Do You Believe The AKC GSP Standards Are Flawed??

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:29 pm

Your set up doesn't count. What you are really asking is what flaws do the dogs have. What needs to be examined is type. Do these dogs exemplify type as set by the GSP standard. You posted a liver dog and a white dog. White has been in the breed from the begining,doesn't make it less "type".

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:31 pm

I also believe that MOST serious field breeders do more for the breed than MOST serious show breeders. I am going to keep my head down now.

That would all depend on what you think is better for the breed.

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:36 pm

Ted why are you posting pictures of cocker spaniels and komondors?

In all seriousness though I have to agree with adogslife on this one. There probably isn't much arguement in the fact that your dog doesn't look like a GSP. I think the problem lies in the fact that what a GSP can look like is so wide and even still some dogs look like they have traits from other breeds. Or that they have been bred into to make them more like other breeds.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:41 pm

That's why I'm asking who ever said the FT GSPS don't look like GSPS to show me & tell me why if my dogs don't look like GSPS then say so because I think most of the FT GSPS or show GSPS look alot like mine.If that solid LVR dog above had been shown I would bet money he would CH.The white female no mostly only because of her color.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:44 pm

That's right and to me field performance is more important. Just my opinion and only valuable to me.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:47 pm

You know what Justin I'm not argueing with any of you but the reason I used the Dobe breed when talking about GSPS is because to some one that has showed & bred them when they all go into the ring most inexperienced people standing around the ring say I don't know how the judge tells them apart but to a breeder or some one that has knowledge of the breed they are as different as night & day but they still look like DOBES.So I'm just asking about the GSPS that don't look like GSPS.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:50 pm

adogslife wrote: Acooper:
I am taling about the US.

Do Germans hunt deer with their DKs?

I have been told that many in Germany are, they are used as part of a deer "drive", and in GB they are used to "stalk" deer.

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:57 pm

I know your not arguing with me, in fact I think we see pretty eye to eye for the most part. (I don't understand the komondor though

) I know where your coming from. I have been in the show ring myself and I know what you mean by night and day. To the bystander, two similar colored dogs could be litter mates, but to someone who knows what they are looking at they could easily tell there not even from the same lines, much less dogs.

I said nothing about a dog that doesn't look like a gsp, so I know that most of your comments aren't even directed towards me. I just tried to give you a possibility as to why someone might think a dog doesn't look like a gsp. Al thought I have seen a good number of dogs. (non that I have pictures or names for) that had a lot of traits not natural to a GSP, but I could recognize them as a gsp.

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:37 pm

It's called type. There is not supposed to be a show type,a field trail type,a versatile type. There can only be one type per breed.
This is soooo not true of the GSP. But, when they added "pointer" to the name and field trialing ran like wildfire in this country the breed transformed into several types.

This is probably correct however I believe this is the case with most Americanized Hunting breeds you end up with a field type or 2 or 3 and a show type and a pet type, is this how most hunting breeds were intended probably not .. But America is so large and diverse and everyone has a different idea of the perfect dog..when you get a bunch that have simular ideas they tend to actually change the breed to suite thier niche..
of course hopefully there will always be the bunch that liked the original version to keep that alive as well.and sometimes there are 2 -3 bunches that actually change the breed to do many different niches eventually over time their dogs even start to look slightly different than the original because it better suites the needs of the bunch in that particular niche.
It this the way it should be probably not ..

for those that dont know and are asking what is a gsp that doesnt look like a gsp ..

It is a GSP that more resembles a English Pointer more than a GSP ..
with the tail cut off theres one example..

I wont post pic's ,if you aint seen one you aint seen many GSPs

I think my .02 cents must be up around a buck on this thread by now

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:41 pm

the pointer like heads,lack of chest, roachy whippet like toplines, lack of bone etc

Ted your pictures are small but from what i can tell they look like shorthairs I never said ALLL have lost the type but the majority have..

Justin where did you read that reach comes from the shoulder lay back? I was always under the impression it came from proper angle and length of the upper arm

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:58 pm

The reason I posted those 2 pics is because while hunting I have been told the female is more EP then GSP when in fact they are full brother & sister from 2 different litters.Major the solid LVR from the first litter Wendy WHT & LVR from the 2nd litter.White dogs can win under a few judges but not most. FT dogs white,ticked, or what ever a lot of trialers will not own or breed to a dog with a a blaze or doesn't have a solid lvr head.Almost every dog you see in the show ring has a blaze on it's face & head.I believe there more important things to breed for then solid lvr heads.In DOBES there are 4 different colors & like GSPS there are some judges that won't put up anything but blacks,more will do black or reds but not fawns or blues.There are a few that will put up fawns or blues so I know the game & if you show for long enough you pick your judges.BEEN THERE DONE THAT!

Oh kinda funny you mentioned bone because you will definately see bigger boned,bigger more coarse dogs around the show ring then in field trials.I could go into reasons for that but won't.There will always be these kind of disagreements when you start talking about shows & trials.The simple fact is one is a beauty contest & the other is performance.You don't see Miss America running marathons!

There are dogs that can do both but even they will usually excell at one over the other & few if any make it to the top in both.But they are all GSPS & I love the breed.

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:28 pm

But they are all GSPS & I love the breed.

See I told you we see eye to eye.

Adam,

No part of a dog works alone.

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:51 pm

vzkennels wrote:I still have not seen any of you post what dogs do not look like GSPS & why you think they don't look like GSPS.I use to raise & show Dobes I never saw to many if any that didn't look like Dobes but I did see some that were too big,too small,etc.There are different types within the breed from different lines but they still looked like Dobes.Yeah there are a few GSPS that might not fit the standard but in my eyes they still look like GSPS.But it has been said through this thread that the FT GSPS of today don't look like GSPS & I'm still waiting to see what GSPS they are & what makes them look different then GSPS to you.I can stand around a show ring & pick every dog in it apart because there is NO SO ANIMAL as perfect the best dog in the ring has faults & the dog that is the best to me may be a totally different dog to you.Interpetations of the standard differs & if you show enough you learn to avoid the judges that don't like the same type dog you do.When you show you pay for some one elses opinnion of your dog,the ones that put up your dog are smart but the ones that don't use your dog don't know a good dog when they see it.I have been around TOO MANY dog shows & heard all the talk & comments not to know what goes on.I still want to see the GSPS that don't look like GSPS.

Most GSP's will still look like GSP's even with bad conformation. You don't see them with an extra leg growing out of their head or something obvious to make them not look like one.

Although some people think my solid liver is a lab. You get strange looks when they are told what it is. Also the AKC standard is more than just conformation. I think a lot of people are touching on the other things.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:11 pm

Ron I know but I wasn't the one that said the FT GSPS of today don't look like GSPS.

That was my point. Just a little after thought ( I was the one that was more or less called an IDIOT early on in this thread )

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:20 pm

vzkennels wrote:Ron I know but I wasn't the one that said the FT GSPS of today don't look like GSPS. That was my point. Just a little after thought ( I was the one that was more or less called an IDIOT early on in this thread )

I didn't/don't think you are an idiot. I 100% disagree with you saying DK's are some sort of vicious breed though.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:26 pm

I don't think I said they were vicioos but the Germans not the Americans want their dogs to have a certain amount of sharpness not just the DKS/GSPS but Rotts,Dobes,German Sheps etc. In this country that won't work that's what I meant whether it came out that way or not.

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:39 pm

vzkennels wrote:The German dogs are usually a little bigger,heavier boned,slower, & their temperament is much more sharp & they think the American bred dogs are babies when it comes to sharpness.The animal rights people & all the do gooders in this country would be calling for bans on alot of these breeds just like the pit bulls.

Ted the issue I had was you made it kind of sound like DK's were bred to be watch/attack type dogs. Like the Dobes, Shepards, Pit Bulls etc.... That just isn't true. DK's like that would never make it through DKV testing which means they wouldn't ever be bred. If you are referring to the sharpness test they do in the DKV system that is used on game. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant?

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:48 pm

vzkennels wrote:Ron I know but I wasn't the one that said the FT GSPS of today don't look like GSPS. That was my point. Just a little after thought ( I was the one that was more or less called an IDIOT early on in this thread )

I doubt anyone is going to put a dog up and say this doesn't look like a gsp etc, too many toes to step on. BUT do you not agree that some of the field trial lines look different now than they have in the past?

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:53 pm

Ron I owned Dobes & thay are the biggest babies you will find.My first old german Type GSP would whip both of them at the same time even if she was half their size.She use to get loose & run around the neighbor hood & collect scraps bring them home & bury them in the back yard if any other dogs got near it she would jump right on top of them.I had 2 dobes in the house they learned to stick their head out the door & make sure she wasn't loose before going out.If you have any kind of dog now that will kill every cat that walks in front of it you will soon find your self in court & your dog put to sleep.When I use to show dobes the old German judges would turn them toward each other in the ring because they wanted to see some agression,Probably not that way anymore but I believe some of the terrier judges still do it,but maybe not Americans have let PETA & org like them to control us.JMO

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:01 pm

ACooper wrote:
vzkennels wrote:Ron I know but I wasn't the one that said the FT GSPS of today don't look like GSPS. That was my point. Just a little after thought ( I was the one that was more or less called an IDIOT early on in this thread )
I doubt anyone is going to put a dog up and say this doesn't look like a gsp etc, too many toes to step on. BUT do you not agree that some of the field trial lines look different now than they have in the past?

thats all i was trying to say from the get go!

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:03 pm

If you are asking me do they have more style on the whole,maybe a little more elegant & athletic more white, faster I would say yes but do you think that is wrong? I still think most of them fit the standard & if you go back & really study some of the old dogs you will still see a remarkable resemblence.I do know of a guy now banned from here that told me he hunted over some of the older dogs in my dogs ped & lines,he could see them in my dogs even though they are now so far back most would consider then insignifcant.

Flush · Post by **Flush** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:30 pm

I think part of the problem of this discussion is there are two different but related issues going on here.
On the surface we are talking about breeding practices that are taking the breed away from the breed standard or away from the original German lines in hunting style, look, etc...

The other issue somewhat below the surface that we aren't really discussing openly is the crossing in of EP. I don't know what is and isn't true on the EP stuff, but there are certainly are a LOT of rumors.

Personally I think on the first issue, relatively loose breed standards and using field trials for breed selection are just fine. On the EP issue I am very much against it. Actually I don't even care if folks want to breed EPs and GSPs, the problem is the lying about it. Crossing two breeds is very different than "improving" or "evolving" a breed, if you register a EP/GSP cross as pure, with GSPs as the stud and sire, that is just plain lying and I have no tolerance for it.

Unfortunately because the EP stuff is all hidden you can't seperate the two issues completely. Basically what I am saying is IF all the field trial dogs got to where they are today on the up and up, I think thats great. If they got there by lies and deceit, I think it is horrible. To me the ends don't always justify the means.

-Flush

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:38 pm

Let me just throw this out there & then I'm done with this you can all draw your own conclusions as like I have stated I like the GSP breed of today in this country .How many of you or have any of you heard the RUMOR that Bob Whele crossed GSPS into his pointers to get the biddability that they are known for.RUMOR or TRUTH ????

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:44 pm

I am not saying different is all bad, but different for sure. Two dogs that would disprove my point though are FC Tell and checkmates Dandy Dude, many dogs winning in trials today share a similar look. FC dogs of the past that in my opinion look the gsp "type" are dogs like Beirs Evolution, Lancer D, Chicoree Hickory Doc, and Uodibar's Boss Man. Many dogs I look at now days I cant always put a finger on why I think they look "different" but some just do to me. Again just my opinion.

Birdie · Post by **Birdie** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:11 pm

Briarpatch, it is not so off base. It is written by one's observations, by an American's observations, but do not belittle the fact the strict requirements and regulations they have for hunting in Germany and that it is base for the differences of a GSP or DK. Some areas hold great respect for traditions and hunting whilst others do not and while some scream bloody murder just for plucking duck feathers.. That is NO different than in areas of the US. Aside, Police cannot ignore complaints and must respond to calls regardless of what nature.

Also, just as Americans have differing hunting experiences, so do Germans. They do seem to have quite a few problems with PETA. We can ask Madonna if she would provide further input if you wish, however at this point, maybe this part of the discussion needs different thread!

Like the Dobes, Shepards, Pit Bulls etc.... That just isn't true. DK's like that would never make it through DKV testing which means they wouldn't ever be bred.

I would have to disagree with this statement at face value. These breeds yes, were bred more for protection, but it does NOT mean that aggression is what makes these dogs tick. Already been stated, but to reiterate, let's not confuse sharpness with aggression, or drive. There have been DK's that have proven their worth in Schutzhund (although few and far between) as because why would one use a DK when you could pick a specialist? Same as teaching a Dobe or Shepherd to hunt birds...

As to the standard, I have seen a few ticked EP's that if their tails were docked I would have mistaken for a field trial GSP.

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:21 am

Birdie,

it is not so off base. It is written by one's observations, by an American's observations, but do not belittle the fact the strict requirements and regulations they have for hunting in Germany

When I read an article that appears so obviously obscured in one part by the author, it definately make's me personally question the validity of the authors claims in the rest of the article.
That was my point when I said it is obviously off base I meant obviously the author had colored his rendition of the article to suite his ideas or needs in one part thereby taking away from the validity of the rest of the article (at least for me).
and who knows maybe he didn't color the one part as I think he did and perhaps in the area of germany he was at all the hunters did have this great respect given to them by the locals.
But from what I have been told and has been written elsewhere it appeared to me the author colored the article to make things sound a little more rosier than they actually are at least in some parts and if he did it in one part then who is to say he didn't do it in others..

I certainly was not trying to belittle the fact the germans have strick regulations and requirements
I have the utmost respect for the Germans and what they have done with their dogs so much so I have considered importing one myself on several occasions and written back and forth to several german breeders in the past ..and my bitch is out of direct german imports to canada..
I am just not one to read an authors rendition of something and accept it as fact..especialy when at least one part of the article appears offbase if you will in my eyes..

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:00 pm

vzkennels wrote:How many of you or have any of you heard the RUMOR that Bob Whele crossed GSPS into his pointers to get the biddability that they are known for.RUMOR or TRUTH ????

Haven't heard it about Wehle's dogs, but have heard about Setter being blended into the early Pointers to get "sense" around game. Hence the rare Tri-colored Pointer.

honeyrun · Post by **honeyrun** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:57 pm

Coming late to this discussion.

IMO, I believe that the Standard, as written, for the GSP is fine. Each year it seems that breeders are tending to stretch the limits of the standards in order to suit thier needs and wants, both on the bench and in the field.

As was mentioned, there are many, many different breeds that would accomodate different types of hunting. No need to change a good thing, just find another breed and get another kind of good thing.

As to the germans, THEY changed their size standard, not the USA. The germans increased their size standards, while the USA stayed the same.

Pictured below:
CH Baretta vom Otterbach, MH, CGC, NAI, UTII, D1, AZP1, HN, SG
.........direct German Import. She has produced wonderfully and is now retired to my couch and as my #1 grouse hunting companion. And yes, she played the American games and did extremely well.

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:11 pm

vzkennels wrote:Ron I owned Dobes & thay are the biggest babies you will find.My first old german Type GSP would whip both of them at the same time even if she was half their size.She use to get loose & run around the neighbor hood & collect scraps bring them home & bury them in the back yard if any other dogs got near it she would jump right on top of them.I had 2 dobes in the house they learned to stick their head out the door & make sure she wasn't loose before going out.If you have any kind of dog now that will kill every cat that walks in front of it you will soon find your self in court & your dog put to sleep.When I use to show dobes the old German judges would turn them toward each other in the ring because they wanted to see some agression,Probably not that way anymore but I believe some of the terrier judges still do it,but maybe not Americans have let PETA & org like them to control us.JMO

You had an aggressive German bred gsp so that means they all are? German bred dogs are all cat killers? That is news to me. Let me guess no American bred dogs kill cats? If gsp's aren't raised around cats, there is definitely a good chance a cat will get mauled by them. They are prey driven, that is their world. It is unfortunate that this aggression rumor still surrounds the DK's. I would love nothing more than to have everyone visit some kennels and owners that have these dogs and see what they are really all about.

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:38 pm

Man, we all sure know a lot about how German dogs in Germany are, act, hunt, train and everything else for not ever having been to Germany.

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:43 pm

GsPJustin wrote:Man, we all sure know a lot about how German dogs in Germany are, act, hunt, train and everything else for not ever having been to Germany.

My dog and Ted's dog were not in Germany. :roll: All DK's aren't in Germany, they are in many different countries.

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:52 pm

Had nothing to do with your dogs or Ted's dogs or dogs from other countries. Just an obvious observation from the numerous statements that ALL German dogs are this, ALL German dogs do that. Yet not one person has a dog that was trained in Germany, by a German, Is German, or Lived in Germany.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:56 pm

All DKs originated in Germany. The temperment you see in American born DKs are the same as German born DKs.
If you don't have a sharp DK you have a dog that will run when it smells a boar. I know my dogs won't pee themselves when they comes across a a coyote,wolf or bear. Does this mean they will eat little children?
Weims were bred to be man sharp and they still have the test in Germany.
It is a shame that some people do not understand the difference of prey sharpness and man sharpness. Different areas of the brain.
Just like dominance does not equal aggressive.Just like sensitive does not equal soft.
I attribute the aggressive DK rumor to early American breeders who wanted to have a reason to "change" the breed and mold it into a breed that could beat EPs in field trials.

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:34 pm

I beleive we have gotten a bit off topic
I have both an american GSP and a import parented dog..
I can tell you I love them both
they both have their own qualities and weaknesses or faults if you will
as I am sure most dogs have..
although most breeders dont tell you of the weaknesses or faults

I am sure not all DK's have the same strenghs and weaknesses or faults
As I am also sure all American GSPs do not have the same strenghs and weaknesses or faults

The theme of the thread is what does the majorities think of whos standards are better represenative of what a GSP or DK should look like or if they both could use some changes.

the DK or FCI standard descibes a slightly larger dog
dogs 24.4 to 26 inches at withers
Bitches 24.4 to 24.8 inches at withers (FCI makes no reference to weight I guess they figure if the proportions of the dog are correct the weight will follow suite)
Vs.
American dogs 23 to 25 inches at withers
American bitches 21-23 inches at withers
american states 1 inch above or below to be severly penalized (so a 26 inch dog that could compete and be in the standard in the motherland of the breed wouldn't be confirmationally correct here)
dogs weight 55-70 lbs
bitches 45-60

Tails
FCI half or 50 %
American 40%

Acceptable colors
American ..The coat may be of solid liver or a combination of liver and white such as liver and white ticked, liver patched and white ticked, or liver roan. A dog with any area of black, red, orange, lemon or tan, or a dog solid white will be disqualified

FCI COLOUR:
· Solid brown, without markings.
· Brown with small white or flecked markings at chest and legs.
· Dark brown roan, with brown head, brown patches or specks. The basic colour of such a dog is not brown mixed with white or white with brown, but the coat shows such an even intensive mixture of brown and white which results in that kind of inconspicuous exterior of the dog ever so valuable for the practical hunt. At the inner sides of the hindlegs as well as the tip of the tail the colour is often lighter.
· Light brown roan with brown head, brown patches, specks or without patches. In this colouring the brown hairs are fewer, the white hairs are predominant.
· White with brown head markings, brown patches or specks.
· Black colour in the same nuances as the brown, respectively the brown roan colours.
· Yellow tan markings are permissible.
· Blaze, fleck and speckles flews are permissible

These above are just a couple of the bigger differences I seen in two standards
or perhaps the majority think both are not the best and the dogs should be smaller or something?
I have seen alot of tiny 30lb GSPs

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:59 pm

I never said I had a DK but her sire was from Germany & to me they are all GSPS but that's another thread that the DK owners would aregue I'm bowing out of this.I have my opinions you have yours & niether is going to change we just disagree.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:30 pm

I might get a DK if any of them had style like Ted's avatar dog!

Ridge-Point · Post by **Ridge-Point** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:51 pm

ACooper wrote:I might get a DK if any of them had style like Ted's avatar dog!

Not as good as Ted's dog, but getting there. You can find style if you look for it. This dog isn't a true DK but she is out of two DK's. She is a little over 1 in that picture pointing blue grouse in utah.

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:23 pm

ACooper wrote:I might get a DK if any of them had style like Ted's avatar dog!

What that cocker??!?!?!

Birdie · Post by **Birdie** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:07 pm

Briarpatch, I understand. And, thank you for posting the size standards. I have never really see any strict adherence to the size standard in either the GSP or DK as is. Unless there is a gross obvious discrepancy to the standard, I never see anyone out with a wicket. There are a couple of instances where I would have liked to see a wicket out...but there are probably more important issues to prioritize and evaluate.

I don't typically care to see those tiny GSPs either, and have seen some small DK's as well.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:16 am

Ridge-Point wrote:
ACooper wrote:I might get a DK if any of them had style like Ted's avatar dog!

Not as good as Ted's dog, but getting there. You can find style if you look for it. This dog isn't a true DK but she is out of two DK's. She is a little over 1 in that picture pointing blue grouse in utah.

Looks like there might be a little Miller blood in there! All kidding aside that is one nice looking dog!

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:19 am

Other than allowing Black, I will stick with the AKC standards for AKC dogs. I do not want to see yellow and tan permissible, and I do not want to see 24.4 inches the low end of size for a female. 22 inches is a nice sized female and while I do not feel size is the epitomy of a dog I would not like to see the average female be 24 and over. Personally. (Nore would I like to see the 30 lb 19 inch either) I do not mind an occasional dogs that is slightly larger or smaller than the standard if they are excpetional in other ways. Which is why it is not a disqualification in the breed. I would rather see more consistancy of head type, and better correct toplines that do not arch so roachy, tails that do not curve over the back like a terrier or docked basenji, more consistant natural point instinct, stronger retrieving drive in some lines (without FF), and a more consistant tougher cold water dog in some lines. Among other things.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:13 pm

What I take away from reading this thread:

1. Some GSPs that excel in the ring may not function well in the field. Some GSPs that functionally excel in the field may not be judged excellent in the ring.
2. The breed was developed in Germany, an area about the size of North & South Dakota combined and similar also to Minnesota and Wisconsin combined. Supposition: GSPs bred and used only exclusively in either the ND/SD or MN/WI areas would likely be narrower in conformation and functionality than GSPs bred and used all across the entire U.S.
3. Many posters claim the americanized GSP, taken as a whole, do not look and function exactly like the DKs in Germany today.
4. There are no perfect dogs
5. Those of us that wanted and now own GSPs were generally able to find what we wanted in the available pool of GSPs and at this point the breed has not been "destroyed" by either the Ring or the FT.
6. The GSPCA standards are quantitative. Agreed upon subjective qualitative standards are not available but many of us emphasize the qualitative aspects when selecting pups from known parents.
7. The experience of a few of us that owned early imports was that the "sharpness" of the dogs we had then was not limited only to "prey sharpness".
8. There are some who would say a DK from Germany today most resembles the original american GSPs to which the standards refer and if a DK from Germany today won't do what you want your GSP to do, then you should select another breed of dog more suited to your purposes. Of course that assumes the other breed you select is also exactly like it's forebearers were when originally imported to this country as well!
9. I observed most posters seem to already have their opinions and I did not note anyone substantially changing their opinion based upon new information provided in this thread.
10. A number of posters on this site can carry on a long, thorough discussion without flaming out.

While I personally learned very little from this thread, it clearly may have been informational for newbies.

Post by **Ayres** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:33 pm

BigShooter wrote:6. The GSPCA standards are quantitative. Agreed upon subjective qualitative standards are not available but many of us emphasize the qualitative aspects when selecting pups from known parents.

I think either you mistyped, or I disagree that the GSPCA standard is purely quantitative. I believe that there is much in the GSPCA standard that can not be actively measured - hence the standard expresses many terms in degrees of quality, and not in definable measurement. That's where a lot of the subjectiveness comes into play. What one confirmation judge likes, another may not; and this is why you can see two different dogs winning on different days of the same dog show.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:44 pm

Steven,

I don't disagree. The somewhat incomplete reference was referring to a previous post about quantitative aspects such as size, height, weight, etc. being in the standard vs. a number of qualitative aspects like biddability, desire, heart, etc. that are not part of the standard for obvious reasons. Never-the-less when we are looking for a GSP we evaluate many qualitative tendencies we see evidenced in the parents that we hope will be passed to their pups. Much discussion was given to the looseness of standards allowing for some variation and hence subjective judgements by different observers.

briarpatch · Post by **briarpatch** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:50 pm

Many posters claim the americanized GSP, taken as a whole, do not look and function exactly like the DKs in Germany today.

And many of the americanized GSP do not look and function exactly a like also

it clearly may have been informational for newbies

I sure hope so...

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:55 pm

I agree totally with Big Shooter in that we have not allowed this post to get out of hand, it has been a very long discussion rehasing alot of points from both sides but I have enjoyed reading all the opinions (even though I still have mine). Though it is kind of funny that we need to point out that we havent "flamed out". haha

markj · Post by **markj** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:17 pm

Let me guess no American bred dogs kill cats?

My female, ped is in my sig, will kill any cat that isnt mine, she also kills varmints like skunks, coons etc. But around kids she is all pet me love me. Same as the german dogs I had. Had one dog, he would stand over my birds, would growl at any other dog that looked at them or got close. Never bit anyone or any other dog.

Ridge-point, that is one nice looking dog there.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:55 pm

markj wrote:..., she also kills varmints like skunks, coons etc. But around kids she is all pet me love me.

MJ, After our GSPs mess with skunks ... they come around us all pet me, love me, also!

:roll:

craigburns · Post by **craigburns** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:13 am

AKC doesn't have anything to do with the standard and the AKC parent club for the breed is GSPCA. But, the NGSPA is not AKC at all and has no devotion to "showdog" breeding. In my personal opinion AKC is nothing but a puppy mill registry that would register a goat as "pure bred" if you paid them their twenty bucks. People act like AKC are some kind of authority. All they are is a all breed registry that propagate a puppy mill mentality. I see people advertize "AKC registered" as some kind of credibility building badge of "goodness". Between the show dog people and the puppy peddlers the "standard" means little anyway. AKC TITLES MEAN Little. I hunted with a dog one time that was number three in AKC derby points that year and wasn't even a decent bird dog. He finished as a AFC when he was seven years old. I would recomend that people with bird dogs migrate away from AKC to places that have a more realistic aproach of determining the quaility bird dog genetics. NSTRA, UBH, and your local bird dog club would be the places to see if you have a good one. FDSB and American Field Publishing were around long before AKC. The real MCCOY hall of fame bird dogs are at Grand Junction, Tn.

bruns333 · Post by **bruns333** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:51 am

Welcome and nice first post craig! Every registry has its flaws and faults.

Do you believe the current AKC German Shorthaired Pointer Standards are flawed?