Crossbreeds.....

[Turk]

The other topic I posted got me to thinking about different crosses I've seen. I certainly don't think there is any need to purposely crossbreed these days with all of the breeds there are to choose from, but I've some very, very nice dogs that were the result of an accidental breeding. One of the nicest crosses I've seen is between a Lab and a Border Collie.. I've seen a few of these.....Border Collies are very popular around here as are Labs (as they are everywhere), so I guess seeing some crosses of the two would be expected.. The Border Collie/lab crosses I've seen were extremely intelligent and were very nice gundogs as well as great family dogs. The ones I've seen were black, slightly smaller than a Lab with a smaller head and a lighter boned dog over all. They had a coat similar to a Lab's. We have watched friend's dogs for them quite often and over the years I've had a couple lab/BC crosses here for a week at a time.... I know a couple dogs isn't enough to draw any definite conclusions from, but based on the couple I've been around I'd not hesitate for a second to take one if I was looking for a nice dog and pedigree didn't matter. Rumor/Legend has it that today's Field-Bred English Springer is the result of crossing Springers with Border Collies years ago to improve their intelligence and trainability. Whether this is true or not, I have no idea but if you look at today's Springer from Field Lines it sure could be true..... They definitely could have been crossed as Field-Bred Springers don't look much like Springers from Show lines these days......they are very easy to tell apart. I sold a Springer pup to a guy years ago who had sheep and his dog would herd sheep for him.. He said he never trained the dog to do it, it just did it. Go figure.

What crosses have you all seen that you found interesting (good or bad )

[postoakshorthairs]

You might do a search. i think we just had a pretty similar spread about a month or two ago. I don't mean to discourage the topic just an FYI

[tommyboy72]

Ya we did because everyone but me thought there were enough breeds of gundog in the world to choose from but I would personally like to see some new breeds crop up. I watched the hunting show with Tom Knapp on the Outdoor Channel and they hunted over EP/Lab crosses that were really good working dogs and retrieved fantastically.

[Dave C]

I also like to see the odd cross out hunting and beining a lurcher fan i find the thinking of different crosses very interesting.
My favorite 2 gundogs are Labs and GWP's and have always thought the would make a very good cross, a few keepers in the dales are using them as upland dogs in season and as vermin dogs the rest of the year, in theory it makes sense, but as we all know it dosnt always turn out that way.

Dave.

[Turk]

Well, with all the "Labradoodles", "Goldenoodles", etc. we're seeing some interesting crosses and they are getting a good price for them, as they are the little lap dog crosses (the "Pugles", etc.).

[BellaDad]

This reminded me of a story from last week. My dog just turned a year old and I hadn't sent in her papers. They sat on the desk forever and I just never got around to it. Anyway, the one year point was the end of the line for FDSB so I sent it in. The papers came back fine and everything. My wife asked me, Well if we got papers for your dog (the GSP) why didnt' we get papers for my dog (a maltese/shihtzu cross). I responded, well technically he's a mutt. She didnt' quite get it so I had to explain.

My question and maybe it's been addressed somewhere already, but to me the main point in buying a purebred performance dog is to put yourself in the best situation for your desired outcome/traits for your dog. Now obviously a cross doesn't guarantee anything from a breed perspective so there is a risk there in not getting what you want but on top since (to my knowledge) non-purebred dogs can't compete in most AKC events, etc. then how do you prove if the parent's were even worth a spit the way that people look at pedigree's for purebreds?

[Greg Jennings]

IMHO, when people crossbreed, it's like breeding Marilyn Monroe and Albert Einstein hoping to get his brains and her looks. The problem is that it just doesn't work out that way.

As I understand it, the original hope for Labradoodles was a guide dog that was more hypoallergenic. I do know that I see that claim in advertising for litters. The bald fact is that the allergy is to a protein in the dog's skin and saliva.

[3Britts]

IMHO, when people crossbreed, it's like breeding Marilyn Monroe and Albert Einstein hoping to get his brains and her looks. The problem is that it just doesn't work out that way.

As I understand it, the original hope for Labradoodles was a guide dog that was more hypoallergenic. I do know that I see that claim in advertising for litters. The bald fact is that the allergy is to a protein in the dog's skin and saliva.

Oh, I don't know about that. I know that I'm allergic to short haired black dogs that shed. Causes me to react something terrible.

[birddogsunlimited]

i use to have a beagle bluehealer mix that was one of the best rabit dogs ive ever owned she out ran just about every one of my purebread beagles

[birddogger]

There is no doubt that there have been plenty of cross breeds that have been outstanding dogs. However, I would bet that there have been many more that have not. For myself, I will stick with the purebreds. BTW, I am not talking about the breeds that have been developed after decades of planning and studying, to create a breed of it's own. I am just not a fan of breeding a pointer to a lab, a walker to a beagle, etc., just to see what happens.

Charlie

[tfbirddog2]

I own a lab/weimer cross and would own one again missed out on one this summer and kick myself ofr it! She is a awesome dog more desire than you can think of just to please me from both breeds it has been a great 8 yrs with her and will be hard she is looking at retirement pretty soon.

[Dave C]

Un like lurcher breeding where you are crossing a Grayhound to a Terrier for eg expecting the speed of the greyhound and the staminar and toughness of the terrier (although you do sometimes get it the other way round) In gundogs you must breed gundog to gundog and really you might not have the perfect hunting style every time but you will get a decent gundog and the closer the two breeds the better the sucsess rate ie Sproker.

Dave.

[BdBHunts]

You may cross a collie lurcher with a bull/grey or terrier/grey to get certain attributes. Some people crossbred to get things that they want in a dog, look at hog dogs and some crosses there.

[Dave C]

There is no doubt you can get some excellent hunting cross breeds.
I dont think breeding gundog cross breeds would need kulling as much as some lurchers, thats as long as you bred gundog to gundog, because there hunting instincs would be simular.

Dave.

[BAYDOG]

What ya'll need to remember is , that at one time, some with'in the last 100 years or so, you're "PureBreed" was a Mutt and a cross, just some food for thought.

[ezzy333]

What ya'll need to remember is , that at one time, some with'in the last 100 years or so, you're "PureBreed" was a Mutt and a cross, just some food for thought.

Our purebreds were bred by individuals that had a goal in mind and culled any and all that didn't move in that direction. and then they were bred back on the same type for many generations while still being severely culled to produce a dog with the desired characteristics. And then many were further tweeked as time went on to produce our breeds of today. So in actuallity our dogs were never just mutts even though you might consider them that while in the deveolping years.

Ezzy

[tommyboy72]

Ezzy I am going to have to pose a question to you. Many of these dog breeds were developed in the 15 or 16 or 1700's in Europe. What do you really think the educational system of the world was like back in the dark ages? There was bubonic plague, a mini ice age, the Spanish Inquisition. Yes there were Da Vinci, Galileo, and Tesla but how many were self taught or learned through reading and experimentation. Seriously do you really think the developers of these breeds really understood genetics, COI, linebreeding, etc. I for one do not. I believe they took a couple of dogs who were good hunters and bred them hoping to get another good hunter. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it did not. Originally dogs were cross bred for their traits and abilities and what they could bring to the table (literally) not because they would make a cute designer breed or they were hypoallergenic or too hotten up or cool down a line. I think only in the last 100-150 years have breeders actually begun to try to develop and tweak breeds like we see today but the origins of many of these dogs were a chance mating or a planned pairing but based on the hunting abilities of each individual parent rather than breeding for a particular job such as upland hunting or waterfowl hunting or coon hunting. JMO

[ezzy333]

Ezzy I am going to have to pose a question to you. Many of these dog breeds were developed in the 15 or 16 or 1700's in Europe. What do you really think the educational system of the world was like back in the dark ages? There was bubonic plague, a mini ice age, the Spanish Inquisition. Yes there were Da Vinci, Galileo, and Tesla but how many were self taught or learned through reading and experimentation. Seriously do you really think the developers of these breeds really understood genetics, COI, linebreeding, etc. I for one do not. I believe they took a couple of dogs who were good hunters and bred them hoping to get another good hunter. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it did not. Originally dogs were cross bred for their traits and abilities and what they could bring to the table (literally) not because they would make a cute designer breed or they were hypoallergenic or too hotten up or cool down a line. I think only in the last 100-150 years have breeders actually begun to try to develop and tweak breeds like we see today but the origins of many of these dogs were a chance mating or a planned pairing but based on the hunting abilities of each individual parent rather than breeding for a particular job such as upland hunting or waterfowl hunting or coon hunting. JMO

Except for the Brit which was bred randomly by the French peasants on performance alone, all of the continental breeds were bred and developed by the kennel people who worked for the royality of the country of their orgin. These people lived and worked with the dog their whole life. Its all they did and I am sure many and probably most knew about as much about breeding their animals as we do today and possibly in some areas even more. They were people who had a single driving force and didn't have people pulling in all different directions looking for different qualities in the dogs they were producing. With a single goal or standard in place they were easily able to breed and cull to produce the dog they were trying to developin both type and performance.

So yes, I think they knew what they were doing, did it, and we have the proof of their abilities in the dogs we have today. We continue to change these dogs to meet our idea of the ultimate birddog. And this will continue for years to come as we find new or differing uses for the dogs and our concept of a better dog continues to change.

Ezzy

[3Britts]

Tommy,

Ezzy's right on this one. There are records of the Egyptian's breeding program for the Basenji that go much farther than those we have in europe. The hall of records at Oxford contain several shelves of dog breeding programs. They list which dog was bred to which dog, who owned each dog, how the dogs preform and so on. They bred with purpose.

[tommyboy72]

As far as the breeding of some of the breeds like the EP, Engl. Setter, Vizla etc. go there was another topic posted awhile back and I did some in depth research to find out where some of the dogs we have now came from and while they did mention some of the breeds used to create the breeds we have now and when the modern breeds inception was to the best of most knowledgable authorites on the the subject some of the breeds like the EP and the Engl. Setter there was no knowledge of where some of the dogs came from that were used to create them like the Spanish Pointer and some of the spaniels used to create the setters. There was also talk of cave paintings in Hungary of the Vizla with early hunters. I understand the point you guys are trying to make and to some extent I agree with you but in some instances I am not so sure because if you use one breed to create another breed you would think you would want to know where the original breed came from. And that cave painting I spoke dated to I believe the year 800 A.D. How much did they really know of breeding and pedigrees and using one canine to create another back then if they were using breeds with an unknown history to cross with another to create yet another? Just a question I am posing to the forum.

[ezzy333]

You have a point as far as the pointer and setter go but the continental breeds were developed later with a lot more info around yet today.

Ezzy

[3Britts]

The question that I would ask, and frequently do ask my students, where is the research being done. Too many people simply search the web, and do not go to the original records because gain access to them carries too many requirements. I was allowed to briefly visit them while doing research on my dissertation. The keeper who was assigned to me just happened to have a couple of welsh springers and thought that I might be interested.

I do need to add that I am not saying this to be snide in any way. The subject just interest me and I would like to read what others have found on the subject.