EP What line? best bird finders

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:04 pm

BoJack wrote:And my opinion is and I stand by it that not all Champions are produced by Champions.And pedigrees doesn't Make the dog.A Champions can come from the different genetic makeups of of dogs and their lines in 4 generations.It's what each brings to the genetic table,and they don't have to be Champions to be in a Champions pedigree.I had an old pro tell me years ago that some of his best dogs came from breeders who didn't know what they were doing.You can breed two dogs with Champions all through the pedigrees,doesn't mean you're going to end up with a Champion.

I think the old pro who said his best dogs came from breeders who didn't know what they were doing, may have been exaggerating or got very lucky. Or that may be the only dogs he had experience with. He may have never had a well bred dog. Either way, that is the exception and not the rule. If you want to increase your chances of getting a great dog, stick with the proven pedigrees, and breeders who know what they are doing when it comes to selective breeding.JMO

Then, when you find the right breeding, it is up to the trainer/handler to bring the greatness out.

Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:27 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:Ron, out of curiousity, do you think that Champions sire Champions because of breeding or because of the fact that those who own Champions have the money, time, means, and know how as well as the drive and determination to train more Champions? What I am asking is it the human factor involved or the animal factor as far as genetics, bird drive, determination, stamina, quality of nose, bird finding and handling ability, etc.? I think in some venues that a quality dog has the ability to throw a champion and in some venues not. In a BDC type format any dog regardless of genetics has an opportunity to win and perhaps even be a champ but in a horseback type venue then genetics probably plays a bigger part. Just my limited opinion though. I would like to hear what think though.

Tom, I know you asked Ron the question, but I would like to give my opinion. The human factor is very important, however, if a person does not have a dog with the drive, determination, etc. to work with, that dog will never be anything but mediocre at best and totally useless at worst. I believe genetics is what gives a dog these traits. I believe a mediocre trainer/handler could end up with a really good dog, if the genetics are there. Ofcourse, there are exceptions to everything.

As far as the BDC format, I totally agree with you.

Charlie

BrettBryan · Post by **BrettBryan** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:44 am

Bojack wrote:

You're talking all-age caliber dogs("over in the next county") dogs.Dogs that run Three hour heats at the National,and the coarse they run equals approx Ten miles I think.Not dogs for the average bird dog man.And some years they probably release a truckload of birds daily on the coarse to help supplement what birds are already on the grounds if the numbers have been low.And the time of day and scenting conditions has alot to do with who finds birds,Most times a dog that runs early in the day will find more birds.With the National It's weather and scenting conditions and luck of the draw as to who the bird finders are.Of coarse even in hunting conditions weather and scenting conditons apply.And then there's dogs that'll find birds when the others can't

Bojack,
Just about every major EP bloodline out there seems to come from these ("over the next county") bird dogs. (imo)
True, the day you draw plays a big part. Gamemaker has found plenty the last two years. He seems to find birds.

Back some years, Dunn's Fearless Bud could find them as well. Still see stuff out of that blood.

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:16 am

birddogger,
Didn't imply it was the Rule,I used the word "some".And the old pro is in the FTHOF.I agree with the last part of your post.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:59 am

tommyboy72 wrote:do you think that Champions sire Champions because of breeding or because of the fact that those who own Champions have the money, time, means, and know how as well as the drive and determination to train more Champions? What I am asking is it the human factor involved or the animal factor as far as genetics, bird drive, determination, stamina, quality of nose, bird finding and handling ability, etc.?

I believe that it begins with a strong bloodline to increase your chances of winning before the human factor comes in. That being said, dogs are dogs and two littermates can be as different from one another as night and day. Then secondly, like you said, alot depends on who's training and handling what dog. Like the old saying goes "you can't polish a turd".

Ron

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:03 pm

You got a point there. You can't polish a turd.

I think some $500 dogs have just a good a chance of making it as some $3000 dollar dogs though.

I have seen some polished brass that was just as beautiful as any polished gold I ever saw.

In my limited and amatuer at best opinion though sometime I would hope we are going to begin seeing some winning young dogs out of a new line of pointers. Certainly what we have now can't be the be all and end all. Someone has to be able to develop a new winning lineage sometime in the future. Surely the Millers, Fiddlers, Elhews, Honky Tonk Attitudes, and the rest of the old school lines can't be it forever. At least I would hope not. I know many breeders and trialers use these lines and cross them up to develop what they are looking for but I would hope that someday someone is going to devise a completely new line that is going to make it big and win and be successful hunting dogs. Heck they may even come from humble means or some good ole country boy from Missouri or Mississippi or somewhere surprising that just stumbles on a winning combination. At least I would like to think that's still possible anyway.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:46 pm

Let me add something else to the equation. What I hear being expressed is what lines produce more birds in trial competitions. Of course we all tend to be interested in what our goals are but I always question the fact that field trial winners are the best dogs going. I agree if I want a field trial winner I go to a line that wins. But on the other hand I think many of the plain old hunting dogs bred by the backyard breeder are some of the best dogs going as far as finding birds. They are bred for that purpose and they don't have to compromise their breeding with dogs that can run as well. A backyard breeder breeds just as good a dog for his purpose as the trial breeder does for his. And just as much thinking goes into it as they breed to their friends dog that finds the most birds.

I think you have to consider Tommy's point also. Trial winners come from people who have time and money enough to play games while the hunting dog in the backyard goes hunting every week and that is it. Maybe those dogs are just as good or better at trialing if their owners were interested. If this discussion was taking place in the caf'e in small town USA the talk would be about the best lines and not a single field trial dog would be included. To each his own.

Ezzy

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:53 pm

BoJack wrote:birddogger,
Didn't imply it was the Rule,I used the word "some".And the old pro is in the FTHOF.I agree with the last part of your post.

I see what you are saying, and I didn't mean to make it sound like the pro didn't know what he was talking about. But I think we agree that it is the exception and not the rule. I could have probably worded it better.

Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:07 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Let me add something else to the equation. What I hear being expressed is what lines produce more birds in trial competitions. Of course we all tend to be interested in what our goals are but I always question the fact that field trial winners are the best dogs going. I agree if I want a field trial winner I go to a line that wins. But on the other hand I think many of the plain old hunting dogs bred by the backyard breeder are some of the best dogs going as far as finding birds. They are bred for that purpose and they don't have to compromise their breeding with dogs that can run as well. A backyard breeder breeds just as good a dog for his purpose as the trial breeder does for his. And just as much thinking goes into it as they breed to their friends dog that finds the most birds.

I think you have to consider Tommy's point also. Trial winners come from people who have time and money enough to play games while the hunting dog in the backyard goes hunting every week and that is it. Maybe those dogs are just as good or better at trialing if their owners were interested. If this discussion was taking place in the caf'e in small town USA the talk would be about the best lines and not a single field trial dog would be included. To each his own.

Ezzy

I totally agree with this, but I believe the back yard breeders that produce great bird finders, are still using smart selective breeding and proven blood lines. A good blood line does not necessarily mean one that everybody has heard of and is producing champions. I am sure there are many great dogs out there, that are producing great dogs, that have never been used for competition, so people are not aware of them. Having said that, my point is still, smart selective breeding to proven producers, greatly increase your odds of getting a great dog. Genetics play a major role IMO.

Charlie

dudleysmith · Post by **dudleysmith** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:11 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:You got a point there. You can't polish a turd.

I think some $500 dogs have just a good a chance of making it as some $3000 dollar dogs though.
I have seen some polished brass that was just as beautiful as any polished gold I ever saw.

In my limited and amatuer at best opinion though sometime I would hope we are going to begin seeing some winning young dogs out of a new line of pointers. Certainly what we have now can't be the be all and end all. Someone has to be able to develop a new winning lineage sometime in the future. Surely the Millers, Fiddlers, Elhews, Honky Tonk Attitudes, and the rest of the old school lines can't be it forever. At least I would hope not. I know many breeders and trialers use these lines and cross them up to develop what they are looking for but I would hope that someday someone is going to devise a completely new line that is going to make it big and win and be successful hunting dogs. Heck they may even come from humble means or some good ole country boy from Missouri or Mississippi or somewhere surprising that just stumbles on a winning combination. At least I would like to think that's still possible anyway.

I think you are spot on, but most are so kennel blind they won't look elsewhere.

People thinks the more money the better the dog. that is not true at all

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:15 pm

birddogger wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Let me add something else to the equation. What I hear being expressed is what lines produce more birds in trial competitions. Of course we all tend to be interested in what our goals are but I always question the fact that field trial winners are the best dogs going. I agree if I want a field trial winner I go to a line that wins. But on the other hand I think many of the plain old hunting dogs bred by the backyard breeder are some of the best dogs going as far as finding birds. They are bred for that purpose and they don't have to compromise their breeding with dogs that can run as well. A backyard breeder breeds just as good a dog for his purpose as the trial breeder does for his. And just as much thinking goes into it as they breed to their friends dog that finds the most birds.

I think you have to consider Tommy's point also. Trial winners come from people who have time and money enough to play games while the hunting dog in the backyard goes hunting every week and that is it. Maybe those dogs are just as good or better at trialing if their owners were interested. If this discussion was taking place in the caf'e in small town USA the talk would be about the best lines and not a single field trial dog would be included. To each his own.

Ezzy
I totally agree with this, but I believe the back yard breeders that produce great bird finders, are still using smart selective breeding and proven blood lines. A good blood line does not necessarily mean one that everybody has heard of and is producing champions. I am sure there are many great dogs out there, that are producing great dogs, that have never been used for competition, so people are not aware of them. Having said that, my point is still, smart selective breeding to proven producers, greatly increase your odds of getting a great dog. Genetics play a major role IMO.

Charlie

you cant make a Ferrari with a couple yugo's can ya

dudleysmith · Post by **dudleysmith** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:19 pm

Anyone have pointers that have no known names in the pedigrees..I be interested in trying one if you have any pups...

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:04 pm

Anyone ever see Rockacre Blackhawk run? Ever see any of his off spring run (besides Strut)? What were they out of on the bottom side? Just wondering, I know he has been bred alot, just havent heard him mentioned in this thread?

dudleysmith · Post by **dudleysmith** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:09 pm

birdogg42 wrote:Anyone ever see Rockacre Blackhawk run? Ever see any of his off spring run (besides Strut)? What were they out of on the bottom side? Just wondering, I know he has been bred alot, just havent heard him mentioned in this thread?

i have saw a few...most very very stylish and had good run....I like it crossed with Miller pretty good..

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:16 pm

dudleysmith wrote:Anyone have pointers that have no known names in the pedigrees..I be interested in trying one if you have any pups...

I am sure that good hunting lines have many known names in the pedigrees for that venue. But the names may not be common to the field trial world. All I am saying is, you can have an excellent pedigree with no champions listed, simply because they were not ran in the trial venues. Although, I would venture to say, if you look hard enough, you will probably find some well known names in there somewhere, in many cases.

I am thinking we have steered away from the original thread. Imagine that.

Charlie

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:21 pm

birddogger wrote:
dudleysmith wrote:Anyone have pointers that have no known names in the pedigrees..I be interested in trying one if you have any pups...
I am sure that good hunting lines have many known names in the pedigrees for that venue. But the names may not be common to the field trial world. All I am saying is, you can have an excellent pedigree with no champions listed, simply because they were not ran in the trial venues. Although, I would venture to say, if you look hard enough, you will probably find some well known names in there somewhere, in many cases.

I am thinking we have steered away from the original thread. Imagine that.

Charlie

Not a problem Charlie, I love all this pointer talk! Keep it up!

dudleysmith · Post by **dudleysmith** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:23 pm

birddogger wrote:
dudleysmith wrote:Anyone have pointers that have no known names in the pedigrees..I be interested in trying one if you have any pups...
I am sure that good hunting lines have many known names in the pedigrees for that venue. But the names may not be common to the field trial world. All I am saying is, you can have an excellent pedigree with no champions listed, simply because they were not ran in the trial venues. Although, I would venture to say, if you look hard enough, you will probably find some well known names in there somewhere, in many cases.

I am thinking we have steered away from the original thread. Imagine that.

Charlie

No i am talkin about the dogs that pedigree consists of Bob's bird dog, Julie ann, Pepper sue. and names like this that some hunter has been breeding for years without the help of the field trial community....i know there are dogs out there like this finding them is the problem....

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:06 pm

Yes, it is hard to find them unless you know the owners/breeders and know and have hunted with the dogs. Another way would be to learn by word of mouth from other experienced bird hunters. Other than that, I don't know, since they are not going to come from the big kennels who are easy to find and easy to check records and references.

Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:39 pm

by tommyboy72 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:03 pm

You got a point there. You can't polish a turd.

I think some $500 dogs have just a good a chance of making it as some $3000 dollar dogs though.

This was exactly my point in one of my other posts. Money has absolutely nothing to do with it. You could have a dog given to you that would have just as good a chance as a $3000.00 dog. But the genetics still have to be there. The $3000.00 dogs you are talking about, are not really $3000.00 dogs, but I guess to somebody they are.

Anyway, I am talking about peigrees, not about how much money is spent on them. If you are patient, you can usually find a good breeding that will fit into most budgets.[Even mine]

Charlie

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:04 am

Point well taken Charlie.

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:06 am

Ezzy ,you simpley amaze me, you make it sound like every dog bred out of a F. C or field bred line runs off the end of the earth and every body that field trials is well to do . First off, probablly 80% or more of the contiental breeds that are FC bred will satisfy the average hunter and will generally run a close comfortable range. Dogs out of field trial stock will usually have a well established family tree.Your backyard breeder has very little chance of establishig a comprehensive family line, breeding a couple of litters a year. It is a well established fact a great number of quality meat dogs come from these well established field trial lines, just look at their pedigrees. I would encourage any person looking for a quality hunting dog to do his /her homework before purchasing any dog .The old wives tale that field trial stock runs to big is nonsense, furthermore if runs that big iam sure the breeder would trade back for another prospect. You have chimed in on "drag of the breed" conversations before your familar the process, Its a small percentage that make the field trial cut. Folks if your looking for a good meat dog ,go visit a field trialer youll get a good deal on a hunting prospect at half the price. Secondly, you might ought to go to a couple of field trials,most of the guys there put their pants on the same way as you and many of them are as common as you and me. Some of them may even be using their SS check for some weekend fun and commroderie.

BrettBryan · Post by **BrettBryan** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:34 am

birddog42 wrote:

Anyone ever see Rockacre Blackhawk run? Ever see any of his off spring run (besides Strut)? What were they out of on the bottom side? Just wondering, I know he has been bred alot, just havent heard him mentioned in this thread?

birddog42,
I had a pretty in depth post here on some of the traits of my Blackhawk dog. But, you know, i figure someone will start talking about Blackhawk throwing tri-colors and being part Setter. So, i'll just post a couple pictures of my son of Blackhawk and a Buckwheat bitch. I know what i have and what i like. I'll just let other people run what they like and talk about what they want to.

hankkennel%20001_jpg_9569.jpg

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:12 am

myerstenn wrote:Ezzy ,you simpley amaze me, you make it sound like every dog bred out of a F. C or field bred line runs off the end of the earth and every body that field trials is well to do . First off, probablly 80% or more of the contiental breeds that are FC bred will satisfy the average hunter and will generally run a close comfortable range. Dogs out of field trial stock will usually have a well established family tree.Your backyard breeder has very little chance of establishig a comprehensive family line, breeding a couple of litters a year. It is a well established fact a great number of quality meat dogs come from these well established field trial lines, just look at their pedigrees. I would encourage any person looking for a quality hunting dog to do his /her homework before purchasing any dog .The old wives tale that field trial stock runs to big is nonsense, furthermore if runs that big iam sure the breeder would trade back for another prospect. You have chimed in on "drag of the breed" conversations before your familar the process, Its a small percentage that make the field trial cut. Folks if your looking for a good meat dog ,go visit a field trialer youll get a good deal on a hunting prospect at half the price. Secondly, you might ought to go to a couple of field trials,most of the guys there put their pants on the same way as you and many of them are as common as you and me. Some of them may even be using their SS check for some weekend fun and commroderie.

Thanks for the compliment but I wasn't trying to amaze you or anyone else. I was just stating that we are talking with a bunch of trialers and naturally they are going to tell you which lines work best for them. Go talk to some local hunters and they will tell you which dogs work best for them and the answers will be completely different and I am not sure one is any better than the other as far as pointing out which dogs are the best.

Now I will tell what I have experienced over many years. The biggest complaint of the common weekend hunter is the dogs work to big. From the few that know what a trial bred dog is their first question is "your dogs don't have trial breeding do they". And for years mine had very little and what I did use were gun dogs and not the AA type. I did that because that is what produced the best dogs for the local hunting crowd market. And those dogs were about as good as any I witnessed at that time. Several of he dogs out of these lines went on to produce some of the best dogs in the country in both field and show venues when they got in the hands of someone interested in trialing and also could afford it.

I am not trying to run down big working dogs. I have them in my kennel. And they are nice dogs. But I can't say they are better dogs than many of the ones that I have had that didn't know what a trial was. The favorite dog that my boys always took hunting was a dog I bought as a 3 year old from a family that was showing him and he had never seen a bird but he turned out to be a fairly close working easily handled bird dog. He was a grandson of a DC with no titled dogs on the other side. My champion that was the first dog I finished on the bench was a wide ranging bird finder that was from a line of great hunting dogs that had show titles for several generations. He was a great dog that produced many nice pups that tended to range bigger than most liked.

Why am I saying all of this? I am just trying to point out that the great dogs in most peoples minds are the ones that perform or produce well for the venues that the owners enjoy. But that does not make them better than other dogs of a different venue. We have a insurgency of French Brits today because there was a market open for close working dogs that we in this country wasn't filling. Same goes for the GSP,setters, and even some pointers. Breeds tend to split because one type of dog does not fill the needs of everyone, especially when we ignore every type but what we like. And if I want a trial dog I would go to a trialer and if I wanted a close working gun dog I would look right here in the neighborhood at the dogs that excel in the small upland fields we have in the area.

Ezzy

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:59 pm

Im no trialer but run two dogs , soon to be three, that run perfect foot hunting range and are out of some hot rod trial lines. FWIW.

Any dog worth his salt will shorten right up and hunt for the gun.....you cant put run into em, but you can take it out.

My white dog will run 600 plus to the front in the prairie and work under 75 yards on the preserve (no voice or whistle needed)......smarts makes a dog do that imho.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:10 pm

birddog1968 wrote:Im no trialer but run two dogs , soon to be three, that run perfect foot hunting range and are out of some hot rod trial lines. FWIW.

My dogs are out of national field trial champions and they run great for me, FWIW. Most people I take hunting think they run too big. In heavy cover they have a point. Found my female on point over 800 yds away after looking for her for an hour. Suppose I should get a tracker but just haven't felt I could afford it. I just wish some of those old time breeders would have bred dogs you could hunt without a lot of extra equipment. But they probably had no idea a couple of hundred years ago that tracking equipment would be so expensive today. :roll:

Ezzy

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:57 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:Im no trialer but run two dogs , soon to be three, that run perfect foot hunting range and are out of some hot rod trial lines. FWIW.
My dogs are out of national field trial champions and they run great for me, FWIW. Most people I take hunting think they run too big. In heavy cover they have a point. Found my female on point over 800 yds away after looking for her for an hour. Suppose I should get a tracker but just haven't felt I could afford it. I just wish some of those old time breeders would have bred dogs you could hunt without a lot of extra equipment. But they probably had no idea a couple of hundred years ago that tracking equipment would be so expensive today. :roll:

Ezzy

Akc dont count

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:51 pm

Seems like I remember the sire of a bitch I had was a little Brittany AKC Dual Champion when he kicked the butt of all the best Pointers and Setters in a 3hr Championship a few years ago. Some one shoud have told him it doesn't count.

Ezzy

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:42 pm

What was the name of the dog and the 3 hr stake it won just out of curriosity? I wish I could have seen it.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:55 pm

NFC DC Pacolet's Cheyenne Sam

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:26 pm

oh, I thought you were talking about one a little more recently. Sam won the international indurrance shooting dog Championships in Ardmore OK if I remember correctly, but wasn't that back in the 70's? I kindal remember reading about that in an old Christmas issue of the field.

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:38 pm

"NFC DC Pacolet's Cheyenne Sam"
Didn't Delmar Smith run Sam back in the 70-80's? I know he ran all-age Britts back then and cleaned quite a few clocks with them in open all age trials.

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:16 pm

BoJack wrote:"NFC DC Pacolet's Cheyenne Sam"
Didn't Delmar Smith run Sam back in the 70-80's? I know he ran all-age Britts back then and cleaned quite a few clocks with them in open all age trials.

I am not sure it was Delmar but it could have been. It was a great win, not doubt about that. I will have to dig up my old Christmas issue. I think it is from the last 10 years and will report back if I find it

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:17 pm

BrettBryan wrote:birddog42 wrote:
Anyone ever see Rockacre Blackhawk run? Ever see any of his off spring run (besides Strut)? What were they out of on the bottom side? Just wondering, I know he has been bred alot, just havent heard him mentioned in this thread?
birddog42,
I had a pretty in depth post here on some of the traits of my Blackhawk dog. But, you know, i figure someone will start talking about Blackhawk throwing tri-colors and being part Setter. So, i'll just post a couple pictures of my son of Blackhawk and a Buckwheat bitch. I know what i have and what i like. I'll just let other people run what they like and talk about what they want to.
hankkennel%20001_jpg_9569.jpg

Brett, you need to listen to all the smack talk about the tri color and being part setter. You need to send that dog to MO! I will be a friend and pay for shipping! I have some kin folks that are from Covington and Atoka TN that will haul him to MO for you!

Mike

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:33 pm

If I remember reading correctly, there was a whole lot of training and checking blood levels on Sam when Delmar won that. A pretty good tutorial. I don't know crap about Britts but that was a good read.

I dont give a crap who that dogs out of Brett, that is a good looking SOB man...I like the way he's built, looks good and sturdy not so slight like some I have seen...nice dog.

Chip

BrettBryan · Post by **BrettBryan** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:55 am

birdogg42,

Ha! Man, you are talking my neck of the woods man. Atoka's about 15 to 20 minute drive for me. I have a couple buddies who live there.
Nah, i think i'm going to keep Hank for awhile. I've placed him in two trials out of the six i've run him in. NSTRA that is. He placed in a AF puppy stake while he was young. I need to campaign him a little more. He's a nice dog. I think he's going to be very competitive when i finally shoot enough birds down over him.

Chip,
Thanks man. He's not slight at all. He's kind of powerful type dog. Not real big though. somewhere between 52 to 54 pounds.

Thx for the compliments fellows. I appreciate it.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:24 pm

BoJack wrote:"NFC DC Pacolet's Cheyenne Sam"
Didn't Delmar Smith run Sam back in the 70-80's? I know he ran all-age Britts back then and cleaned quite a few clocks with them in open all age trials.

Yep and his son Rick were the trainers. It does show that a lot of dogs could compete and win if that is what someone wants to do with their dogs. That was my point, many many dogs of many breeds are capable if that is the goal we all were shooting for. Personally I do not want a Brittany that runs with a pointer. They are different breeds, bred for completely different type and style of hunting. Thats why I think it is so important to keep the breeds seperate and to insure the dogs we breed meet the standards of the breed instead of pretending they all are pointers and the only thing that matters is how big they can run. There are many other things just as important if we want to keep a Brit a Brit, or a GSP a Gsp.

By the way, Sam won the National show title the same year.

Ezzy

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:41 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
BoJack wrote:"NFC DC Pacolet's Cheyenne Sam"
Didn't Delmar Smith run Sam back in the 70-80's? I know he ran all-age Britts back then and cleaned quite a few clocks with them in open all age trials.
Yep and his son Rick were the trainers. It does show that a lot of dogs could compete and win if that is what someone wants to do with their dogs. That was my point, many many dogs of many breeds are capable if that is the goal we all were shooting for. Personally I do not want a Brittany that runs with a pointer. They are different breeds, bred for completely different type and style of hunting. Thats why I think it is so important to keep the breeds seperate and to insure the dogs we breed meet the standards of the breed instead of pretending they all are pointers and the only thing that matters is how big they can run. There are many other things just as important if we want to keep a Brit a Brit, or a GSP a Gsp.

By the way, Sam won the National show title the same year.

Ezzy

Delmar trained Sam and Rick Handled Sam in the trials

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:48 pm

ezzy333 wrote: It does show that a lot of dogs could compete and win if that is what someone wants to do with their dogs. That was my point, many many dogs of many breeds are capable if that is the goal we all were shooting for.

First, I think that extending one significant accomplishment from 30 years ago to many, many dogs is quite the stretch. But you do raise an important question - How do you convince the owners of the best All Age Brittanies to enter them in the AF Shooting Dog Championships and try to win some on the Pointers and Setters there?

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:11 pm

slistoe wrote:
" How do you convince the owners of the best All Age Brittanies to enter them in the AF Shooting Dog Championships and try to win some on the Pointers and Setters there?slistoe "

You probably don't.Maybe too much Bias and Politics over the years so they stick to their own Breed Championships huh?
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ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:03 pm

I think this is an interesting turn to this thread. Maybe a new one should be started?

Every so often the conversation will come up about when a shorthair will qualify for the National Championship at Ames. Now this is only my opinion but every time I hear about a particular shorthair almost qualified or might be able to qualify, I think who cares? If you want a pointer get a pointer. Why change a breed into something it isn't?

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:26 pm

ACooper wrote:I think this is an interesting turn to this thread. Maybe a new one should be started?

Every so often the conversation will come up about when a shorthair will qualify for the National Championship at Ames. Now this is only my opinion but every time I hear about a particular shorthair almost qualified or might be able to qualify, I think who cares? If you want a pointer get a pointer. Why change a breed into something it isn't?

My thoughts exactly. No point in having different breeds if they all are alike. I keep thinking maybe a pointer will be good enough some day to compete a Brittany or GSp National someday.

Ezzy

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:38 pm

BrettBryan wrote:birdogg42,

Ha! Man, you are talking my neck of the woods man. Atoka's about 15 to 20 minute drive for me. I have a couple buddies who live there.
Nah, i think i'm going to keep Hank for awhile. I've placed him in two trials out of the six i've run him in. NSTRA that is. He placed in a AF puppy stake while he was young. I need to campaign him a little more. He's a nice dog. I think he's going to be very competitive when i finally shoot enough birds down over him.

Chip,
Thanks man. He's not slight at all. He's kind of powerful type dog. Not real big though. somewhere between 52 to 54 pounds.

Thx for the compliments fellows. I appreciate it.

Brett what is your blackhawk dog out of on the bottom side? I have a buddy who has ran a few trials in Bethel Springs TN.

BrettBryan · Post by **BrettBryan** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:11 am

birddog42,

Hank's out of a Rock Acre Buckwheat bitch. Buckwheat was Blackhawks sire. So, he's basically double bred Buckwheat.

I may know your buddy. Does he run a brittany? There's a new fellow that started running this year. He's probably been to more trials than i have this year. He's from Atoka and i think his name is Mark Johnson. He placed his brit. in a trial up in Middle TN about a month ago.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:35 pm

ezzy333 wrote: I keep thinking maybe a pointer will be good enough some day to compete a Brittany or GSp National someday.

You're joking right?

Ron

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:11 pm

So are the GSP and Brittany National like the Division 2 national championship in college football or the NIT in college basketball?

It's a nice tournament for those that were not good enough to make a BCS appearance or a Final Four appearance but not really what you were competing for when you started out. Just curious because I am not a trialer.

Seems to me dogs of all pointing breeds should be stacked up against each other and a set of procedures that encompasses judging for all breeds of pointing dogs be written and see which breed comes out on top. Make these procedures where they are not open to interpretation but concrete so there is no reason to blame the judges and then there would be a concrete winner. See which breed comes out on top consistently and go from there. I agree that some breeds are better for specific tasks than others but with most of us owning pointing dogs the bottom line is we want dogs to find birds, point birds, hold birds and then retrieve them to us after we shoot them. Shouldn't be too hard to develop rules for that should it? JMO

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:21 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:Seems to me dogs of all pointing breeds should be stacked up against each other and a set of procedures that encompasses judging for all breeds of pointing dogs be written and see which breed comes out on top. Make these procedures where they are not open to interpretation but concrete so there is no reason to blame the judges and then there would be a concrete winner. See which breed comes out on top consistently and go from there. I agree that some breeds are better for specific tasks than others but with most of us owning pointing dogs the bottom line is we want dogs to find birds, point birds, hold birds and then retrieve them to us after we shoot them. Shouldn't be too hard to develop rules for that should it?

That would be NSTRA and no breed dominates. Pointers, GSP's. Britt's, and Setter's are all very competitive. You should give it a try.

Ron

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:04 pm

Ron R wrote:
tommyboy72 wrote:Seems to me dogs of all pointing breeds should be stacked up against each other and a set of procedures that encompasses judging for all breeds of pointing dogs be written and see which breed comes out on top. Make these procedures where they are not open to interpretation but concrete so there is no reason to blame the judges and then there would be a concrete winner. See which breed comes out on top consistently and go from there. I agree that some breeds are better for specific tasks than others but with most of us owning pointing dogs the bottom line is we want dogs to find birds, point birds, hold birds and then retrieve them to us after we shoot them. Shouldn't be too hard to develop rules for that should it?
That would be NSTRA and no breed dominates. Pointers, GSP's. Britt's, and Setter's are all very competitive. You should give it a try.

Ron

This was my answer too. You beat me to it.

Ezzy

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:12 pm

I believe most AF trials, the National, Free for all and National shooting dog. international endurance...etc etc are open to any breed that can qualify, and even those not registered with the field dog stud book, which is not the case with AKC trials.....so the notion that the minority breeds are being held back is pretty weak if you ask me. I beleive that if there were a bunch of brits, ESP's(

) or Red setters capable of winning they would be entered in and win the qualifers.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:48 pm

+1 on NSTRA exhibiting a very level playing field.

Some years ago, when NSTRA trials were reported in the American field, I actually did a little exercise. I tabulated all of the placing dogs, by breed for all of the NSTRA trials reported that year. I then tabulated the number of dogs of each breed that were entered in the trials.

I found that, each of the four major breeds, Pointer, E.Setter, Brittany and GSP, placed in virtually direct correlation with the total number of that breed that was entered in trials. In other words, if 25 % of the entries were pointers, pointers took about 25% of the placements. The same was true of all four of the breeds I mentioned. There were so few representatives of the other pointing breeds that they were not worth tabulating.

I was actually kind of surprised by the results. A couple of years later, again, just to satisfy my curiosity, I did the same tabulations on the data from that year. The correlation beteween percentage of entries and percentage of placements was still valid.

So, for two separate years, the data indicated that a representative of each of the four pointing breeds won NSTRA placements with roughly the same frequency that they were entered.

I don't know if that proves or disproves anything about how good one breed is versus another. I have never participated in NSTRA, so I have no basis for commenting on how good a NSTRA dog is or how they compare to dogs that participate in other venues. T

he only thing I think it proves, is that each of the four pointing breeds has an equal chance of placing in the NSTRA venue.

RayG

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:10 am

BrettBryan wrote:birddog42,

Hank's out of a Rock Acre Buckwheat bitch. Buckwheat was Blackhawks sire. So, he's basically double bred Buckwheat.

I may know your buddy. Does he run a brittany? There's a new fellow that started running this year. He's probably been to more trials than i have this year. He's from Atoka and i think his name is Mark Johnson. He placed his brit. in a trial up in Middle TN about a month ago.

Dustin Shepard. He is from MO. He runs pointers. A HT Gigalo male, and a Black Magic Blaze male. They are very nice dogs for being as young as the are (just a year old). I believe that every time he has ran in TN he has been braced with Bill Moore.