elhew sires

[mattj]

Bill,

Could you give us your impression of Scott Shrum's Commander dog that took runner-up at the Dak.-Sask.

Matt

[Bill Holtan]

I really liked the Commander dog, he was a big strong running dog that carried himself well. I like the Four Rivers Covergirl even more, she was named runner up at the Montana SD CH and the All American SD CH. Her is a pic of him on his first of two finds in the Dakota-Sask. Championship.

Bill



Here is a picture of Shawn K handling him, if you like real close I think you can see Commander going up the edge on the right. Oh how I long for those days of late summer.

[ElhewPointer]

I breed to AA dogs. That is because I want to produce Shooting Dogs and I believe that I will get more Shooting Dogs breeding my Shooting Dogs to AA dogs than if I were to breed my Shooting Dogs to Shooting Dogs.

Please read what I wrote. I said "out this way". And honestly, around here trialers are not looking for Elhew. The horseback guys sure aren't and the NBHA/US Complete trialers aren't. Dennis Beauford is the only trialer I know "FROM AROUND HERE" that breeds Elhew and he does it for the money IMO.

Sorry buddy, gotcha on this one.

Mattj,

I didn't get to see him run when he got his RU-CH and Bill can fill you in on that but I've seen Ace(Four Rivers Commander) run quite a few times. I like him. He is a big powerful dog. Ace has deceptive speed in the fact that he is a nice big dog and doesn't look like he is covering a bunch of ground but he is more than not ahead of his bracemate. He is nice around his birds and good looking on the stake out also. Over-all he is a nice dog and Scott and I have talked a little about breeding one of my females to him. JMO Sorry for chiming in.

[mattj]

Bill & Elhewpointer,

Appreciate your observations.

Matt

[BrettBryan]

[quote][The only atribute a trial dog has over a close working dog is the desire to run. And that is important when you are trialing. And if it is coupled withthe desire to find birds then it is important in the prairies with unlimited area to hunt.
/quote]

Ezzy, I disagree with that one. I think there's more to a trial dog than that. I think one big difference in a trial dog and a short ranging dog is adaptability. They have horsepower available if needed. The good ones will adjust when you need them to. You grab a shotgun and take off hunting, he will hunt with you and for you. You get on a horse, he opens up. They have that option to do what's needed of them. A short ranging dog, in all likely hood won't open up beyond it's normal range. To me, this is a big difference. You have one that has eight cylinders under the hood and can step on the accelerator when needed. The other has 4 cylinders and has it to the floor all the time.
I'll use last year's Nat'l Champ, Whipporwill's Wild Agin for example. He was used at a Bass Pro Shops Kids field trial last year. They put him in a small field to point birds for the kids. This same dog had one of the strongest finishes in the last 20 years in the Nat'l CH last year and won the trial. He got stronger and stronger the duration of the three hours. They basically had to ride him down at the finish to corral him up.
To me, there is no comparison in the two animals. The good ones can adjust and are smart enough to adjust. That's the kind of dog I want in my kennel. I also like one with some bottom and toughness about them. I have no need for a soft bird dog. They will quit you if it's gets too tough on them. I don't want a dog with quit in him/her. A good bird dog needs to be tough imo.

[cgbirddogs]

I've heard a lot good things about Ch. Elhew Gunner as a sire, and recently have been seeing pups out of Elhew Commanche (by Elhew Blacksmith) placing in all age competition. I've never had or seen a Gunner pup run, but I'm itching to get one. Living out West, its hard to get access to some of these studs east of the Miss unless you can go chilled/frozen semen.

[mattj]

Elhewpointer,

I suspect that you have seen Westfall's Black Ice as well, any comments on him? Anyone else that has seen him feel free to jump in.

Matt

[Wa Chukar Hunter]

I watched both of them at the MT Shooting Dog - I liked 4 Rivers Cover Girl better - but Commander did a nice job too.

[dudleysmith]

Here is a dose of reality for some the only reason that people think that certain trial dogs are all that and a bag of chicken for breeding is that the dog's owners have MONEY.

Lets face it, a poor to average income guy can own the best dog in the country as far as producing or preforming but no one gets to see the dog because the man is limited by MONEY.

The dogs on the major circuit that people scream and holler about all the time as the best stud in the country are all backed by MONEY it doesn't mean they are the best. It means that there owners have deep pockets.

i Do Not care what the papers say, a great dog can come from anywhere at any time. Ol' Joe that Bill Jones hunts 75 days a year on wild birds thruout the country can produce as nice or nicer dogs than most on the big scene but no one will breed to him and Bill does not care about raising pups so no one really gets to appreciate Ol' Joe. But his brother is backed by money on the circuit and can't produce a decent dog but the puppy sellers and paper chasers line up hand over fist to breed to this dog when the real jewel lies with his brother that is just a good ol hunting dog.

[ezzy333]

Here is a dose of reality for some the only reason that people think that certain trial dogs are all that and a bag of chicken for breeding is that the dog's owners have MONEY.

Lets face it, a poor to average income guy can own the best dog in the country as far as producing or preforming but no one gets to see the dog because the man is limited by MONEY.

The dogs on the major circuit that people scream and holler about all the time as the best stud in the country are all backed by MONEY it doesn't mean they are the best. It means that there owners have deep pockets.

i Do Not care what the papers say, a great dog can come from anywhere at any time. Ol' Joe that Bill Jones hunts 75 days a year on wild birds thruout the country can produce as nice or nicer dogs than most on the big scene but no one will breed to him and Bill does not care about raising pups so no one really gets to appreciate Ol' Joe. But his brother is backed by money on the circuit and can't produce a decent dog but the puppy sellers and paper chasers line up hand over fist to breed to this dog when the real jewel lies with his brother that is just a good ol hunting dog.

Dudley,

You probably have a point but it seems strange that you start with a "dose of reality" and end with a hypothetical situation to prove it. Would be better recieved I am sure if you stated in my opinion. With that I might agree with you but it would always be an opinion since as you say no one ever bred to Ol' Joe.

Ezzy

[dudleysmith]

Sorry Ezzy
i was just showing a sitution with nothing in mind...

Placement of pups is the biggest factor in a good stud dog.

[Yawallac]

This was the quote I was referring to:

You're right about one thing, it is only my opinion. ... Further, I don't even breed my own Shooting Dogs to anything but All Age or All Age producing sires.

But you're right I only breed to All Age sires and I hate Elhew............ You got me.

I guess I better hide Sarah, Mary, Belle, Lady and Sue.

BTW. Distinction semen goes on sale next month according to the website!! Sent email!!

[R-Heaton]

Gypsy's Elhew Hannah was a West Coast dog also,,,,, raised up on Rich Robertsons string running wild birds as a derby. Nice dog

[R-Heaton]

[quote="Yawallac"]I wonder if there is a way to find out how many Champions or Champion producers have been produced from Guard Rail daughters.

I would bet nobody else was wondering that?

Ross in all seriousness you breed to some of the nicest stud dogs in the country,,, but how do you test your females?

[Yawallac]

Well, Sarah was on the circuit. How's that?

I admit that we start with pedigrees ...and then sort them out. ALL of our females are trained, roaded, conditioned and used for hunting on the Plantation. Bottom line is that they have to be bird dogs.........

[ElhewPointer]

Here is a dose of reality for some the only reason that people think that certain trial dogs are all that and a bag of chicken for breeding is that the dog's owners have MONEY.

Lets face it, a poor to average income guy can own the best dog in the country as far as producing or preforming but no one gets to see the dog because the man is limited by MONEY.

The dogs on the major circuit that people scream and holler about all the time as the best stud in the country are all backed by MONEY it doesn't mean they are the best. It means that there owners have deep pockets.

i Do Not care what the papers say, a great dog can come from anywhere at any time. Ol' Joe that Bill Jones hunts 75 days a year on wild birds thruout the country can produce as nice or nicer dogs than most on the big scene but no one will breed to him and Bill does not care about raising pups so no one really gets to appreciate Ol' Joe. But his brother is backed by money on the circuit and can't produce a decent dog but the puppy sellers and paper chasers line up hand over fist to breed to this dog when the real jewel lies with his brother that is just a good ol hunting dog.

Here is a dose for you. You could not be MORE wrong. Money isn't it, it is the love of the sport that I have a dog with a pro. I would like to know what you consider "poor to average" income is. You statements couldn't be farther off base. I'm sorry sir, but you are wrong.

[R-Heaton]

[quote="ElhewPointer"]You statements couldn't be farther off base. I'm sorry sir, but you are wrong.

Elhew Pointer,,,, surely you see the man's point? It wasn't directed towards you and your income it was just stating an opinion that alot of dogs go unnoticed because they are just hunting dogs and not trialed,,,, whether it be money or because the owner has zero interest in trialing. I personally see the man's point,,, I know of dogs that are not the best bird dogs not the most trainable but because of the owners willingness to keep paying the bill of a pro trainer the dog would end its career with some wins,,,,, you enter enough trials pretty soon your going to end up the last one standing.

[ezzy333]

Here is a dose of reality for some the only reason that people think that certain trial dogs are all that and a bag of chicken for breeding is that the dog's owners have MONEY.

Lets face it, a poor to average income guy can own the best dog in the country as far as producing or preforming but no one gets to see the dog because the man is limited by MONEY.

The dogs on the major circuit that people scream and holler about all the time as the best stud in the country are all backed by MONEY it doesn't mean they are the best. It means that there owners have deep pockets.

i Do Not care what the papers say, a great dog can come from anywhere at any time. Ol' Joe that Bill Jones hunts 75 days a year on wild birds thruout the country can produce as nice or nicer dogs than most on the big scene but no one will breed to him and Bill does not care about raising pups so no one really gets to appreciate Ol' Joe. But his brother is backed by money on the circuit and can't produce a decent dog but the puppy sellers and paper chasers line up hand over fist to breed to this dog when the real jewel lies with his brother that is just a good ol hunting dog.

Here is a dose for you. You could not be MORE wrong. Money isn't it, it is the love of the sport that I have a dog with a pro. I would like to know what you consider "poor to average" income is. You statements couldn't be farther off base. I'm sorry sir, but you are wrong.

Love of the sport may be great but it doesn't pay the bills. 6 or 700 a month is just flat out of reach for most people. Our family had one income and 5 kids to get through school. Do the math and then think about how right it just might be.

Ezzy

[live4point]

If you want to beat the best,do you want to keep using the same thing everyone else has?

[R-Heaton]

If you want to beat the best,do you want to keep using the same thing everyone else has?

Ever notice that the "best" are not bred alike. I think the bigger key is to work hard at training, have your dog in condition go to a bunch of trials and hope for the best.

[live4point]

I like the way some of the pointer breeding is going now days.I have shyed away from pointers for years because of the big run in a big percentage of them,but with the popularity of the walking trials,I think a guy has a better chance now of getting a good foot hunting dog than in years past.I am not knocking horseback field trials a bit,it is a fine sport,but they are bred for the run and just range too far for me.It has been a long time ,but I will have a new pointer pup this year.We are seeing a rebirth of a lot of breedings geared towards the foothunter and I'm glad to see it.I hope to watch my new pointer without binoculars.

[RayGubernat]

Here is a dose of reality for some the only reason that people think that certain trial dogs are all that and a bag of chicken for breeding is that the dog's owners have MONEY.

Lets face it, a poor to average income guy can own the best dog in the country as far as producing or preforming but no one gets to see the dog because the man is limited by MONEY.

The dogs on the major circuit that people scream and holler about all the time as the best stud in the country are all backed by MONEY it doesn't mean they are the best. It means that there owners have deep pockets.

i Do Not care what the papers say, a great dog can come from anywhere at any time. Ol' Joe that Bill Jones hunts 75 days a year on wild birds thruout the country can produce as nice or nicer dogs than most on the big scene but no one will breed to him and Bill does not care about raising pups so no one really gets to appreciate Ol' Joe. But his brother is backed by money on the circuit and can't produce a decent dog but the puppy sellers and paper chasers line up hand over fist to breed to this dog when the real jewel lies with his brother that is just a good ol hunting dog.

I do not disagree with a great deal of what this gentleman says. However, to an extent he is in fact, missing the point.

There are a lot of amazing bird dogs out there and most of them will never get the chance to pass on their genes for a variety of reasons.

You can have the finest bird dog in the whole world, but if nobody outside of your circle of friends who have hunted over the dog knows that...the dog's genes will likely never be added to the breed gene pool in a meaningful way.

Identifying the best stud dog is kind of like going to the store to buy the absolute freshest, highest quality ingredients for a meal. You are not really paying for those ingredients. You are really paying for what must be thrown away or picked over and the other costs that must be incurred to end up with that absolutely perfect, fresh today, pepper or peach. You are paying for the transportation costs to bring that fish fillet fresh form the dock or all the parts of the steer that you must process and deal with just to get that one or two perfect fillets of Kobe beef form Kobe Japan. You are not paying for the sparkling wine...you are paying for the years of storage in centruies old cellars and the turning of the bottles, etc for that bottle of Dom Perignon '64 ... and so on.

In trying to identify the best dogs for stud purposes, you are in a very real way, paying for all the dogs that didn't make it to the top.

Part of what trialing does.. is to identifys AND publiicze the dog that has demonstrated superior performance in a public, judged event. Putting a dog in trials can be costly, and if you pursue the upper end of trialing, the championships... it gets darned expensive. However, that is not the beginning of the process...it is nearer to the end.

Before you can enter a dog in a trial, you have to have a super nice prospect puppy that you will train and socialize(or pay someone to do it). long about 8 months into the process of training and socialization, you will begin to get an idea of whether or not you actually have something you can win with. If it is a setter we are talking about, it can be a whole lot longer than eight months.

Then, when you are fairly certain you have a competitive prospect, yo start the training process in earnest with birds, trips to places with lots of birds, places with different types of terrain and cover, places with different species of birds.

Assuming the prospect continues to progress and develop and impress with its abilities...and hasn't been injured or killed or ruined by the trainer it is time to enter the dog in some juvenile stakes. Once the dog has demonstrated its ability to cometed successfully in juveinile stakes...THEN you can start thinking about how much it is going to cost to campaign the dog , and THEN the real money outlay starts.

Sure, the development of a top shooting or all age dog is beyond the means of most folks. No argument there. There are even more folks who have the means, but not the desire to engage in the process.

BUT...all the money in the world won't make a clunker into a multiple champion. You gotta have a great dog first.

And that multiple champion is the dog that gets the attention, not because somebody spent a kaboodle of money on them, but because that kaboodle of money found, identified and demonstrated, in a concrete way, that the dog is actually as good as the salesman says it is.

Lots of folks can say they have the greatest bird dog that ever drew breath. They might even be right. Not so many can prove it...and the proving of it is the outrageously expensive part.

RayG

[ezzy333]

Part of what trialing does.. is to identifys AND publiicze the dog that has demonstrated superior performance in a public, judged event.

Ray, I understand what you are saying but I do think you need to add that you are proving the best trial performer and not the best hunting dog. It seems clear to me from my experience over the years that man made games prove which dogs are best at those games. We have evenhad to add classes that conform closer to how the dog works so it can compete. If a trial identified the best birddog then we woud not need different classes with different rules.

I still think and have witnessed it many many tyimes if you want the best dog for whatever you want then find dogs with those qualities and pick a puppy from those parents. This best dog thing will never be settled since there is no such thing. There may be a dog that runs bigger, hunts faster, or is a better companion and house pet than any other but the best in any of those catagories does not make it the best dog.

I do think the best dog for you or me is the dog that performs the way we like them to and since everyone has their own criteria we each will pick a different dog as the best. And we will all be right. Maybe this is why so many great hunting dogs come from the neighbors great hunting dog even though most of the trialers will call that a backyard breeder who just doesn't understand how to breed dogs.

Ezzy

[dudleysmith]

Here is a dose for you. You could not be MORE wrong. Money isn't it, it is the love of the sport that I have a dog with a pro. I would like to know what you consider "poor to average" income is. You statements couldn't be farther off base. I'm sorry sir, but you are wrong.

You can have all the love you want but a man that has a family income of 35k a year cannot afford to put a dog on the major circuit. Love all you want, but this guy may have some of the best dogs to ever live but there is no way he can afford to run a dog on the circuit it would be hard to even run in a few walking trials.

If you think only the best dogs are with the pros you are wrong. If the pockets are deep enough a mediocre dog can have a Ch put on him like it or not it happens. Then guess what now this average dog is a Ch, and everybody and their brother is running to breed to him. Now i ask you is this bettering the breed or is this a classic case of money running the show?

Here is a example a guy living in the midwest that has a income of 60k a year goes out and buys a couple of pups from 2 guys that are diehard hunters and he devotes his next 5 years to train and run these dogs on as many birds as possible. One of these dogs was a natural dog that just seemed to find birds every time he was put down was broke out to wing to shot by 1 year old and just flat out was impressive. One summer evening this guy is on his way to the praires to put his 2 new pups on a few of the many wild birds there when he comes upon a truck and trailer with dogs and horses that is broken down on the side of the road he stops and helps the guy and they start talking and before you know it they are heading out and the guy that was broken down tells this guy to come by his house that he is staying and that they would run a few dogs together since he was going to be there a few days alone before his help arrived. The next morning these two guys put down several dogs and the pro handler tells the guy to put his dog down and see how he does. To make a long story short this backyard bred dog was down with 4 Ch dogs and flat out embarassed them. Because this dog is owned by a diehard hunter and not a competive guy his dog will never be bred, but these dogs that had it handed to them are bred by the hundreds. So my question by breeding these dogs that were "flat out embarssed by every aspect" are they bettering the breed?? the only reason these dogs are Ch is because money is backing them they would not even make a good hunting dog for someone but thousands of $$ are tied up in them so they made Ch.

[dudleysmith]

Part of what trialing does.. is to identifys AND publiicze the dog that has demonstrated superior performance in a public, judged event.

Ray, I understand what you are saying but I do think you need to add that you are proving the best trial performer and not the best hunting dog. It seems clear to me from my experience over the years that man made games prove which dogs are best at those games. We have evenhad to add classes that conform closer to how the dog works so it can compete. If a trial identified the best birddog then we woud not need different classes with different rules.

I still think and have witnessed it many many tyimes if you want the best dog for whatever you want then find dogs with those qualities and pick a puppy from those parents. This best dog thing will never be settled since there is no such thing. There may be a dog that runs bigger, hunts faster, or is a better companion and house pet than any other but the best in any of those catagories does not make it the best dog.

I do think the best dog for you or me is the dog that performs the way we like them to and since everyone has their own criteria we each will pick a different dog as the best. And we will all be right. Maybe this is why so many great hunting dogs come from the neighbors great hunting dog even though most of the trialers will call that a backyard breeder who just doesn't understand how to breed dogs.

Ezzy

I agree with you 100% on this. well written.

[Yawallac]

I like the way some of the pointer breeding is going now days.I have shyed away from pointers for years because of the big run in a big percentage of them,but with the popularity of the walking trials,I think a guy has a better chance now of getting a good foot hunting dog than in years past.I am not knocking horseback field trials a bit,it is a fine sport,but they are bred for the run and just range too far for me.It has been a long time ,but I will have a new pointer pup this year.We are seeing a rebirth of a lot of breedings geared towards the foothunter and I'm glad to see it.I hope to watch my new pointer without binoculars.

live4point,

I really hope that you enjoy your new pointer pup, but I must admit that when I read posts like yours it makes me cringe....

I just walked in the door from running my avatar pup in a Horseback Derby stake against some pretty stiff competition. There was no Puppy stake so I bumped him up. He has won Derby stakes recently in walking trials but this was a much tougher group of contenders.

My boy ran a great race reaching to the front and hanging on the edges. At 15 he had a spectacular 40 yard honor standing tall and proud broadside to the gallery and judges as we approached over a hill. I rode slowly to his far side to not block the onlookers and remained calmly mounted. The other handler looked toward me and I nodded that my dog was fine. Jack stood motionless, head and tail high as the handler flushed his dog's bird. All was fine with both dogs.

We continued on the course into some tall pines. Jack was running the edge along a clearcut ..at 21 he slammed into a point facing back toward the tall pines in what appeared to be open forest floor. I rode near him and dismounted. There was nothing close to him with any cover. All I could see were scatttered pine cones and nothing resembling a bird. I moved to him from the side and began making half circles in front of him trying to produce a bird. As I got further and further I began to fear the worst. Perhaps he was going to have an unproductive which would surely eliminate him from consideration. But then I remembered from training ... telling myself many times ...."If Jack points, FIND the bird." ...because there is ALWAYS a bird.

Just as I was thinking to not give up I spotted the quail. He was about 35 yards exactly to the front of where Jack was pointing. I carefully began to position myself to flush the bird away but the bird did not cooperate. He lifted and flew directly back toward Jack's head before I could get into position. Again, I expected disaster! But Jack barely moved. He shifted slightly as the bird's wing about grazed his head ...but he resisted temptation and remained steady. I fired and all was in order.

..................not sure why I wrote all that but it was fun replaying his run in my head. Pretty spectacular for a pup IMO.

But my point is this, his blood is not "new". He has not been bred for the "foot hunter". You don't need binoculars to see him run. This is the same pup that just received a NAVHDA 108 PII and he has several placements in Walking trials. That's why I hate the stereotyping of Pointers. They are NOT as you described them ...now ...or in the past. If a Pointer pup is socialized properly, bonded with, and nurtured, as you would any other breed, they will train and behave as any other pointing breed.

Again, best of luck with your new pup!!

BTW, Jack took 2nd!!!!!

[live4point]

Dang,I ticked of the Llewellin people and now the Pointer people-Thank's for the luck on my new pup and congratulations on your dogs-by the way,how many feet of log chain do I need to start out with on my new pup to slow him down? Just kiddin'

[dudleysmith]

How many guys that are a dept manager at Wal-mart, work at McDonalds, a city employee, or any other blue collar job do you see at a horseback field trial?

Now how many pups are sold to these types of guys??

Now someone tell me how are we getting the best dogs in the country to bred too? if the majority of the population cannot aford to field trial.

[RayGubernat]

Guys -

I have some reservations about agreeing with you on the best trial dog versus the best hunting dog thing. The reason I have a problem with that is because trials have been going on for over a hundred years in this country and we have been selecting our stud dogs, and brood matrons in some cases on the basis of these trials. Like it or not, these trial dogs are where the vast majority of the hunting dogs come from, if not close up, then back a generation or two. It might be diluted...but it's in there.

If there was indeed a split, as there certainly is between field and show...I think, in a hundred plus years, it would be kinda obvious. It ain't obvious to me. In fact , I feel that the average bird dog, certainly the average pointer that is available to the hunter today is a far better dog than it was forty some odd years ago, when I started paying attention to the wanderings of bird dogs.

When I was talking of field trial champions, I specifically stated "multiple" champions. I agree that any dog can get lucky...once, or have a great day...once. Multiple champions tend to be great every day.

In response to the concerns about different "classes" of stakes, meaning, I assume the different dogs that excel in Horseback all age, versus, horseback shooting dog versus cover dog, versus walking shooting dog and the why's of those different kinds of competitions I wouls like to offer two thoughts for consideration...

The first thought relates to field trials themselves. It is a fact that that so many more folks can and do participate in the sport of field trialing , than did so at first. Up until WWII, field trialing was indeed a sport of the landed elite and the wealthy. Today, folks of much more modest means are able to field trial...at some level. To train, develop and campaign a horseback all age dog takes huge expanses of property and a stable of horses. Conversely, ANY dedicated bird hunter posesses all they need to develop and compete with a walking shooting dog or a grouse dog. Horseback shooting dogs are somewhere in between the two.

My second thought relates to breeding. It is well accepted that the pups produced by a specific sire or dam almost never grow up to outperform their parents. In fact, it is a succesful breeding if most of the pups are as good as their parents. The way the various types of trials are conducted today, they tend to showcase and reward somewhat different talents in the competitors. The all age stakes tend to reward the dog with independence, endless endurance, indomitable spirit and the courage to run through adversity. The horseback shooting dog stake tends to reward the dog that is animated, exudes energy and is a joy to look at while running and spectacular when on its birds. The walking shooting dog and I believe cover dog stakes tend to reward the dog that looks good on the ground even moreso while maintaining a much more abvious level of contact with the handler in the field.

These distinctions give the breeder a whole host of choices and options that simply did not exist before. If you have horseback shooting dogs that are not punching out with the authority that you want, or which do not seem to maintain a high energy level throughout the entire stake, but fade towards the end...an injection of all age blood might be very appropriate and beneficial. If, on the other hand, your horseback shooting dogs are tending to develop "selective deafness" afield, an injection of walking shooting dog blood might help in that area.

The hunter can use the dogs that excel in these various arenas to better help him produce the kind of dog he wants to hunt over, without bringing in additional capabilities and tendencies that may detract from the desired end product.

At least that is what I think. Opinions may vary. Thanks for reading all the way through.

RayG

[RayGubernat]

How many guys that are a dept manager at Wal-mart, work at McDonalds, a city employee, or any other blue collar job do you see at a horseback field trial?

Now how many pups are sold to these types of guys??

Now someone tell me how are we getting the best dogs in the country to bred too? if the majority of the population cannot aford to field trial.

Let me see. horseback trialers i know and have competed with...

I am an analytical chemist. I know one fellow who is a union boilermaker. I know another long time trialer who was a body and fender man and auto painter. I know another who was a dispatcher for a solid waste disposal company. One fellow who no longer trials due to health, installs and services conveyors in warehouses. I know a couple of folks who were salesmen. I know a veterinarian... no... I know three veterinarians, one doctor and one podiatrist(I think) who trial. I know two school teachers who trial. I also know several folks who could buy and sell me with their pocket change that trial. I know a computer guy who competes and an operating engineer who trials. I could go on, but my head is starting to hurt. I'm getting too old to think this long.

There is a lot more diversity than you might imagine. The above is all absolutely true, especially the head hurting part. :

I bet you would fit right in. I did...well I did once I quit falling off my horse.

Take care.

RayG

[ezzy333]

In fact , I feel that the average bird dog, certainly the average pointer that is available to the hunter today is a far better dog than it was forty some odd years ago, when I started paying attention to the wanderings of bird dogs.

I agree but I am not sure it came just from trial dogs. For a matter of fact, I am sure it hasn't even though there is nothing wrong with them if that is the type of dog you want. Most of my dogs over the years has a sprinkleing of trial blood in them but it was normally several generations back. Of course there were a couple of exceptions. But my dogs came from a kennel that produced more show champions than any kennel in history. Hr made a point of breeding good looking hunting dogs. And he sure was successful. I have seen few dogs that were nicer to hunt behind than his dogs. I have tried hard to follow his lead and raised and trained a whole lot of dogs and I had one litter out of a Dual Champion. Other than that they were bred very much like the dogs I started with. I found over those years that field trial breeding was a considered a detriment by the average person wanting a puppy. So the trial dogs I did breed to were normally gun dogs and not AA type.

I do think today the trial dogs are being bred better than they were 40 years ago when everyone was breeding for run and there was little importance put on hunting. But that seems to be getting better. I still want to have a dog that can do well in the show ring but it has to show me it will hunt before it gets there. I would love to play the trial game also but I have never been financially able to compete on a regular basis even though I have had some dogs that were able to. But it still comes back to breeding hunting dogs and the dogs that produce hunting dogs are hunting dogs. I have never experienced this lessening of ability in the pups as they continue to just get better as long as you are breeding the good dogs to good dogs and the pups do a great job of what their parents do whether it be 50 or 500 yards ahead. I guess what I am saying is the amount of run is not an important indicator of hunting ability to me.

Ezzy

[R-Heaton]

So my question by breeding these dogs that were "flat out embarssed by every aspect" are they bettering the breed??

Ok Dudley,,, but would the reverse be true,,,lets say you have the same dogs but the owners pocket books were reversed. Would the great hunting dog make a champion field trial dog and a less experienced hunting dog and would the champion dogs make an exceptional bird dog if that was the venue that the experienced all there lives. I see your point but on the other hand,, there is nothing from stopping you from putting an add in the American Field explaining your great wild bird dog a few cool pics and seeing what happens. I personally know of alot of pros that go to great wild bird dogs champions or not.

[Duane M]

I agree but I am not sure it came just from trial dogs. For a matter of fact, I am sure it hasn't even though there is nothing wrong with them if that is the type of dog you want. Most of my dogs over the years has a sprinkleing of trial blood in them but it was normally several generations back. Of course there were a couple of exceptions. But my dogs came from a kennel that produced more show champions than any kennel in history. Hr made a point of breeding good looking hunting dogs. And he sure was successful. I have seen few dogs that were nicer to hunt behind than his dogs. I have tried hard to follow his lead and raised and trained a whole lot of dogs and I had one litter out of a Dual Champion. Other than that they were bred very much like the dogs I started with. I found over those years that field trial breeding was a considered a detriment by the average person wanting a puppy. So the trial dogs I did breed to were normally gun dogs and not AA type.

I do think today the trial dogs are being bred better than they were 40 years ago when everyone was breeding for run and there was little importance put on hunting. But that seems to be getting better. I still want to have a dog that can do well in the show ring but it has to show me it will hunt before it gets there. I would love to play the trial game also but I have never been financially able to compete on a regular basis even though I have had some dogs that were able to. But it still comes back to breeding hunting dogs and the dogs that produce hunting dogs are hunting dogs. I have never experienced this lessening of ability in the pups as they continue to just get better as long as you are breeding the good dogs to good dogs and the pups do a great job of what their parents do whether it be 50 or 500 yards ahead. I guess what I am saying is the amount of run is not an important indicator of hunting ability to me.

Ezzy

Ezzy I can see some points of yours BUT how do you know that 40 years ago they were bred for more run? I ask this because the group of trialers I know who are all in thier late 60s and up say exactly the opposite of your post. Change your 40 for 15 though and you would have a point. Many of the walking guys I know who quit did so because about 10-15 years ago the walking stakes definitely did start to look at two issues, range and style, in preference to other issues that many feel a bird dog does need. The HB all tell me that todays SD was an AA in the past and todays AA was considered a run off. I feel that is changing some now however.

I cant agree totally though with your thoughts of the trial dogs not being what works matter of fact todays and the rest of the seasons results are the opposite. My best hunting dogs all come from Ch blood in two generations and all are hunted off foot in rough terrain. Examples today I took a double bred Millers Dateline, a Doublecross Slim X Rebel Wrangler, an Elhew Seahorse son, a double bred Guard Rail and one from non traditional trialed lines(his sire did some NSTRA). The top two finders were the Miller and the Seahorse dogs next was the Doublcross, next was the Guard Rail, last was the non tested. Thats been the results all season now when I hunt the ones I have from non tested lines the results are pretty much find for find. Funny thing is today it was the oldest at 13 and the youngest at 3 who did the most finding, the most and the least experienced led the way for an 11 covey day. Last weekend in Texas it was the same my trial bred laid a smackdown on my hosts dogs, all from non traditional trial lines and moreover my hosts dogs knew the place we hunted and mine had never been there.

I realize this post may well seem contrary to my others but there is a link. All the dogs I listed were proven on wild birds, not just libbys, be it in Texas, Oklahoma or the Praries all were proven to be efficent and consistent wild bird dogs. Theres a big diff in the lines who were "proven" on nothing but libbys and the ones proven on wild. Oh yeah the easiest to control dogs are by far the Miller and the Guard Rail. The Miller does not even wear an ecollar just the Tracker, accidents happen and I aint takin no chances with this girl.

[Yawallac]

Oh yeah the easiest to control dogs are by far the Miller and the Guard Rail.

You must have mutants.

As far as the never-ending contrast between libby trained and trialed vs. wild bird trained and trialed, I say falderash!! Pointing instinct is pointing instinct, nose is nose, intelligence is intelligence....

A libby Champion is no less a Champion just because it's libbys. When was the last time a wild bird tried to commit suicide by running under the dogs feet or hop back into his face. That temptation is only enjoyed by the libby trialed dogs!!

[cgbirddogs]

Oh yeah the easiest to control dogs are by far the Miller and the Guard Rail.

You must have mutants.

As far as the never-ending contrast between libby trained and trialed vs. wild bird trained and trialed, I say falderash!! Pointing instinct is pointing instinct, nose is nose, intelligence is intelligence....

A libby Champion is no less a Champion just because it's libbys. When was the last time a wild bird tried to commit suicide by running under the dogs feet or hop back into his face. That temptation is only enjoyed by the libby trialed dogs!!

I'd have to disagree. I've seen first hand a libby champion never able to pick up the wild bird game. Finding wild birds require considerable more intelligence than libbys.

[Yawallac]

I'd have to disagree. I've seen first hand a libby champion never able to pick up the wild bird game. Finding wild birds require considerable more intelligence than libbys.

Oh, OK..... you've seen "first hand a libby champion never able to pick up the wild bird game". So that leads you to the conclusion that it takes "considerable more intelligence"??

Nonsense, many do both.

[DGFavor]

When was the last time a wild bird tried to commit suicide by running under the dogs feet or hop back into his face.

Exactly the point - libby's don't care if they are found, no survival instinct whatsoever. How tough is it to find a bird that doesn't care if it gets found?? In your trial report, you mention finding a quail out in the middle of nothing where you wouldn't even expect a bird to be...what's a dog even doing hunting that area would be my question as a judge/bird dog guy. Hopefully just passing thru on it's way to some better habitat.

IMO, libby birds that fly directly at dogs or run under their feet, turn trials into nothing more than an obedience test.

Pointing instinct is pointing instinct, nose is nose, intelligence is intelligence....

I won't argue that but I would argue that those qualities are not equally tested in wild bird and libby venues. To claim your dog superior in those qualities after being tested only on libbies I feel is an unsupported claim. IMO, If you want to really evaluate what you've got in a bird dog(s), you gotta test 'em on the real thing in real country...on many, many outings.

What was the original question??

[Sharon]

I like the way some of the pointer breeding is going now days.I have shyed away from pointers for years because of the big run in a big percentage of them,but with the popularity of the walking trials,I think a guy has a better chance now of getting a good foot hunting dog than in years past.I am not knocking horseback field trials a bit,it is a fine sport,but they are bred for the run and just range too far for me.It has been a long time ,but I will have a new pointer pup this year.We are seeing a rebirth of a lot of breedings geared towards the foothunter and I'm glad to see it.I hope to watch my new pointer without binoculars.

live4point,

I really hope that you enjoy your new pointer pup, but I must admit that when I read posts like yours it makes me cringe....

I just walked in the door from running my avatar pup in a Horseback Derby stake against some pretty stiff competition. There was no Puppy stake so I bumped him up. He has won Derby stakes recently in walking trials but this was a much tougher group of contenders.

My boy ran a great race reaching to the front and hanging on the edges. At 15 he had a spectacular 40 yard honor standing tall and proud broadside to the gallery and judges as we approached over a hill. I rode slowly to his far side to not block the onlookers and remained calmly mounted. The other handler looked toward me and I nodded that my dog was fine. Jack stood motionless, head and tail high as the handler flushed his dog's bird. All was fine with both dogs.

Thanks for writing that out. Enjoyed it immensely. Congrats.

We continued on the course into some tall pines. Jack was running the edge along a clearcut ..at 21 he slammed into a point facing back toward the tall pines in what appeared to be open forest floor. I rode near him and dismounted. There was nothing close to him with any cover. All I could see were scatttered pine cones and nothing resembling a bird. I moved to him from the side and began making half circles in front of him trying to produce a bird. As I got further and further I began to fear the worst. Perhaps he was going to have an unproductive which would surely eliminate him from consideration. But then I remembered from training ... telling myself many times ...."If Jack points, FIND the bird." ...because there is ALWAYS a bird.

Just as I was thinking to not give up I spotted the quail. He was about 35 yards exactly to the front of where Jack was pointing. I carefully began to position myself to flush the bird away but the bird did not cooperate. He lifted and flew directly back toward Jack's head before I could get into position. Again, I expected disaster! But Jack barely moved. He shifted slightly as the bird's wing about grazed his head ...but he resisted temptation and remained steady. I fired and all was in order.

..................not sure why I wrote all that but it was fun replaying his run in my head. Pretty spectacular for a pup IMO.

But my point is this, his blood is not "new". He has not been bred for the "foot hunter". You don't need binoculars to see him run. This is the same pup that just received a NAVHDA 108 PII and he has several placements in Walking trials. That's why I hate the stereotyping of Pointers. They are NOT as you described them ...now ...or in the past. If a Pointer pup is socialized properly, bonded with, and nurtured, as you would any other breed, they will train and behave as any other pointing breed.

Again, best of luck with your new pup!!

BTW, Jack took 2nd!!!!!

Thanks for writing that out. Enjoyed it immensely. Congrats.

[cgbirddogs]

I'd have to disagree. I've seen first hand a libby champion never able to pick up the wild bird game. Finding wild birds require considerable more intelligence than libbys.

Oh, OK..... you've seen "first hand a libby champion never able to pick up the wild bird game". So that leads you to the conclusion that it takes "considerable more intelligence"??

Nonsense, many do both.

Perhaps I should have further qualified my response by saying finding wild birds requires considerable more intelligence than finding pen raised birds. Surely you would agree with that concept?

[ezzy333]

Oh yeah the easiest to control dogs are by far the Miller and the Guard Rail.

You must have mutants.

As far as the never-ending contrast between libby trained and trialed vs. wild bird trained and trialed, I say falderash!! Pointing instinct is pointing instinct, nose is nose, intelligence is intelligence....

A libby Champion is no less a Champion just because it's libbys. When was the last time a wild bird tried to commit suicide by running under the dogs feet or hop back into his face. That temptation is only enjoyed by the libby trialed dogs!!

My seniments exactly. I have never checked to see how wild a bird is or where it was raised. And I don't believe my dogs do either. They seem to point all of the birds they find though it may take a little experience to hunt different speices or different terrain. A bird dog that can't do that is lacking something I would guess but I can't say for sure since I have never encountered one.

Ezzy

[Yawallac]

Perhaps I should have further qualified my response by saying finding wild birds requires considerable more intelligence than finding pen raised birds. Surely you would agree with that concept?

Nope, I don't agree.

I think that it takes EXPERIENCE to handle wild birds, not necessarily "more intelligence". But that's just my opinion hunting wild birds with my dumb libby chasing trial dogs.

[Duane M]

Oh yeah the easiest to control dogs are by far the Miller and the Guard Rail.

You must have mutants.

Not at all. The Miller dogs I have raised have all been very easy to handle dogs, Ferrel valued that quality and bred for it. I have raised up three litters from his sires and every one was a very biddable dog. Theres a reason dogs from his linewin the way they do ya know and do so in so many venues to boot. The Rail could change as Jack did but so far she shows no tendency to become an outlaw like grandpa did.

Far as the wild Vs. Libs arguement I'll simply ask how many days a year do you hunt wild birds. Not prerealeased but truly wild.

[ezzy333]

Far as the wild Vs. Libs arguement I'll simply ask how many days a year do you hunt wild birds. Not prerealeased but truly wild.

Answer to that is everyday we are in the field. I have never instructed the dogs to ignore either wild, pre-released, or planted as long as they aren't planted too deep. Hunt S.Dakota and the dogs would go nuts if they had to just hunt one or the other. Kind of like the people who claim their dog only hunts roosters. Makes a great stoy but you never see it happen.

Ezzy

[Yawallac]

Not at all. The Miller dogs I have raised have all been very easy to handle dogs, Ferrel valued that quality and bred for it. I have raised up three litters from his sires and every one was a very biddable dog. Theres a reason dogs from his linewin the way they do ya know and do so in so many venues to boot. The Rail could change as Jack did but so far she shows no tendency to become an outlaw like grandpa did.

Surely you knew that I was being facetious. I guess you must have missed my 1300+ posts extolling the virtues and biddablity of Pointers!!

As far as Jack (Guard Rail) is concerned, I believe that he was just misunderstood!! BTW, Gene never lost him in a trail and he ran him in many AM. stakes.

Far as the wild Vs. Libs arguement I'll simply ask how many days a year do you hunt wild birds. Not prerealeased but truly wild.

I hunt woodcock as many days as I can. This year has been slow because I have been busy. However, in a typical year I'll hunt most the season 20-30 days. I also hunt a fair amount of quail on the managed areas in SC and they do a pretty good job. That's another 15-30 days in a typical year.

Mtlee has been telling me that the birds are here and it's killing me!! Trying to get to the coast this week!!

[Duane M]

Nah I knew you was kiddin but forgot to add those afterwards. Jack was misunderstood, he thought he was a coursing hound but everyone else disagreed.

OK now come on Doodles are easy birds man, I love having a litter of pups when the flights come through gives em great practice. What I am talking of is wild quail(s) bobs and blues and ditch parrots on pressured public lands and Prarie Chickens. True a dog must have more "finish" to handle a dumb bird walking between the legs or the kamikaze who flys back toward it but thats done in training repetitions. The handling of the game before the flush makes the difference and I have seen more than one libby champ blow up on wild birds, thats not to say they did not get it eventually though. But I would like to see the dog who can handle the dumb bird between the legs avoid that temptation when it sees a covey of 50 blues hightailing it across the mesquite flats or a covey of 20 bobs as the run through the sage brush. Different game altogether.

[Duane M]

Far as the wild Vs. Libs arguement I'll simply ask how many days a year do you hunt wild birds. Not prerealeased but truly wild.

Answer to that is everyday we are in the field. I have never instructed the dogs to ignore either wild, pre-released, or planted as long as they aren't planted too deep. Hunt S.Dakota and the dogs would go nuts if they had to just hunt one or the other. Kind of like the people who claim their dog only hunts roosters. Makes a great stoy but you never see it happen.

Ezzy

[Yawallac]

Different game altogether.

I agree with that completely. My only point is that I don't believe it takes "considerable more intelligence" to do one over the other. It's just different. Does wild bird trialing take more experience for a dog to master? Sure it does. But I believe that a Champion with a great nose, pointing instinct, biddability and intelligence could be successful in either venue ...or where it matters most, in front of a gun.

Follow up: I have emailed and phoned Hampshire Kennels .........and nothing, not a word!!

EDIT: Strike that! They just called.....

[up-hunter]

this has really turned into a interesting thread. I have never trialed and don't really have much experience. But i would think if you took most well trained trial dogs that are run on libby's and yes they will struggle at first, but with enought exposure they would catch on to the wild birds.

I would it would think it's all about exposure.

[Duane M]

Nah I could not go with considerable more intelligence, Lord knows I have seen some dumb as rocks good hunting dogs. Worked with several of em unfortunately. Your on the spot a good Ch could do em both and do em well. Bayou Elvis and Hammer Down both were such dogs I had the priveledge to see in person do so. Shoot Chiefdog on this board has a couple of em that will do it as well, one just got his AFC and is a heck of a good wild bird dog and his little bitch is another good un who will eventually. Thing is in SOME venues the CH has never seen a wild bird in thier life so ya have zero idea whether they are a good bird dog or just a dog that knows all to well how to play the games they play. The games are simply training time and time on the course.

[BoJack]

Yaw,
" BTW, Gene never lost him in a trail and he ran him in many AM. stakes. " Gene may never have lost Ole Jack,but I think George Tracy can tell a different story.I've heard that Jack got peppered more then once with 410 birdshot to get him back in control.He should've been easy to understand.If you were running him in This State he was just going to Roll on over to the Next State to see what was over there.