Do You Believe The AKC GSP Standards Are Flawed??

[bondoron]

The Germans did allow some AKC breeding for a very short period. Look at Donko's ped. FC G-T Heidi and go back on her pedigree.

Actually the Germans allowed NADKC and only the NADKC to bring in a little "American" blood. The reason being was they did not have the pool of dogs to work with in the states. They set certain standards that those dogs had to abide to. I can't remember what they all were now though.

[Dave Quindt]

The Germans did allow some AKC breeding for a very short period. Look at Donko's ped. FC G-T Heidi and go back on her pedigree.

Actually the Germans allowed NADKC and only the NADKC to bring in a little "American" blood. The reason being was they did not have the pool of dogs to work with in the states. They set certain standards that those dogs had to abide to. I can't remember what they all were now though.

Except there were FCI dogs in the states, including dogs approved for breeding by the DKV. Hundreds of DKs were imported in the US from end of WWII through the formation of the NADKC. There were plenty of dogs, whelped in Germany and imported to the US and Canada that could have been used. There were KS-titled dogs in the US. There could have been a drive in Germany to send DK pups, and/or pregnant DK females, to the US to provide a starting point. Furthermore, if the goal was to grow the gene pool, there were lots of NAVHDA UT and VC dogs that could have been used, as they had at least been tested in a format somewhat consistent to the goals and methods of the DKV. Some of those dogs were only 1-2 generations removed from DKV-approved dogs. There were dogs with tracking titles and conformation titles available. At least you would have expected them to have used dogs with OFA certifications!

So why was it done in the way it was done? Because of the people involved and the fact that it wasn't a big deal in Germany to allow untested dogs in the stud book. This whole notion that a DK must have a pedigree that contains only tested dogs approved for breeding seems to be more in line with the American DK club that the German DK club itself. Many DKV members, including a former DKV President, have stated that they believe that if any pedigree GSP was to pass the qualifications for breeding as was to be bred to an approved DK, that the offspring would be full DKs. That was the method the WKV was to use to bring in new dogs from other countries around the world that didn't have a breedable population of DKs.

There is a certain amount (ok, a huge amount) of irony that when the DK club got started here in the US and decided to go out of stud book, that they completely abandoned their breeding standards. Even more ironic is that the DKV welcomed with open arms dogs from 100% pure American FT lines, the same lines that most (not all, but most) NADKC supporters feel have ruined the GSP in the US.

FWIW,
Dave

[briarpatch]

Are there any DK's competing and doing well in FT's? I am just asking, but haven't seen or heard alot of them competing at that level. The american system has plenty of flaws, but the CH, FC, and DC's where the best dogs on those days, not just meeting standard. Maybe the German standards of breeding and testing should be mixed with the American system of competing for the future breed.

http://home.flash.net/~hainholz/
Hainholz has been importing direct German DKs since the 70s and running them in FTs and doing well in them, I do not know if they still do this, the last dog they have listed on the above site is a direct DK import DC AFC Bodo Vom Waldrand MH (Blitz) imported in the early 90s , But they have had several FC and a couple DC's that were direct imports ..Ybold was the other DC in the 70s

The DK guys can correct me if I am wrong on this , but I believe most DK's are not bred to be the long range runners that would perform well in Field Trials I believe most are bred to be short to mid range running dogs for the foot hunter, but Hainholz obviously found several DK's that were bred to perform well in FT's..
Again please feel free to correct me if I am wrong on that statement.....

[Ridge-Point]

The DK guys can correct me if I am wrong on this , but I believe most DK's are not bred to be the long range runners that would perform well in Field Trials I believe most are bred to be short to mid range running dogs for the foot hunter, but Hainholz obviously found several DK's that were bred to perform well in FT's..
Again please feel free to correct me if I am wrong on that statement.....

I have a DK that runs pretty big in the chukar hills. The DK's I have worked with have a huge amount of prey drive. Most people buying DK's probably are not trying to develop the range of thier dogs the same way Trialers do. Alot of people don't realize that an AKC Gundog doesn't really run that big. I would say most dogs with alot of bird desire would easily run that big if they were allowed to do so.

[honeyrun]

The DK guys can correct me if I am wrong on this , but I believe most DK's are not bred to be the long range runners that would perform well in Field Trials I believe most are bred to be short to mid range running dogs for the foot hunter, but Hainholz obviously found several DK's that were bred to perform well in FT's..

Wish someone would tell my DK girls that they are not suppose to run BIG. I had to shorten both up considerably for the PA mountain grouse woods.

[briarpatch]

The DK guys can correct me if I am wrong on this

I Knew there would be a few to
quickly correct me
But I surely couldnt see my Belle ( which comes from direct untested imports so some say is not a true DK but) running in a FT and doing well.. and most of the DK breeders I talked to before purchasing her from america and germany at least stated they breed for closer ranging foot hunting dogs many even have this clearly written on their websites..But I am sure there are breeders in Germany as there is in America who hunt different styles and areas and animals and breed dogs to excell at their main type of hunting and or area of hunting they normally do or are in..
As a someone pointed out earlier in a post in this thread (believe it was a DK guy)

I did find out there are certain German lines that are better on fur and some better on feathers.

Also

honeyrun on Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:36 am

Wish someone would tell my DK girls that they are not suppose to run BIG. I had to shorten both up considerably for the PA mountain grouse woods.

I see one of them is already a show champ, my suggestion, you should enter her in the Field Trials and get her DC Big running Gal like that should do well..
she would then be in recorded in American GSP history as one of the greats (at least in many's eyes) and one of the very few direct imports to ever win that particular coveted title...


anyway we have gotten abit off topic once again
perhaps this would better discussed in a thread about DK's and GSPs or American and German dogs

[ACooper]

I believe that range can be developed to an extent, many people who want german dogs also want close working dogs, and the dogs are developed toward making a close working dog. This can be done with any line of dog, some will take more effort to shorten up than others.

[BigShooter]

anyway we have gotten abit off topic once again
perhaps this would better discussed in a thread about DK's and GSPs or American and German dogs

Here are nine pages on just that subject unless of course you want to discuss it again for the umpteenth time: http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... highlight=

[markj]

Way back in the early 70s when I first got into GSPs, my Dad told me they would run to the next county in search of game so I had to either run with em or put em in a field with a lot of birds in it or they would run to find them. I do not think a big running dog is exclusive to American breeding, but is in most if not all GSPs or DKs whichever you call them. My German relatives think the separation we have here is very humorous. They say DK is German Shorthair D = German, K = Shorthair in the literal translation. My cousins were over there for Christmas but couldnt bring me a pup, not enough planning. My wife was born there and her Mom is from East berlin. Americans have this need to have something special, something nobody else has but that is OK too.

Can you provide some examples of the dogs that have raised these rumors?
I have yet to hear a name from everyone of the pointer guys I know that preach this..........

If you havent heard any rumors about this then you may need to expand your circle. Some guys will do anything to win, even breed pointers into their lines to compete with them pointers. Why do FTs like the all white dog with a liver head? Stands out in the field better in the hope a judge will see it better maybe?

As I said before, I like the DC type of dog or the KS type of dog, both show conformation and field ability. Not just one over the other.

[BigShooter]

If you havent heard any rumors about this then you may need to expand your circle. Some guys will do anything to win, even breed pointers into their lines to compete with them pointers. Why do FTs like the all white dog with a liver head? Stands out in the field better in the hope a judge will see it better maybe?

MJ,

As you well know there was white in the GSPs long before they came to the States, especially in the Moesgaard dogs from Denmark. My point is not to dispel the rumor that pointers weren't bred into the GSPs here in the States but only to point out that all of the white FT dogs weren't created solely by US breeders outcrossing with pointers .

[markj]

MJ,

As you well know there was white in the GSPs long before they came to the States, especially in the Moesgaard dogs from Denmark. My point is not to dispel the rumor that pointers weren't bred into the GSPs here in the States but only to point out that all of the white FT dogs weren't created solely by US breeders outcrossing with pointers .

I agree 100% there, not all white dogs are cross. Used to be a guy had import semen from Denmark lived in Basset Nebr. Was a costly thing to buy from him tho, his pups cost a lot too if I recall. Danes like the white for the same reasons, easy to see them in tall grass. My side of the family is Danish, havent seen any dogs from there here tho. Used to see imports years ago. Not for awhile tho. Those are FCI reg dogs too

[ACooper]

Outside of the alleged dishonesty part of it, does it matter if pointer was added 100 years ago or 20 years ago? It is there now it was in there back then. What is the difference?

[markj]

Outside of the alleged dishonesty part of it, does it matter if pointer was added 100 years ago or 20 years ago? It is there now it was in there back then. What is the difference?

I just like them roan or heavy ticked dogs, other than than I cant tell if there is a real difference. I have dogs out of FT lines now, they hunt hard but need a bit more training on the fetch and whoa part than the dogs I had past years. Some are a bit more stubborn and hard headed too. So for some it may not be a big deal, for some it surely is. Like the Clown blood, some dont want it in the ped at all even tho he was a 3x NFT champ and a very hard hunting dog that has sired a bunch of champs both FT and Show CH. I had 2 males out of a dog was sired by Gen Norman, sire and dam were out of him, they were very easy to train and got on birds at an early age just fine.

[BigShooter]

Outside of the alleged dishonesty part of it, does it matter if pointer was added 100 years ago or 20 years ago? It is there now it was in there back then. What is the difference?

Yup,

A lot was added to create the breed in Germany. So the only issue to stir up seems to be the issue of whether it was added in the States and DNA tests are certainly going to reduce these possibilities now and in the future. You know we had a foreign poster on one of these threads a year or so ago that said if you think Americans are the only ones that over the course of time ever slid in an outcross or cheated in some other way you're sorely mistaken. I tend to believe him.

[Flush]

Wish someone would tell my DK girls that they are not suppose to run BIG. I had to shorten both up considerably for the PA mountain grouse woods.

I don't doubt that, but BIG range is all subjective. What one might consider big ranging for PA grouse woods might not fall into the "big running" category in the eyes of someone out west who pushes them hard off horses. I don't doubt there are a handful of big running DK dogs out there, but anyone who thinks that as a class the DKs are fast and big running dogs must not have much experience with the real mcCoy.

[honeyrun]

When they can run the midwest prairies with pointers on their home turf and find/point bird for bird, then, yes, I would call her big running. That was when she was under the age of 2, She is now 7 and has adjusted quite nicely to the grouse woods of PA, although she must wear a locator collar. We have her 3/4 sister that has wheels that will go further and longer. It is a shame that the DK's as a whole have a reputation of being big and clunky. Both my girls are under 24 inches and weigh 50 lbs or less. I guess, as with american stuff, it depends on the breeder and the bloodline. Both of my DK's came directly from germany.

Since all my hunting is done in the grouse woods of the Mid Atlantic and New England states, I desire a moderate ranged dog. If I get one that has bigger wheels, they tend to adjust accordingly. There are many of my dogs, however, that do hunt the praries of the midwest and the deserts of the southeast and do quite well. So again, it does depend on the breeder and the bloodline.

[rkalgren]

The judges are the ones that need to read & FOLLOW it.

Therein lies the true problem.

Amen to that

[bondoron]

Dave,
I have had this talk with you before as well as others. I realize we are on two different sides of this, so normally I would hold my breath. However there are new people that read info so I will just type a few of the things that have already been covered a few times.

Except there were FCI dogs in the states, including dogs approved for breeding by the DKV. Hundreds of DKs were imported in the US from end of WWII through the formation of the NADKC. There were plenty of dogs, whelped in Germany and imported to the US and Canada that could have been used. There were KS-titled dogs in the US. There could have been a drive in Germany to send DK pups, and/or pregnant DK females, to the US to provide a starting point. Furthermore, if the goal was to grow the gene pool, there were lots of NAVHDA UT and VC dogs that could have been used, as they had at least been tested in a format somewhat consistent to the goals and methods of the DKV. Some of those dogs were only 1-2 generations removed from DKV-approved dogs. There were dogs with tracking titles and conformation titles available. At least you would have expected them to have used dogs with OFA certifications!

How many DK's do you think there are in the states? There was what a couple hundred DK pups registered last year? Compared to how many thousand GSP pups? I don't know the exact numbers and don't have time to look them all up again. There are dogs that are imported every year. Do you really think that they should of imported a couple thousand real quick to get the numbers up so there would have been a bigger gene pool?

So why was it done in the way it was done? Because of the people involved and the fact that it wasn't a big deal in Germany to allow untested dogs in the stud book. This whole notion that a DK must have a pedigree that contains only tested dogs approved for breeding seems to be more in line with the American DK club that the German DK club itself. Many DKV members, including a former DKV President, have stated that they believe that if any pedigree GSP was to pass the qualifications for breeding as was to be bred to an approved DK, that the offspring would be full DKs. That was the method the WKV was to use to bring in new dogs from other countries around the world that didn't have a breedable population of DKs.

I guess I don't understand what you are getting at. The DKV requires DK's to be tested before being bred just as NADKC does. I will say that there are some in the states that are more hardcore than Europeans are. Which as I have said before I don't agree with. Some take it to a whole new level, and that is why DK's have only had limited success in the states IMO.

There is a certain amount (ok, a huge amount) of irony that when the DK club got started here in the US and decided to go out of stud book, that they completely abandoned their breeding standards. Even more ironic is that the DKV welcomed with open arms dogs from 100% pure American FT lines, the same lines that most (not all, but most) NADKC supporters feel have ruined the GSP in the US.

FWIW,
Dave

Like I said above Dave I agree some American DK people are over the top. Yes some do feel the FT dogs are ruining the breed. Some FT people feel DK's are worthless. You could put in NAVHDA, NSTRA, NADKC, GSPCA, etc... in any of these sentences. All the clubs have people that disagree with the way other clubs do things. That is the way it has always been and always will be.

[markj]

I belive he was mentioning the American lines that were brought to Germany to be bred into the DKV system there, not the other way around. All GSPs originally came from Germany A DR. in Montana was the first to do so I think.

So in the DKV breed book you will find American bred dogs used as stud. I also think they were reged AKC too.

[craigburns]

Not wanting to offend anyone but in my opinion and based on having seen it happen before...What will/is going to ruin the German Shorthair Pointer is show dog people breeding dogs that can't smell and don't hunt. Puppies being bred and sold by the thousands. Being that AKC is the lions share registry... the standards AKC and GSPCA has... should be and does guide the direction the breed is headed. Show dogs should have to be proven bird dogs and FT dogs should have to have proven conformation before receiving any accredidation as being represenitive of the breed. The intention of those who developed the breed did not intend for the breed to evolve into a breed to provide entertainment for someones "fancy". The German Shorthair Pointer is a hunting dog and was not developed to be pets and entertainment for show dog fanciers. Not saying that they can not be pets and can not be show dogs but, that they have to be bird dogs first and foremost. Otherwise it just a matter of time untill the German Shorthair Pointer will follow after the Irish Setter. I don't know if some of you folks remember the 60-70's Irish Setter popularity but they were totally ruined as top notch bird dogs by the show dog breeders and were turned into a pet breed by the puppy breeders.
Again this is just my opinion... but with the examples that we have from other hunting dog breeds that have been ruined as hunting dogs... AKC standards are without question flawed and without question the GSPCA approach to guiding the breed is needing a overhaul.
In this poll the bigest majority of those responding just say they don't care about it just so long as "their dog is a good one". Someday the good ones could be over run by the junk ones and then it will be a different story.
....this sort of profiteering, or whatever you choose to call it, has been going on in one breed or another for decades, perhaps centuries. In the 1930s ,when Rin-Tin-Tin movies were popular, the German Shepherd went through a surge in popularity and back yard breeding damaged the breed extensively. The next victim breed was the Cocker Spaniel through the 40s and was totally destroyed as hunting dogs. Of course the most famous exploitation was that of the Weimaraner in the 50s. Irish Setters in the 60s. For the past thirty years, both the Labrador and Golden Retriever have been victims...and continue to be.
Happily, after the fast buck breeders move on the conscientious restore the damaged breed. Happily, also, during the frenzy of fast buck breeding in each of these breeds, anyone who wants a decent representative of the breed has always been able to find one.
I am sorry that it is the German Shorthaired Pointer that is going through it now. It is a wonderful breed that has been kept quite clean from the start.
I have written extensively about how to select a good puppy in books and countless magazine articles, as have many other dog writers over the years. We hope to do some good but, we can't help anyone who doesn't want to be helped...."
James B.(Jim) Spencer

[rosiesdad]

I have owned one or two Shorthairs for 30+ years. I dont breed, or compete in field or show. I own a dog or two for companionship and to own a good hunting dog.
When I buy a dog, I dont want a half breed pointer, 90lb horse, or a dog with a bad bite. I research a good breeder and pay a fair price. I expect a dog that conforms to breed standards and is a great prospect to be a foot hunting versatile pointing dog.
Why wouldnt I care if the dog conformed to standards? I am paying pretty dearly and its my dollar. No culls for me, thank you.