Hello , an intro and a question about King Llwellin Setters

phoenix · Post by **phoenix** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:09 am

Hello everyone, I want to introduce myself. My name is Forrest, I am 34 years old and live in central VA. Although there has been a decline for sure, I guess I am a little lucky to still find quial in decent enough numbers to bring a few smiles to my face and we have a decent ruff grouse population as well. I have had the pleasure of hunting over a few good dogs through the years most of which were more natural than trained, although trained where needed of course. So my question is, who has actually owned a King setter and what did you see from the dog, how was his natural ability, did the dog crave and lust for the bird? Do you have any other dogs to compare the King setter to? Most importiantly would they be your first choice if you had to replace your huntin buddy with another Llewellin? Also I have to kindly ask that the issues about the FDSB be left aside. I am after a hunting companion. I have no intrest in breeding, competition or if the dog is even registered. I care if he hunts! My granfather ,a Native American, was the wisest woodsman that I have ever met. I remember him telling me about this old english pointer mix that he came across as a stray that was just a bird dog plain and simple best Granpa had seen. Grandpa told me that he figured the dog had some good genes and as a stray natural instinct had taken over and when he found a home that wasnt going to stop! for I will be training my dog and will be from time to time enrolling him with a professional so that he can get good bird exposure, nothing trains a natural hunter better than its quarry! At least thats my opinion! So any input about the King setters will be great! Even if you have just hunted over one. Its also hard to ignore how many King studs and dams fill the pedigrees of most of the other Llewellin breeders.

phoenix · Post by **phoenix** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:14 am

Also, It might be worth mentioning that I am looking at the Blizzard/Blizzstone American lines. I mentioned this because of Hank and Dash, we all know them! They are from the origional Bondhu lines. If you own a King setter, can you include his basic lineage?

gunner · Post by **gunner** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:36 am

I heard the kennel is closing. Maybe you could get into the dispersal sale.

dlfl · Post by **dlfl** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:27 pm

King did a lot to save the llewellin. His record keeping along with some problems with russian dogs he brought over. here is a link to many llewellin breeders.
http://www.llewellinsetter.net/breeders.html

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:57 pm

I have had experience with 2 King setters. They loved their birds. They were as untrainable as any dog I have had the occasion to help train.

rockllews · Post by **rockllews** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:15 pm

First off, welcome.

Why is King your first choice? Just because of Hank and Dash? :::TV stars, nothing more.

On Edit: I've decided to edit/delete the bulk of my post, as the OP had the opportunity to read it already. I don't like to bash breeders, but also feel not everything should be swept under the carpet. PM if you'd like. End of Edit.

You might jump on over to the Delphiforums Our Llewellins board- there's more Llew folks there that could help you out, as well as some good breeders participating on it.

Good luck
Chelsea

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:32 pm

rockllews wrote:...Just because of Hank and Dash? :::TV stars, nothing more.

I thought they were nice looking dogs too.

Flush · Post by **Flush** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:19 pm

My sample size is small with King Llews, but their hunting prowess was only so-so. The number of health issues was very alarming. I may have just been unluckly as like I said I have only "known" a few firthand, but based on what I have seen I could not recommend this kennel to anyone I know.

phoenix · Post by **phoenix** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:23 pm

Thanks for the quick replies and warm welcome! I am quite interested in the info you provided rockllews, thanks. King is not my first choice, I am still looking at everyone, its just that in doing so I saw alot of King's stock in many breeders pedigrees. I am curious as to the opinions of the community regarding King dogs. There is a great wealth of knowledge amung us and as a collective we as a resource are invaluable. There is nothing more valuable that a large group from which to draw a consensus from. That being said, yes Hank and Dash were movie stars and from what I can tell represent the bondhue line very well. However, I am more interested in the american lines, blizzard, blizzstone, gladstone, ect. because of the more compact stature and less feathering. I do care more about the intelligence, desire, and nose in that order more than anything though. I will be hunting in some pretty thick cover and these just seemed like good qualities for the dog I am after. I have always wanted a setter, and if my wife got to choose, we would be purchasing a Decoverly dual setter for sure but like most females I know the prettier it is the more they like it! Although I hear that are marvelous dogs in the field, I just like the look of a llew more and prefer a dedicated hunter who enjoys the family! Now, I did come close to a King llew about 7 years ago and did tons of reasearch and heard marvelous things. But in 7 years things change so here I am again educating myself. In fact the sire of the pup I was interested in then is the same sire of the pup I am interested in now Kings Blizzard Dancer and I was able to talk to a few people who had very good things to say about the quality of that dog however I am aware that the dam is just as if not more importiant and where an 11 year old male will still pass his genology the dam is younger and from the period of confusion as you say. I am just hoping to find a few current King llew owners so that I can get a handle on what a King dog possesses in the here and now.

slistoe wrote:I have had experience with 2 King setters. They loved their birds. They were as untrainable as any dog I have had the occasion to help train

I would definatly like to know more about what you mean exactly by this, it has my curiosity peaked!

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:13 pm

What exactly do I mean? 2 dogs, different owners, you couldn't teach them anything. Only two I have seen.

KYwired · Post by **KYwired** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:24 pm

Slistoe -- Could teach the owners, the dogs or both anything?

phoenix · Post by **phoenix** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:25 pm

Was it a stupidity issue or stubborn?

dudleysmith · Post by **dudleysmith** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:45 pm

you can get a English setter for a whole lot less money than a llew.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:34 pm

phoenix wrote:Was it a stupidity issue or stubborn?

Both. Never did figure out where the front was. Never saw either of them acknowledge the wind or cover. Took forever to show any semblance of understanding in any regular yard lessons and retained none of the lesson till the next day - in one case for daily lessons over a 2 month period. It was like starting with a brand new dog every morning.

Anyway, enough of my remembering those two dogs.

live4point · Post by **live4point** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:09 am

I had one,and I gave it away as a pet.I fooled with it for a year and it never showed any hunting desire.Never pointed anything.I'm sure they put out some good ones,but they are a puppy mill,and put out a LOT of pups.I personally don't think you can reliably evaluate what you have when you have that many dogs.It soon just becomes a puppy sellin business.

phoenix · Post by **phoenix** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:10 am

Well, I honestly have to say that I was hoping to hear about a few positive experiences. But so far, none. That gets a huge booo!!! I know the ES can be found a bit cheaper, just rather have a llew. I am going to keep up my search, the kennels that I am most interested in will have litters in the fall so thats a plus, I need to start filling out some puppy request forms so I can get on the wait. I am most interested in a grouse dog so I am paying extra close attention to the few MI breeders. I have been in contact with the Kings for years and have a friendly relationship with them (which has no bearing for me when it comes to getting a quality dog, good people dont equal good dogs!) I think I am going to rescue one of their dogs as well, as my wife would love to have a companion too. We are about to loose our oldest Dalmation at 13 and our youngest Dal has never been alone so a new house mate for here wouls be nice. Honestly I have been worried about how she would take it when I was always leaving her behind to go train/work the new guy! They have a nine week old that she said she would let me have without breeding rights for 350.00 so I think I am going to take a chance with him and use him as a family pet and to start practicing some training in anticipation of a fall litter. I am still thinking about it. I will let you know!
fg

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:56 am

phoenix wrote:They have a nine week old that she said she would let me have without breeding rights

There is an interesting concept - unregisterable dogs with restricted breeding rights.

live4point · Post by **live4point** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:42 am

Some say how they have done so much for the Llewellin setter,but might the exact opposite be true? Now we have a bunch of unregisterable setters out there.

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:31 am

I've only had experience with one, a Hank daughter, and I will say that it was the worst dog of any breed I had ever known. Mean, stupid, and zero bird drive. You couldn't get your hands on her without getting bit and couldn't have another dog within a mile or she'd tear it apart. On the rare occasion she stumbled upon a bird, she'd pee on it (or where it had been) and move on--usually to the back. Her owner was a VERY experienced setter person with the patience of God.

I know enough not to judge an entire breed on one encounter, but that bitch left an ugly taste in my mouth. English setters are such great dogs, but I could never consider a Llwellin. My concern is that because they are 'out of the ordinary,' too many of them are bred simply for that uniqueness, (or the popularity of a TV show) and without regard to health, temperament, and hunting ability. That was definately the case in this particular dog.

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

rockllews · Post by **rockllews** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:09 pm

live4point wrote:Some say how they have done so much for the Llewellin setter,but might the exact opposite be true? Now we have a bunch of unregisterable setters out there.

Live4Point, May I point out the obvious: For every dog King has sold, SOMEONE has bought one. Either the buyers don't know or they don't care, but they did choose his dogs over other breeders'. So you can't lay it all on them. People can't sell pups if no one will buy them. And, he's not the only one breeding/selling IPDBA/non-FDSB Llewellins either.

zzweims wrote:My concern is that because they are 'out of the ordinary,' too many of them are bred simply for that uniqueness, (or the popularity of a TV show) and without regard to health, temperament, and hunting ability. That was definately the case in this particular dog.

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

Aline, You are not the only one with this concern, and I assure you there are Llew breeders right now who are taking exactly what you said into consideration. And yes

:roll: , there are still those who are marketing Hank, Hank, Hank or that these are the finest, world class dogs available etc. I know some are just after money or a big name, but I can't say that for many of the breeders I know. I'm sorry you had such a horrible experience with one of his dogs- she sounds like she was quite pathetic. If only folks did their research like Phoenix is trying to do....

phoenix · Post by **phoenix** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:23 pm

Ok, so Duff arrived and in my opinion is a bundle of joy! After his 6 hr flight cramped in his little cage, cold, stressd and scared I was expecting to find a pup that well was a bit traumatized. To be honest, I cant fly with out meds and I know whats going on! I was shocked to find a very energetic pup that bounded out of the crate and "got his frolic on" the poor weeds never stood a chance! I am pleased to say that his nose works, at least for food (i bet he was starving )there was a treat that I had forgotten in my front jeans pocket for the introduction (not needed) that once he was 5 feet from me drove him crazy and caused him to start tring to climb my leg. Of course still absent minded about the treat I bent down to pick him up and when I was close enough he put his nose right on it and went chomp! It was quite cute! I hope he shows the same intrest in birds with a little less chomp of course! Since he was in such a good mood we went to pet smart for a colar and lead where I was very pleased to see a polite demenor from him with no fear of people or dogs! To make him even more admirable he accepted the collar and lead and put up no fuss to it possibly introduced to it already, hehe fine by me! Now am the farthest thing from a llew expert but I think he is simply beautiful and the best part is that he is my dog! He is a huge sweetheart and love to get his snuggle on. I cant imagine why he was so tired! He he is an unregisterable King dog who just might turn out to be worthless as a hunter and if so he can chill and goof off with the dalmations and just keep us full on feeling loved. For the price of the pup and what I learned from my research I just felt like I had to give him a try and at the very least rescue him to a happy home! If I could give them enough love I would take them all. I have an opinion about dogs, religion and how the can help you relate to our relationship with GOD and they are devine to me because of what they are capeable of teachin us. I'm sorry if that comes off as a sermon but the Lord askes me to share my faith to spread his word. I have always had a weakness for the underdog because I have seen first hand what they can do if you will just believe! Tell me that deep in you soul that you wouldnt love to see the "runt" of your next prize litter crowned a NC?! I am going to give this little guy my all as a trainer, and I will also be sending him of to camp so that he has a fair shot at maximizing his potential! So with out further delay, here is my clan! We have Trio (f) dal, Jeffy (m) dal and sire to Trio Mr. Spaz the cat, and of course my new little man, Duff!

phoenix · Post by **phoenix** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:52 pm

Lol and one more thing! Yes i know my dals are fat! They are old 9 and 13 and just cant really get them to want to exercize enough to stay in shape! They are very lazy these days! I feed them Natures Recipie Senior, but admittedly let them have full access to the food bowl! They are great dogs and have been a pleasure! The had alot to do with me buying a King dog! Everyone warned me about the "Dals" but my wife had to have one so,,,,,,,, everyone was wrong and I love the fact that my dals are stewards for the breed! LOL any way a few more pics!

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taxidermy · Post by **taxidermy** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:14 pm

phoenix , You owe me a cocktail ; I was having one and droped it on my keyboard when i saw your first pic ..THINKING, you thought that was a setter [your spotted dog] haha
btw.. nice looking little setter.
I should learn to read first then scrool to the bottom.

phoenix · Post by **phoenix** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:29 pm

lol, yeah, when he gets bigger, it wil prob really throw people for a loop! Maybe I will corner the breed dalmation setter! lol you know dals origionaly were used as pointers, but their protective nature along with amazing stamina led them to their fame of the carrige (sp) dog. They would run with the horses and protect them! so if ya got some nose and a litle style, talk about your big running pointer! My male Jeffy was amazing when he was younger, his muscle mas was astounding I would let him out beside the truck when we went trail riding and he would never quit and Im talking miles! Always amazed me how long he could run!

Pleasant Ridge · Post by **Pleasant Ridge** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:32 pm

Phoenix,

Good looking pup... Yes, you will get some negativity thrown toward your pup because of the breeding.. However, I would not in anyway let it discourage you... I know that some stated bad things about Kings dogs in this thread, but I can tell you several positives that I have encountered from the King bred dogs.. Dogs are like people not everyone is going to live up to their billing, just the way it is with Bird dogs.. Yes, you increase your chances with a well bred pup..

I for one had a dog that the top side was King and was originally papered Llewellin, but due to the fiasco that took place her pups had to be papered as English setters.. This in no way changed the hunting desire or ability, the dog knew no difference... She was a good bird dog and she whelped a few fine pups

It looks to me as you are already starting the pup off right by socializing it, keep doing that, love it, teach it manners and give it birds.. With the right opportunities hopefully you will have a fine bird dog.. What you purchased and what you took off the airplane was dedication, work, and a whole bunch of HOPE...

Parker
Psalms 40

phoenix · Post by **phoenix** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:40 pm

Great reply pleasant ridge! The sire of my pup, Kings Blizzard Dancer is a proven stud, and I have talked with a few people who own pups he sired, that were able to see him work in his prime and word is he is a fabulous dog! The Dam is Kings Gladstone Cherel and sadly there isnt much info on her and I am afraid that she may have some "russian" in her. If so, oh well! His personality on day one has been more than enough to cover his cost! I am still looking at breeders and will be looking to purchase another llew in the fall/winter as well and I am also considreing the Decovely line. I prefer a llew but my wife is in love with the look of the dual and fair enough they are quite regal. The price though!! Ouch! I am going to give this pup my all and even expose him to some profesional training as well. I will be keeping the thread posted! I BELIEVE that little Duff is going to be a superstar! If his nose ever works as good on birds as it does right now for food the grouse population in VA is going to decline! I challenged him against the dals by letting them sniff a treat and hiding it in the yard and he strait whiped the pants of the dals. (not that they are known for their noses) I mean he started circling with that little head up and boom was on it! I know its not that big of a deal because it is a treat and has a very strong odor but he took it from the older and VERY wise FAT dals. It was enough to impress and motivate me out of a 9 week wk pup! He also has no water fear, I walked him to the creek this evening and he was in! Lol he jumped in and went completely under but it didnt phaze him! He really enjoyed himself! I cant wait for him to settle in over the next cpl weeks so we can start our training. I am going to use the book that was most recomended to me, Gun Dog by Richard Wolters. Everyone raves about it and and I have read it fron to back 3 times but dont quite have it memorized yet. I am no stranger to trainging dogs, I am quite talented with obedience and tricks, but I am aware that birds are a little different, and it requires complex thought from the dog and some learning on the go. Either way I will be rewarded with many years with a companion and maybe a hunter too!
fg

Pleasant Ridge · Post by **Pleasant Ridge** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:50 pm

Good deal,

I know a lot of folks have read and used Wolters books in the past..Before I got to sold on his methods I would check out some others..Delmar Smith's "best way to train your bird dog" is an awfully good read and resource... A lot depends on the dog...

Where are you located in Va.?

Parker

phoenix · Post by **phoenix** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:48 pm

Lynchburg, hunt mostly national forest land, at snowden, and peddlar river, chase grouse on the back side of crabtree falls/shoe creek.

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:36 pm

That puppy shows his Blizzard blood.

live4point · Post by **live4point** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:29 am

That's a nice looking pup,hope he turns into a dandy bird dog for you-I was one of the ones that had a dud King dog,but have enough sense to know they surely aren't all duds.While I dont think the practice of breeding unregisterable dogs is a good practice,especially on the scale of the King dogs,I have owned several dogs that were not registered over the years.I dont breed dogs,so a dogs papers just take up space in my drawer.In defense of King,once his dogs were deemed unregisterable,what was he to do,put them all down,or continue on,which he did.The bad thing is this situation caused alot of innocent people to have the extra hassle of this DNA business.I also wonder,as Mr.King is not a spring chicken anymore,what will happen with his registry he started on his own when he is gone,that buyers are led to believe means something,which I think most people can see really doesn't.Anyway,like I said before,I think you have a fine looking pup,and wish you the best.

dlfl · Post by **dlfl** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:23 am

One great looking pup! I had a Lew that was Kings breeding on the bottom and Williams Chapman on the top. He was one bird crazy dog. As a pup he would chase the crap birds for ever. He even pointed them on the power lines. He worked well for me and was with me everyday at work. Easy to train also.

He had one problem and that was allergies. Testing for our area of the states showed him to be sensitive to 23 different things, both food and plants. By the time he was almost 2 he had had the best treatment knowned at this time. I had to put him down as the huge sores and scabs were torture for him. This was last July.

The lew breeders were great in their support. Many offered a pup to me to replace him.

Enjoy your pup and it will fast become your best companion and friend.

"bleep"

phoenix · Post by **phoenix** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:11 am

What a shame, I am so sorry for you! Untimely losss is the worst! Thanks for your info!
Fg

phoenix · Post by **phoenix** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:23 am

highcotton wrote:That puppy shows his Blizzard blood.

It looks like my pup shares quite a bit of ancestory with Some of your Sires and dams! Mostly in the grandapents 4th and 5th gen(what is that like 12.5% genology from the 4th gen and 6.5% from the 5th) but it is still quite nice to see! You have some beautiful llews!
fg

rockllews · Post by **rockllews** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:36 am

FG, Congrats on your pup- I'm sure glad you like him and that he's settling in so well.

It sounds like you two will have lots of fun, and I bet much of it will be in the field.

I'll second the suggestion of looking at Smith's book or Paul Long's book. You might also find the Smith Puppy Development dvds or the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish set helpful- these are all often recommended on the board.

(Oh, by the way, socialization with people and pets is very important for pups, but if it were me, I would keep him away from Petsmart/Petco until he has all his puppy shots. Sooooooo many people take their dogs to those kinds of places (and dog parks) that you never know what might be there.)

Have fun with Duff and best of luck,
Chelsea

Pleasant Ridge · Post by **Pleasant Ridge** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:25 pm

(Oh, by the way, socialization with people and pets is very important for pups, but if it were me, I would keep him away from Petsmart/Petco until he has all his puppy shots. Sooooooo many people take their dogs to those kinds of places (and dog parks) that you never know what might be there.)

rockllews,

you are smarter than the average bear for sure... When my pups are young I don't even take them in the Vet's office, instead I have the Vet come outside... I have always thought that petsmart was probably not the best place for a pup.....

Phoenix,

You said something about a trainer.. I don't know who you were considering, if you like I can make you a couple suggestions that are here close to the Southern Appalachians..

Parker

High Brass · Post by **High Brass** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:32 pm

If a dual type dog is what you might be considering do a google search for "Ryman English Setters", this should give you a good selection of breeders raising the dual type dogs. The prices of these dogs will be a considerably less than the Decoverlys. There are good numbers of them being used for grouse in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Eastern Kentucky, and West Virginia. We have a two year old female from Eastern Kentucky: she is very biddable, and a pleasure to hunt with, live with, and look at. She is not a big running dog, but has always hunted with and for me. If I was not old and fat now she would move out as much as I was able too. If I could help further PM me or call (217-246-5403)

Best of Luck
Bob

phoenix · Post by **phoenix** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:59 pm

Thanks for the info about the petsmart, I never thought about it! I just realy want him to be social! Good advice! I am very interested in trainers near Va. Love to hear some recomendations!

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:21 pm

phoenix wrote:
highcotton wrote:That puppy shows his Blizzard blood.
It looks like my pup shares quite a bit of ancestory with Some of your Sires and dams! Mostly in the grandapents 4th and 5th gen(what is that like 12.5% genology from the 4th gen and 6.5% from the 5th) but it is still quite nice to see! You have some beautiful llews!
fg

I am partial to the Blizzard/Royacelle breeding because of their speed and style. IMO Kings' III (3rd) generation American dogs (Royacelle III, Bomber III, etc. were the best Llewellins ever. The quality of King dogs started slipping with the IV (4th) generation. I beleive this to be true in terms of hunting ability as well as health issues. I don't know why.

There is no doubt that King made a major contribution to the Llewellin strain. If not for his program the American bred Llewellin would most likely no longer exist.

BTW, If I were getting a King dog today, I would do exactly what you did and get a Blizzard Dancer puppy.

Charles

Pleasant Ridge · Post by **Pleasant Ridge** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:39 pm

highcotton wrote:
phoenix wrote:
highcotton wrote:That puppy shows his Blizzard blood.
It looks like my pup shares quite a bit of ancestory with Some of your Sires and dams! Mostly in the grandapents 4th and 5th gen(what is that like 12.5% genology from the 4th gen and 6.5% from the 5th) but it is still quite nice to see! You have some beautiful llews!
fg
I am partial to the Blizzard/Royacelle breeding because of their speed and style. IMO Kings' III (3rd) generation American dogs (Royacelle III, Bomber III, etc. were the best Llewellins ever. The quality of King dogs started slipping with the IV (4th) generation. I beleive this to be true in terms of hunting ability as well as health issues. I don't know why.

There is no doubt that King made a major contribution to the Llewellin strain. If not for his program the American bred Llewellin would most likely no longer exist.

BTW, If I were getting a King dog today, I would do exactly what you did and get a Blizzard Dancer puppy.

Charles

Charles,

I have read from others the same thing that you just wrote.. That the 3rd generation dogs were the best, that seems odd but the popular opinion, there must be something to it..

I have Bondhu's now and am starting to research some of the Blizzard\Bomber\Royacelle dogs for my next pup, I may be giving you a call for some background...

Parker

mtjim · Post by **mtjim** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:40 am

In 2006 after months of research and looking I purchased a King setter pup (Bondhu line). She quickly won our hearts. I worked with her in the yard with a wing and worked with her in the garage on retrieving and that's all I did. She was whelped in June and I started letting her go with me and my old setter every time we went hunting starting in November. Nothing for a while happened. She just ran and played but I noticed one important factor - she never got lost. No matter how heavy the cover or how far away she'd get she always found me quickly when she discovered I was out of sight.

On a quick afternoon hunt in late November close to home where I knew one covey of quail might be found, she honored my old setter for the first time. I knew it was a single bird so I decided to see how long she would honor. She never moved and finally I decided that if I was going to shoot the bird I had to do something or else my old setter would think I had lost my mind.

From that day on she has never failed to honor another dog on point. She retrieves, points, and backs naturally. I have never had another dog with anymore natural desire or agility. I've shot wild quail and pheasants over her for the last two seasons. She's not the best dog I've ever owned but she's in the top 5.

Now I have a young King male - age 18mos, and he's a totally different animal. We may make it yet. He's got a great nose and is the most loving dog I have ever owned. So far he's pointed one pheasant and that's it. We'll wait and see. I'm patient because I've given away some good dogs that later turned out great. Some of these setters are just on different clocks.

Wa Chukar Hunter · Post by **Wa Chukar Hunter** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:49 pm

My observations and experience has been much different than some of the posters. I find llewellins easily trainable, hard going to laid back in disposition. They are not that difficult to break steady to wing and shot and are as good as many dogs here in TX for quail.

Phoenix - glad you found something that would work for you. My experience with King dogs is that recently they are not my kind of dog - but several in the past were.

My personal preference runs to Blizzard Dogs with Royacelle and Bomber in there too - To this preference we bred two of our finest dogs together Whiterock Forever Knight (CH Shoeleathers TannerX Sherrods Pretty Polly) and Whiterock Mali (Dunns Lonestar Bama and Lonestars Bomber Prissy). We had 8 pups born today from that breeding.

Much of it has to do with experience - but I find llewellins to be trainable, very competitive and great family companions.

Here are the names of some llewellins that I really like ( and there are others too)

CH Shoeleathers Tanner
CH Teasel Wind Em
CH Arties Royal Mac
FC/AFC Blackeyed Storm MH
Whiterock Forever Knight
Blizzards Bomberstone Diva
Whiterock Mali
Southwind Hurrikane
Whiterock Jackaranda
Whiterock Cordite
Living Will Windem
Sassy Wind Em
Whiterock Elegance
Whiterock Epic
Mac's Dashing MJ

Keith

phoenix · Post by **phoenix** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:30 am

Thanks for the additional info, it good to keep hearing the experience you guys have had with King's dogs. Duff is 11weeks now and so far is 90% on come, walks politely to leash, complies with "no bite" and is fetching as a game and releases upon the comand give 90% of the time. I have intoduced him to the cap gun and 209 primer with little attion paid except increased alertnes with a desire to locate the sound for investigation. He is becoming quite brave and is exploring the world on his own when we go for our daily walks. I take him into the big woods every day to a different place for walks. These are unfamiliar places, but resemble the places we will be hunting. I have kept him away from the hunting areas, not sure how he would respond to a busting grouse . I have not introduced him to birds yet. Other than wings, and the feather pile from a hawk kill he nosed up. I think he is doing great! I will be at Maurices seminar at Piney Run Kennels in May and hopefuly Mo will be able to give him a good evaluation. I am hoping that Mo will take him into his puppy program. The one thing all trainers agree on in making a good bird dog is birds. Birds, birds, and more birds! So getting him some where that he will see a fair share is importiant to me and I am liking what I have found out about how Mo trains. The only dogs I would have considered from King were from Kings Blizzard Dancer or Roycelle IV. In all the people I was able to contact who owned King pup, I never got an ill response about the quality of dogs from both those two sires. Al told me that RoyIV was the best natural bird dog he had ever seen, and tha Dancer was his best and I would be hard pressed to find a true hunteing companion that more birds had been shot over. I just like the conformation of the blizzard line thats why I chose the pup I did. And with luck as It was Dancers last litter.