Derby Question

[daddyfid]

Taking my Vizslas to run in their first Derby next weekend. Both are about 13 months old. Can a young dog that has great wheels and runs the lines great compete with a dog that is broke?

Ex - My dog runs great and has one find but was not broke through the flush. Can this compete with a dog that did not run well but was solid through the flush.

Do judges judge differently from a riding trial to a walking trial.

Thanks for your input.
Brian

[shags]

Is this an akc trial or an af trial?
In akc trials, the dog must point and no extra credit is supposed to be given for showing broke. Sometimes it happens that judges are somewhat influenced by a more finished performance though. Nothing you can do about that. I'll put up a derby with great ground speed and good application any time over one who lacks that but has broke dog manners but runs no-so-well. If your dog is running lines, I hope he's hunting and not just motoring along with the wind whistling through his ears.
In my experience, walking derbies are usually shorter ranging than HB derbies. Not always, though
Your dog is very young and could be competing against dogs almost twice his age. There is a huge difference. Go do your thing, have fun, and remember that it's good experience for you both. If you get a placement, that's gravy!
Best of luck - high tails and happy trialing!

[hpvizslas]

What type of trial are you running in?? AKC or AF

[Wagonmaster]

Yes, a Derby must establish a point. But it doesn't have to last very long. Most judges are looking for run and application in a Derby. We rarely see broke derbies in AKC trials. In fact, I don't recall ever seeing a truly broke derby - one that is steady to wing and shot. Some will hold until the handler walks in, but then will go. So I would not worry about the dog being broke.

What does help is that the dog is willing to hold its birds for awhile. Derbies that run big, establish point, then bust in and take the bird out often don't get credit for the point because it happened while the dog was too far away and out of sight of the judges. We love seeing that kind of run, but we do have to see the dog establish a point, however brief, in order to place it.

[mudhunter]

If it's AF you have to remember that almost all the dogs will run big and most will look good doing it and in AF almost all will be at the very least green broke (steady to W&S but maybe taking a step or two afterwards). I have a derby the same age that I am busting to get out and trial but he is not quite ready yet with his bird work, hopefully soon!!! Good luck and have fun!

[Wagonmaster]

and almost all will be 4 years old also. or 5.

[original mngsp]

and almost all will be 4 years old also. or 5.

Its not that bad, maybe 3 or 4.

Like everyone has mentioned, it's typically range and application. This meaning the rare All-Age derby that is actually seen pointing a bird will usually be regarded very highly in the judges eyes. Most AKC trials will have gun dog/shooting dogs in the Derby stake and range and application are are the main factors. The degree of "brokeness" comes into play as a seperator when everything else is equal. This is the way I look at and judge Derbies< other judges may see thing different.

If you got a good dog, go turn him loose and at the end of the stake if he has made you happy and maybe also made the judges sit up in thier saddle it is a good day. Great dogs arent ever made in puppy/derby stakes, its years of real world bird experience and planty of our made up games that make them what they are.

[Casper]

Do judges judge differently from a riding trial to a walking trial.

Unfortunately many do A good judge judges dogs on their "application" to the grounds and the course. Always look at a dogs "application"................not how far in front he is.

[Rich Heaton]

Can a young dog that has great wheels and runs the lines great compete with a dog that is broke?

Your kinda of fishing for an answer here that suits your dog,,,, the answer will always be two-fold,,,,, No it can't compete with a dog that has equal great wheels and is broke to boot,,,, or Yea it can compete with a bunch of boot polishers that are broke but don't go anywhere. I'm speaking of AF of course and surprised nobody has mentioned it,,, but derbies are judged on potential,,, IMO birdwork should always be rewarded but its not always the case,,, when all said and done the judge should make his decision on "what dog would I like to take home to my own kennel". To me that brings in a whole other aspect of it,,, heart, desire, drive. It's hit home hard this year training in 90+ temps,,,, it takes alot of heart and desire to push to the front and keep your mind on your job,,,,, the kinda of dog that everybody wants and champions are made.

[daddyfid]

Thanks for the great information. This is an AKC walking trial. I thought derby dogs had be 2 years or younger.

[mudhunter]

Thanks for the great information. This is an AKC walking trial. I thought derby dogs had be 2 years or younger.

Some breeders will hold back registering a litter so the pups will seem younger than they really are. That's why people are saying the derbies are 3-5 years old, thats a whole big can of worms.

[Wagonmaster]

I can't say it has never happened in AKC, but if it has you certainly don't see much of it (redshirting that is). It was prevalent until the advent of DNA a few years ago, and some prominent breeders got caught. That is not to say there weren't problems on the AKC side, but redshirting was not the problem. I was pokin' fun at the claim the AF derby winners are all going to run big and be broke. Dogs are dogs, and while there are still some AKC breeds that mature late, by and large the AKC dogs and the AF dogs mature at the same rate. In fact, some years back you would not see pointers and setters in AKC trials, nor GSP's in AF trials, but today lots of setters and some pointers run both AKC and AF, so they are the very same dogs. Anybody claiming that the AF dogs run bigger and are broke as derbies deserves a little pokin', cause those same dogs are in an AKC trial this weekend, and AF the next.

I will tell you what wins in Derby stakes. Usually what happens is that there are a few absolutely gorgeous big running dogs that really make you sit up in the saddle and wish they would go on point so you could put them up. But they almost never do, they are young and just running for the fun of it, and they have not seen enough birds yet to know where to go look for one, so they either never get into birds, or if they do, the judges are nowhere near to see it. So usually we wind up putting up three or four sort of middle of the road dogs that just run ok and do manage to point a bird.

Derby stakes are, for me, the most frustrating of all the stakes to judge for that reason. The dogs that are really good, and that you know are going to turn into Championship caliber dogs, rarely establish point where it can be seen. The ones that only look fair and don't set your heart on fire are the ones that you have to put up.

[jetjockey]

How much do Derby Trials say about the potential of your dog? The reason I ask is because I spoke with my trainer today and it seems my pup is doing really well at camp. She is 14 months old and he thinks I should just run her in Derby trails and skip the puppy trails. He has her running 300-400 yards in front of him off horseback and she is holding her points very well. He says she will run much bigger, but hes holding her "close" for now. He says shes pretty much broke at this point and not creeping when birds are flushed. He seems to be really really happy with her, and he is one of the better known trainers with my pups breed. Im going to go see her in 2 weeks at camp and Im really excited. Im just trying to judge what kind of dog I have and how much money and time I want to invest into her. Im torn between having a hunting buddy and possibly having a field trail dog. If I can manage to have both I would be really, really happy!

[Wagonmaster]

The trial itself says very little about the potential of your dog. Your own judgment and that of the trainer should tell you alot more.

Reading between the lines, it looks as though your pro has the pup steady and his thinking may be that running the dog in puppy stakes, it will run with alot of young dogs that aren't steady at all, will take out birds, and will undo the work he has done so far. Maybe he is thinking it would be better to run the dog in derby stakes because the other dogs' manners will be better. If that is his thinking, he is wrong. Young dogs in derby stakes are just as bad.

You didn't say the breed, but if the dog is AKC and you are working towards an FC, then run the dog in Puppy and in Derby. You can get two points towards the FC in both types of stakes. As soon as the pup has its points in either type of stake, quit running it in that type of stake, you have nothing more to gain. Don't know your pup's birthday, but it probably does not have much time left to run as a Puppy anyway.

If the dog is primarily AF, then I would not run it in Puppy stakes at all. You have nothing to gain from that at this point.

[dan v]

jetjockey,

Everything has to be viewed with the positives and negatives in mind. As John mentioned, you 14 month old has little time left as a Puppy. And John is correct about the manners of Derbies...many times not much for manners.

If the dog was mine, I'd probably have the dog go to the events, there is a need for the dog to learn how to travel and be on a chain, and run the dog very sparingly as a Derby. If the dog gets it's 2 points, put him/her up....if the dog starts getting mugged by the bracemate, put him/her up. The upside of get two stinkin' derby points many times doesn't out weigh the damage that poor birds and/or a poor bracemate can do.

And besides...ask yourself this. Do you want to own the dog that NEEDED puppy/derby points to finish? I don't

[jetjockey]

Thanks for the replys guys. My pup is a Brit that was born June 2008. Everything youve said is something I have thought about in respect to other derby dogs not having a lot in the line of manners. The sire's owner has a bunch of dogs with the trainer and he said the same thing about derby trials. Im not a hard core field trail guy so my pup isn't going to be on the field trial circuit full time. But if she seems to be really special then Id like to try and balance field trials with hunting. It really all depends on how well she does and what the trainer thinks. Luckily, my trainer seems pretty honest and up front with me. He came with good recomendations and I'm really happy with everything thats going on. He told me last night that my pup reminds him a lot of her sire. The sire is a full time AA dog that has done very well on the Brittany circuit. In the event that I do have an AA field trial dog Id like to learn as much as possible so I can make the best decisions for her. This board has been a great learning experience. There is 3 trials that she could go to before I pick her up. She will probably run in at least 1, if not all 3.

Thanks again for the reply's.

[Brittguy]

It is nice to have to chase as few adult points as possible. I don't understand why you wouldn't run in puppy stake. They do not put out birds in puppy stake so there is no problem about bracemate messing up your dog on point.
If she is advanced as reported she could be entered in both puppy and derby at the same trial.

[Wagonmaster]

I agree it is nice to chase as few adult points as possible. To me, the FC is just a starting point. The quicker you can get it done the better. So I would try get Puppy and Derby points on the dog just to make the journey shorter. In GSP circles, the really good dogs move on to hour Championships rather than continuing to run in OGD or AA AKC weekend stakes, where you will run into a fair number of green broke dogs. An FC permanently qualifies GSP's for the GSPCA Nationals, and for all the hour stakes except the NGSPA NC, for that you have to have an hour NGSPA win. It may be a little different for you Brit guys, I understand your dogs need to requalify each year, so at the beginning of the year everyone is trying to get a qualifying win on the older dogs, then they are pulled. But the other thing that is different is that your hour stakes are cross-sanctioned as I understand it, that is, a win in an hour Brit stake qualifies the dog for the AKC Brit Nationals. So that would be the goal, if you have a good dog. Get it through the FC and move on to bigger and better things. Run it against the other highly accomplished, truly broke dogs and see how it does. Best of all see if you can find some wild bird trials to run it in. That is the top.

[jetjockey]

As I understand it the trials she will be running in are wild bird trials. I believe there is 2 in Iowa/Nebraska and 1 in S. Dakota before the trainer heads home from summer camp. I can't imagine not having a wild bird FT in S. Dakota. I believe the trainer has around 30 dogs with him at camp and many of those are AA and Gun field trial dogs. If he tells me she has the potential to be an AA dog or Gun Dog I will trust his judgment since he has a bunch of them at his kennel. To be perfectly honest field trailing her is second to her being my hunting buddy. BUT, if I have a dog that is good enough to be an AA or GD then I hate to not run her. Kinda like having Brett Favre on your beer league football team and not letting home go play in the NFL. If shes good enough, Id like to let her play! But not at the expense of losing my beer league QB! Derby trials are the first step, so I want to learn as much as I can.