Pressuring a Pup

[Merle]

I recently had a conversation with a "veteran" trainer the other day and as we talked about dogs and such the topic turned to training pups and young dogs. I remember reading several opinions on here about letting a pup be a pup and he pretty much agreed. What surprised me most was a comment he made that if you put too much pressure on a dog early they will quit on you when they get about 3 years old. Anyone heard of this before? I don't know too much about bird dogs and even less about training one. Thanks

[kninebirddog]

they will quit you much sooner then that

and then when they mature they can shut down

kinda like adult putting pressure on that kid having fun in little league. you take the fun out of it and they don't want to play anymore

let them grow up play the game give them the foundation then when they are mature enough then polish them up and then make them an all star player when they are ready for it.

[Benny]

I've never heard that, but I like K9's analogy. Every once in a while you hear about the famed highschool quarterback destined for greatness from years of thorough backyard training from his fall-out college quarterback father...then one day the kid gives it all up and says he wants to be an actor :roll:

[gonehuntin']

It would take one heck of an amount of pressure to get a good dog to shut down. In fact, it would have to border on abuse. Take a look at the NAVHDA and how young they train and learn. If you have a GOOD dog from reliable breeding, even with a lot of pressure they become bolder and bolder as they mature.

I personally, have NEVER had any dog shut down on my at three.

[Sprig]

it really depends on the dog. some dogs thrive on pressure. some dont handle it as well as others. it also depend on the type of presure and how the pressure is given. Every dog can handle some degree of pressure but not all dogs can handle high levels of pressure or pressure given in the wrong manner. if a dog is going to fall apart from pressure it wont take a couple of years, it will take a couple of months.

[cjuve]

It would take one heck of an amount of pressure to get a good dog to shut down. In fact, it would have to border on abuse. Take a look at the NAVHDA and how young they train and learn. If you have a GOOD dog from reliable breeding, even with a lot of pressure they become bolder and bolder as they mature.

I personally, have NEVER had any dog shut down on my at three.

Tell me that I am reading this wrong... Are you saying that it is ok to put alot of pressure on a pup??

[BoJack]

gonehuntin",
Your perception of Pressure must differ from most others.You give your pups and and dogs a lickin' and they keep on tickin"?? They must be out of them Tuff Timex lines.

Sprig,
Good post and True

[Birddog 307]

I agree with Gone hunting it would take a trainer that has no concept of what he was doing to shut a good dog down. If you are the type of trainer that beats a dog then that might be a different story. All my pups have had pressure applied while training at some point. It might be a checkcord or ecollar being used for training. The pups by the time they are a year old are birddogs that will point and back and let you shoot the birds. I have never had one shutdown and these are pups you could have been hunting over at four months of age.
Birddog 307

[BoJack]

Birddog
I think most dogs need some pressure sometime in their training, when they're ready for it.And some will need different degrees of it.I still agree fully with Sprig's post.And merle's original post states "Too Much" pressure.Would you put Too Much pressure on one of your dogs when you know they're not ready for it yet or may not be able to handle it? You're right,any knowledgeble trainer can train a dog without breaking it down,by knowing when,how much and to what degree of pressure to put on a dog.What you're talking about with a year old dog is starting and bringing a dog along in training right and the key words in your post pertaining to pressure is "At Some Point"(knowing When they're ready and how much).And "Lickin" can also mean Mental not just Physical

[Birddog 307]

BoJack you did a better job of explaining it than me. Yes you are right I bring pups along and work with them almost everyday. Some people think that any pressure is to much on a pup. If people think they have to use alot pressure to train a dog they better forget about dogs and get a mule. They will get a wake up call at some point in the training.
Birddog 307

[snips]

THere are some breeds that can take NO pressure, can barely handle simply things. So, better research your breeds before saying it takes alot to shut a dog down. It comes down to the indivual dog most times, and some dogs it can only take a wrong collar correction at just the wrong moment.

[Tony Brown]

IMO with any training you go at the pup's pace. not yours. If the pup is messing up or seems confused......you are going too fast for this pup or "putting too much pressure". Back up and wait until it's ready. A wise, wise trainer once told me "YOU CAN"T PUT STYLE IN A DOG BUT YOU CAN CERTAINLY TAKE IT OUT"

[slamsetter]

birds make bird dogs. Exposing pups to that is not pressure. Its that stuff people do in the back yard when birds aren't involved that constitutes pressure. There's a huge difference. most people associate pressure with birds when in reality it's the back yard games that mess them up. Right or wrong????

What is pressure by definition? Thats the question I think needs to be addressed. someone please exsplain that one?

[ezzy333]

Pressure can be described as any training that has a negative effect on a dog. And it can take place anywhere. Any type of training that forces a dog to submit is pressure. Example is breaking to lead, any training done with a CC, training with an E-collar. Positive training is giving the pup a reward for kenneling or for coming when called. But once you have to use the leash or CC to make the pup resond then it becomes negative and results in pressure. So with soft puppies go very slow and careful if you want them to respond with happiness and style rather than the whipped look that says I don't want to. Happy dogs always win in my opinion.

Ezzy

[GsPJustin]

If you have any thoughts, questions or concerns that you might be pressuring your dog to much, or don't know what to much pressure is for your dog. Go find someone who does, and let them teach you while there teaching the dog.

[crackerd]

Very good insight, Justin. Just the right cautionary tone. Otherwise, GH is absolutely on the money. What the heck does "let a puppy be a puppy" mean, anyhow--is that some kind of Zen koan or what? At 8 weeks, their brains are virtually full-sized. Gundogs are little sponges, they take it in rapidly. Training--for the many of you who have a wide (w i d e) latitude for use of the word--takes many shapes. If you think putting too much pressure on a puppy is asking it to sit in front of its food bowl before releasing it to eat, or recalling it to your side with or without a checkcord, please expand your horizons and your understanding of what training is all about.

MG

[Rick Hall]

Came as a great surprise when I got on this Internet thing and learned the early puppy training we'd been doing for years was going to sap their desire and ruin them. Now on our tenth and still waiting to see it happen...

(Have also noticed there's no shortage of "How do I fix this bad habit I let Pup develop?" questions on the net.)

[kninebirddog]

Thing is there is knowing how to guide a young dog into doing many things and keeping it fun

then there is drilling a dog and getting on them to hard which can sour out a dog and that can get them to shut down. and unfortunately I get to see more then my share of dogs like that from over zealous owners wanting to get to much done to fast or are to strict in what they want their dogs to learn

[crackerd]

GH --got my 14-month old debuting this week in an open stakes.

MG

[jeogsp]

Getting back to the original question, I know many people in the dog game and have never heard of a dog shutting down at three years of age due to early age pressure. I have seen dogs shut down due to pressure but not years after.

[RayGubernat]

I think the real question might just be: Pressuring a pup to do WHAT??

It seems to me that the human perception of a negative or positive outcome as a response to training is very dependent on just what type of skill or behavior you are attempting to train for. I believe it follows that the amount of pressure that is exerted to obtain the desired response, can vary widely...depending on the desired response. If the desired response is to not pee on the carpet, or not chase a deer or mess with a snake...the amount of "pressure" exerted can be significant, even on a very young dog, and the trainer's opinion of tht pressure on the animals "fragile" psyche is very likely something on the order of: "He'll get over it, he has to listen".

I personally have no concerns with "Pressuring" a puppy to give to a command lead, give to a stakeout chain, and to heel and who and come and kennel and to shut up when told to. Never seemed to impact their performance in the field. In fact, I am of the opinion that a puppy which has a firm foundation in obedience and which will respond smartly to obedience type commands will be easier to mold into a useful hunting companion and will require less "pressure" to accomplish that molding because of the solid obedience foundation that already exists. The obedient, responsive dog has already learned how to learn.

I am very careful about putting pressure on a young dog around birds because I want to maintain all the style I can. I do firmly believe that heavy handed tactics around birds will tend to bring on undesired responses around birds. The serendipitous thing is that the young dogs that I have thoroughly indoctrinated with obedience commands seem to require very little in the way of pressure around birds to get them to where I want them to be.

RayG

[BoJack]

Ray,
Well stated,and makes sense.With a good obedience foundation starting at a young age the dogs would be seeing you as the Alpha person amd most would be more willing to please and obey more quickly.

Merle,
I think you should check with your "veteran" friend and ask if he wasn't referring to another type of Physical Pressure-Too much running,too much Roading,Pushing a pup to their Physical edge and capabilities.In that senerio they would quit by 3 or even before.It's called Breaking Down,Physically.By contacting him(veteran)again he would be able to clear up exactly what he meant huh? Let us know.

[gonehuntin']

It would take one heck of an amount of pressure to get a good dog to shut down. In fact, it would have to border on abuse. Take a look at the NAVHDA and how young they train and learn. If you have a GOOD dog from reliable breeding, even with a lot of pressure they become bolder and bolder as they mature.

I personally, have NEVER had any dog shut down on my at three.

Tell me that I am reading this wrong... Are you saying that it is ok to put alot of pressure on a pup??

That's not what I said at all. I actually, never mentioned a pup at all. I train my pups continually from the time they are 8 weeks on, gently guiding, always teaching. When they are six months old they get into a little more pressure like a force HERE and at 8-10 months they go throught force.

You can train a puppy to do an AMAZING number of things if you're consistent and patient.

What I was really refering to was the fact that if pressure was put on a DOG young, it would shut down later. That simple isn't true unless the dog is abused and not pressured.

[gonehuntin']

GH --got my 14-month old debuting this week in an open stakes.

MG

That must be one heck of a dog Crackered. Make sure to let me know how it does. Unless of course pup humiliates you!

Darn fine example of how you can put organized and consistent pressure on a young dog though. Good job.

[mikenmason]

Slamsetter made a very good comment earlier. Birds make bird dogs. Anything you do without a bird involved can turn a dog off. Gunshots without birds, coller pressure...all of it (as pups). You should start a pup with birds and get him where he cannot stand a bird being around without his killer instinct coming into play....then you can start with the other stuff. That way, when you introduce the birds back into the equation when you are putting pressure on the dog, he realizes the pressure comes with reward....a BIRD! He wont ever shut down knowing that there is a bird at the end of the line. He is also more likely to do exactly what he's taught with that reward in his head. He's a bird dog....its what they are bred to do...IMO