elhew sires

Grouse Dog Guy · Post by **Grouse Dog Guy** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:38 pm

I saw old Jack, run a time or two, if he didn't find a bird early he was gone! He was a hard headed SOB and that may have something to do with the fact that Gene, still has those straws after all these years....

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:04 pm

I've heard that Jack got peppered more then once with 410 birdshot to get him back in control.

They were No.9s and they worked for a little while...

I saw old Jack, run a time or two, if he didn't find a bird early he was gone! He was a hard headed SOB and that may have something to do with the fact that Gene, still has those straws after all these years....

Good one!!

What kills you "Grouse Dog Guys" is that Pointers are taking over the Grouse woods.... Heeeeeeheeeeeeheeeee...

...and speaking of Elhew Sires, did you all realize that Snakefoot's dam was out of a Guard Rail son?? (It just never ends!!)

Grouse Dog Guy · Post by **Grouse Dog Guy** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:27 am

I have a kennel full of pointers and setters, hair doesn't make a dog good or bad!

Back in 1995 we drove to Alabama to breed to Snake Foot and after looking at him and talking to Bob's kennel boy we bred to Crazy Horse and we our glad we did!

In the dog world what impresses you today, may not be impressive tomorrow!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:28 pm

...after looking at him and talking to Bob's kennel boy

Yeah, kennel boys offer a lot of insight. :roll:

Unfortunately our kennel boys don't speak English...

Not sure what your point is anyway since Crazy Horse is out of Snakefoot and he has Guard Rail on top and bottom.....

BTW, I never could figure out why some folks own both Pointers and Setters... it's like you can't make up your mind whether you want "boy" dogs or "girly" dogs....

Bill Holtan · Post by **Bill Holtan** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:11 pm

Yawallac wrote:
...after looking at him and talking to Bob's kennel boy

Yeah, kennel boys offer a lot of insight. :roll:

Unfortunately our kennel boys don't speak English...

Not sure what your point is anyway since Crazy Horse is out of Snakefoot and he has Guard Rail on top and bottom.....

BTW, I never could figure out why some folks own both Pointers and Setters... it's like you can't make up your mind whether you want "boy" dogs or "girly" dogs....

I can't speak for everyone but I would guess that most have pointers to point liberated birds and setters to find wild birds.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:34 pm

That's pretty funny!

One thing's for sure ...you Setter guys are definitely in touch with your feminine side (I've been told that's a good thing).

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:06 pm

Ross, I will say, it was nice talking with you on the phone, but man, you have a way of trying to burn bridges. For a guy that is in the dog sales/trials/plantation/hunting line of work you sure aren't affraid to speak your mind. That takes a pair my friend.

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:07 pm

Ross a good friend and Shag owner told em one time:

"It's so that we kill some time with dogs by combing out those dam burrs since we find em so quick and get home before the ball game."

I asked him when his dogs were gonna live up to his claims as they had yet to be sighted pointing anything outside thier own reflection in the mirror and the odd turtle. Seems his MALE dogs were very enamored with themselves, wonder just how enamored they were with long haired males in general to be honest.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:19 pm

You know it's funny, I have heard many on here and some older trialers who say Jack while being hard headed at times was also one of if not the best single course SD. And that came from a SD guy who ran against Jack quite a bit while running dogs with the Rayl's.

Hmmm

Chip

Grouse Dog Guy · Post by **Grouse Dog Guy** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:33 pm

Duane M wrote:Ross a good friend and Shag owner told em one time:

"It's so that we kill some time with dogs by combing out those dam burrs since we find em so quick and get home before the ball game."

I asked him when his dogs were gonna live up to his claims as they had yet to be sighted pointing anything outside thier own reflection in the mirror and the odd turtle. Seems his MALE dogs were very enamored with themselves, wonder just how enamored they were with long haired males in general to be honest.

That's almost as funny as the guy that claims his stub tailed whatchamacallit was a bird dog :roll:

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:34 pm

Ross, I will say, it was nice talking with you on the phone, but man, you have a way of trying to burn bridges. For a guy that is in the dog sales/trials/plantation/hunting line of work you sure aren't affraid to speak your mind. That takes a pair my friend.

Elhewpointer,

Just friendly banter. Anyone who knows me, knows that I love all dogs. But poking fun at the Setter guys is just plain fun!!

Plus he started it!!

jakemaster · Post by **jakemaster** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:33 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:Ross, I will say, it was nice talking with you on the phone, but man, you have a way of trying to burn bridges. For a guy that is in the dog sales/trials/plantation/hunting line of work you sure aren't affraid to speak your mind. That takes a pair my friend.

Yeah he talks a mean game but you should see him with dogs.... you would think he was a tree hugger or something.

PS he has more than just pointers that he loves just the same.
Also setter guys he has a setter in the kennel that he is working with that he has a soft spot for.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:41 pm

Ahhhha.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:03 pm

This thread's done......

Took my Avatar (Jack) to John Ray today...... Man, I'm going to miss him.....

Next.

cgbirddogs · Post by **cgbirddogs** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:34 pm

Yawallac wrote:This thread's done......

Took my Avatar (Jack) to John Ray today...... Man, I'm going to miss him.....

Next.

So what have we learned?

1. Elhews rock; and
2. Guardrail was an Elhew

The End.

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:24 pm

Some Interesting and Accurate statistics compiled by the well know Frank Thompson(Pointers Breeder's Almanac) from American Field Records.Rail Dancer was Quite Popular for a stretch.Ole Jack shined in a few catagories also.http://www.fieldtrialpointers.net/SUP95.HTML

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:38 pm

Statistics from 1980-2000.This should give Pointer people something to study and Draw from.
http://www.fieldtrialpointers.net/pbaindex.html

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:47 pm

The Snake vs The Dancer-Hmmm
http://www.fieldtrialpointers.net/sum97com.html

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:44 am

I think the bottom side blood of both Ch Patato Patch Sue and Tex Ann Cindy would definately change the genetic picture in as much where Guard Rail couldn't be considered an Elhew.Apparently Wehle didn't consider him Elhew or he wouldn't have started breeding females to him when he was looking to out crosses for hybrid vigor.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:04 am

Bojack,

Thanks for posting. I love reading Frank's data. I found this of particular interest:

Elhew Snakefoot is making a serious run at the aging Rail Dancer in popularity although, in light of puppy wins, it appears that he (Snakefoot) doesn't have the prepotency of Rail Dancer. They're about equal in registrations, but Dancer's pups are winning about twice as frequently. As it currently stands, by any legimate measure, it appears that Rail Dancer is the proven most prepotent living sire. Any measure that doesn't reflect frequency of breeding is not legitimate.

Dwells · Post by **Dwells** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:59 am

With all this said about Snakefoot, Guardrail and others, anyone of us can only dream of having a dog in our kennels that has made the contribution to the breed that they have.

Grouse Dog Guy · Post by **Grouse Dog Guy** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:06 am

BoJack wrote:I think the bottom side blood of both Ch Patato Patch Sue and Tex Ann Cindy would definately change the genetic picture in as much where Guard Rail couldn't be considered an Elhew.Apparently Wehle didn't consider him Elhew or he wouldn't have started breeding females to him when he was looking to out crosses for hybrid vigor.

Bob told me breeding his females to Jack was line breeding. He also told me breeding McGoo females to Duns Fearless Bud was the best outcross he ever did.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:28 am

Bob told me breeding his females to Jack was line breeding.

Yeah, after it was successful, prior he considered it an outcross.

That comes from Gene...

Fact is that Guard Rail was the product of an outcross to Rebel. It's a stretch to call that "line breeding" IMO. Good breeding to be sure, but not line breeding. I believe that Bob mentioned that he considered Guard Rail to be an "Elhew" bred dog in his book. Revisionism is beautiful thing...

cgbirddogs · Post by **cgbirddogs** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:53 am

Yawallac wrote:
Bob told me breeding his females to Jack was line breeding.

Yeah, after it was successful, prior he considered it an outcross.

That comes from Gene...

Fact is that Guard Rail was the product of an outcross to Rebel. It's a stretch to call that "line breeding" IMO. Good breeding to be sure, but not line breeding. I believe that Bob mentioned that he considered Guard Rail to be an "Elhew" bred dog in his book. Revisionism is beautiful thing...

An outcross to a Rebel? Just because Nell's Rambling On was by A Rambling Rebel? What about Nell's Rambling On's Elhew Mother? What About Smart, whose father was linebred Elhew? I'm not a geneticist, but it looks to me that Guardrail was more Elhew than Rebel. By saying Guardrail is a Rebel because Nell's Rambling On is by A Rambling Rebel, you could say Addition's Go Boy (who was by Builder's Addition) was a Rebel as well, or any of Nell's sons or daughters were Rebel dogs. That's revisitionist history in my books.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:06 am

I would say the reason they say Jack is more Rebel than Elhew was because his traits were more from A Rambling Rebel than the Elhew stuff, so I have been told, now Ross you have had both Rebel bred and Elhew, now breeding so much on Jack, what would you say? Does he produce more like the Rebel dogs or more like the Elhew dogs? Now to know for sure, it would be nice if you have seen Rambling Rebel, or Nell to compare that to Jack.

Just a thought,
Chip

up-hunter · Post by **up-hunter** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:59 am

Ross those rail dancer x sara pups your planning on should be really really nice pups, i would imagine you are keeping them all.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:30 pm

An outcross to a Rebel? Just because Nell's Rambling On was by A Rambling Rebel? What about Nell's Rambling On's Elhew Mother? What About Smart, whose father was linebred Elhew? I'm not a geneticist, but it looks to me that Guardrail was more Elhew than Rebel. By saying Guardrail is a Rebel because Nell's Rambling On is by A Rambling Rebel, you could say Addition's Go Boy (who was by Builder's Addition) was a Rebel as well, or any of Nell's sons or daughters were Rebel dogs. That's revisitionist history in my books.

Hey Clarence, relax man! You're starting to sound like a Setter guy!!

I didn't say that Jack was "more" or "less" of anything! I said that he was NOT line bred Elhew.... How can you argue that?? Anyway the revisionism was that Wehle considered Jack to be an outcross (from Gene) and yet after it was successful he called Jack an Elhew bred dog. That to me is funny. Sorry that it offends you.

Chip,

I never saw A Rambling Rebel run but I heard that he could lay it down! ...and I don't know if Guard Rail possessed more Rebel or Elhew qualities. All I know is that I like the bird dog that I get out of his blood. I consistently get intelligence, natural retrieving, biddable and bird finding animals.

Up-hunter,

"My" plan is to keep them all ....but Jakemaster is a business man and may have other ideas. Unfortunately he has a vote!!

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:33 pm

Yawallac wrote:I never saw A Rambling Rebel run but I heard that he could lay it down! ...and I don't know if Guard Rail possessed more Rebel or Elhew qualities. All I know is that I like the bird dog that I get out of his blood. I consistently get intelligence, natural retrieving, biddable and bird finding animals.

Don't mean to jump in the middle of this discussion, but I never get tired of hearing a breeder talk about natural retrieving when breeding. It seems during my search for a new puppy that trait is taking a back seat these days.

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:56 pm

The Top of Ch Smart's pedigree may be Elhew and the bottom of Nell's Rambling On has Some Elhew,but Different Elhew dogs.That doesn't constitute a linebreeding in my opinion.What particular Elhew dog (s)was Guardrail linebred on?? None.And the other blood that's not Elhew should be considered also,which is Not Elhew.

WMerrifield · Post by **WMerrifield** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:41 pm

Sinbad is a great dog and has produced some good puppies, but he is only one half Elhew, his sire is 6XChampion Island Grove Brute.

WMerrifield · Post by **WMerrifield** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:03 pm

The common factor in Swami,Sunflower and Hannibell is not snakefoot but Hanna Lou.

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:25 pm

WMerrifield wrote:The common factor in Swami,Sunflower and Hannibell is not snakefoot but Hanna Lou.

Sure it wasn't the owners willingness to keep paying the bills?

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:45 pm

R-Heaton wrote:
WMerrifield wrote:The common factor in Swami,Sunflower and Hannibell is not snakefoot but Hanna Lou.
Sure it wasn't the owners willingness to keep paying the bills?

I guess I don't understand your point. Isn't it the willingness of any owner to keep a dog going. They were winning over dogs who had owners that were willing to keep paying the bills also.?. I guess if my dog was chasing the all-time championship record for Shooting Dogs, I'd keep em' out there also. I agree with WMerrifield that Hanna's Elhew Lou is the common factor. She is one heck of a producer.

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:02 pm

WMerrifield wrote:
The common factor in Swami,Sunflower and Hannibell is not snakefoot but Hanna Lou[quote]

I agree with that.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:06 am

R Heaton -

It seems you are operating under a misconception. Nothing in this world is free. Most things worth doing in the way of sport...ain't cheap either.

Owning a dog...any dog... is not without costs. Some dogs cost more than others.

Training a dog ...any dog... is not without costs. Some training costs more than others.

Participating in sports with a dog...any dog... is not without costs. When one wishes to hunt upland game, one must typically buy a license to hunt in that state. When one wishes to enter a field trial they must pay the entry fee for that trial.

If you want to hunt at a five star ranch in Texas, you have to pay the cost of the hunting package if your choice. If you want to run your dog in a major circuit championship, you must qualify your dog and pay the required entry fees.

The rewards are different. The hunter may consider their reward a full gamebag and the delicious meal it will provide. The trialer may consider their reward that ribbon and the recognition that it will bring to the dog.

If one lives in Chicago and wishes to hunt upland birds in Texas, one must provide transportation for themselves and their dog to the place of hunting ...and back. Same with attendance at a trial. If you want to hunt at a five star ranch in Texas, you have to pay the price they ask for that hunt. If you want to run a dog in a trial, you have to pay the entry fee.

If that Chicago hunter shots a limit of birds in Texas over their dog at a five star ranch the field trialer should not expect to get a share of that limit of birds, or sit in at dinner after the hunt, because the field trialer did not pay the price of the outing.

If a trialer places a dog in a trial or wins a championship, the hunter should not expect a piece of that ribbon or the recognition that goes with it, because that hunter did not run the dog or pay the entry fee.

We all pursue our sport as we choose. We spend our money as we choose. Anything to do with dogs and hunting or trialing...costs money. Sometimes LOTS of money. None of it is for free.

If you want to hunt your dog, you have to buy a hunting license. If you want to get a field trial placement on your dog, and one of those stupid colored ribbons, you have to pay the entry fee.

That is just the way it is.

RayG

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:20 am

Ray,,,,my point was simply "what makes good dogs are good owners". Ask any pro on the major circuit or even on a small circuit trainer.

What would you prefer given the choice,,, to sell your pups to pure wild bird hunters or to somebody that would like to "get into" field trialing.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:32 pm

R Heaton -

Seeing as how I have raised excatly two litters in the last thirty years...it isn't a big deal for me. In each case I had a litter of pups because I really wanted a dog out of the parents. Most of the time I can buy a better dog than I can breed. Most of the time, that is what I have done. Less money and aggravation too.

But since you asked...

My preference would be for someone who would absolutely hunt the bejabbers out of the dog. If they want to trial also, that is great, but it would be a bonus. There are no wild birds anywhere near me, and haven't been for at least twenty years, so that would not be practical as a desire. However, the dogs don't know or care if the bird is wild or penraised. They just want to hunt.

If I could not place the pups I could not keep, in hunting homes, I would destroy them. They live and breathe to hunt, so if that is not a possibility, I will do what has to be done.

RayG

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:35 pm

RayGubernat wrote:R Heaton -

If I could not place the pups I could not keep, in hunting homes, I would destroy them. They live and breathe to hunt, so if that is not a possibility, I will do what has to be done.

RayG

Courageous comment. I agree. To place a dog who has been bred to run/hunt in a 'pet home" is cruel and unusual punishment to me. Not all would agree though.

I had a 5 year old GSP go blind at his prime. Still full of energy and a desire to hunt, even in the backyard he would run into trees, fences etc. After 5 trips to the vet to get large wounds stitched up, I decided to put him down. The vet was dead against it and gave me a very hard time. She felt I could walk him to the corner on a leash to satisfy him. She didn't know hunting dogs. I knew that dog. He would have requested death to not being able to run with his head to the wind, searching for that bird.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:06 am

Culling for genetic defects is one thing, but culling because you can't find a "hunting" home ...no thanks.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:00 pm

Yawallac wrote:Culling for genetic defects is one thing, but culling because you can't find a "hunting" home ...no thanks.

Ross -

That is one of the reasons why I ain't in the business.

I bred a litter about three years ago. Six pups. Wamted to keep two. I sold two pups, but no interest in the other two. I kept the four until they were ten months old and worked with them. When I was absolutely sure that the two dogs would not make the cut as amateur field trial dogs, I contacted some folks who hunted and was able to give them away without papers to two different hunters. I was and am fairly confident that both of those dogs will see lots of birds. I had already made preliminary arrangements to have the two dogs euthanized.

Where ilive there are no wild birds to speak of and very little interest in pointers as gun dogs. Most folks that want pointing dogs to hunt over want setters or shorthairs...not pointers. So, if they aren't trial quality, they are simply not wanted by very many folks.

Everyone has to do what they feel is right for them.

RayG

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:01 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
Yawallac wrote:Culling for genetic defects is one thing, but culling because you can't find a "hunting" home ...no thanks.
Ross -

That is one of the reasons why I ain't in the business.

I bred a litter about three years ago. Six pups. Wamted to keep two. I sold two pups, but no interest in the other two. I kept the four until they were ten months old and worked with them. When I was absolutely sure that the two dogs would not make the cut as amateur field trial dogs, I contacted some folks who hunted and was able to give them away without papers to two different hunters. I was and am fairly confident that both of those dogs will see lots of birds. I had already made preliminary arrangements to have the two dogs euthanized.

Where ilive there are no wild birds to speak of and very little interest in pointers as gun dogs. Most folks that want pointing dogs to hunt over want setters or shorthairs...not pointers. So, if they aren't trial quality, they are simply not wanted by very many folks.

Everyone has to do what they feel is right for them.

RayG

This is what happens when dogs become predominaly field trial dogs instead of hunting dogs in many peoples eyes. I keep trying to warn people that unless we get back to breeding hunting dogs for the common man we are going to end up destroying our breed of dogs. It's a great ploy to convince ourselves we are improving our dogs with field trials but in reality we are improving our dogs to win trials and not improving them for the purpose they were originally bred for. I have learned over the years when you are talking hunting dogs with the people who are wanting a family pet and hunting dog that you are much better off to not mention field trials at all. If you do you get one of two responses , either they have never heard of field trials or if they have they sure don't want a dog that performs like a trial dog does.

I am not saying they are always right but I am enough of a business man to know if you want to be successful you need to produce something your customer wants and not what you think he should want. It bothers me no end to read so many of the posts on our board about a dog being a great wild bird dog, or a birddog really isn't a birddog if it hasn't been hunted on wild birds. There just isn't anything further than the truth. For years past, birddogs hunted birds. And they still do. The great ones have learned from experience normally to handle whatever you are hunting through instinct and then experience. Some dogs seem to do better on some speicies than other dogs might, but normally any decent dog will be fine on whatever, especially after a little experience. As an example for years S.Dakota has released pheasants along with their native population. And for years many of the people who hunted there didn't even know it. But they were the same people who swear they only hunt "wild birds" and they come up with all sort of derogatory terms to describe a pen raised bird. And the best part is their dogs did a great job and I don't believe ever once apoligized for pointing and retrieving a pen raised bird. They just went out and hunted birds and enjoyed every minute of it.

And another staement you see is the AA dog has more desire. I think that may be true as I see my big running dogs have more desire to run but I sure don't see any more desire to hunt or find birds. Wide or close, a good hunting dog works their butts of to find a bird and both do it with style and grace. Get out on the prairies and that big running dog is a joy to watch and is equipped to hunt in a manner that may find more birds. Spend some time in the midwest and that close working dog will shine in the 20 or 30 acre field or hunting fence rows between picked fields of corn and will do it as well as it can be done. And there is not a single way you can say one of the dogs hunting style is better for finding birds or better for producing pups than the other.

Makes a whole lot of sense to me to look at what your market really is if you are a producer and also look at what you plan on doing with your dog both in the field and at home and then find the type dogs that fill that bill and get a puppy and work at giving it a chance to learn and develop into the type of dog you like. Do that and you will have a dog that will fill your needs and consequently go down as one of the great dogs of the breed in your eyes. And that is the true test of greatness and not how many wins it has or what kind of birds or where they came from that you hunt.

The only wild bird dogs I ever saw were heading over a hill never to be seen again. The ones that never went over the hill or if they did came back are just birddogs. A great one if it is yours and satisfies your wants nd desires.

Ezzy

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:46 pm

Ezzy - Your last post was so full of BS and half truths that it isn't worth categorizing. Some folks have bird dogs that hunt. Some folks have bird dogs that trial. Some folks have dogs that trial AND hunt.

Just because you won't t admit that a dog can indeed do a wonderful job, both as a trial contender and as a huntng partner, and that such a dog is indeed what we should be breeding to and breeding for, doesn't mean that it isn't the truth.

Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

RayG

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:39 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Ezzy - Your last post was so full of BS and half truths that it isn't worth categorizing. Some folks have bird dogs that hunt. Some folks have bird dogs that trial. Some folks have dogs that trial AND hunt.

Just because you won't t admit that a dog can indeed do a wonderful job, both as a trial contender and as a huntng partner, and that such a dog is indeed what we should be breeding to and breeding for, doesn't mean that it isn't the truth.

Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

RayG

Had no idea I was so confusing in my writings. I have two dogs I hunt with that are out of some of the best field trial dogs in the country. The few trials I have fooled with they have never failed to place. They might be able to do whatever you would like to do with them. But they are both birddogs and they do a good job whereever we have hunted though they do tend to run pretty big in the tight areas. But the dogs I had bred and raised over the years without that type of breeding were just as good and produced some pretty good dogs too.

I have never disagreed with the fact that some trial breeding is good and produce dogs that I like but as I said before most of the people who want a pup ask one question first and that is will the dogs work close. Nine out of ten think I let my dogs work way too big. So I do admit over the years I stayed away from any AA type dogs and occasionally did breed to a gundog but primarily the dogs were line bred from some great hunting dogs that I bred myself. Don't know what this has to do with people finding a dog that hunts like they want it to but I did want to clearup my position which seems to be almost exactly like yours when you say some birddogs hunt and some will trial also. That sounds like exactly what I said, find one that hunts like you want it too and you have a good dog no matter what you are hunting.

Ezzy