Tails too short?

M1Tanker · Post by **M1Tanker** » Wed May 13, 2009 6:19 am

When I took my GSP pups to the vet for their tail docking I explained the breed standard and told her that longer was better if she had any doubts.

Now that the pups are growing I am noticing that the tails were docked what I would deem to be too short. I would expect no more than 4" tails at full growth as some of the tails do not cover the genitals when tucked under.

I know that the tail length is not going to affect the hunting ability of the pups but this upsets me as a breeder because I am trying to put the best of the best in the woods to further the breed and style is all part of the equation. I did my homework with this breeding and I feel like it is dimished by a snip of a scissors.

Needless to say I have a horrible feeling in my gut that I messed up by not taking a marker and drawing a line on the tails for the cut.

Somebody please make me feel better!

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed May 13, 2009 7:04 am

Pretty comon problem when you trust a vet to do it right. My vet cuts each pup where I say, then if messed up it is my fault. If they are hi tails then they should look ok, higher the better if on the short side.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Wed May 13, 2009 7:10 am

Brenda:

What is your criteria for the length of the tail. Or more to the point how do you determine the correct length.

My Buddy Bob Enelhardt used to like half way. I was thinking half way plus one vertibrae. I am getting ready to breed Mercy (GSP) and this was a question I wanted to pose. Are there not two different standards?

Thanks,
Rick

M1Tanker · Post by **M1Tanker** » Wed May 13, 2009 7:14 am

They should be high...both boys that I have set their tails soo high that it curves forward.

I'll post pics later of the tails.

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Wed May 13, 2009 7:15 am

I don't know if there is anything that will make you feel better except for the tail reaching the length you want when fully grown. I'll keep my fingers crossed.
I always take a marker so that the vet knows how long I like the tails cut and then I always stay in the room while it's being done. Next time...

M1Tanker · Post by **M1Tanker** » Wed May 13, 2009 7:21 am

"Next time" is right...the vet wouldn't let me on the exam room. Note to self: magic marker and be in the room to supervise or get a vet that will let me participate!

Will the tails grow out? I was under the impression that they will grow in proportion to the body once cut, meaning that if they look short now they are going to stay short.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Wed May 13, 2009 7:23 am

I made the same mistake if it makes you feel any better. You can't do anything about it so put it behind you .....

its aggravating

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Wed May 13, 2009 7:43 am

I use a little over half, mark them and discuss it greatly with the vet. Nothing you can do about it now but the swtandard in the book is probably what you have. A lot of vets do Boxers and others and that is whay they cut them so short.

A lesson learned.

Pepper

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed May 13, 2009 7:49 am

The last litter I raised I did the tails myself( I was afraid I would get boxer tails) , they turned out really nice, I marked the tails where they would cover the pups "privates" and that is where I cut.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed May 13, 2009 8:50 am

The breed standard is 40% (approx. 4th vertebre). Many breeders like 45-50% (approx. 5th vertebra). If the tail starts liver at the base and changes over to white as you move towards the tip, it's nice to get a tuft of white on the end as it is easier to see and flashier. Covering the privates as mentioned by Andy is a good check on length. The docked tails length proportionate to it's body doesn't really change much as they grow.

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed May 13, 2009 9:22 am

We go a hair under half. If you pull them down they should be a little longer than their privates.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed May 13, 2009 9:31 am

Many dogs have a tail base that is liver, and a white portion further up. We always dock those tails so that we get some white at the tip. Easier to see the tail in the field, and looks nice when the dog is running. Look at that avatar dogs of bobman, hotpepper, bigshooter, and mine, and you will see what I mean.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed May 13, 2009 9:40 am

Note the difference in length between the two dogs in my avatar photo and snip's. I'd say my dog is at the minimum (4th veterbre - approx. 40%) and her tail doesn't extend down far enough to cover her privates but you will see lots of dogs that look like this including her brother who is the current two time national champion. Snip's dog in the avatar has an obviously longer tail. The difference in the two dog's tail length will not affect their ability to win outside the show ring, nor would anything except possibly a bobbed tail keep me from buying a pup from the right breeding.

kerplunk105 · Post by **kerplunk105** » Wed May 13, 2009 9:49 am

I think Leena's tail is too short. I met another GSP and her tail was soo long compared to Leena's. The owner got her from a breeder in Kansas and said they they tend to cut them longer "out there" compared to the East Coast.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed May 13, 2009 9:54 am

Did you ever hear the tale about Ole and Leena ............ sorry ... couldn't resist.

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Wed May 13, 2009 9:58 am

whenever i cut tails I make the owner show me exactly where they want them cut. that way its their fault if tyhey arent happy with it!

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Wed May 13, 2009 10:16 am

There are folks out this way that I don't even know why they bother nipping the tip of the tail off at all they leave 'em so ridiculously long. I would prefer they just left 'em full length or cut 'em to at least some approximation of the standard - the baseball bat looking tails they have now are hideous to my eye - for some reason the long tail folks like to pick on me about it like it's my fault!!

kerplunk105 · Post by **kerplunk105** » Wed May 13, 2009 11:29 am

BigShooter wrote:Did you ever hear the tale about Ole and Leena ............ sorry ... couldn't resist.

No, I didnt but I of course had to look it up.

I found some pretty silly ones

http://www.surfminnesota.net/olelena.html

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed May 13, 2009 11:44 am

Great reply. Of course I had to click on your link. Check out the "Members Only" section and look up Norwegian jokes if you haven't already done so. Feel free to contribute. By the way Leena's tail looks to be about the same length as my avatar's tail.

Prairie Hunter · Post by **Prairie Hunter** » Wed May 13, 2009 12:40 pm

I like the looks of the tail a little on the long side. I would prefer to see them too long rather than too short. I consulted an experienced breeder friend of mine when I had my 1st litter. He told me he leaves 70% of the tail. I thought that seemed a little long, but I have seen lots of his dogs, and liked the length of their tails. I had a vet measure each tail, and cut at 70%. Some of the tails came out a little longer than I had wanted, but like I said, I would rather have them a little too long than too short. Next litter, I will leave 60% of the tail. Fortunately, the lenght of the tail doesn't determine how well the dog hunts!

postoakshorthairs · Post by **postoakshorthairs** » Wed May 13, 2009 12:54 pm

The last litter I raised I did the tails myself( I was afraid I would get boxer tails) , they turned out really nice, I marked the tails where they would cover the pups "privates" and that is where I cut.

Out of curiosity what did you use to cut the tails? and did you do your own dew claws as well?

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed May 13, 2009 1:18 pm

If you cut your own tails, do it in 1-3 days after birth, before there are nerve endings the full length of the tail. Pull the skin towards the butt, then cut (vets typically use a surgical scissors), pull the skin back and apply a stitch or you could try EMT gel. Personally I'm not fond of the bare skin at the stub of the tail look.

P.S. Here's one of the old threads on how to do tails and dew claws: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=13103&p=117890&hil ... in#p117890

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Wed May 13, 2009 1:34 pm

How come tail length seems to be such a topic with the gsp people,,, all the other docked tail breeds seem to be able to come to agreement on length. I look at brits, weims, gwp,,,, they never seem to have this discussion and there dogs are all pretty even in length,,, but the gsp are all over the board. The trend seems to be the longer the better.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed May 13, 2009 1:36 pm

I do the tail with a used pair of sidecutters. It pinches them off and also pulls the skin so you do not get a bre stump. When you do it hold them closed for 15 seconds or so and rarely do you lose more than a drop of blood and many times not even a drop. There is no need of a stitch or gel doing it this way. I use them for the dew claws also and those might bleed a few drops so you can use a steptic pencil or the powder if you want though not really needed. It's by far the best way I have found to do them humanely and with almost no lost of blood.

Ezzy

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed May 13, 2009 1:44 pm

R-Heaton wrote:How come tail length seems to be such a topic with the gsp people,,, all the other docked tail breeds seem to be able to come to agreement on length. I look at brits, weims, gwp,,,, they never seem to have this discussion and there dogs are all pretty even in length,,, but the gsp are all over the board. The trend seems to be the longer the better.

Could it be because the number of GSPs (and their breeders) vastly outnumber each of the other pointing breeds, leading to many more opinions about what each GSP tail docker prefers?

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed May 13, 2009 1:47 pm

I think it is because a lot of breeders are wanting them to look like a pointer instead of what the standard says a GSP is supposed to look like. The longer tails look nice if they are held high but have little to do with finding birds unless you keep it wet so the dog knows which way the wind is blowing.

Ezzy

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Wed May 13, 2009 1:58 pm

I would rather have them too long then too short.For those that think they are too long you could always have them shortened but hard to put back the couple inches when too short.Hey Doug & Rich is that why you 2 don't like Sonny,his tail is TOO LONG!

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Wed May 13, 2009 2:16 pm

Actually I think there is a German or European standard and the AKC standard. 3/5ths and the other is half? Then of course then there is preference. I am not sure.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Wed May 13, 2009 2:22 pm

Actually I think the AKC standard is 40% but I like a minimum of 50% & no longer then 60%.This is America & so far we can have them any length we want but the animal rights people would like them all of all breeds to be full lenth as born.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed May 13, 2009 2:25 pm

As I recall after they prohibited docking in Sweden, by 1991 the rate of injury to non-shortened tails had reached 51%.

nitrex · Post by **nitrex** » Wed May 13, 2009 4:03 pm

I cut them all at 1.5 inches on day 3. That leaves them with enough to cover the genitals. It is amazing how just a little more or less changes the length when full grown. In one litter I had, the tails on the 3 day old pups ranged from 2.5 to 3 inches. We still cut them at 1.5 and every one had a great tail. I also agree that a long tail that is not carried well looks worse that a little shorter one.

Nitrex

Doodle · Post by **Doodle** » Wed May 13, 2009 5:34 pm

This is a good discussion to have but beware...there are states who are trying to pass laws RIGHT NOW that would prohibit the docking of any tails.

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Thu May 14, 2009 12:25 am

Doodle wrote:there are states who are trying to pass laws RIGHT NOW that would prohibit the docking of any tails.

That wouldn't be all that bad would it?

Is there anything that says you have to dock the tail? Can you not dock the tail and still register it with the AKC?

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu May 14, 2009 6:37 am

postoakshorthairs wrote:
The last litter I raised I did the tails myself( I was afraid I would get boxer tails) , they turned out really nice, I marked the tails where they would cover the pups "privates" and that is where I cut.
Out of curiosity what did you use to cut the tails? and did you do your own dew claws as well?

I used surgical shears, used them for declaws as well, I have also seen large nail clippers used for dewclaws.

I pushed the skin toward the butt, and then snipped the tail in a v toward the butt, all tails ended up nice no bald tips, I also added some derma bond not sure how much good it did though.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Thu May 14, 2009 7:53 am

R-Heaton wrote:Is there anything that says you have to dock the tail? Can you not dock the tail and still register it with the AKC?

We have docked tails now as a result of tradition. However, as I understand it, in the early days of the breeds owners noticed large numbers of tails getting torn up & badly injured while dogs ran outdoors. Apparently the tails didn't heal well and the dogs suffered. It was felt the shortened tail resulted in less suffering for the dogs. If, as I was told, a number of the working dogs had developed rather poor, weak tails they would be more prone to serious injury. As I reported in a previous post, in one country, after tail docking was prohibited, 51% of the non-docked dogs experienced tail injuries.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu May 14, 2009 8:09 am

R-Heaton wrote:
Doodle wrote:there are states who are trying to pass laws RIGHT NOW that would prohibit the docking of any tails.
That wouldn't be all that bad would it?

Is there anything that says you have to dock the tail? Can you not dock the tail and still register it with the AKC?

Outside the fact that the animal rights people would be infringing on my rights, Nah nothin wrong at all.

PrairieGoat · Post by **PrairieGoat** » Thu May 14, 2009 7:07 pm

R-Heaton wrote:
Doodle wrote:there are states who are trying to pass laws RIGHT NOW that would prohibit the docking of any tails.
That wouldn't be all that bad would it?

Is there anything that says you have to dock the tail? Can you not dock the tail and still register it with the AKC?

Yeah, it makes them ugly like those EPs!!!

Seriously though, I have seen pictures of several GSPs that had undocked tails....I didn't like the look. Don't know whether it is because I've always seen the docked tails or what. Maybe it's something that will grow on you (pun intended

). One of my dogs has a tail that seems to be too short to me and one that is "just right". Funny thing is that at a year and a half old, the one with the shorter tail seldom wags it (except while on birds), while the one that has the "just right" tail wags his all the time. Also, the one that has the longer tail carries his much higher as a general rule. Not sure why theses differences, or if the tail length has any correlation to either. Just some observations...

Randy

hi-tailyn · Post by **hi-tailyn** » Thu May 14, 2009 8:44 pm

I've heard of people being able to feel the vertebrae of 3 day old GSP puppies. They must have very delicate finger feelings. I measure each tail and mark 1/2, then make sure it covers their private. I use hemostats and clamp on the line and twist off the end of tail and leave clamped on while I use curved mosquito hemostats to pop off the dew claws. Very little bleeding on the dews and absolutely none on the tails. By clamping you always get fury ends on the tails by the time they are 3-4 months. I used to cut, snip, stitch, glue, and even use a soldering iron to cauterize, and every one had a bald tip. Typical of a Vet job that I even tried once. Have gone to several neonatal and Repro vet seminars, and this is how they suggest docking tails and dew claws. Now friends ask me to come over and do every litter they have.
I agree that if a dog doesn't carry his tail high a longer tail don't look good.
I have noticed Brittany's have started to getting longer tails. Some stand up tall and really look good on point.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri May 15, 2009 8:15 am

I have heard my terrier friends talking about the clamp and twist method, never tried it though, sounds good. Will you PM me a few more details about the method of dew claw removal? thanks

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Fri May 15, 2009 12:10 pm

My vet does it the same way as Scott. No bald tips on the tails, and the dews turn out nicely. He goes 5/8 of total length, and if there's a different color on the tip, he tries to get that. He always has me right there to help, so I get to give the OK before he twists 'em off.

Doug

edit:5/8 of total length, not 5/8".

Prairie Hunter · Post by **Prairie Hunter** » Fri May 15, 2009 10:40 pm

R-Heaton wrote:How come tail length seems to be such a topic with the gsp people,,, all the other docked tail breeds seem to be able to come to agreement on length. I look at brits, weims, gwp,,,, they never seem to have this discussion and there dogs are all pretty even in length,,, but the gsp are all over the board. The trend seems to be the longer the better.

I recently saw a thread on the Versatile Dog site where GWP owners were discussing how long to leave their dogs' tails. There were different opinions, but I don't think there's as much variation in the length of their dogs' tails as with GSPs.

tinahiggins · Post by **tinahiggins** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:12 am

R-Heaton wrote:
Doodle wrote:there are states who are trying to pass laws RIGHT NOW that would prohibit the docking of any tails.
That wouldn't be all that bad would it?

Is there anything that says you have to dock the tail? Can you not dock the tail and still register it with the AKC?

The AKC allows dogs to be registered with tails. And as for the dogs that get tail injuries, fix it then. No reason to cut off a part to a dog that MIGHT get injured. That's like chopping toes off babies cause they might drop a hammer on it.
As for dewclaws, yeah, I agree with it on working dogs. Seen 'em come into the clinic with the "finger" mostly torn off too many time not to agree. But I don't have a problem waiting until anesthesia and painkillers can be used either. I know I'd sure as anything want drugs.

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:33 am

tinahiggins wrote:
R-Heaton wrote:
Doodle wrote:there are states who are trying to pass laws RIGHT NOW that would prohibit the docking of any tails.
That wouldn't be all that bad would it?

Is there anything that says you have to dock the tail? Can you not dock the tail and still register it with the AKC?

The AKC allows dogs to be registered with tails. And as for the dogs that get tail injuries, fix it then. No reason to cut off a part to a dog that MIGHT get injured. That's like chopping toes off babies cause they might drop a hammer on it.
As for dewclaws, yeah, I agree with it on working dogs. Seen 'em come into the clinic with the "finger" mostly torn off too many time not to agree. But I don't have a problem waiting until anesthesia and painkillers can be used either. I know I'd sure as anything want drugs.

You're kidding right? How can you compare a dog's tail to a baby's toe? A better comparison would be a circumcision. Do you have a GSP? Do you have a long tailed dog that you hunt? I've never seen a long tailed dog that hunted without a tail injury...and how long do you want to keep fixing it when you can rid the problem from the beginning.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:26 am

tinahiggins wrote:
R-Heaton wrote:
Doodle wrote:there are states who are trying to pass laws RIGHT NOW that would prohibit the docking of any tails.
That wouldn't be all that bad would it?

Is there anything that says you have to dock the tail? Can you not dock the tail and still register it with the AKC?

The AKC allows dogs to be registered with tails. And as for the dogs that get tail injuries, fix it then. No reason to cut off a part to a dog that MIGHT get injured. That's like chopping toes off babies cause they might drop a hammer on it.
As for dewclaws, yeah, I agree with it on working dogs. Seen 'em come into the clinic with the "finger" mostly torn off too many time not to agree. But I don't have a problem waiting until anesthesia and painkillers can be used either. I know I'd sure as anything want drugs.

Tina do you know why tails and dewclaws are done at such an early age?

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:59 am

I have seen many tail injuries in mixed breed GSP's and terriers and it involves weeks of recovery with sutures and usually the skin does not recover well. Often the skin dies and the bone is exposed to infection and then the tail must be docked later. At that point anesthesia helps the operation be pain free, BUT unless you hospitalized with full sedation for the 7- 10 days following, the tail is still painful during recocery time. You have to REALLY watch to be sure the dog does not reinjure that tail in the mean time by trying to lick it or by wagging it against a wall or table when he or she is happy to see you come home. I have seen tails with skin completely ripped off and bone exposed for more than 5 inches. I have seen tails with long lacerations that had to be rapaired over 5 times. You can not add up all that pain and tell me that the pain meds during surgery and a little rimadyl is less painful than a few seconds of pain in a 3 day old puppy. What about all the time prior to getting to the vet. The circumcision example is a good one. They did not use any pain meds on my boys and they were 1 day old babies. Cried for a minute or so. I am not male, but I sure do bet a circumcision later in life no matter how much pain medication os provided would be MUCH more pain full!

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:23 am

Up here in the briars and blow downs, Every year I see many long tail dogs bloody and some broken. Sure they can be fixed but the pain the dog gets from the damage maybe 5 times a year?, is worse than docking the tails once, not to mention the potential infections and other problems that can manifest after repeated damage. Imagine having to remove a tail of a grown dog. How much pain is that. In fact as stated there is no pain when docking a 2 day old pup. Same with dew claws.

Do you leave the dew claws on your dogs? If you did not notice these are working dogs.

tinahiggins wrote:The AKC allows dogs to be registered with tails. And as for the dogs that get tail injuries, fix it then. No reason to cut off a part to a dog that MIGHT get injured. That's like chopping toes off babies cause they might drop a hammer on it.
As for dewclaws, yeah, I agree with it on working dogs. Seen 'em come into the clinic with the "finger" mostly torn off too many time not to agree. But I don't have a problem waiting until anesthesia and painkillers can be used either. I know I'd sure as anything want drugs.

I just wrote all this and I quess I am Dittoing Mountain dog.

GSP 4 me · Post by **GSP 4 me** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:21 pm

My wife and I got our GSP from a shelter so we had no control over the tail docking. Based on all the photos I've seen as well as the dogs I've met, I feel my GSP's tail is too short. We've simply called it the "Tootsie Roll" and are always amused when it wags quickly. I agree, GSPs look a bit strange with full length tails.

No one bothered to remove the dew claws when he was a pup. Perhaps he wasn't intended to be a field dog. Since our dog was already two years old at the time of adoption, we felt the dog would probably be better off keeping them. I've already seen two injuries as a result of a dew claw nail being broken (neither time while hunting) and if I ever get another GSP.....you can bet he/she will not have them.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:36 pm

I remember as a kid my mother raised a litter of Springer Spaniels and docked the tails between 1 and 3 days with a razor blade and do not recall any bald tail ends but I have not been a kid in quite awhile.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:25 pm

We normally had one hospital bay full of kids mostly from the ghettos getting circumsized while I was in the Air Force. And believe me they weren't jumping for joy for at least a week.

Babies of all speices feel little pain it seems when we do even fairly major type surgery. I judge that by the fact that they never miss a meal. Plus animals do not feel pain like we do. It's another case of trying to put human feelings into our animals world.

Ezzy

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:46 pm

i have no qualms about docking tails or dewclaws, but if you think those newborn pups dont feel it when you cut or twist, you are mistaken. some cry more than others, but they feel it, trust me.