elhew sires

up-hunter · Post by **up-hunter** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:10 pm

I have heard differnt dog people say that snakefoot wasn't really all he was cracked up to be.

I was wondering what elhew sires you guys consider to be the best, it seems alot of elhew breeders i talk to like strike alot.

what about you guys and girls

TimSchoenborn · Post by **TimSchoenborn** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:38 pm

up-hunter wrote:I have heard differnt dog people say that snakefoot wasn't really all he was cracked up to be.

Right :roll:

And he has not sired many champions either.

He only placed eight times in just twenty starts.

1994 National Open Shooting Dog Champion and 1995 Masters Open Shooting Dog Championship Top Shooting Dog Award for 1994-1995

And retired before 5 years old..............

Tim

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:49 pm

Talk about beating a dead horse, but oh well. I don't know who've you "heard different dog people say" from but i'd beg to differ. Like Tim said, 8 places out of 20 starts, Dog of the Year, National Champion, done by age 5. Well up-hunter, I would say that jealousy and envy are the root of all evils. If you would ask those same people if they could have a dog do all that before age 5, would they own him. I'm just taking a stab at it, but i'll bet they'd say they wouldn't mind. When anyone/anything is successful people will say what they want to downplay the others successes.

I guess to answer your question, i'd say most of my stuff goes back to Snake. But I guess I'll answer your question with a question. What are you wanting to produce? Horseback trial dogs, walking trial dogs, hunting dogs?.? I have a buddy that might have the last daughter of Snakefoot alive and she is a beautiful dog that is a very nice bird dog. I have two out of Fibber that are very nice dogs. Distinction throws great looking dogs that are great hunters(although there is a dog out of him kicking some major arse in horseback trials). Comanche from the sounds, is throwing nice running dogs. Your question is a little grey.

Big Dave · Post by **Big Dave** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:01 am

up hunter,
Are you wanting information on the Elhew sires of the past or of today? I would rather hear about todays top producing sires or what's the next great producer.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:36 am

I understood uphunter's question to mean Snakefoot as a sire, not as a competitor. I don't know of many that would question his win record, but I know a lot that question his prepotency. Snakefoot produced less in actual numbers and percetage than Strike or Damascus and he was bred a lot.

Great dog though and I would have LOVED to own him.

Bill Holtan · Post by **Bill Holtan** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:14 am

Snakefoot was a Great dog AND a Great Sire, in my opinion. I Had a really nice son of Snakefoot that was probably the best dog I ever laid my hands on. Saw many champions out of him both in the woods and on the horseback shooting dog circuit. But he is gone, I have seen some really good young dogs out of Elhew Sinbad, Fibber M<cGee pups have done well, and I think he would produce good grouse trial dogs.

Bill

cgbirddogs · Post by **cgbirddogs** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:26 am

As with most sires, it all depends on what female he was bred to. You breed to junk, you'll get junk in my opinion. Fibber's mom is the blue hen Deep Creek Kate, who was by Dunn's Fearless Bud and another Snakefoot daughter, Elhew Molly. Multiple champion Elhew Sunflower was by Snakefoot and Hanna's Elhew Lou, another blue hen. Hanna was bred to Hobo and Jefferson, which both litters produced champions Hannabell and Swami, respectively. Snakefoot son RU Champion Elhew Discovery was by another blue hen, Elhew Calamity Ann (who was by Dunn's Fearless Bud, btw). Calamity Ann crossed to Elhew McGoo produced the exceptional grouse champion Elhew Autumn Whisper. She also produced Champion Elhew Big Blaze. These are just a few of the champions that Snakefoot produced. The common denominator, however, was the great females he was bred to. You can see that phenomenon in his son Fibber McGee as well. Fibber only won one championship (Alabama Shooting Dog), but he produces very well when crossed to the right female. You cannot deny that bloodline, as the strength of its production will come through eventually, when crossed to great females.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:43 am

I don't know how many of you guys follow horse racing at all(I do about as much as dogs) but I compare Snake in some ways to Secretariat.

In Secretariat you had a horse that was beautiful to look at(confirmation). He also was amazing at the track as everyone knows(Snake went 8 for 20). There was a lot of hype around both of them. They were both retired early to sire what everyone hoped would be clones of themselves at a very high price. They were both bred a lot and as far a percentages go neither were the best. They both sired some offspring that did well. Secretariat sired Lady's Secret and Risin Star. However where I think both of these animals come into play is how well their offspring produce. As CG stated before all the dogs that went on to be great dogs with Snake as their Grandsire. Secretariat was known for throwing great broodmares producing. AP Indy, Storm Cat, and many others. Alot of the greats now have Secretariat's blood in their veins and I think the same is with Snake. I have a Snakefoot pouring out of my kennel. It may not be direct but it pretty darn close and I like what I have.

up-hunter · Post by **up-hunter** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:51 am

As far a snakefoot goes i never ever would question his ability and no doubt he was a great dog, the question i always heard about was him as a sire not as a competitor. I think anyone would want to have a dog of that caliber.

BrettBryan · Post by **BrettBryan** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:27 pm

By looking at some pedigrees, I can tell there were believers in Snakefoot. I had a question though. Did Snakefoot quit at a OK Shooting Dog CH or was that a case of someone just jealous that spread a rumor? For some reason, I had heard this and was wondering if there was any truth to it or not. This is not an insult to elhew believers, please don't take it that way. I just wanted to know what went down. This could be one of those instance where someone was spreading a false rumor because of jealousy.

Bill Holtan · Post by **Bill Holtan** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:10 pm

As far a snakefoot goes i never ever would question his ability and no doubt he was a great dog, the question i always heard about was him as a sire not as a competitor. I think anyone would want to have a dog of that caliber.

How many champions does one need to produce to qualify as a good sire? He produced dogs that won championships in the woods, as well as horseback shooting dogs that won both on wild birds and liberated birds.

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:58 pm

Silver Strike, what do ya guys think of him?

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:24 pm

R-Heaton

He is a nice dog but I wouldn't consider him an "Elhew" sire. He is double bred Red Water Rex. Your dog Ch. Idaho's Lucky Strike would be considered more of an Elhew dog because of the bottom side being mostly Elhew. Both nice animals from what i've heard.

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:39 pm

Silver Strike is out of Elhew Copperstrike,,, so he carries the prefix but I agree people consider him a double bred Red Water Rex dog,, maybe because its just a bigger name.

My Idaho's Lucky Lady dog is Elhew clean through,,,her family tree looks more like a totem pole. In 3 generations Elhew Strike is in there 3 times. I guess I didn't realize they bred 1/2 siblings to get Damascus. Livelys Elhew Jesse was a well bred dog and from what I have been told an excellent bird dog. She too was out of Elhew Strike.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:13 pm

My Idaho's Lucky Lady dog is Elhew clean through,,,

..with a little splash of Guard Rail.

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:11 pm

BrettBryan wrote:. I had a question though. Did Snakefoot quit at a OK Shooting Dog CH or was that a case of someone just jealous that spread a rumor? .

Yes he did and those are NOT that tough of grounds up there, the grounds at Arnett where they run the Colorado Sd Ch are far tougher on a dog in many ways. Not a jealous rumor in the least, that was not the only stake he quit in either. Snake was not a tough animal by all first hand accounts I have heard from people who saw him on different venues.

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:46 pm

I have a friend who's a professional trainer and trialer who trained a campaigned a Snake dog for a client for five years.Won a good many trials and placements with him.But he said when it came to the longer Championship trials the dog just couldn't reach down and bring what it took to win.Have also talked to a few trainers whos trained Snake dogs and McGoo dogs and they've all told me that the McGoo dogs had alot more going in the brains dept.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:53 pm

...all told me that the McGoo dogs had alot more going in the brains dept.

I wonder why that is???

This is too easy!

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:16 pm

You're enjoying this way too much Ross.

cgbirddogs · Post by **cgbirddogs** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:24 pm

All of these "pros" who claim Snakefoot didn't produce dogs with bottom can't provide you with a reason why the two winninigest shooting dogs in history are a daughter and granddaughter of Snakefoot respectively (Sunflower and Swami). Hannabell, another granddaughter of Snakefoot, is knocking on the door. And btw Ross, Guardrail was more Elhew than anything

I know that'll get you going.

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:25 pm

Is it true Guard Rail dogs topple over at age 6.5 of cancer?

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:32 pm

Is it true Guard Rail dogs topple over at age 6.5 of cancer?

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:25 am

"I wonder why that is???"
Is it because McGoo's father Strike was a producer and his mother Kiwi was a stray from a good neighborhood?

BrettBryan · Post by **BrettBryan** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:42 am

Duane M,

Thanks for the answer. I had heard comments like that from some old time field trialers. They didn't ever care for elhew bred bird dogs. I kind of think it's hard to lump them all in one category though. I think it just depends on the breeding.

R-Heaton,
I never got to see Silver Strike. But, he looks like he was bred right. Looks like Hoyle Eaton may have bred the dog.

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:15 pm

Actually, Copperstrike and Silver Strike are West Coast dogs, born and bred.

BrettBryan · Post by **BrettBryan** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:49 pm

R-Heaton,

I guess I was just looking at Red Water Topaz who was out of Red Water Rex and a White Knight female. Then, Copper Strike's sire was Red Water Rex. It just make me think of Hoyle when I saw it.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:05 pm

I heard that the Red Water Rex blood is very suspicious. Folks aren't flocking to the line because they don't believe they will actually get RWR blood. Anyone else hear this??

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:22 pm

Yea I have heard that,,, also heard at the frozen semen bank the RWR stuff got mixed up with the Guard Rail stuff so what your really getting is RWR instead of Guard Rail.,,,,, "bleep".

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:08 pm

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Singleshot · Post by **Singleshot** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:13 pm

cgbirddogs wrote:As with most sires, it all depends on what female he was bred to. You breed to junk, you'll get junk in my opinion.

While females are important, the "home and owner" is most important to be considered a TOP producer. One stud may have more pups in trial homes while another has more pups in true hunting homes. So which is going to be considered by most as the TOP producer??!

The stud with more in trial homes may produce one winner in 10 litters. The stud with pups in hunting homes may produce more consistent pups in every litter and have all capabilities of winning in trials. However, the owners are not trialers, but avid hunters.

So, which is the true TOP stud??

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:57 pm

Singleshot,
Good point and a Valid consideration to be taken into account.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:31 am

The stud with more in trial homes may produce one winner in 10 litters. The stud with pups in hunting homes may produce more consistent pups in every litter and have all capabilities of winning in trials. However, the owners are not trialers, but avid hunters.

That's interesting in theory, but without a mechanism to measure and ultimately quantify the results of a breeding then what you're talking about is nothing more than an opinion. Trialing "proves" the quality of what was produced.

I hear all the time that "I have a great hunting dog" when in reality many of those folks have never even seen a great hunting dog.

jakemaster · Post by **jakemaster** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:16 am

But always remember MY dog is great in My eyes!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:05 am

But always remember MY dog is great in My eyes!

That is my point exactly.

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:31 am

Ross to play the devils advocate there are great trial dogs who aint never seen a wild bird, some maybe have never even had a bird shot over them. Should those dogs be considered better than the hunting dog who could very possibly whoop the trial dog in every aspect outside finish? I know I have sold some great prospects to folks who hunt 100 days a year but aint never set foot on a trial grounds and brag the dog up all the time.

Ideally we would have a split in ownership of every litter but the world aint ideal and personally I place the dog who hunts and handles wild birds above the dog who only has proven it can be broke to W&S and has some handle to it. I know my two best hunting dogs could and have beaten not just my own but other peoples great trial dogs in the real world but due to tail issues would never be used in a stake. Tough to place sickle tails ya know.

Greatness depends on what you value most.

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:13 am

Duane M wrote:Ross to play the devils advocate there are great trial dogs who aint never seen a wild bird, some maybe have never even had a bird shot over them. Should those dogs be considered better than the hunting dog who could very possibly whoop the trial dog in every aspect outside finish? I know I have sold some great prospects to folks who hunt 100 days a year but aint never set foot on a trial dog and brag the dog up all the time.

Ideally we would have a split in ownership of every litter but the world aint ideal and personally I place the dog who hunts and handles wild birds above the dog who only has proven it can be broke to W&S and has some handle to it. I know my two best hunting dogs could and have beaten not just my own but other peoples great trial dogs in the real world but due to tail issues would never be used in a stake. Tough to place sickle tails ya know. Greatness depends on what you value most.

Very well said!!

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:56 am

Duane,

Great point, I have a buddy who owns two setters that are the most amazing chukar dogs I have seen. They work birds, find birds and hold birds. And they do it consistently. They have never been formally trained, all he does is hunt them, they are steady to wing but after that it gets a little crazy but they put birds in the bag. He has absolutely no desire to trial them. I would own either one of those dogs at any time. They would never be touted as great trial dogs, but they do what they were bred to do amazingly well. I have seen them compared to my dogs, and many other peoples dogs. Trials are important and I enjoy competing in them, but there is a huge difference in handling a covey of scared sharptails than pointing a dizzy quail rammed in a bush. I am sure there are alot of dogs out there that would have done amazing in trials but ended up in hunting homes. And vice versa of course!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:23 am

I hear all the time that "I have a great hunting dog" when in reality many of those folks have never even seen a great hunting dog.

Duane,

I was probably referring to myself in that post as much as anyone else. I had a NSTRA Champion, NAVHDA UT, etc. that I felt was a pretty bada$$ bird dog. Then I ran him in some NBHA trials (back in the early 90s when the dogs had to retrieve) and my bada$$ bird dog was COMPLETELY outclassed by a breed that was not even supposed to be able to retrieve!!

.... It opened my eyes. I had no idea prior to seeing those dogs hunt and find birds what really great bird dogs could do.

So, I think it's relative to the owners personal experience. And because of that I believe that trials are needed to "prove" the dogs against other dogs in competition. As far as only being able to point a planted bird, well I think that argument is silly. I certainly want MY hunting dogs to come from the best trial blood because I know what those dogs had to do. They had to prove it.

Granted, I know that there are great dogs that will never see a bracemate in a trial, but just because someone says that their dog is great doesn't make it so. I want proof.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:23 am

Trialing "proves" the quality of what was produced.

Trialing does prove if the dog is a great trial dog but does not prove a thing in the field. The only atribute a trial dog has over a close working dog is the desire to run. And that is important when you are trialing. And if it is coupled withthe desire to find birds then it is important in the prairies with unlimited area to hunt.

I think it is exactly why it is important to pick a pup from dogs that perform in the manner you want for your dog. But none of us can say we have the best dogs, only that we have dogs that perform like we want.

Ezzy

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:39 am

The only atribute a trial dog has over a close working dog is the desire to run.

I'll pretend that you didn't actually write that.

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:56 am

OK Ross I can see ya point, but as we all know who have ran trials, winners are in the judges eyes only when the chips are played. Unlike a human judge, birds don't play favorites, don't have handlers/owners in thier pocket, when the day starts the landowners dogs don't get the best draw and such. Ya know EXACTLY what I am talking about. Birds and wild terrain are the fairest judge there is and even in trials, especially when it comes to HB stakes, show whats what. Unfortunately walking trials have little to offer in comparison.

If ya get FT mag John Yates used a pup I raised in his article on hunting trial dogs as an example of a dog who could be a CH but her owner much prefers her to be his go to wild bird dog. Like I said greatness depends on what ya value most.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:36 pm

Birds and wild terrain are the fairest judge there is and even in trials, especially when it comes to HB stakes, show whats what.

Right on Duane! I'm with ya'!! Unfortunately even in wild bird trials, subjective judging is involved, so the best bird dog still isn't always agreed upon. It's the nature of the field trial beast but still a ton better than running in circles on planted birds IMO.

Like I said greatness depends on what ya value most.

I think having the go-to wild bird dog also be a multi time champion is not a bad way to go personally!

Granted, I know that there are great dogs that will never see a bracemate in a trial, but just because someone says that their dog is great doesn't make it so. I want proof.

Right on!! We're waiting...

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:09 pm

[quote="DGFavor

Like I said greatness depends on what ya value most.

I think having the go-to wild bird dog also be a multi time champion is not a bad way to go personally!

[/quote]

Yeah yeah brag it up.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:22 pm

I think having the go-to wild bird dog also be a multi time champion is not a bad way to go personally!

Actually, I heard he was a bit of a bootlicker (not that there's anything wrong with that...)

....but that may just be the difference in breeds....

(Just kidding Doug!!)

Unfortunately walking trials have little to offer in comparison.

I agree, the NBHA is pooped ...and US Complete has nothing that I am interested in.

So, if I am looking for an Elhew sire then it has to be one that is producing Champions. Just because someone 'tells me" that their dog is great means very little. I want proof. Fibber is doing it. The pups that I have seen out of Sinbad have looked good. Has Distinction produced any winners?? Since he's out of Kiwi I would have interest in him....

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:40 pm

Elhew Distinction is sire to Gypsy's Elhew Hannah who is in the top 5 in shooting dog points as of right now. She won the All-American Championship which is on wild birds. And I believe she won the Tenn. Championship this year also.

Bill Holtan · Post by **Bill Holtan** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:54 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:Elhew Distinction is sire to Gypsy's Elhew Hannah who is in the top 5 in shooting dog points as of right now. She won the All-American Championship which is on wild birds. And I believe she won the Tenn. Championship this year also.

Yea she is a nice one. Here she is at the Dakota-Sask. Open SD CH. a week after she won the all american. This was a nice job on some pheasants.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:58 pm

I wonder if there is a way to find out how many Champions or Champion producers have been produced from Guard Rail daughters. I bet the number is staggering....

Any Distinction straws around? I'd love to take him to one of my Guard Rail daughters....

gcrumlich · Post by **gcrumlich** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:04 pm

Hampshire kennels has straws http://www.hampshire-kennels.com/

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:13 pm

Yes, Hampshire kennels has some, but I "distinctly"

remember you saying that "I breed to AA dogs" and "no one is interested in Elhew out here"

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:19 pm

Yes, Hampshire kennels has some, but I "distinctly" remember you saying that "I breed to AA dogs" and "no one is interested in Elhew out here"

Not true! I "distinctly" said to "All Age or All Age producing...."....!! Nice try!!

"no one is interested in Elhew out here"

I don't recall saying that either, but if I did, it was tongue-in-cheek considering that my best and favorite dog in my kennel is Sarah, an Elhew bred princess!! (She just doesn't know she's Elhew. I told her she was Miller!!...shhhhh).

BTW, the Rail Dancer surgery was TODAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!