Shorthairs and Natural Ability

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:47 am

I have seen in several post lately that GSPs dont have the natural ability that they used to or, take more training than they did in the past. I started to think about dogs we had in the past all we did was take them hunting and they figured it out, bird numbers where we hunt are not dramaticly lower, so what gives?

Several dogs we had in the past were whoa broke and then hunted hard. Man that was nice.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:10 am

Which posts have given you this impression?
Most posters on the BBs are testers as well as hunters. For hunting, most any dog can be let loose and will point a bird.
Testing to standards takes a load more work.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:16 am

I think it was MarkJ that menitoned it in the AKC standards thread.

I dont test and neither do many people they just want hunting dogs. I agree that it takes way more training to pass a test, that irrelevant to what I am talking about.

I want a dog that can be taught basic manors taken and hunted hard and will point, back, retrieve and swim. I know these dogs are around but they sure do not seem to be as common as they were in the past.

It just seems to take more work than it used to.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:46 am

ACooper wrote:It just seems to take more work than it used to.

I think the idea of "work" needed to determine if a dog has those qualities or not is not available at the 8 week mark when everyone wants to pick up a dog. It is a crap shoot. Sure you can look at the parents and pedigrees, but those guarantee nothing. That being said that if I have a "standard" of qualities I want for my next pup...I would be better off waiting until the litter is nearly 9 months or a year old. Not may breeders want to keep pups around that long for buyers to evaluate.

Example...my "versatile" dog (a GSP) had to be FF'd - he wanted nothing to do with a dead bird. He had to have the backing drill, drilled into him...and he HATES water. Excellent hunter, nose, field trial AND house dog. On the flip side, my setter, LOVES the water, backs right out of the truck, took two chukars to fly away to have her hold point, and retrieves - all before a year old.

My next purchase will be a derby aged dog, so I know what I got...JMO

markj · Post by **markj** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:59 pm

I belive I said the FT type dogs I now own take some training in the retrieve and to hold a point rather than bust the bird. They also tend to run hard and fast quickly out distancing my old body. Dogs I had in the past held a point for as long as I wouold let them. Timed a female out of hege haus lines for 1/2 hour before I flushed the bird. I hope this clears it up a bit. Anyone else have these same results? Will a pup natuarlly hold a point without being trained to do so? Some may but the last 3 pups I bought needed training in this. Will they scent and go on point? yes but then they jump towards the bird needing check cord work before I can hunt them.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:29 pm

"but then they jump towards the bird needing check cord work before I can hunt them..."

Maybe they are more prey driven or maybe there is a cooperation issue?

Bummer to hear about your GSP,dogs like that make us work harder. Research is the way to go when looking to add a dog. Cooperation has to be up there on the list of 'musts'.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:59 pm

How would one get statistics on how many GSPs are naturals these days? When these kinds of questions are asked all one gets is a bunch of anecdotal opinions that really have little true value because they are opinions and the sample size is extremely limited.

An example: Three littermates to the 2X NC NGSPA dog Spot have only been used as hunting dogs. Wagonmaster will tell you he has seen all three littermates work and "all of them could have done it if they had been tuned for trialing by a pro". All three littermates have been used extensively for hunting. They all were naturally staunch, natural retrievers and like the water. They will naturally range 20-70 yards in the cattails and 1/4 - 1/2 mile on the prairies when accompanied by a foot hunter. I have no idea how far they would range in the west in front of a horse. They naturally seek objectives & have performed tracking and retrieves of wounded birds at distances of up to 1/4 - 1/2 mile. They do not bark, are wonderful companions in the house and good around big & little people. The dam to this litter was of trial stock & the stud was NFC/NGDC/FC/AFC titled. The dam was incredible on ruffed grouse as well as ranging big on the prairies. None of the dogs have been tried on fur. None of the littermates were trained by a pro nor FF'd.

How many people have seen even 10% of the registered GSPs? We all live in our own little worlds. Trialers tend to own and see more trialed dogs. Show people see more show dogs. How many trialers or show folks have the opportunity to see hundreds/thousands of privately held GSP hunting dogs?

This thread will be full of anecdotal opinions based upon where you live, what circles you run in and devoid of any real facts.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:06 pm

BigShooter wrote:How would one get statistics on how many GSPs are naturals these days? When these kinds of questions are asked all one gets is a bunch of anecdotal opinions that really have little true value because they are opinions and the sample size is extremely limited.

An example: Three littermates to the 2X NC NGSPA dog Spot have only been used as hunting dogs. Wagonmaster will tell you he has seen all three littermates work and "all of them could have done it if they had been tuned for trialing by a pro". All three littermates have been used extensively for hunting. They all were naturally staunch, natural retrievers and like the water. They will naturally range 20-70 yards in the cattails and 1/4 - 1/2 mile on the prairies when accompanied by a foot hunter. I have no idea how far they would range in the west in front of a horse. They naturally seek objectives & have performed tracking and retrieves of wounded birds at distances of up to 1/4 - 1/2 mile. They do not bark, are wonderful companions in the house and good around big & little people. The dam to this litter was of trial stock & the stud was NFC/NGDC/FC/AFC titled. The dam was incredible on ruffed grouse as well as ranging big on the prairies. None of the dogs have been tried on fur. None of the littermates were trained by a pro nor FF'd.

How many people have seen even 10% of the registered GSPs? We all live in our own little worlds. Trialers tend to own and see more trialed dogs. Show people see more show dogs. How many trialers or show folks have the opportunity to see hundreds/thousands of privately held GSP hunting dogs?

This thread will be full of anecdotal opinions based upon where you live, what circles you run in and devoid of any real facts.

Amen. So true of this and many other "facts" about the breeds of dogs we have.

Ezzy

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:21 pm

Maybe my post should have said many shorthairs in my area/that I have bought and seen/hunted with, seem to have less natural staunchness, retrieving ability and love of water than they used to.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:42 pm

ACooper wrote:Maybe my post should have said many shorthairs in my area/that I have bought and seen/hunted with, seem to have less natural staunchness, retrieving ability and love of water than they used to.

Your post was fine and I didn't intend to be hard on you. I got on my soap box a bit and my spouting off wasn't directed at you personally. I suppose it's just that I personally tend to be more data driven. While it'd be nice to really know if there is a lower percentage of dogs these days that are truly natural versatile dogs, doing the testing and getting the data would be nigh unto impossible. So all we're left with is guessing whether the respondents in this or any other thread are representative of the population as a whole and that's okay too as long as we all take what we read with a grain of salt.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:07 pm

No problem, I didnt and dont take internet conversations personally, I just like to discuss these things and post to get different opinions.

I have a dog right now that is exactly what I am looking for, he is 11 years old and I have been through several (by several I mean 7-8) trying to get one comparable, and I have yet to do it.

markj · Post by **markj** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:28 pm

My comments are about dogs I have owned, not to be confused with any one elses dogs or even the lines they came from. We live out in the country and my dogs are exposed to birds at an early age, lots of birds. The dogs I had in the 70s and 80s were naturals at this hunting game I do, not to be confused with trials or any other form of game. Held a point till I flushed not taking it upon themselves to flush for me whether I was standing in gun range or not. I am not sure how any of this can be turned into solid data unless every dog was tested in some manner for natural abilities.

The dogs that help the point and retrieved had plenty of prey drive. Was more of a natural point and hold than a desire to see a bird fly off or a I can get it all by myself thing. I never used a check cord either. Now I am leaning towards a DKV type of dog to see how it will do.

aylaschamp · Post by **aylaschamp** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:13 pm

I haven't owned a ton of dogs compared to many on this forum but I have had several that just have it and others you have to build. My oldest bitch in my avitar is "natural". For trial purposes I had her force broke. The pups I breed for are to breed natural ability. Leo, my male and his littermate were both hunted over by 5 months old. Ezra ran her first NSTRA trial at 5 months, had a 4-4 and 2 backs. She was run as a by dog only because there were no others (she would have won had I payed the entry). My other dogs have been from "bigger running" stock and have taken more work to actually train. I stick with my own breedings, usually, to insure I get the natural dogs.

PrairieGoat · Post by **PrairieGoat** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:23 pm

Wow.....I must be really lucky......mine came ready to hunt pretty much "out of the box"! Here's how the current two stacked up:

Pointing: One pointed the first bird he encountered and has been doing it ever since. The other let a couple of bird fly and then caught on...pointing ever since.
Retrieving: Both have retrieved from day one and have only needed minor polishing.
Swimming: One took a good bit of work, the other has been a swimming nut since day one.

One of my dogs (other one tests in couple of months) received a Prize I (112) in the NAVHDA Natural Ability test with VERY little prep. Also, very little effort to train here, whoa, heel, sit, stay for both. Just beginning work on steady to shot & fall.

From my experience, certainly can't support the thesis that they don't have the natural ability they once did.....thank goodness!

Randy

limited out · Post by **limited out** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:06 pm

My dogs are extremely natural. My male Zeb, is one heck of a retriever. You can throw a cell phone and he'll retrieve it. He hasn't had a second of training as far as retriving goes. I planted a few Quail for him when he was 4 months old. He tried to get one, but it flushed, then after that he was solid. My black Female Nell, been honoring, pointing, retrieving, ever since I took her out in the field at 3 months old. Very impressive little dog. Jessy has been a great dog as well, great pointer, nice retriever, been doing the whole nine yards since she was a baby.

I belive I got natural dogs, I think a lot of people on the forum do. I think the reason you may have noticed GSP's getting weaker in Natural Ability is because there are some breeders that don't care. So it's not the GSP that is getting weaker Natural Abilities, it's careless breeders putting more un-natural pups on the ground. So I guess you just gotta do more looking to find a good one... but there are a lot of them out there.

limited out · Post by **limited out** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:18 pm

Here's 2 pups from my 2007 litter, 4 months old. This was their first encounter with a planted bird.

honeyrun · Post by **honeyrun** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:42 am

I think a lot of people on the forum do. I think the reason you may have noticed GSP's getting weaker in Natural Ability is because there are some breeders that don't care. So it's not the GSP that is getting weaker Natural Abilities, it's careless breeders putting more un-natural pups on the ground. So I guess you just gotta do more looking to find a good one... but there are a lot of them out there.

I believe you hit the nail on the head with this one. If you have to train your dog to point or hunt or retrieve (not talking "deliver to hand and present" as in NAVHDA UT tests), you definitely located the wrong dog. They either have the instincts and cooperation or they don't, those are traits that you can not train into them.

Can you train a dog that has little to no natural ability? Yep. Is it a fun experience? Well, to some it might be, but I find it very frustrating.

Do your research and find a breeder that has a track record of producing cooperative, easy to train, natural bird dogs.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:31 am

"Do your research and find a breeder that has a track record of producing cooperative, easy to train, natural bird dogs."

This is sometimes easier said than done, every breeder claims to have easy to train natural bird dogs.

There are plenty of natural dog around finding them is the problem.

To take part of the blame on myself I have come to realize I have purchased some dogs from lines that are not bred to hunt or handle the way that I prefer. I got caught up in some of the HYPE.

aylaschamp · Post by **aylaschamp** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:03 am

The problem lies in that a good trainer can teach anything to do what most bird dogs do. A shmo like me relies on good lines and dogs that train themselves. I have no pups on the ground right now and have no intentions on having any soon so I'm not trying to sell anything. The reason I pair my breedings the way I do is to get good "natural" dogs. I don't trust anything else. I breed what I know and end up with great hunters/trialers. I've never bought a dog from a "well known" trainer/breeder, only normal hunters like me.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:42 am

Could it be that many people arent breeding dogs that perform on wild birds because they dont hunt wild birds?

Just a thought for discussion.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:57 am

I don't think wild or pen raised has anything to do with it. A good dog will learn to handle any and all of them given the chance. I do think there are a lot of performance breeders that have forgotten what the performance of a good all around dog really is and may have lessened the natural ability you are talking about but improved some other aspect of the performance. I think I have seen the exact thing you are talking about in the Brits as well.

Ezzy

PrairieGoat · Post by **PrairieGoat** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:06 pm

ACooper wrote:"Do your research and find a breeder that has a track record of producing cooperative, easy to train, natural bird dogs."

This is sometimes easier said than done, every breeder claims to have easy to train natural bird dogs.

There are plenty of natural dog around finding them is the problem.

To take part of the blame on myself I have come to realize I have purchased some dogs from lines that are not bred to hunt or handle the way that I prefer. I got caught up in some of the HYPE.

I agree with your statement about "every breeder claims to have easy to train...dogs"...anytime I've looked for pups, every breeder tells me that very thing...maybe they all are, I don't know! I do know that finding "natural" dogs is not that hard...one just has to do the research.

I know I've heard folks on here say that pedigrees don't amount to much, and while I agree they aren't going to guarantee anything they can be a good risk reduction tool. A good example would be my current two dogs...the pedigrees are very different. The first one, Alex, doesn't really have any indications in the recent generations whether anyone has done any level of testing/trialing and therefore doesn't tell me a thing about the possibilities of the dog. This was a big risk on my part. To mitigate this risk, I had to go beyond the paperwork to ensure the parents were hunters, easy to train, etc.

The second dog, Boo, is a bit of a different story. His pedigree shows that his parents and recent generations could most definitely hunt and were probably fairly easy to train since there were many VCs in both sides of the bloodline. This one was a lot less risk, and enabled me to buy the pup sight-unseen (to some degree....I still researched the breeders fairly thoroughly). In both cases, as I said I ended up with very "natural" pups, just took more risk on the first than on the second.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:52 pm

I can not claim knowledge of the breed in the 80's or even 90's. My first GSP (my avatar) is just turning 10 and was thank goodness a natural cause neither of the two humans training her knew AYTHING about how you even supposed to hunt birds, let alone train a dog to do it. She flushed for 3-4 times and caught on. Has retrieved like a maniac since my sheltie showed her how at 7 weeks, and since nothing will stop her retrieves, swimming was no issue either. She has since guided hundreds of hunts a season for years and years. She is not trained to this day much beyond "here" and just manners around the family and even that is not so great. She must have knocked over my son a hundred times that first few months and no amount of training seemed to sink in since she lived life in high gear all the time. She would feel bad that he was crying and knock him right down again to lick him and I did train sit, but to no avail if there was a child on the ground to be licked. She is not exactly "attentive" but she knew her job better then we did. She is not perfect. Could list some faults that annoy me alot, but a natural she has been.

I worry that natural ability has come to be such a catch phrase. But I also worry that alot of dogs are very "trained" and it's hard to know what they were before that. I have wondered if this is a product of "sight unseen" buying and listing of dogs. In the "old days" people bought dogs from someone they knew. And they knew how it hunted and it's trouble areas cause they usually hunted with their buddy and his/her dog before buying a pup. Or at least knew first hand someone who had and spoke well of the dog. BUT I do not think they were overall beter dogs. I cannot say as I did not have one then. It is merely the not knowing that worries me. So many folks have females they know but end up breeding them to particular stud dog nationally known for whatever, and they don't really know much of anything about that dog other than titles and what they have become. What they were may be a mystery. I watched a solid black pup run around practicing for a NA test at 4 months old and I could have told you then, that THAT was a NICE dog. And he is, even more so all grown up. He is a total outcross to my lines, but I still rank him WAY up there on the stud dog list just from that first time watching him. And to be honest, other my own, how many have I really seen working at that age? Very few... so what do I know? Not much, but am I better of to stick with the little I do?

I think about all these things too much my spouse tells me.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:38 pm

Ezzy I agree with you I have seen a large increase in some traits (run, independence etc) but maybe at the cost of cooperation and natural caution around birds?

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:08 pm

PntrRookie wrote:
ACooper wrote:My next purchase will be a derby aged dog, so I know what I got...JMO

Many want the puppy experience but I could not agree more.......

CM

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:12 pm

Just read all the posts......

I may be a newbie on here, but generalities get people cross and there is always spin.......

CM

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:22 pm

ACooper wrote:Could it be that many people arent breeding dogs that perform on wild birds because they dont hunt wild birds?

Just a thought for discussion.

No need for discussion here. Wild birds above all. Any proven handler or pro can take a derby dog that loves to hunt and can find wild birds, looks good goin' with a big motor and move towards winning.......

CM

limited out · Post by **limited out** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:29 pm

Chasin' Mearns wrote:
ACooper wrote:Could it be that many people arent breeding dogs that perform on wild birds because they dont hunt wild birds?

Just a thought for discussion.
No need for discussion here. Wild birds above all. Any proven handler or pro can take a derby dog that loves to hunt and can find wild birds, looks good goin' with a big motor and move towards winning.......

CM

Wild Birds has nothing to do with GSP's being Natural..... You can start off with a pup that has little to no natural ability, train it, force fetch, and get it dead broke, give it 5 seasons of wild birds hunting them 3x a week or whatever number floats your boat. If you breed that dog, every single pup is gonna have to go through that same process just to make a nice dog. What makes a natural pup is natural parents.

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:25 pm

limited out wrote:
Chasin' Mearns wrote:
ACooper wrote:Could it be that many people arent breeding dogs that perform on wild birds because they dont hunt wild birds?

Just a thought for discussion.
No need for discussion here. Wild birds above all. Any proven handler or pro can take a derby dog that loves to hunt and can find wild birds, looks good goin' with a big motor and move towards winning.......

CM
Wild Birds has nothing to do with GSP's being Natural..... You can start off with a pup that has little to no natural ability, train it, force fetch, and get it dead broke, give it 5 seasons of wild birds hunting them 3x a week or whatever number floats your boat. If you breed that dog, every single pup is gonna have to go through that same process just to make a nice dog. What makes a natural pup is natural parents.

Wild birds have everything to do with the nuture of natural ability in the first season.

dudleysmith · Post by **dudleysmith** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:37 pm

limited out wrote:
Wild Birds has nothing to do with GSP's being Natural..... You can start off with a pup that has little to no natural ability, train it, force fetch, and get it dead broke, give it 5 seasons of wild birds hunting them 3x a week or whatever number floats your boat. If you breed that dog, every single pup is gonna have to go through that same process just to make a nice dog. What makes a natural pup is natural parents.

This is one of the silliest things i have ever saw written. alot more into making a pup comes into play than just his mom or dad. alot of traits will skip a generation or two. so a pup that is worthless but had a father that was the best that's ever been could produce pup's just like his dad not like himself.

limited out · Post by **limited out** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:52 pm

Maybe I said that wrong or you mis understood it.

dudleysmith wrote:
limited out wrote:
Wild Birds has nothing to do with GSP's being Natural..... You can start off with a pup that has little to no natural ability, train it, force fetch, and get it dead broke, give it 5 seasons of wild birds hunting them 3x a week or whatever number floats your boat. If you breed that dog, every single pup is gonna have to go through that same process just to make a nice dog. What makes a natural pup is natural parents.

This is one of the silliest things i have ever saw written. alot more into making a pup comes into play than just his mom or dad. alot of traits will skip a generation or two. so a pup that is worthless but had a father that was the best that's ever been could produce pup's just like his dad not like himself.

So what you're saying is that SOMETIMES traits skip a generation or two, so the sire and dam don't always contribute to the litter? Yeah, that's a great method for a breeding program....

As far as what I said that you said the silliest thing ever written.... well then, tell me this... if you have to force fetch the parents of a litter because their lack of ability to retrieve naturally, are you gonna expect the pups to be natural retrievers?

Really all my point was that wild birds are GREAT to teach young pups the ropes, and turn them into a serious hunter. What they won't do is improve the genetics in your breeding program! What they will do is improve the performace of the dogs in your breeidng program. But if you are breeding a un-natural dog that hunted wild birds all it's life, you are gonna get un natural puppies. Which brings us back to teh original topic... someone mentioned that Wild Birds make GSP's more NATURAL... now that's the silliest thing I have seen written. They will make a dog more solid & experienced, but the Natural Ability trait occurs in the breeding & the blood, where wild birds will occur AFTER the pup has been born, therefore, it cannot GIVE IT the natural ability trait. Wild birds may help bring out the natural abilties in a pup, but will not give them it.

dudleysmith · Post by **dudleysmith** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:04 pm

So what you're saying is that SOMETIMES traits skip a generation or two, so the sire and dam don't always contribute to the litter? Yeah, that's a great method for a breeding program....

You ever heard of a horse by the name of Secretariat?? more to a breeding program than mom and dad. If breeding was as simple as breeding Ch's to Ch's we would have Ch's all over the place

limited out · Post by **limited out** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:09 pm

I haven't heard of a horse named that. I never said a breeding program was based just off the mom and dad. I know there is a LOT more to it. But they do have a great impact on the results of a littter. Kinda an obvious statement there.

dudleysmith · Post by **dudleysmith** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:16 pm

Secretariat was the greatest race horse of all time, but he was sorry as a breeder he could only produce females. the males from him were sorry but now when you took a female by him and bred it to a certain male you would get big time horses. so this is a classic case of grandparents or great grandparents playing into the equation. Storm Cat is a good example. His stud fee was $500,000 a pop.

limited out · Post by **limited out** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:29 pm

I get your point. So I know that Grand parents are important. I knew that from the get go...

I don't want to produce dogs like Secretariat, that are a legend but only by a lucky fluke in his genes.

It sounds like you are saying that grand parents have a role in the outcome of the pups, I knew that, and I belive that

But, so do the sire and dam.

Isn't this all pretty basic stuff here

dudleysmith · Post by **dudleysmith** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:45 am

limited out wrote:I get your point. So I know that Grand parents are important. I knew that from the get go...

I don't want to produce dogs like Secretariat, that are a legend but only by a lucky fluke in his genes.

It sounds like you are saying that grand parents have a role in the outcome of the pups, I knew that, and I belive that But, so do the sire and dam.

Isn't this all pretty basic stuff here

I DO NOT THINK SECRETARIAT WAS BY A LUCKY FLUKE.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:41 am

I am a believer that good parents help in producing good pups, but I also believe the more you stack a pedigree with good producers way back, 6-10 generations, then the better overall results you will get. Just looking at a 4 generation pedigree does not tell the whole story IMO.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:37 am

Wild birds are extremely hard to come by here. You could find some timber land and hunt all day and you might find a covey. Or you might not. Our natural avatar girl was 4 years old by the time she saw her first wild bird an that was on hunting trip to illinois. Would hate to think that I could not have a good bird dog just because of where I live. I mean we work with QU and have done some not hunted naturlization projects and plantings on "public" accessable land to work on the issue, but it's tough and watching land get broken up my the day. For the sake of wildlife the stall in land sales has bought them some time, but that is another issue. I do what I can there, but I don't want to just hunt 1 time a year when I can go to real wild birds. So I should assume that if I can't get a dog on wild birds, that I can't hunt. That my dog will never show what it's got.

That's just not what I'm after. I realise wild bird will HELP a dog learn to be cautious, do things better. But I have seen plenty of pups pointing pen rasied quail and holding them staunchly after just a few flushes. Seems to me that is instinct. I'm sure wild birds would make that dog GREAT, but I haven't got them. So I still want the natural dog. I have seen mixed levels and I worry with some of the things I see. At the same time I am still seeing pups that blow me away with natural ability. I have seen some ugly ugly puppies and dogs. And some stunning ones. I have see some pups that will retieve to hand with just the littlest bit of yard work. A pups that need daily work to get the think back, and even dogs that stand there and watch it and look confused. I don't imply that there are not good dogs still. Just that there are a whole mixed bag of dogs and the tests and training can hide what they are. It's harder to find what you want.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:11 am

dudleysmith wrote:
limited out wrote:
Wild Birds has nothing to do with GSP's being Natural..... You can start off with a pup that has little to no natural ability, train it, force fetch, and get it dead broke, give it 5 seasons of wild birds hunting them 3x a week or whatever number floats your boat. If you breed that dog, every single pup is gonna have to go through that same process just to make a nice dog. What makes a natural pup is natural parents.

This is one of the silliest things i have ever saw written. alot more into making a pup comes into play than just his mom or dad. alot of traits will skip a generation or two. so a pup that is worthless but had a father that was the best that's ever been could produce pup's just like his dad not like himself.

So to sum up your point, in your opinion it is ok to bred dogs lacking in important traits because the pups might pick those up from the grand parents?

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:51 am

ACooper wrote:
dudleysmith wrote:
limited out wrote:
Wild Birds has nothing to do with GSP's being Natural..... You can start off with a pup that has little to no natural ability, train it, force fetch, and get it dead broke, give it 5 seasons of wild birds hunting them 3x a week or whatever number floats your boat. If you breed that dog, every single pup is gonna have to go through that same process just to make a nice dog. What makes a natural pup is natural parents.

This is one of the silliest things i have ever saw written. alot more into making a pup comes into play than just his mom or dad. alot of traits will skip a generation or two. so a pup that is worthless but had a father that was the best that's ever been could produce pup's just like his dad not like himself.

So to sum up your point, in your opinion it is ok to bred dogs lacking in important traits because the pups might pick those up from the grand parents?

That is going to be a tough one to explain........ I think he was trying to convey that wild birds can not make up for a poorly bred dog? If not Dudley was right and kind to just call it silly vs. other words.....

CM

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:39 am

mountaindogs wrote:Wild birds are extremely hard to come by here. You could find some timber land and hunt all day and you might find a covey. Or you might not. Our natural avatar girl was 4 years old by the time she saw her first wild bird an that was on hunting trip to illinois. Would hate to think that I could not have a good bird dog just because of where I live. I mean we work with QU and have done some not hunted naturlization projects and plantings on "public" accessable land to work on the issue, but it's tough and watching land get broken up my the day. For the sake of wildlife the stall in land sales has bought them some time, but that is another issue. I do what I can there, but I don't want to just hunt 1 time a year when I can go to real wild birds. So I should assume that if I can't get a dog on wild birds, that I can't hunt. That my dog will never show what it's got.

That's just not what I'm after. I realise wild bird will HELP a dog learn to be cautious, do things better. But I have seen plenty of pups pointing pen rasied quail and holding them staunchly after just a few flushes. Seems to me that is instinct. I'm sure wild birds would make that dog GREAT, but I haven't got them. So I still want the natural dog. I have seen mixed levels and I worry with some of the things I see. At the same time I am still seeing pups that blow me away with natural ability. I have seen some ugly ugly puppies and dogs. And some stunning ones. I have see some pups that will retieve to hand with just the littlest bit of yard work. A pups that need daily work to get the think back, and even dogs that stand there and watch it and look confused. I don't imply that there are not good dogs still. Just that there are a whole mixed bag of dogs and the tests and training can hide what they are. It's harder to find what you want.

Any day on any bird is time well spent. Good dog work is just that.......

CM

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:43 am

Sorry, but this whole thread is based on a premise that is false - a statement made by a "German" dog fan, and made, as is so often the case, with the intention of running down the "modern" GSP.

I saw the GSP's of thiry and forty years ago. I saw them in large numbers, in the thousands of dogs every year, and I saw them both in versatile dog venues, and in field trial venues. And I had the pleasure of hunting over a great many of them. The "old" dog was hard to train, stubborn, didn't particularly like to point, and it took a ton of pressure to make them broke. They had a ton of instinct, but getting them to use it correctly was a hard, hard job. Trainers wore gloves, they had to, and not to keep their hands clean. You couldn't take it personally if a dog tried to take a chunk out of you, not if you were a GSP trainer of the day. Keith Severin, in an article in the American Field in 1970, said,: Shorthairs in the past, were known as bird finders par excellence, but were heavily criticized - and justly so - for lacking style, stamina and the general ability to cover ground." The article went on to talk about how frequently Shooting Dog (not All Age) Championships had to be withheld, because dogs did not have the stamina to run for an hour, and those that did either couldn't find birds or were not steady. I saw these dogs not only in field trials, but in a great many hunting trips for quail, sharptail, pheasant, ruffed grouse.

The dogs of today are different entirely. They have run, stamina, they are natural bird finders, and they are easy to train and break - more interested in learning than taking a chunk out of a handler or another dog. They retrieve, they like the water, they will trail when needed. As Bigshooter pointed out, the litter that Spot is out of produced 100% hunted dogs, including Spot. Everyone of them is owned by a hunter with a family. Some of the litter have been trained, others just do it on what they were born with. They were fast developers, pointing and backing as soon as they could walk, and all with a ton of style. All of them are retrievers, I have one that has done quarter mile tracking retrieves on birds she did not see fall, she was somewhere else. The modern dog is light years improved from that "old" dog.

There are several thousand GSP's registered each year. I am sure among that number there are some of the type that were referred to in the statement this thread was based on. I still see the occasional show GSP for example, they are detectable immediately by their ungainly structure, poor gait, and they are often slow to develop hunting instincts. Their families love them though. I also see backyard bred dogs that should never have happenned. And I see some trialers who, in my own opinion, are so stuck on the "10 and 2" to the front rule of thumb that the dogs spend their time running, and then the handlers wonder why they made not finds. Mine make finds.

But I am really impressed with the modern dog. I didn't trial at all for about ten years in the 80's and early 90's, but I hunted alot, and continued to buy my dogs from modern field trial stock. They have never disappointed. Then I look at what is in the bag at the end of a day of our hunting, and read all the propaganda out here by "Internet experts" on dogs, and just chuckle.

The question I have always pondered, is what made those "old" dogs so bad?????? They had alot of good instincts, but way too many of them were just hardheaded, downright mean, and flaky - you couldn't trust them from one moment to the next. And why on earth would anyone choose to willingly breed for and preserve traits like that in a bird dog?

dudleysmith · Post by **dudleysmith** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:46 am

snips wrote:I am a believer that good parents help in producing good pups, but I also believe the more you stack a pedigree with good producers way back, 6-10 generations, then the better overall results you will get. Just looking at a 4 generation pedigree does not tell the whole story IMO.

Brenda is a person that knows how to breed dogs. the i am going to breed this dog cause he is a good hunting dog to this dog that is a good hunting dog will not produce better animals everytime, lots of times it goes 3 steps back.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:33 am

John,

An old timer trainer friend of mine "hates" German shorthairs because of the things you describe. I have really not seen this in the breed, but you could transpose alot of that onto my wirehair. It is an intresting view. And I have always wondered why he's so adament that the breed is no good. Guess that is informative to me personally anyway, and I enjoyed your veiwpoint. I can say willingness to learn and gentle friendly nature is EXTREMELY important to me and if I had to wear gloves to handle my own dog - well, I just wouldn't. Just for rope burn anyway

There is just so much to know, and so many folks not asking the questions. I know I didn't ask near the questions I do now, when I first got interested in hunting dogs. Love this forum for that, there are so many opinions and folks with experience from different venues and perspectives. Helps me out anyway. Even if somebody's experience is a complete 180 from someone else's both sides tell a lot together.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:32 pm

Wagonmaster wrote:Sorry, but this whole thread is based on a premise that is false - a statement made by a "German" dog fan, and made, as is so often the case, with the intention of running down the "modern" GSP.

I saw the GSP's of thiry and forty years ago. I saw them in large numbers, in the thousands of dogs every year, and I saw them both in versatile dog venues, and in field trial venues. And I had the pleasure of hunting over a great many of them. The "old" dog was hard to train, stubborn, didn't particularly like to point, and it took a ton of pressure to make them broke. They had a ton of instinct, but getting them to use it correctly was a hard, hard job. Trainers wore gloves, they had to, and not to keep their hands clean. You couldn't take it personally if a dog tried to take a chunk out of you, not if you were a GSP trainer of the day. Keith Severin, in an article in the American Field in 1970, said,: Shorthairs in the past, were known as bird finders par excellence, but were heavily criticized - and justly so - for lacking style, stamina and the general ability to cover ground." The article went on to talk about how frequently Shooting Dog (not All Age) Championships had to be withheld, because dogs did not have the stamina to run for an hour, and those that did either couldn't find birds or were not steady. I saw these dogs not only in field trials, but in a great many hunting trips for quail, sharptail, pheasant, ruffed grouse.

The dogs of today are different entirely. They have run, stamina, they are natural bird finders, and they are easy to train and break - more interested in learning than taking a chunk out of a handler or another dog. They retrieve, they like the water, they will trail when needed. As Bigshooter pointed out, the litter that Spot is out of produced 100% hunted dogs, including Spot. Everyone of them is owned by a hunter with a family. Some of the litter have been trained, others just do it on what they were born with. They were fast developers, pointing and backing as soon as they could walk, and all with a ton of style. All of them are retrievers, I have one that has done quarter mile tracking retrieves on birds she did not see fall, she was somewhere else. The modern dog is light years improved from that "old" dog.

There are several thousand GSP's registered each year. I am sure among that number there are some of the type that were referred to in the statement this thread was based on. I still see the occasional show GSP for example, they are detectable immediately by their ungainly structure, poor gait, and they are often slow to develop hunting instincts. Their families love them though. I also see backyard bred dogs that should never have happenned. And I see some trialers who, in my own opinion, are so stuck on the "10 and 2" to the front rule of thumb that the dogs spend their time running, and then the handlers wonder why they made not finds. Mine make finds.

But I am really impressed with the modern dog. I didn't trial at all for about ten years in the 80's and early 90's, but I hunted alot, and continued to buy my dogs from modern field trial stock. They have never disappointed. Then I look at what is in the bag at the end of a day of our hunting, and read all the propaganda out here by "Internet experts" on dogs, and just chuckle.

The question I have always pondered, is what made those "old" dogs so bad?????? They had alot of good instincts, but way too many of them were just hardheaded, downright mean, and flaky - you couldn't trust them from one moment to the next. And why on earth would anyone choose to willingly breed for and preserve traits like that in a bird dog?

I started the thread to further discuss an idea brought about in another thread, I will defer to your experience as I am well aware you have much more knowledge of the breed present and past than I do. I have never owned a DK or even a dog heavily influenced by german breeding, I have owned weims, a real nice vizlsa, britts, labs, and a couple of pointers. I have yet to run down the "modern" dogs as they are what I prefer, but that doesn't make them perfect, further I am sure your dogs do not fit in the category I am talking about, otherwise I don't think you would have been so successful with them.

So you say my premise is false, you're correct I cannot prove that it is true, but you cannot prove that it is false. For every natural trainable whiz you show me I can show you a hard headed, sorry retrieving, and overly independent sack.

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:02 pm

Once again it is all about perception and spin, and a generality post will entertain us all here for sure.

I have been very fortunate to hunt behing some outstanding GSPs in the US. I never asked if they were German. I have also seen the true Deutsch Kurzhaar and DD run in Europe back when there was a FRG. I do think there is a wiring difference between them, and I will pass on whether that is biddability or natural ability when comparing them.........

I think this post started out about solid breedings and natural ability. The Germans will get the nod there every time from me from a planning - dedication - control - size / scope perspective.

I am not saying they are better, but I clearly know which lines I would rather chase birds with in NODAK.

As far as some of the American blood that I have seen, I don't think many will argue that there can be a claim to some EP blood in some of them........

CM

limited out · Post by **limited out** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:13 pm

dudleysmith wrote:
snips wrote:I am a believer that good parents help in producing good pups, but I also believe the more you stack a pedigree with good producers way back, 6-10 generations, then the better overall results you will get. Just looking at a 4 generation pedigree does not tell the whole story IMO.

Brenda is a person that knows how to breed dogs. the i am going to breed this dog cause he is a good hunting dog to this dog that is a good hunting dog will not produce better animals everytime, lots of times it goes 3 steps back.

I'd agree with you there. I think we both "took sides" on this one, or slteast I did. When in reality, why can't you have Great Grandaprents, & Great Sire & Dam. Any solid dog has atleast a few generations of nice dogs, not just one breeding pair.

Ridge-Point · Post by **Ridge-Point** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:15 pm

I believe that a dog can have all the natural ability in the world and it can be overshadowed by prey drive or temperment. Just because a dog is natural doesn't mean they will end up being a better bird dog in the end, it just depends on what you are looking for.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:34 pm

Well, I for one am not sold on the German stuff. I had one (out of quite a few) in here to train that was an Import. I had to literally teach the dog to point (too much prey drive), I had to FF the dog, plus it was tough to train on everything. I tried to send the dog home a couple of times. But he wanted it ready to hunt. I know there are nice ones, I have not seen them, the other ones I have had are low headed, have little range, and the emphasis seems to be more on prey drive than pointing. Everyone I have had is nasty in the kennel too, just bounce off the walls. I will stick to our American Shorthairs

dudleysmith · Post by **dudleysmith** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:41 pm

the thing i LOVE the most about these German import dogs are these people are paying big big money for them, when they could get better here in America for alot less money.