Elhew English Pointer Outcrosses

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:02 pm

There has been some good dogs produced by outcrossing certain lines to the Elhew lines.Miller,Honky Tonk,Fiddler etc.But it's usually through Elhew females.Has there been much success by bringing the Elhew blood in through Elhew males to females from these or other lines? Heaton? CG? Anyone else.

cgbirddogs · Post by **cgbirddogs** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:38 am

I have had good success crossing my Elhew male Chairman to both Miller and Fiddler bred females. I have crossed Chairman to a Miller's Silver Ending female, and to a Shadow's Attitude Female that I'm going to do again when she finally cycles. I know that Elhew Phantom was crossed to Miller bred dogs and produced the National Shooting Dog Champion, and two champions who competed in the National Championship in Ames (Shell Creek Gentry and Remarkable (i think). I'm sure there are other Elhew Male to outcross females out there that have worked. The ones I've mentioned are the ones that immediately come to mind.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:52 am

Mr. Whele consistently outcrossed to male champion studs and it obviously worked quite well for him.

However, the reason that it worked so very well for him might just have been that he endeavored lto outcross only to those females who had both very solid pedigrees and who exibited the very best of what he was trying to produce.

I see no reason why you would not want to have it work in the other direction and no reason why it should not, if the quality and the consistency is there.

RayG

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:52 am

CG,
Forgot you had Chairman.One of the last close ties to McGoo,and linebred Strike/Kiwi.Didn't know if he was still breeding.I seen Mark Wendling in Wi. had a breeding advertised to him also a while back.Did the breeding take place?
What has each outcross given you? And how was the breakability of the pups?

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:57 pm

BoJack wrote:CG,
Forgot you had Chairman.One of the last close ties to McGoo,and linebred Strike/Kiwi.Didn't know if he was still breeding.I seen Mark Wendling in Wi. had a breeding advertised to him also a while back.Did the breeding take place?
What has each outcross given you? And how was the breakability of the pups?

Not an outcross but a son of Chairman on PHEZ in NODAK.......

Trophy pic from a true double with some NODAK Sharpies.......

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:40 pm

Mearns,
Nice,Real Nice.

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:25 pm

BoJack wrote:Mearns,
Nice,Real Nice.

He is a solid dog conformation wise as you can see from the pics but more importantly he is a demon with a nose when it comes to finding and pinning wild birds. The nice thing about his breeding is that CG took Chairman to Charm for the litter Bucky came from. So if you appreciate the Elhew blood, he has a very nice ped.... Clarence got to hunt over him a couple of times this Fall. He also got to see him roll in Reno over this past weekend and was able to enjoy what he has for a motor and lick now. I have hunted over Chairman as well and he is like his Sire. But this is not about Bucky and more about out crosses to Sires..........

My point is that I would like to cross him to a Miller Bitch and that was in line with your post. CG has plans for him with one of the females in his kennel, so we will see in time........

I have also hunted over the Shadow's Attitude female that Clarence mentioned (a couple of posts back) for his next litter from Chairman. I understand that the Old Man's sperm counts are healthy and those are going to be some pups to think hard about as an Elhew n Attitude cross........

CM

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:36 pm

Have been an Elhew fan since the 70's when I had an Elhew Longrifle female.With the straight Elhew lines I prefer the Strike/Kiwi bred dogs,down from McGoo,Damascus and Sea Wolf.
My young pup Doc has excellent conformation(pic on the Pointer And Setter thread)and he's already showed me the nose,but he has a ways to go yet to make the grade,especially in heavy grouse cover,but the Strik/Kiwi bred dogs are known for making good Cover dogs.If I go to an outcross in the future it'll probaby be Miller.Sounds like Bucky is a great dog.

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:12 pm

BoJack wrote:Have been an Elhew fan since the 70's when I had an Elhew Longrifle female.With the straight Elhew lines I prefer the Strike/Kiwi bred dogs,down from McGoo,Damascus and Sea Wolf.
My young pup Doc has excellent conformation(pic on the Pointer And Setter thread)and he's already showed me the nose,but he has a ways to go yet to make the grade,especially in heavy grouse cover,but the Strik/Kiwi bred dogs are known for making good Cover dogs.If I go to an outcross in the future it'll probaby be Miller.Sounds like Bucky is a great dog.

You would like his PED then. Charm is a very well bred Dam and you know Chairman's blood.........

We are thinking the same about a Miller bitch, but KIWI goes to Guard Rail and a nice Guard Rail daughter would make sense too.

CM

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:34 pm

Mearns,
Which one is Charm? Azucar? She's the only one I see on CG's site that goes back to Strike/Kiwi(on top).Yea a Guard Rail daughter would be nice,but don't know where you'd find one except from maybe Gene in the future and the last I heard he only had 2-3 straws left.Ross Callaway has one as does Jim and Matt Harris,lucky guys(I think they're litter sisters).

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:35 pm

BoJack wrote:Mearns,
Which one is Charm? Azucar? She's the only one I see on CG's site that goes back to Strike/Kiwi(on top).Yea a Guard Rail daughter would be nice,but don't know where you'd find one except from maybe Gene in the future and the last I heard he only had 2-3 straws left.Ross Callaway has one as does Jim and Matt Harris,lucky guys(I think they're litter sisters).

Yes, Ross has 3 Guard Rail daughters (with more to follow) and a Rail Dancer litter on the ground now. Safe to say they will be the foundation of his line moving forward. I think Jeff has posted a link to a pic for all to see.

Highmeadow Charm was out of Elhew Sun Dancer and Elhew Snake Dancer.

Elhew Sun Dancer is out of Elhew Blue Nose and Elhew Kiwi.

Elhew Snake Dancer is out of CH Elhew Snakefoot and Elhew Chief Krystal.

Again my boy is bred very well if you appreciate Elhew blood.

Sooooooooo buying and taking Buck to a pup from the RD litter that Ross has on the ground makes perfect sense as the Dam is Sara and she is Elhew. I also think I could argue that Guard Rail played a key role in the Elhew line when you think of KIWI and this not that much of an outcross as compared to a Miller cross for example

Right now my plans are to take a different Caladen dog (my avatar / Patchy) to Bad River. I am also close to buying a Miller bitch for a cross with Buck. She has a very nice PED and out of KOKANE. I am sure you know that dam if you have been on the Harris site and look at their current Sire out of Guard Rail. I would like to see that dog and curious if he was ever campaigned or truly hunted???

Lots of possibilities but the idea of taking two tightly line / well bred dogs to each other for a planned breeding is the goal of the outcross right?

CM

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:48 pm

Mearns,
Bucky is bred nice.Yea I know who Ko Kane is,been to Jim's site 100's of times.That's where Ross's Duke dog came from.I don't know who would argue about Guardrail's influence to the Elhew lines,and I'm sure he would've had even more infuence if Wehle could've bred more females to him before his death.Wehel had just started breeding a couple of females to him a few weeks before he was killed.Yea I knew Ross has a Rail Dancer litter.You getting one? I'm sure Guard Rail's Spirit has been hunted and proofed Many times by the Harriss's.Sounds like you have some good breeding plans ahead.Yea I'd say you're right about the outcrosses.

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Sat May 02, 2009 3:28 pm

BoJack wrote:Mearns,
Bucky is bred nice.Yea I know who Ko Kane is,been to Jim's site 100's of times.That's where Ross's Duke dog came from.I don't know who would argue about Guardrail's influence to the Elhew lines,and I'm sure he would've had even more infuence if Wehle could've bred more females to him before his death.Wehel had just started breeding a couple of females to him a few weeks before he was killed.Yea I knew Ross has a Rail Dancer litter.You getting one? I'm sure Guard Rail's Spirit has been hunted and proofed Many times by the Harriss's.Sounds like you have some good breeding plans ahead.Yea I'd say you're right about the outcrosses.

Sorry for the delayed reply as I have been on the road working BoJack...........

Ross is very pleased with the Duke n Sara pups. They are coming of age now..... No he won't sell me a RD pup.

A solid discussion or many points could be made about "Guardrail Blood" and "Elhew Blood." Especially when you look a couple of gens back on his PED. Many nice litters have come from that thought and the breedings there. I am sure someone would try to start some kind of arguement on here but who cares.............

CM

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Sun May 03, 2009 12:36 am

CM,,,, I agree with ya all the way,,, hard to miss with GR blood.

Chasin' Mearns wrote:Sorry for the delayed reply as I have been on the road working BoJack

How's BoJack coming along,,,, he going to fall in line or ya going to have to wash'em out?

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Sun May 03, 2009 9:13 am

R-Heaton wrote:CM,,,, I agree with ya all the way,,, hard to miss with GR blood.

Chasin' Mearns wrote:Sorry for the delayed reply as I have been on the road working BoJack

Rich,

I went to Reno. I dropped Bella off with Sheldon. Got to see his Strike dog. Idaho's Lucky Strike littermate right or no???

Nice either way, and I am sure this Fall will bring more wins..........

CM

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Sun May 03, 2009 11:13 am

Yea,,, you saw Idaho's Clean Sweep,,,, he must be pretty nice done some winning. Did you see him run?

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Sun May 03, 2009 11:40 am

R-Heaton wrote:Yea,,, you saw Idaho's Clean Sweep,,,, he must be pretty nice done some winning. Did you see him run?

That was my intent but no........ He was just a nice specimen on the stake to me because I could not take time off from work for the open......... I also car trouble on the way to Reno, so even though I got Boo to Sheldon, the trip was kind of a train wreck.....

I bought the PED for Champion I L S. Any of that semen available in frozen as you look a few gens back? PM is ok too....

Steve

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Sun May 03, 2009 11:54 am

Chasin' Mearns wrote:I bought the PED for Champion I L S. Any of that semen available in frozen as you look a few gens back? PM is ok too

Not sure what the question is? You bought a pedigree for Idaho Lucky Strike??? You could have called I would have sent you one,,, what did it cost?

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Sun May 03, 2009 4:42 pm

R-Heaton wrote:
Chasin' Mearns wrote:I bought the PED for Champion I L S. Any of that semen available in frozen as you look a few gens back? PM is ok too
Not sure what the question is? You bought a pedigree for Idaho Lucky Strike??? You could have called I would have sent you one,,, what did it cost?

Yes, I bought his PED..... Not sure if you remember but I saw him run 3 years ago in Idaho and the R W R blood interests me.

I want to know about frozen from CH Elhew Copper Strike??

Steve

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sun May 03, 2009 5:26 pm

I want to know about frozen from CH Elhew Copper Strike??

Too late. None left. Just used last straw to breed Trixie...should be some nice lookin' pups:

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun May 03, 2009 5:47 pm

Gee Doug,

Looks like you are upgrading your dogs. Love that face and ear set.

Ezzy

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Sun May 03, 2009 6:02 pm

DGFavor wrote:
I want to know about frozen from CH Elhew Copper Strike??
Too late. None left. Just used last straw to breed Trixie...should be some nice lookin' pups:

Hope all is well Doc Favor........... Nice pic and since you posted??? You may have seen CH ECS run?

You have also created the opening for a different outcross. EP and GSP? I got good $$$ that it has been done and folks from both camps will get cranky there.........

Your pic also made me think of another post or idea that Garmin should listen to and quickly........ I think their collars should be made of a "dura-lon" like material vs. the current woven nylon. Don't tell me you wouldn't swap out the one on your GSP in that pic........ I know I want to for my dogs.

Steve

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Sun May 03, 2009 7:00 pm

Yea,,, the Doc is right,,,, no more Copperstrike left. Yea we only ran Ben there twice over in eastern Idaho,,,, won one time and doc lost him about a minute the next.

dudleysmith · Post by **dudleysmith** » Sun May 03, 2009 7:11 pm

I think there might be some Copper strike left in Ok...

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Sun May 03, 2009 8:20 pm

dudleysmith wrote:I think there might be some Copper strike left in Ok...

How would one find that out?

Steve

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Mon May 04, 2009 2:17 pm

You may have seen CH ECS run?

No, I'm just a young whippersnapper - barely turned 21 for the 23rd time in December. I think ECS would be, what, like a hunnert? I have had my arse whooped by a handful of his thawed out grandget though the years all throughout the northwest...and Rich keeps makin' more of 'em so probably won't be an end to that anytime soon.

EP and GSP?

Stitchy managed to sneak in a successful breeding to Rich's little pointer Skeet once - woulda probably been some gooduns too but had the vet put a stop to that deal!! Little dufus doesn't seem to want to knock up any GSP's now ever since he had a pointer!!

I think their collars should be made of a "dura-lon" like material vs. the current woven nylon.

I don't mind those collars. A little clunky but they seem darn solid and secure. An orange color option would be nice in case it ever did fall off - make it easier to spot on the ground or in the brush if you tracked it down.

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Mon May 04, 2009 3:48 pm

I think their collars should be made of a "dura-lon" like material vs. the current woven nylon.

I don't mind those collars. A little clunky but they seem darn solid and secure. An orange color option would be nice in case it ever did fall off - make it easier to spot on the ground or in the brush if you tracked it down.

Dura lon would be easier to maintain. Not a lot of moisture in AZ, but it would be better for wetter climates.

You mentioned Stitchy. Was he the Sire of TWs female? Nice dog.

Steve

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Mon May 04, 2009 5:15 pm

Let's see if we can get back on track with "English Pointer Outcrosses" and some pics to enjoy as well as walk the talk.........

Here is one of my females. She is a Kissamee x Elhew cross. Sire is Kissamee Dream Machine and the Dam is Vanidestine's Elhew Sue.

AF win.......

On the table at 18 months.......

On Mearns this Spring.....

CM

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Wed May 06, 2009 9:28 pm

Okay let's have some more input on Elhew crosses with other lines and also Guard Rail blood and crosses with other lines.
What and who's been sucessful with the different crosses.And post your pics.

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Wed May 06, 2009 10:30 pm

BoJack wrote:Okay let's have some more input on Elhew crosses with other lines and also Guard Rail blood and crosses with other lines.
What and who's been sucessful with the different crosses.And post your pics.

I think "Caladen's All Business" is worth a pic or two!!!!!

Here she is with HOF TRIALER, POINTER ICON, and LEGEND Mr. Eugene Casale!!!

Her Sire is Attitude n Elhew. Her Dam is a Go Boy daughter. I would call her Rebel bred with the above pic of her and Gene in mind. 7 HOF dogs in 3 GENs is some thought driven blood there...........

CM

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed May 06, 2009 11:25 pm

Chasin ...Didn't that Arizona raised Girl just win some back east derby title

Congratulations on that

Any more news on Bella also here in the west

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Thu May 07, 2009 8:32 am

Mearns,
Nice.

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Thu May 07, 2009 8:39 am

Also out there for input is how much of the easy breakability that the Elhew lines are known for comes down when out crossed with some of these other lines? I've asked this question to a few people in the last couple of years and never seem to get an answer.I know it mostly depends on the individual dogs,but in general.

BrettBryan · Post by **BrettBryan** » Thu May 07, 2009 9:53 am

Bojack wrote,

how much of the easy breakability that the Elhew lines are known for comes down when out crossed with some of these other lines?

Are the current Elhew bred dogs "known" for the easy breakability?

A few old time bird hunters I know, never liked Elhew bred dogs because they say they were hard to break. They told me they were quirky and funnyfied. They said they were not very forgiving, more of a softer dog.

Those of you who have had Elhew dogs and pointers from other lines, what are your thoughts on this? Is there any truth to this?

Chasin' Mearns · Post by **Chasin' Mearns** » Thu May 07, 2009 10:21 am

I think making generalities about any blood from any breed is tough to do and normally causes drama on the boards.

What is Elhew today? What is any line today vs. 20 years ago?

The best PROs can read the dog, and break from there.

Some will nock a pure Elhew bred dog today. Some will blast a Ford too.

I do think there is a changing of the "old ways" happening today. Like it or not, we have all seen pups or derbies with full grown nads in the derby class. The age old standard or game of the January pup........ This directly relates to natural ability and the breaking process. Some breeders are now running 14 month old dogs in Championships and winning. And clearly promoting this about their blood. Kind of changes the game and raises the bar..........

CM

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Tue May 12, 2009 11:46 pm

I actually have plans of crossing my Elhew male and Miller female pointer this summer in a month or so when she comes back into heat. If anyone is interested in their pedigrees just click in my signature on 1302 and 1304 pedigrees. They are both excellent quail dogs and the female is an excellent wild pheasant dog. I only hunt and train on wild birds. I would be interested in knowing what some of your opinions are.

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Wed May 13, 2009 4:37 pm

That looks like an interesting cross. The female seems like a Miller fiddler cross herseif, how much miller is in there? I saw Raincloud in there but I am not sure about the Pokerstait dogs are they Miller in the background?

drp · Post by **drp** » Wed May 13, 2009 5:23 pm

Years ago, my father and I had a lot of luck crossing an Elhew female to a Red Water Rex male. That seemed to nitch well for us. The Elhew dogs were a bit close and easy to handle but the RWR dogs ran big and were a bit hard headed....hence the cross that seemed to fit well for us. We did this for a couple fo litters and then moved on to other stuff. Those dogs are gone now and their gene pool has as well. Interesting to see that 50 years later you guys are still debating the topic. Good Hunting.

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Wed May 13, 2009 5:57 pm

drp wrote:Those dogs are gone now and their gene pool has as well.

I like that cross,,,, the gene pool isn't all that far gone.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Wed May 13, 2009 9:27 pm

yme here is a more complete pedigree on her.

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:16 pm

drp wrote:Years ago, my father and I had a lot of luck crossing an Elhew female to a Red Water Rex male. That seemed to nitch well for us. The Elhew dogs were a bit close and easy to handle but the RWR dogs ran big and were a bit hard headed....hence the cross that seemed to fit well for us. We did this for a couple fo litters and then moved on to other stuff. Those dogs are gone now and their gene pool has as well. Interesting to see that 50 years later you guys are still debating the topic. Good Hunting.

Well I know this thread is old but I wanted to show you what the 2010 version of this cross is looking like. I took my Sir Lancelot bitch to a linebred Fibber McGee stud dog and really like what I am seeing at 3 1/2 weeks. I know that doesn't mean much but so far all look fantastic, have great tails and are really bold little firecrackers