says he would not know I had dogs unless he looked in my backyard. It could also just be the dog to. I agree with you that the reccomendations you gave him would help with his situation. If someone has a dominant dog and there is confusion as to who is leading who you will see that type of behavior. The dog is testing to see his limits etc. I have never had a human aggressive dog at all, my GSP hates my EP but I keep a good handle on that. I almost even got a setter a few weeks ago!! But I ended up with something with short hair and a long tail!!

[rockllews]

Elkhunter, I think we're pretty much on the same page. And I don't mean to sound argumentative, persistant, or all-knowing. (I'm certainly not the latter.) I feel that these are some basic concepts that most pet owners in our country have forgotten- for many it's just about about love and affection, without sufficient knowledge on correction and training.... Good luck with your new hunting buddy! Chelsea

[highcotton]

Elkhunter, I think we're pretty much on the same page. And I don't mean to sound argumentative, persistant, or all-knowing. (I'm certainly not the latter.) I feel that these are some basic concepts that most pet owners in our country have forgotten- for many it's just about about love and affection, without sufficient knowledge on correction and training.... Good luck with your new hunting buddy! Chelsea

Chelsea, You did a good job on this thread. You gave good information and made your points in a respectful manner. I sometimes want to jump in these threads but rarely post more than a line or two. My writing skills are so bad I usually feel like I end up confusing people. I guess that's why my advisor recomended engineering school.....I think that was about the time I was taking freshman comp for the thrid time.

BTW who's the new belton puppy in your avatar?

Charles

[rockllews]

Thanks Charles. Yours were some good words of wisdom, too. Looking back I feel like I was on a soap box, but oh well. -All with good intention. My difficulty with writing is that I tend to write novels.... And eventually I ramble. :roll:

--That ain't no pup! That's my Sophie girl, six yrs old now. She's just trying to look cute there. I am looking forward, though, to a pup we're expecting this spring from Carla and Greg. Brodhi's grandsire top and bottom was Royal, and this pup will be by Royal (also a greatgrandson of Royal through the bottom), so I'm sure we'll be getting a pretty similar dog- happily. --

[LittleNell]

I've had mainly English Setters but have been looking for a few years to get a Llewellin Setter. I want one however that doesn't have any of the King Kennel bloodlines in its ancestry. Now, that isn't meant to be a put-down or anything to the Llewellins that have that breeding in their ancestry. This is a personal preference, and trust me, a number of Llewellin breeders have tried to sway my preference with pups that have the King Kennel bloodlines five and six generations back. I've heard all the best arguments however I just don't want that in a Llewellin pup. I like the looks of the old-style Llewellins with the straight across horizontal tails when they go on point, I don't want one with a high "flag" tail. I understand that is desirable with a lot of hunters today, but that's just a personal preference, too. Does anyone know of any Llewellin breeders that managed to bring the line along without any King Kennel dogs bloodlines? Maybe that's like looking for a needle in a haystack but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask. If you could help me out here, it sure would be appreciated.

Nell

[highcotton]

I've had mainly English Setters but have been looking for a few years to get a Llewellin Setter. I want one however that doesn't have any of the King Kennel bloodlines in its ancestry. Now, that isn't meant to be a put-down or anything to the Llewellins that have that breeding in their ancestry. This is a personal preference, and trust me, a number of Llewellin breeders have tried to sway my preference with pups that have the King Kennel bloodlines five and six generations back. I've heard all the best arguments however I just don't want that in a Llewellin pup. I like the looks of the old-style Llewellins with the straight across horizontal tails when they go on point, I don't want one with a high "flag" tail. I understand that is desirable with a lot of hunters today, but that's just a personal preference, too. Does anyone know of any Llewellin breeders that managed to bring the line along without any King Kennel dogs bloodlines? Maybe that's like looking for a needle in a haystack but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask. If you could help me out here, it sure would be appreciated.

Nell

I PM'ed you a couple of breeders that have pure Bondhu bred Llewellins. They also have some American dogs so be sure to look at pedigrees.