Do You Believe The AKC GSP Standards Are Flawed??

[vzkennels]

I think it depends on what lines you are looking at.I think the lines that started with the Moesggaard lines still look about the same.I do think you see more style today over all certainly more white but color has nothing to do with conformation.What are the big differences in your opinions that you are seeing ?

[bossman]

First of all...Prairegoat...Great looking dog!!...Adogslife has it right..If a dog hasn't proven itself in some 'Venue" in the field, they shouldn't got into the show ring. ..Wasn't the Irish Setter once a pretty good field dog? Then, I think it got over breed on the "show" side..Gosh..I havn't seen one in the field in years. Or is it the "Red" Setter now..Or the "Semi Irish Semi Red" Setter. Beautiful dog..Just appears most of the hunt has been breed out of it to make sure they produce the most beautiful or compititive dog for the show ring. Hunt with a guy that has a DC Brittany. He can show that dog in the ring on a Friday night, run him in am All Age stake on a Saturday and hunt him on a Sunday. No field accomplishment of some type...no ticket to get into the ring..Hope I havn't offended anyone. We must be breeding the best dogs for the field. The word "versatile" was used in the standard..don't think the founding fathers of the breed ever considered "dog shows".

[markj]

VZ plenty of wild birds here in Iowa, specially where I live, the dogs natural fetch, steadiness on point just isnt there in the FT lines I have. he FT dog I have will find the birds for sure but she used to bustem up before I could even get close. Had to spend a lot of time to train her away from that. The last german bred dog was a natural at all of that. Right out of the box at 9 months, same as the one before that. The breeders I once got dogs from are not alive and breeding.

"that started with the Moesggaard lines" That line is Danish, not German.

[vzkennels]

Mark you are lucky to have wild birds but we don't here in Ohio.My dogs today still have all the natural ability as my first ones but are much faster & more athletic.My avatar Dog Star has 4 points towards her FC both retrieving stakes & has never had the first day of FF & in fact excels at the call backs putting the FF dogs to shame.Charlie Rose has a solid Lvr sister to Star's mother & all he did was take her hunting just show them birds & they will pretty much do the rest.I like to let my dogs develop as natural as possible & then put some manners on them.I breed dogs that beginners can pretty much make bird dogs from & believe most GSPS still have that natural ability,just add birds. My first GSP more of the old German type,roman nose,slow methodical,tough,sharp,loyale,but taught me more then I ever tauhgt her.A so called meat dog not very pretty or stylish but rarely got skunked in the 12 yrs she lived.I remember her the most because she worshipped the ground I walked on & would have died for me.

Mark you are right about the Moessgaard lines they are Danish but all GSPS came across the ocean & most have become or will become Americanized to a certain extint!

[markj]

She sure is a good looker, is she very dark brown or black?

My old dogs were very slim, tall, roman nose, ticked not much white on them. Hunted like there was no tomorrow. My present dogs are very white, still hunt hard as the older ones, just a little different. not complaining, wouldnt trade em but my next dog will be german or as close as I can get to it. With the DK crowd here in America there are plenty to choose from as well as NAVHDA lines. Not knocking the FT guys, but it just isnt what I want.

Trouble here is cant hunt them wild birds around my place, I can run the dogs on em but no shooting. Some CRP right across the road but too close to the houses to shoot safely. Lots of horse people here too and they dont like to have them run thru the fence for some reason

I also had Pitsat one time, used them for hunting. If one looked like it might bite a person it was removed from the gene pool. Folks do them different now tho and I see it as ruining that breed.....

[vzkennels]

She is dark lvr & gets bleached out pretty good on the tie out with her trainer,handler,while on the trial circuit.You can find about any type dog your looking for in the GSP breed.To me that is versatility.My dogs like water & can I have been used to retrieve ducks in warmer temps.

[bondoron]

The germans hunt mostly fur with there DK"s.

That isn't a true statement really. ALL German dogs are trained to hunt both fur and feather. Some areas of Germany like our country don't have many birds. So i guess that would be the case in those areas.

[Adam]

One thing I've noticed doing some research is the the "show" dogs from the past still look similar to the "show" dogs today now the FC dogs of the past sure look like the show dogs of the past and present but the FC dogs of today dont look ANYTHING like a shorthair

Adam, I have to disagree with that statement slightly, and believe it was a little harsh statement towards a particular group of breeders that is not all deserved of that statement, while its true some or many if you will of the feild trial lines have developed into a very different looking dog..Obviously that is not a completly true statement of all FC lines or there would be no Duel Champions today of which there are many. obviously these Duels have both the same build and general look as a show dog confirmationaly or they wouldn't have won there show Championship title as well as their FC title.

Very nice looking dog you got there and it apppears she is very versatile as well.

How many Duals are there these days and how many different breeders produce duals?

[GsPJustin]

The germans hunt mostly fur with there DK"s.

That isn't a true statement really. ALL German dogs are trained to hunt both fur and feather. Some areas of Germany like our country don't have many birds. So i guess that would be the case in those areas.

Can anyone actually from Germany back up either one of these assumptions?

Oh and just an observation. I do not keep up with all the lines, which are field, which are show, which have mh's, fc's, ch's etc... However I have tended to notice that it seems, that the ones I do look at, there are more show lines that squeezed a FC out of the dog rather than a field line that squeezed a show ch out of the dog to obtain a DC. Could be multiple reasons. It is just a thought I figured I would throw out there.

[bondoron]

The germans hunt mostly fur with there DK"s.

That isn't a true statement really. ALL German dogs are trained to hunt both fur and feather. Some areas of Germany like our country don't have many birds. So i guess that would be the case in those areas.

Can anyone actually from Germany back up either one of these assumptions?

I am not from Germany nor have I ever been there. I researched DK's for a year plus before I got one. I couldn't tell you how many people I had the good fortune of talking too. I talked to some from Europe and some from the states. Also some of those from the states import and test over there. Basically what I was told for the most part was what I posted. DK's are trained for fur and feather. They also make great tracking dogs. People use them to hunt what they can find. That might be fur or feather. It is not unusual to come back with a mixed bag. So to say they hunt mostly fur is unfair. They hunt ALL game, some dogs are used more on fur than others. I did find out there are certain German lines that are better on fur and some better on feathers.

[GsPJustin]

That isn't a true statement really. ALL German dogs are trained to hunt both fur and feather. Some areas of Germany like our country don't have many birds. So i guess that would be the case in those areas.

Can anyone actually from Germany back up either one of these assumptions?

I am not from Germany nor have I ever been there. I researched DK's for a year plus before I got one. I couldn't tell you how many people I had the good fortune of talking too. I talked to some from Europe and some from the states. Also some of those from the states import and test over there. Basically what I was told for the most part was what I posted. DK's are trained for fur and feather. They also make great tracking dogs. People use them to hunt what they can find. That might be fur or feather. It is not unusual to come back with a mixed bag. So to say they hunt mostly fur is unfair. They hunt ALL game, some dogs are used more on fur than others. I did find out there are certain German lines that are better on fur and some better on feathers.

I am not saying you are incorrect. Infact, It could just be me being a smart "bleep". Sometimes I can't even tell. I just happen to think to say that all do this or they all do that is unfair no matter what it is you say they do. I would like to know, from a first hand account however what the majority do, do in Germany and other Europa countries.

[bondoron]

I am not saying you are incorrect. Infact, It could just be me being a smart "bleep". Sometimes I can't even tell. I just happen to think to say that all do this or they all do that is unfair no matter what it is you say they do. I would like to know, from a first hand account however what the majority do, do in Germany and other Europa countries.

I would also like to hear more from DK owners. Unfortunately they are ran off here pretty quickly because of those MYTHS that get thrown around here. If you look around though they are on many other forums.

[adogslife]

Germans hunt whatever needs to be hunted. If boar are running rampant, they hunt boar,if roe deer need to be tracked they track,if there is an organized hare hunt, they hunt that if there is a bird hunt going on ,they hunt that. unfortunatly, there are fewer birds in germany than there once were, but Germany is not the only country to have DKs.
What makes versatile versatile is that a DK can go from a track to water search to boar all in the same day. The dog knows what task is required and completes it without having to wind down from the previous task or be reved up for the upcoming task.
Versatility is more temperment than ability.

[bondoron]

Germans hunt whatever needs to be hunted. If boar are running rampant, they hunt boar,if roe deer need to be tracked they track,if there is an organized hare hunt, they hunt that if there is a bird hunt going on ,they hunt that. unfortunatly, there are fewer birds in germany than there once were, but Germany is not the only country to have DKs.
What makes versatile versatile is that a DK can go from a track to water search to boar all in the same day. The dog knows what task is required and completes it without having to wind down from the previous task or be reved up for the upcoming task.
Versatility is more temperment than ability.

Better said then me

[Ayres]

At this point in time, as I post what should be the 66th post in this thread, I want to thank everyone for keeping this conversation civilized. Topics like this have gone down in flames much more quickly in the past. Just an observation.

As for the dog events, I don't think there is any one event that really shows ALL of what a GSP can do. I don't think there's any one event that truly judges versatility. But I don't think there's any single event that is supposed to do that, either. There are a great number of event types, each designed to showcase just some aspect of what a gun dog is meant to do. To showcase versatility via dog events, one would need to have a dog that would excel at multiple event types.

If I recall correctly, I do think the AKC will issue a 'versatility certificate' to a dog that has completed some major degree of this entire showcase (in multiple areas/events). This may be limited to certain breeds, though, and run through the parent club. I can't remember much about it right now.

[GsPJustin]

Versatility is more temperment than ability.

I could not agree more.

As for the dog events, I don't think there is any one event that really shows ALL of what a GSP can do. I don't think there's any one event that truly judges versatility. But I don't think there's any single event that is supposed to do that, either. There are a great number of event types, each designed to showcase just some aspect of what a gun dog is meant to do. To showcase versatility via dog events, one would need to have a dog that would excel at multiple event types.

Thank you. At least now I know I am not crazy and someone agrees or understood what I was saying.

[briarpatch]

This page i believe lists all the Dual Champions GSPs ever (not sure but I am guessing it does list them all)
http://gsp-photos.us/duals.htm
I honestly don't know how many are still alive today or how many come from FC lines or how many come from CH lines but my point was not all FC lines or FC breeders are breeding dogs that are not confirmationally correct or there would be no duals today. Therefore it wouldn't be correct to say or fair to say "but the FC dogs of today dont look ANYTHING like a shorthair" obviously at least a couple FC dogs of today have passed their CH title also, so obviously at least a few breeders are breeding for long ranging FC confirmationally correct dogs..

so my point was at least some FC dogs do look like a shorthair.

if you threw the word " many" of the FC dogs of today don't look etc." in your statement your statement may have been better worded and also been a truer statement I think.

i just thought it a bit harsh to make that statement to the breeders or owners who are working for the dual dogs in their breedings.

BTW just for general knowlege that is not the type of dog I look for or currently own
If I owned a dog that ever ranged out over 60 yards he/she would probably be hunting for some other guy or gal in the next field over.. (where I live at in NJ)... But I respect the guy or gal who does breed for the duals and wants that out of their dogs enough, I thought someone should point it out that there are some people still breeding for the dual dogs whether that would be a FC dog that is confirmationally correct or a confirmationally correct dog that is a FC there are still a few out there.

[briarpatch]

bondoron wrote:
gpblitz wrote:
The germans hunt mostly fur with there DK"s.


That isn't a true statement really. ALL German dogs are trained to hunt both fur and feather. Some areas of Germany like our country don't have many birds. So i guess that would be the case in those areas.


Can anyone actually from Germany back up either one of these assumptions?



I am not from Germany nor have I ever been there. I researched DK's for a year plus before I got one. I couldn't tell you how many people I had the good fortune of talking too. I talked to some from Europe and some from the states. Also some of those from the states import and test over there. Basically what I was told for the most part was what I posted. DK's are trained for fur and feather. They also make great tracking dogs. People use them to hunt what they can find. That might be fur or feather. It is not unusual to come back with a mixed bag. So to say they hunt mostly fur is unfair. They hunt ALL game, some dogs are used more on fur than others. I did find out there are certain German lines that are better on fur and some better on feathers.

I have never been there either
but from what some have told me the Germans along with many of the European country's may be getting close to loosing their hunting rights, from pressure from animal rights groups to stop hunting altogether in many european nations..
If this ever does happen you know the DK and other hunting breeds in those countries would suffer and eventually loose their hunting skills and become a nice family pet..
What a loss that would be.
If that did ever did happen That would leave the future of the actual hunting version of the dog breed up to us in the U.S. to keep alive..........

[Birdie]

For those who had questions on German vs American standards. Who here understands the requirements for hunting in Germany, hunting structure, how they hunt, how much time it takes to even be certified for a German Hunting License, how they manage game, leased rights, and game populations as opposed to the US? There are many more MUSTS in their hunting than what we Americans have the freedom to do and forget. Also why, in Germany, game recovery has so much more emphasis and why retrieving reliability is so important or why they assign Game Wardens and/or Foresters. Begin to understand this and then you will begin to understand the differences in the dogs.

This doesn't even begin to explain the aspect of hunting with dogs, but here is one of the better articles in English that can explain some of their structure, in summation:
http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/artic ... ermany.htm


Excerpted below:

It’s true there is almost no hunting allowed on public land In Germany, but many working-class citizens are able to afford a hunting lease on private property. Though lease payments can cost up to $10,000 per year, they are often split among members of a small hunting group.

Leased hunting areas usually run about 500 acres. After being sold the lease, the hunter must submit a game management plan, which is reviewed and approved by a local official. If the hunter does a good job of managing the land and the wildlife, then it’s common for the lease to be extended.

I was surprised to learn that many landowners don’t automatically have the right to hunt on their own property. If a parcel is less than 150 acres, a landowner who wants to hunt there must compete with other hunters in bidding for that right.

Far more important than money to becoming a hunter, Ergert said, are brains and dedication. Hunters spend a year studying for their license, and half fail on their first try. Even wealthy owners of large estates must pass the difficult exam if they wish to hunt.

Hunters are expected to memorize a dizzying array of laws. They must be able to identify not only every species of animal in the forest, but also its sex and age. Their shooting skills must be precise, and they must learn how to develop wildlife management plans. Also, they are required to practice elaborate hunting traditions, such as singing the proper song to announce the death of a prized stag.

Just as intense as the education requirements are the considerable responsibilities that come with being a German hunter. Germany is almost exactly the size of Montana, but with roughly 80 million more residents. The 450,000-some hunters in Germany play the combined role of game warden, wildlife biologist, and agricultural pest controller. They also must ensure that wild game animals have sufficient food and habitat. “ The hunting right and the conservation duty are inseparable,” said Baumeister.

When something goes wrong, such as a wild boar destroying a farmer’s corn crops, the hunter who leases that land is responsible for the damages. If deer continually raid a citizen’s apple trees, the local hunter could face accusations of laziness and incompetence. The complaints might not be direct, but whispers and side glances from neighbors are no less stinging. In Germany, community pressure can be extremely powerful in ensuring a hunter fulfills his obligations, Baumeister said.


I think the AKC standards suit the general American needs/wants just fine. For those who want something different or more regulatory, it is there. For the Pete of Sake there are certainly enough venues to play in.

[adogslife]

We have to also remember that a dog needs a hunting license as well.

[Adam]

I have all the respect in the world for the people that are seriously out there trying for the DC but the sad thing is they are hugely outnumbered by the people that just show and the people that just field trial The diference here is the people that just show can till take their dogs in the field and they will probably hunt they may not run correct and be able to compete for a dual but with the right exposure those dogs will hunt just fine for 80% of the hunters out there..The dogs that are bred for field trial with no respect for the breed standard have IMO hurt the breed... IMO the germans have it right not only do they need to hunt but they need to look like shorthairs to!

http://gspca.org/Awards/HOF/dogs.html heres another link with more of a timeline then the one you posted

[briarpatch]

Adam,
Just to clarify for some that link you posted is a link to the GSPCA Hall Of Fame.
You Dont have to be a Dual CH. to be in the GSPCA's HOF
And not all DC's are in that list

see one of my old threads for more info on the GSPCA HOF http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 69&t=17222

[vzkennels]

I would like a few of you to point out a few of the dogs you don't think look like GSPS no arguments just your opinions & why they don't look like GSPS to you.

[Adam]

I know exactly what I posted it wasn't used to show how many duals are produced these days it was to show the difference in type from the dogs of the past to the dogs of today..

[briarpatch]

Birdie,
That was an intersting article but it sounds way off base when reading the whole article, speaking of the great respect and all that the hunters get from all the people, this was posted in another forum some time back by an actual german hunter

Because we need rabbits for the solms test, my husband and a friend drove to frankfurt to hunt them. there the rabbits are a real plague. but hunting in germany is difficult because so many people here hate hunters and hunting and believe us to be murderer. my husband came home with 28 rabbits and 2 pidgeons- but the police came 2 times at the hunting! People had called them and told the police, that the hunters did kill griffon birds , what is strictly forbidden bythe so called nature conservation. the police saw, that there was rightfull hunting and at least did not react anymore on the telephoncalls of the people. but, it is really a shame, that you have to hide hunting and that you are an hunter, because it may be, that people in the cities may destroy your car because you are a hunter.

[Flush]

I would like a few of you to point out a few of the dogs you don't think look like GSPS no arguments just your opinions & why they don't look like GSPS to you.

Actually I would like him to point out how these dogs don't meet the standard.

There is a big difference between not having any respect for the breed standard and not having any respect for the show world fancy.

Dog shows are to the breed standard what Field Trials are to hunting.

Your dog can hunt and be completely satisfactory in the "hunt" department but it will never win a trial.

Your dog can be within the breed standard and conformationally correct and it will never win a Show ribbon.

Both venues are looking to reward dogs that excel or exemplify something, not just meet a minimum standard or neccassirly be the most "traditional".

While this is not true in GSPs, at least not yet, I can show you many examples of breeds where the show world has veered away from the traditional look of a breed just as much, if not more so than their "field only" counterparts.

[mountaindogs]

To the original poster, I did not vote because I would choose another option such as the following.

" For the most part I feel that the AKC standard is an excellent standard, but would like to see the colors consistant with the FCI"

This is not the same as having the same standard as the FCI.

[Adam]

A versatile hunter and all-purpose gun dog, the German Shorthaired Pointer possesses keen scenting power and high intelligence. The breed is proficient with many different types of game and sport, including trailing, retrieving, and pointing pheasant, quail, grouse, waterfowl, racoons, possum, and even deer. A medium-sized breed, he has an aristocratic bearing and can be solid liver or liver and white in color.

General Appearance
The German Shorthaired Pointer is a versatile hunter, an all-purpose gun dog capable of high performance in field and water. The judgement of Shorthairs in the show ring reflects this basic characteristic. The overall picture which is created in the observer’s eye is that of an aristocratic, well balanced, symmetrical animal with conformation indicating power, endurance and agility and a look of intelligence and animation. The dog is neither unduly small nor conspicuously large. It gives the impression of medium size, but is like the proper hunter, "with a short back, but standing over plenty of ground." Symmetry and field quality are most essential. A dog in hard and lean field condition is not to be penalized; however, overly fat or poorly muscled dogs are to be penalized. A dog well balanced in all points is preferable to one with outstanding good qualities and defects. Grace of outline, clean-cut head, sloping shoulders, deep chest, powerful back, strong quarters, good bone composition, adequate muscle, well carried tail and taut coat produce a look of nobility and indicate a heritage of purposefully conducted breeding. Further evidence of this heritage is movement which is balanced, alertly coordinated and without wasted motion.

Size, Proportion, Substance
Size--height of dogs, measured at the withers, 23 to 25 inches. Height of bitches, measured at the withers, 21 to 23 inches. Deviations of one inch above or below the described heights are to be severely penalized. Weight of dogs 55 to 70 pounds. Weight of bitches 45 to 60 pounds. Proportion--measuring from the forechest to the rearmost projection of the rump and from the withers to the ground, the Shorthair is permissibly either square or slightly longer than he is tall. Substance--thin and fine bones are by no means desirable in a dog which must possess strength and be able to work over any type of terrain. The main importance is not laid so much on the size of bone, but rather on the bone being in proper proportion to the body. Bone structure too heavy or too light is a fault. Tall and leggy dogs, dogs which are ponderous because of excess substance, doggy bitches, and bitchy dogs are to be faulted.

Head
The head is clean-cut, is neither too light nor too heavy, and is in proper proportion to the body. The eyes are of medium size, full of intelligence and expression, good-humored and yet radiating energy, neither protruding nor sunken. The eye is almond shaped, not circular. The preferred color is dark brown. Light yellow eyes are not desirable and are a fault. Closely set eyes are to be faulted. China or wall eyes are to be disqualified. The ears are broad and set fairly high, lie flat and never hang away from the head. Their placement is just above eye level. The ears when laid in front without being pulled, should extend to the corner of the mouth. In the case of heavier dogs, the ears are correspondingly longer. Ears too long or fleshy are to be faulted. The skull is reasonably broad, arched on the side and slightly round on top. Unlike the Pointer, the median line between the eyes at the forehead is not too deep and the occipital bone is not very conspicuous. The foreface rises gradually from nose to forehead. The rise is more strongly pronounced in the dog than in the bitch. The jaw is powerful and the muscles well developed. The line to the forehead rises gradually and never has a definite stop as that of the Pointer, but rather a stop-effect when viewed from the side, due to the position of the eyebrows. The muzzle is sufficiently long to enable the dog to seize game properly and be able to carry it for a long time. A pointed muzzle is not desirable. The depth is in the right proportion to the length, both in the muzzle and in the skull proper. The length of the muzzle should equal the length of skull. A dish-shaped muzzle is a fault. A definite Pointer stop is a serious fault. Too many wrinkles in the forehead is a fault. The nose is brown, the larger the better, and with nostrils well opened and broad. A spotted nose is not desirable. A flesh colored nose disqualifies. The chops fall away from the somewhat projecting nose. Lips are full and deep yet are never flewy. The teeth are strong and healthy. The molars intermesh properly. The bite is a true scissors bite. A perfect level bite is not desirable and must be penalized. Extreme overshot or undershot disqualifies.

Neck, Topline, Body
The neck is of proper length to permit the jaws reaching game to be retrieved, sloping downwards on beautifully curving lines. The nape is rather muscular, becoming gradually larger toward the shoulders. Moderate throatiness is permitted. The skin is close and tight. The chest in general gives the impression of depth rather than breadth; for all that, it is in correct proportion to the other parts of the body. The chest reaches down to the elbows, the ribs forming the thorax show a rib spring and are not flat or slabsided; they are not perfectly round or barrel-shaped. The back ribs reach well down. The circumference of the thorax immediately behind the elbows is smaller than that of the thorax about a hand’s breadth behind elbows, so that the upper arm has room for movement. Tuck-up is apparent. The back is short, strong, and straight with a slight rise from the root of the tail to the withers. The loin is strong, is of moderate length, and is slightly arched. An excessively long, roached or swayed back must be penalized. The hips are broad with hip sockets wide apart and fall slightly toward the tail in a graceful curve. A steep croup is a fault. The tail is set high and firm, and must be docked, leaving approximately 40% of its length. The tail hangs down when the dog is quiet and is held horizontally when he is walking. The tail must never be curved over the back toward the head when the dog is moving. A tail curved or bent toward the head is to be severely penalized.

Forequarters
The shoulders are sloping, movable, and well covered with muscle. The shoulder blades lie flat and are well laid back nearing a 45 degree angle. The upper arm (the bones between the shoulder and elbow joint) is as long as possible, standing away somewhat from the trunk so that the straight and closely muscled legs, when viewed from the front, appear to be parallel. Elbows which stand away from the body or are too close result in toes turning inwards or outwards and must be faulted. Pasterns are strong, short and nearly vertical with a slight spring. Loose, short-bladed or straight shoulders must be faulted. Knuckling over is to be faulted. Dewclaws on the forelegs may be removed. The feet are compact, close-knit and round to spoon-shaped. The toes are sufficiently arched and heavily nailed. The pads are strong, hard and thick.

Hindquarters
Thighs are strong and well muscled. Stifles are well bent. Hock joints are well angulated and strong with straight bone structure from hock to pad. Angulation of both stifle and hock joint is such as to achieve the optimal balance of drive and traction. Hocks turn neither in nor out. Cowhocked legs are a serious fault.

Coat
The hair is short and thick and feels tough to the hand; it is somewhat longer on the underside of the tail and the back edges of the haunches. The hair is softer, thinner and shorter on the ears and the head. Any dog with long hair in the body coat is to be severely penalized.

Color
The coat may be of solid liver or a combination of liver and white such as liver and white ticked, liver patched and white ticked, or liver roan. A dog with any area of black, red, orange, lemon or tan, or a dog solid white will be disqualified.

Gait
A smooth lithe gait is essential. It is to be noted that as gait increases from the walk to a faster speed, the legs converge beneath the body. The tendency to single track is desirable. The forelegs reach well ahead as if to pull in the ground without giving the appearance of a hackney gait. The hindquarters drive the back legs smoothly and with great power.

Temperament
The Shorthair is friendly, intelligent, and willing to please. The first impression is that of a keen enthusiasm for work without indication of nervous or flightly character.

[adogslife]

It is the interpretation of that standard that allows for thin boned,predominately white,whippet looking GSPs.
The standard states the GSP is a versatile hunter. Field trialing,Hunt Tests,agility,obedience,Rally,ect, do not prove a versatile hunter. The GSP here in America has been defined by a single aspect of hunting - field work,to be more precise-the pointing ability.
If versatility is more accurately defined by temperment, then a breeder breeding GSPs that are not tested (and/or hunted )in versatile venues may not produce a mentally balanced dog. How can the breeder know? They are concentrating on a single aspect,with disregard for the whole temperment with which the breed was designed to display.
I work on fox not because I have a need for this in hunting but because the dog shows me a part of himself by doing the task. When you train for more demanding tasks you learn what your dog is made of, then you can know if the dog is worth breeding.

[Tejas]

Please amplify your point. It is as I understand it that a GSP must also exhibit tracking ability, hunting fur and retrieving of dead game of whatever nature from both land and water before it should be considered for breeding.

GSPs are my dog of choice because of their trainability and temperment along with their inherent hunting skills; however, I have no need for a dog to hunt or chase rabbits, deer or fur. In fact those are elements that I specifically train to eliminate in the hunting of the game I pursue, upland birds, and in hunt testing and field trialing. I expect with the vast majority of GSP owners in the US that is also the case. For most states the use of dogs in deer hunting is illegal and carries a penal fine and I don't particularly favor the hunting of something I am not going to eat i.e. rabbits.

I have no particular problem with the standard, it is the interpretation of the standard in both field and conformation circles that gives me concern. I have personally seen two dual champions and have been told by "show " people that "they are not very good looking dogs". I have also hunt tested alongside not only GSP, but Weim show owners who are trying to get JH titles on dogs that are virtually useless for hunting. In several cases, their hunt consisted of more or less walking at heel alongside the handler (never exceeding 20-25 feet from the handler) and maybe flash pointing a bird if the dog or handler stumbled over one. Perhaps the poster who opined that 80% of conformation dogs would hunt is correct, but that has not been my personal observation. I don't prefer either extreme. I want a dog that is conformationally correct and will perform in the field, but if I have to choose one or the other I favor the field side.

It is the interpretation of that standard that allows for thin boned,predominately white,whippet looking GSPs.
The standard states the GSP is a versatile hunter. Field trialing,Hunt Tests,agility,obedience,Rally,ect, do not prove a versatile hunter. The GSP here in America has been defined by a single aspect of hunting - field work,to be more precise-the pointing ability.
If versatility is more accurately defined by temperment, then a breeder breeding GSPs that are not tested (and/or hunted )in versatile venues may not produce a mentally balanced dog. How can the breeder know? They are concentrating on a single aspect,with disregard for the whole temperment with which the breed was designed to display.
I work on fox not because I have a need for this in hunting but because the dog shows me a part of himself by doing the task. When you train for more demanding tasks you learn what your dog is made of, then you can know if the dog is worth breeding.

[adogslife]

Tejas,
as you stated you have no need for certain aspects the breed was bred for, therefore you do not look to breeders who breed for this and you probably will not breed for this either,if you were to breed.
What my point is, if you don't need these traits then buy a different breed, a specialist breed, or you could expose the dog to these aspects of versatility because that is what the breed is and this is what is needed to continualy prove the versatility of the breed. I have no issues with fur when I bird hunt.A dog should be able to be called off once, if at all needed and continue the bird hunt,if there is a continual issue in the field either the trainer or the dog needs a closer look at who is to blame.
Don't breed for it and you loose it. Not just the trait but the balance that the trait contributed.
Field trialers seldom care about conformation, most feel that if a dog can go all day, well, he must be bred correctly. Not so. Breeding for one aspect only is one demensial.I would like to think an AKC conformation title is worthy of the individual dog but from what I read and hear this is not so and I have not been convinced that this title means much.
The end all for me is to watch a dog perform and come to my own conclusions.

[Adam]

A dog with any area of black, red, orange, lemon or tan, or a dog solid white will be disqualified

Our National Club sets the standard, But allows these dogs to be registered!!! :roll:

I believe its AKC that lets them be registered..

this topic is getting way off course we dont need the field trial vs german dog debate again please!!! All I was saying was the its not the show people for once in a sporting breed changing the way the dogs look to win in shows.

[adogslife]

One additional note:
the trainabilty and cooperation you love so much was bred in when the breed was originated. In order to do the many tasks asked of the breed the hunters needed a dog that is cooperative and trainable ,the dog is capable of doing so much that the American hunter fell in love and saw ways to manipulate the breed to the American way of hunting. This says a lot for the breed but little for the hunters who neglected what the breed is.
Deer hunting with a dog is illegal, I do not consider walking my dog in the woods with a leash around their neck and coming across blood and eventually a dead deer as hunting deer,on private land one has many more options. No one hunts deer with their DK, they track wounded game. In some states you can obtain a licnese for this.

[adogslife]

Adam,
but the show people are changing the look. Show dogs have longer,more delicate necks then are neccessary. these dogs could not possibly carry,run,jump with heavy game for long distances.Then there is the angualtion issue, show dogs, from what I have seen, are more angulated then needs to be ebcause it looks pretty.
The problem originates with the standard being an interpretation. This is all allowed for,according to the standard.


This is to just name a few issues I have noticed.

[GsPJustin]

I have seen some show dogs when way to much overangulation. Ones that looked more like a irish setter than a shorthair. Not to mention other problems. Like short upper arms, and a less layed back shoulder.

On the other hand I have seen field dogs that are way in the opposite direction. Almost no agulations. Sometimes even less in the rear than in the front. Which is something weird for me to watch. And then you see the dogs that are supposedly from field lines, but they are light brown enough to pass for a brittany, there butts are round looking, their tail set is way to low and they actually wiggle more than they run.

Neither one side is better, both have there ups and downs. That's not the point. You shouldn't be able to tell what kind of lines the dog is from. He should impress you in the field, in the ring, and at home.

[ezzy333]

You shouldn't be able to tell what kind of lines the dog is from. He should impress you in the field, in the ring, and at home.

Oh so true!

In reading your discussion, what is the purpose of the rear angulation and the sloping or laid back shoulder? Also where are you drawing the line between OK and too much?

Ezzy

[ACooper]

The germans hunt mostly fur with there DK"s.

That isn't a true statement really. ALL German dogs are trained to hunt both fur and feather. Some areas of Germany like our country don't have many birds. So i guess that would be the case in those areas.

Can anyone actually from Germany back up either one of these assumptions?

Oh and just an observation. I do not keep up with all the lines, which are field, which are show, which have mh's, fc's, ch's etc... However I have tended to notice that it seems, that the ones I do look at, there are more show lines that squeezed a FC out of the dog rather than a field line that squeezed a show ch out of the dog to obtain a DC. Could be multiple reasons. It is just a thought I figured I would throw out there.

Here is an example of a primarily FC/NFC breeding "squeezing" out a DC.

http://www.rsaledogs.com/hank.html

[ACooper]

Deer hunting with a dog is illegal, I do not consider walking my dog in the woods with a leash around their neck and coming across blood and eventually a dead deer as hunting deer,on private land one has many more options. No one hunts deer with their DK, they track wounded game. In some states you can obtain a licnese for this.

I am going to assume that you are only talking about in the US correct?

[Flush]

When I read these standards I see a lot of room for interpretation and I see a lot of what is considered "ideal".
I'm pretty sure no dogs are perfect in every single way, so when does a dog become "out of standard" even though it meets all the hard standards (color, height, weight, etc..) but falls short of the "ideal". I would love to see some more actual and firm examples of all these trial dogs being actually out of standard, not just someone's interpretation of lacking the ideal.

How would you even determine some of this stuff?

For example what is in and out of standard of: "It gives the impression of medium size".
I think I saw a female field GSP once that gave me the impression of small/medium size rather than straight up "medium size", that dog HAD to be out of standard I guess?

Here is another: "Bone structure too heavy or too light is a fault." Hmmm... I think I saw a show dog that had bone structure "too heavy" once, I guess he was out of standard too?

Yet another gem:
"The eyes are of medium size, full of intelligence and expression, good-humored and yet radiating energy, neither protruding nor sunken"
I just can't tell you how many times I have seen a GSP and thought, "boy that would be a nice dog if only it weren't for the lack of good-humored eyes"

You champions of strict sticking to "The Standard" crack me up.

[Adam]

as much as I love your idea I think it'd be pretty rude to take pictures of dogs off the internet to a public forum and tear them apart...

[Ridge-Point]

Many photos of Field Trial dogs are taken when the dog is on point. High and Tight wins trials. Those dogs point with such intensity that many times the legs are extended making it difficult to see the dogs angulation when they are on point.

If you look at winning All Age dogs, they almost always have good front angulation. Front angulation allows the dog to reach forward, I think of it as preload. If a dogs angulation is too straight in the front his legs are already extended, making it difficult to reach forward much farther.

I found a pic showing the motion of the front leg, it's on a Rottwieler page, I'm sure there are other good photos on the web showing the same thing. http://darkstarrrotts.com/upper_arm.htm

I have noticed less rear angulation in some Field Trial dogs, which to me makes some sense. In a field trial you are looking for a dog that is very fast and explosive. There is more power in a almost straight rear leg (I think of squats, you can lift more if you dont go down all the way), but that power is going to cost some ground coverage because the leg is not reaching as far foward or pushing as far backward. You might get away with that advantage in an hour stake, but I think it would cost you in a 3 hour.

The problem with comparing Show conformation and Field Trial conformation is they are judged at completely differant speeds. At dogs shows the dogs are trotted around in circles. At Field Trials the dogs are running as fast as they possibly can.

Here is a pic of a NFC All-Age champ, he looks built right to me.
http://www.gsp-photos.us/field/dunfur_ben.htm

[adogslife]

It's called type. There is not supposed to be a show type,a field trail type,a versatile type. There can only be one type per breed.
This is soooo not true of the GSP. But, when they added "pointer" to the name and field trialing ran like wildfire in this country the breed transformed into several types.

Acooper:
I am taling about the US.

Do Germans hunt deer with their DKs?

[Flush]

as much as I love your idea I think it'd be pretty rude to take pictures of dogs off the internet to a public forum and tear them apart...

I hear you and that is probably wise. Just give us some general examples without pointing to a specific dog. Is it angulation, size, color pattern etc...

I can see they aren't ideal in relation to the standard but I'm trying to understand what the gross violations are that get them to the point of being condsidered "out of standard" as opposed to having "faults" which of course would prevent them from doing well in the ring.

[GsPJustin]

You shouldn't be able to tell what kind of lines the dog is from. He should impress you in the field, in the ring, and at home.

Oh so true!

In reading your discussion, what is the purpose of the rear angulation and the sloping or laid back shoulder? Also where are you drawing the line between OK and too much?

Ezzy

Ezzy,

Rear angulation is the drive train of the dog and require strength and balanced angulation to propel the dog forward. When you have to much or to little, more in the front than the rear or visa versa. You begin to create problems that will ultimately lead to injury. Sooner rather than later if your dog works for a living. With the rear pastern set perpendicular, you should be able to draw a plumb line from the rear most point of the hip, to the front most point of the toe. If the dogs rear foot is closer then it is under angulated and if the toe is past the line he is over angulated. Some say that dogs that are under angulated are more prone to injury. However I happen to believe that neither side of the line is good if its extreme.

The laid back shoulder is what allows the dog to reach. GSPs should have A LOT of reach and drive. That is what makes them a beauty to watch. Being balanced in the front and rear also is a big concern because of the obvious fact that the smoothness of gait will be severely impaired if the rear is pushing faster than the front is pulling. Sort of like how a 4 wheel drive truck needs the same gear ratio in the front and rear differentials. The only way to tell if a dog has laid back shoulder, not enough, or to much for me is to feel. To specify angles is useless unless exact points of reference are not only agreed upon but also easily determined. Since the bones forming these angles are curved, such landmarks as the highest point of the scapula, the foremost point of the upper arm where it meets the shoulder, and the topmost point of the elbow should be used as well as a detailed illustration decided upon. Without X-ray vision, we need to rely on our fingers.

Acooper,

I have no idea why you felt to the need to show me that you have a field dog with a show title and how cool it is. I was not trying to look down on field lines, just merely stating and observation that I tend to see more show lines with dcs, that field lines. Most of them dogs that I believe didn't deserve either one. Unfortunately politics sometimes plays a bigger role in our doggy games than the actual dogs. I am sure that someone could sit here and link ever field line pedigree than had a DC in it, however my point wasn't that field lines don't have dcs. It just seems that a show line would get a dc on a dog just for the title. Where the field lines would rather just have a dog thats good at what they want.

[vzkennels]

I still have not seen any of you post what dogs do not look like GSPS & why you think they don't look like GSPS.I use to raise & show Dobes I never saw to many if any that didn't look like Dobes but I did see some that were too big,too small,etc.There are different types within the breed from different lines but they still looked like Dobes.Yeah there are a few GSPS that might not fit the standard but in my eyes they still look like GSPS.But it has been said through this thread that the FT GSPS of today don't look like GSPS & I'm still waiting to see what GSPS they are & what makes them look different then GSPS to you.I can stand around a show ring & pick every dog in it apart because there is NO SO ANIMAL as perfect the best dog in the ring has faults & the dog that is the best to me may be a totally different dog to you.Interpetations of the standard differs & if you show enough you learn to avoid the judges that don't like the same type dog you do.When you show you pay for some one elses opinnion of your dog,the ones that put up your dog are smart but the ones that don't use your dog don't know a good dog when they see it.I have been around TOO MANY dog shows & heard all the talk & comments not to know what goes on.I still want to see the GSPS that don't look like GSPS.

[GsPJustin]

Ted,

I believe the reason no one has done what you proposed yet. Is because there is a level of decency and respect being upheld in this discussion. To show a picture or name of a dog and pick it apart on internet forum would be very disrespectful to many parties and a loss of character for man kind.

No dog is perfect and I am glad you and other see that. However that should be no excuse to allow the breeding of a dog with major faults. Or to change a breed for traits that are major faults because of preference and wants of a human being.

JMO

Justin Anzelc

[vzkennels]

Justin I understand that but the dog or owner don't have to be named or if you want I will post a couple pics of my dogs & they can comment on them as I don't care what people say about my dogs because I like what I have & breed & if they don't like them they don't buy them & tell others not to buy them.I have been doing this for over 35 yrs so their comments aren't going to bother me in the least.You know even if a dog has some DQS they still look like GSPS just not GSPS I want to breed or breed to.

[vzkennels]

Here are 2 of my dogs which one looks like a GSP & which one don't & why or which one looks the most like a GSP in your mind & why?

[adogslife]

So, what you are saying is that as long as a GSP doesn't look like a spaniel or other dog of your choice, then it is a GSP.
Well, genetically probably yes. Breeding is supposed to be more then that basic premise.
Breeders will produce dogs that will win in the venues they play in.
So, if it looks like a GSP,why not breed to it?

[ACooper]

Justin easy buddy I posted the link because I think Hank is a great looking dog that can do it in the field and and in the show ring, and I only wish he was mine. Since there was a mention of fc dogs producing a dc dog I thought people might like to see one, I guess you didnt. I agree with you that you should not be able to look at a dog tell what line/type they are. I also believe that MOST serious field breeders do more for the breed than MOST serious show breeders. I am going to keep my head down now.