Natural Honor

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:46 pm

Another topic for discussion, my father and I were discussing natural ability the other night and he made a point that might be interesting to discuss, it seems that backing is the hardest trait to get naturally, and if you have a dog that backs natural or one that throws natural backing the other traits we are looking for a in bird dog seem to come along with it?

Any thoughts? Seems like this might hold true in all pointing breeds?

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT POSTING THIS AS FACT, FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY.

Southwind · Post by **Southwind** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:34 pm

I had a pointer pup out of NC Shadow's Attitude X a daughter of Elhew Cruisin On. He had a completely natural back, even before being whoa broke would stand and honor until flush. He held point nicely as a pup, but would not retrieve a lick on his own until he was force broke. Otherwise, one of the most natural pups I have seen.

Dirtysteve · Post by **Dirtysteve** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:35 pm

All natural

And yes he has all the traits I want in a dog.
Most all my dogs have been very natural backers requiring only a little tune up to be 100 %. The picture of my Tuck dog above is the exception. He was backing from the 1st day he saw another dog on point. Never had to do a thing.

the other traits we are looking for a in bird dog seem to come along with it?

I guess the real question is, are the traits I want in a dog the same as you want?

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:37 pm

My male GSP honored at five months and has allways honored, he through it in his pups ,
more in the males than the females; same litter. Don't really understand that.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:44 pm

My 5 yr old male backed as a pup, the 3 yr old female started when she was two and their yr old pup has been backing for 3 or 4 months. Experience seems to make them better but the older two will stand forever now if the pointing dog doesn't move and the pup is getting pretty reliable too.

Ezzy

jt807 · Post by **jt807** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:56 pm

So dogs point when there is a bird they smell, or a bird they see. Is the natural back also because they learn when another dog is pointing, there is a bird there? Stop to flush also?

Ridge-Point · Post by **Ridge-Point** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:22 pm

jt807 wrote:So dogs point when there is a bird they smell, or a bird they see. Is the natural back also because they learn when another dog is pointing, there is a bird there? Stop to flush also?

Backing is instinctive. The dog doesn't need to smell a bird, he just needs to see another dog on point. They will learn pretty quick that another dog on point means birds, and they usually style up really nice once they figure that out.

Will · Post by **Will** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:00 pm

My last pup learned to back when he busted a rooster that was being pointed by his mature partner when he decided it was playtime rather than hunt time. This was at about 8mo of age. This noted a definate change in him....from that day he backed as far as the eye could see...and he became much more cautious on his birds.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:07 pm

So is it one of the harder traits to get consistantly? If a backs naturally do they usually have a lot of natural ability in other areas?

Will · Post by **Will** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:11 pm

I'm guessing that would depend on the consistency within the breedings. My "self taught" backer would also retrieve through a flaming brick wall....he had to be force broke though because he wanted to play keep away with the bird.

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:44 pm

Backing? What's that? jk

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:01 pm

REREAD THE POST: ACooper Wrote:

it seems that backing is the hardest trait to get naturally, and if you have a dog that backs natural or one that throws natural backing the other traits we are looking for a in bird dog seem to come along with

No I don't see or believe that natural backing has Anything to do with the other traits looked for in a Good dog.

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:45 pm

My GSP has all the other trait's also, retrieving, pointing, backing, plenty of prey drive
all natural.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:51 pm

IME, (this is a generality, individual mileage will vary!) dogs with a very natural back tend to also be a little more passive...or maybe stated differently, I've noticed that dominant, bold, hard charging aggressive hunting dogs seem less inclined to hit the skids when they see another dog standing around. It's very easy to have a naturally backing dog settle into the comfortable position of being the backing dog if that makes sense (i.e. they like to run around and look for the other dog on point) and it can be hard to get the hard charger dominant dog to want to back (i.e. they'll avoid the other dog on point or charge right thru and point themselves). Done right, the hard charger can be taught to have a stylish, intense back...much harder to teach the passive nicely backing dog to out hunt the hard charger. I wouldn't say a great natural back indicates other great natural ability either. Again these are generalities - we can all give examples of the dog that's got it all!!

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:16 pm

Doc prior to this thread I have never thought of a dog with more natural back being more "passive" but you are the second person who has said that the other was in an email and I respect both of your opinions very much. It just really isnt something I ever thought of but now it does seem to make sense with some dogs.

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:56 pm

Doc favor,

I think you are correct. I never thought about it in such a way, but it does make a lot of sense. I am sure there is someone that will say that they have a "hard chargin', brush bustin' sob that honored like a champ", but I think that what you said has great value to it. It makes perfect sense, I know I am a Scorpio and a bit stubborn myself and when people ask me to do something I don't want to do I walk around and pretend like I didn't notice them either.

What I don't understand is why a dog would naturally back most of its life, understand the concept, and when you feel all confident and want to show em' off to your buddy, they bust right through and flush the bird and wallow around on the ground because they know they can twing that right nerve just to piss you off!!!

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:07 pm

meller wrote:

My GSP has all the other trait's also, retrieving, pointing, backing, plenty of prey drive
all natural.

Some do some Don't

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:27 pm

While there are certainly dogs that back out of a lack of confidence, in my experience the youngsters that show natural honor along with lots of drive and desire are the ones to keep an eye on. I have found the hard chargers with an immense amount of natural point will honor naturally, as honoring is IMO an extension of the pointing instinct. Hard chargers with an average amount of natural point will often need to be shown how to back, and will often turn into good backing dogs. The most competitive ones won't back at all; you can make them do it but left on their own they'd rather blow out than back. While I've never seen a submissive dog that can't be taught to back, but I have seen a number of dominant dogs that can't.

IMO the young dogs that show you lots of early natural point and staunchness, along with an early natural instinct to honor, will ultimately be the easiest to train and the easiest to keep trained. As youngsters, they do not look as impressive as their "fire-breathing'" counterparts, but ultimately they will end up the better birddog and the more consistent trial dog as well. The ones that don't beat themselves over the long term do more winning than the ones that live so close to the edge that they routinely fall over it.

JMO,
Dave

dudleysmith · Post by **dudleysmith** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:31 pm

DGFavor wrote:IME, (this is a generality, individual mileage will vary!) dogs with a very natural back tend to also be a little more passive...or maybe stated differently, I've noticed that dominant, bold, hard charging aggressive hunting dogs seem less inclined to hit the skids when they see another dog standing around. It's very easy to have a naturally backing dog settle into the comfortable position of being the backing dog if that makes sense (i.e. they like to run around and look for the other dog on point) and it can be hard to get the hard charger dominant dog to want to back (i.e. they'll avoid the other dog on point or charge right thru and point themselves). Done right, the hard charger can be taught to have a stylish, intense back...much harder to teach the passive nicely backing dog to out hunt the hard charger. I wouldn't say a great natural back indicates other great natural ability either. Again these are generalities - we can all give examples of the dog that's got it all!!

i have witnessed the very same thing.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:07 pm

GsPJustin wrote: What I don't understand is why a dog would naturally back most of its life, understand the concept, and when you feel all confident and want to show em' off to your buddy, they bust right through and flush the bird and wallow around on the ground because they know they can twing that right nerve just to piss you off!!!

The biggest burden a dog will carry is its owners ego. ha

coryf · Post by **coryf** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:54 am

I bred a litter that had alot of natural back right out of the whelping box. In fact I killed a couple wild roosters over point/back at 5 months of age. I agree the natural back seems to come in the order of dominance. For instance I kept the alpha male of the litter and a female from the middle of the "pack". He will back his mother but rarely will back his sister. His sister will back him and her mother every single time. However, I don't think it will take extensive training to get the male backing. He has been backing a silouette. These pups also seem to have alot of natural ability in their staunchness, retrieve, search and track. I got into this line and breed because I was dissatisfied with the lack of point in the previous dog/breed I had. I have been pretty pleased so far. Cory

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:11 am

DGFavor wrote:Done right, the hard charger can be taught to have a stylish, intense back...much harder to teach the passive nicely backing dog to out hunt the hard charger.

I would tend to agree here as well. I have a setter that is a natural backer, was VERY easy to get her to stand her birds, natural retriever, very biddable as well, yet a bit "passive" when it comes to correction. She does not like a loud voice or the e-collar. The less you say to her the better. That being said, we were just noticing her different runs and it came to mind that she does not have that hard driving competitive run. If she is braced with a short, slow working dog, she will get out to the front and stay there. If there is a hard front running dog, she will tend to shorten up and work behind it. Whenever she sees a dog on point...back!

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:30 am

IMO ITS hard to teach a dog to find birds,but you can teach them to back. Ill take the high flying charging bird finder any day.I have seen some dogs that ran around looking for a dog just to back!!!!

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:21 am

myerstenn wrote:IMO ITS hard to teach a dog to find birds,but you can teach them to back. Ill take the high flying charging bird finder any day.I have seen some dogs that ran around looking for a dog just to back!!!!

You assume the high flying dog is a bird finder; and not just running to run. Doesn't always work out that way.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:02 am

Then again, there are some dogs that rarely have occasion to back another dog because they consistently get to the bird first.

Those dogs "naturally" don't need to back very often.

Now that should stir the pot! HA!

In all honesty, backing is not in the front of the mind of the truly competitive dog. Getting to the bird fist is what is up front in that kind of dog's mind, I think.

BTW, being a highly competitive dog has nothing to do with formal competition, but has to do with the amount of fire and desire in the dog themselves.

RayG

honeyrun · Post by **honeyrun** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:28 am

A dog that has a VERY strong pointing instinct from the getgo will either be a natural backer or be extremely easy to teach the back. Backing is pointing instinct, they are just pointing another dog as they would a bird. Many dogs, once they realize what a dog on point is pointing, they will back.

I feel that is why so often as a judge, I hear the handlers say, "How do expect my dog to back that? It is flagging and has no intensity." I would also have to question the "pointing" on that dog also, especially if I didn't know that was a bird there. Dogs assess an upcoming situation by sight and if that visual picture doesn't look like the real deal, most likely most dogs will just continue doing their own thing thinking that the dog just stopped to take a break.

And before anyone asks, yes, I do take that into consideration when I am judging. I have been known to call a dog back for an honor when their bracemate has not presented a good solid/staunch point for an honor during their brace.

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:24 am

myerstenn wrote:You assume the high flying dog is a bird finder; and not just running to run. Doesn't always work out that way

Dave, I believe I said, a high flying bird finder. I understand the difference. You cant win many placements on just a back.

markj · Post by **markj** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:40 am

The really cool thing is 4 shorthairs all on point kinda lined up. Once had the 4 on a bird, they surrounded him he had one place to go, straight up

he tasted good too.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:57 am

myerstenn wrote:
myerstenn wrote:You assume the high flying dog is a bird finder; and not just running to run. Doesn't always work out that way
Dave, I believe I said, a high flying bird finder. I understand the difference. You cant win many placements on just a back.

I don't think the majority of the people are worrying about a placement but rather are looking for a complete well mannered hunting dog. Where we hunt 3 or 4 dogs together we need them to honor and not fight over a retrieve. But I agree with your point but I do not think it is an either/or situation. The agressive dog is probably less likely to honor without any training but there are a lot that will and those are the good ones. But agressive doesn't mean run or range, those are diferent qualities.

Ezzy

NWCORNER · Post by **NWCORNER** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:08 am

DGFavor wrote:IME, (this is a generality, individual mileage will vary!) dogs with a very natural back tend to also be a little more passive...or maybe stated differently, I've noticed that dominant, bold, hard charging aggressive hunting dogs seem less inclined to hit the skids when they see another dog standing around. It's very easy to have a naturally backing dog settle into the comfortable position of being the backing dog if that makes sense (i.e. they like to run around and look for the other dog on point) and it can be hard to get the hard charger dominant dog to want to back (i.e. they'll avoid the other dog on point or charge right thru and point themselves). Done right, the hard charger can be taught to have a stylish, intense back...much harder to teach the passive nicely backing dog to out hunt the hard charger. I wouldn't say a great natural back indicates other great natural ability either. Again these are generalities - we can all give examples of the dog that's got it all!!

Interesting point. When my guy was just a little guy he was backing fool. When he got older and started finding birds he would reluctantly honor and then not honor at all, just keep on hunting. He is much better now but it took some work. It makes sense, he likes to be to the front and wants his nose full of scent. He was extremely submissive as a pup and now he thinks he's the big dog. Overall I think the above theory is true for my dog and I would have never seen it that way.

coryf · Post by **coryf** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:31 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
I don't think the majority of the people are worrying about a placement but rather are looking for a complete well mannered hunting dog.

EXACTLY! And a more methodical bracemate WILL find birds the more aggressive dog ran past!

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:50 pm

ezzy, with all do respect, I dont believe my comments were about an agressive dog. It was my preferrence to prefer a strong bird finder over a dog that has strong backing instincts. I believe you can teach any dog to back but if they cant find birds their not worth keeping. I also believe that that type of dog best suits the ardent hunter. If you dont have something that finds game and points it you dont need a backing dog. Just my opinion

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:05 pm

My older GSP female just turned seven this month. She is a natural. She has been hunting every fall since six months of age. She has been on the ground in ND with other dogs many times. She has never backed another pointing dog nor busted another dog's point. She is competitive and will always move to the front if another dog is near her. Most of all she is just a bird finding machine, intent on working her own piece of cover.

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:23 pm

Is Methodical the politically correct way of saying a dog is "range challenged"?

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:37 pm

R-Heaton wrote:Is Methodical the politically correct way of saying a dog is "range challenged"?

I don't know. I've never owned a range challenged dog .. but since when did you become "politically correct"?

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:02 pm

coryf wrote:EXACTLY! And a more methodical bracemate WILL find birds the more aggressive dog ran past

It was nearly an observation of a fellow poster,,,, Yea guess ya don't have to worry about me running for office anytime soon.

But I have always like to call the dog that doesn't go anywhere,,,, "gentlemen gun dogs",,,, gotta nice classy ring to it,,, doesn't?

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:26 pm

R-Heaton wrote:
But I have always like to call the dog that doesn't go anywhere,,,, "gentlemen gun dogs",,,, gotta nice classy ring to it,,, doesn't?

You may not always be politically correct but you definitely can turn a phrase when you want to!

I've never had a gundog (gentlemen's or not) find a bird in cover one of our hard chargers has been through so I am unable to verify the validity of the gentleman's statement about methodical dogs. Sounds more like a good nose vs bad nose issue to me.

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:40 pm

My dog has always ran to the front and has always backed natural when needed. Always
found his share of birds, a little hard headed but handles great, And with the ease he does it with I consider him a gentelmans dog

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:26 pm

BigShooter wrote:
R-Heaton wrote:
But I have always like to call the dog that doesn't go anywhere,,,, "gentlemen gun dogs",,,, gotta nice classy ring to it,,, doesn't?
You may not always be politically correct but you definitely can turn a phrase when you want to!

I've never had a gundog (gentlemen's or not) find a bird in cover one of our hard chargers has been through so I am unable to verify the validity of the gentleman's statement about methodical dogs. Sounds more like a good nose vs bad nose issue to me.

A lucky man you must be if you have never had a dog come in behind yours and find a bird that yours missed.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:38 pm

ACooper wrote:
I've never had a gundog (gentlemen's or not) find a bird in cover one of our hard chargers has been through so I am unable to verify the validity of the gentleman's statement about methodical dogs. Sounds more like a good nose vs bad nose issue to me.

A lucky man you must be if you have never had a dog come in behind yours and find a bird that yours missed.

Lucky ... probably. Blessed with great dogs - for sure. The right circumstances most likely. Our dogs are from trial stock but only the NC littermate has been trialed. So as I mentioned before I'm talking about hunting situations only. For the past seven years we have mainly hunted pheasants and sharps, with a few coveys of huns sprinkled in, rarely grouse. The GSPs are littermates. Usually two on the ground at the same time, rarely three, each one hunting for it's own master. All are intense, very independent and even though in the same field they generally stay clear of one another so there is a lower likelihood one of the dogs would cover ground another dog has been through, although it can & does happen. The Weim is another story, not a good representative of the breed. He's very large, methodical, good nose, rarely ranges more than 30 yards from his owner. I've never seen him point a bird a gsp missed either.

Then of course if it ever has happened ... selective memory would come in very handy!

kylenicholas02 · Post by **kylenicholas02** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:48 pm

My Phillips pup honored at 25 yds even before being WHOA broke

Birdman250 · Post by **Birdman250** » Fri May 01, 2009 7:59 pm

my "shadow's attitude x on the move" dog always love to honor..he has been honoring since he was a pup. never taught him how to. he also honors me when i stand still and raise my hands in the air...he even honors a horse that is not moving.....there was an incident where he actually came running in and knocked over several corn stalks to honor the other dog who was hidden between the rows of corn. that was exciting!!

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Fri May 01, 2009 10:28 pm

R-Heaton wrote:Is Methodical the politically correct way of saying a dog is "range challenged"?

Can you be politically correct when saying "range challenged"? IMO a dog that ranges to far for your scenario is just as "range challenged" as the one who doesn't range far enough.

HA! Didn't see that one coming did you?!?!

live4point · Post by **live4point** » Sat May 02, 2009 10:16 am

When I saw the subject of this thread,it made me smile thinking of a pointer I had years ago.Anytime I hunted the pointer beside a cow pasture,I would get to see him honor.You know how cows will stand and stare at you,well being on the other side of the fence,it looked to my pointer that they were pointing on the fence row,he would honor the cows as if they were on point.I always got a laugh out of that. Also had a young first year setter that I was getting kind of aggravated with for not honoring.It just so happened that the only dogs I had been hunting him with were britts and gsp's.,and he wasn't honoring them.One day I hunted him with a guys pointer,he saw that high tail on point and honored him.After that he honored long and short tailed dogs,guess he needed to see a hi tail on point to make it click in his brain. I have also seen dogs that would honor from a distance anything colored white,be it a sign on a fence,a white trash bag or whatever.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Sat May 02, 2009 2:41 pm

live4point wrote:I have also seen dogs that would honor from a distance anything colored white,be it a sign on a fence,a white trash bag or whatever.

We had a discussion on here about the plastic baggie thing a year or so back and it was determined that for the ultimate style on an honor, a Victoria's Secret bag was required.

As for the honor towing the boat for the rest of the abilities.... Dogs gotta have "the point" before they can ever truly honor. Of course you can just Whoa them into a standing position.
I'll take the dog that is bold, confident, full of fire and brimstone and wants to get that scent in THEIR nose.... and I don't mean the scent of the other dogs @$$.