Question about gun dog vs. shooting dog.

[fuzznut]

Here are some facts about the number of dogs run in AKC pointing dog field trials....
2001- 35,954
2002- 37,209
2003-36,004
2004-36,909
2007- 34,318
2008-34,546

So, yes it appears that numbers of dogs entered in general are down.
Last fall, there were a couple of trials cancelled on the east coast for lack of entries. Economy? Lack of interest?
I know our club cancelled our trial, that was mostly a personal thing for the person who runs the event (me) and had nothing to do with entries or lack thereof. Our trial always has more dogs than time to run them.

I can think of a few people who started with their lowly little show bred dogs in 30 min. AKC stakes, that have gone on to do very well in the NGSPA hour CH's. And I can think of more than a few that used to be high flyers that you just don't see around anymore.

For the sport, there is nothing to be gained by poo-poohing any of the events, AF or AKC, 30 min. or 1 hr, Gun dog or Shooting dog. The guy entering his little puppy in a walking puppy stake today could very well be the owner of a National Champion down the road. Laugh at him, demean his dog and I can about guarantee he won't stick around long enough to learn to appreciate the upper levels of field trials.

That white ribbon handed to a new guy for a 4th place, is just as important to him as that hour Ch trophy is to you.
Fuzz

[Joe Amatulli]

Well let me see if I understand you right Bernee, you are not denying that there are trials in the northeast that are manipulated, and if I don’t like it I shouldn’t compete at the AKC level? Like I said this is not true with all AKC trials in the northeast, just some of them. It seems to me that when you except cheating, and as far as I am concerned, that is what it is, then I think the ethics and morels of these people can most definitely come into question and minimizes the game for all. You know which trials I am talking about and all I will say is when was the last time you saw me their. I will also say that as far as I am concerned dogs that are finishing that way cheapens the title for all.

Doug you are right, the competition in west/Midwest in much more and there is no finishing a poodle in those areas. I judged and compete through out the country, more competition brings out better competitors.

Karen a lot of what you said is very true with GSP’s also and let me say very well put. The only thing that I will add is the pace, you are kind of right except that, yes you generally will get better handlers in the AF and most judges will let you handle your dog the way you see fit and that usually means changing your pace as you see fit. In AKC very often a judge will tell you to either slow down or will simply stop looking. The other thing that I will add is that AKC it’s all about the rules, AF it’s all about the dog.

[PkerStr8Tail]

From the AFTCA Guidelines (which have been accepted by American Field):

Marking Flight Of Birds
Should a dog be penalized for movement in marking flight of the birds?
—No. A good dog should be intense in pointing and minimal movement in marking flight of the
birds is an extension of that intensity. Movement of the head or wheeling in the direction of flight is
permissible, but there should be no significant forward motion of the rear feet in the direction of the
bird's flight. What constitutes significant motion must be left to the discretion of the judge. A judge
would most certainly not want to throw out the best dog in the stake just because he moved one inch
more than what is specified.

Neil

Thanks for finding and posting this. This is what I was talking about. In a weekend trial with the right Judge the dog may get away with turning to mark as permitted in the rules, but in a major championship that dog will be done. This is what needs to be discussed and corrected in this sport. Either change the rule or judge it as the rules are written. If there is anyone that has ever hunted with a birddog and when the birds are flushed they would want there dog to stand like a statue as the birds fly behind them please tell me why. If I remember correctly, if you read further it even says that the spin to mark is a desirable trait showing desire. However, in trails( at least major championships) dogs will be thrown out for this.

[PkerStr8Tail]

I thought it was interesting that many of the pointers in the pics of the National championship did not appear to have a 12 oclock tail when on point. They all had them up to some degree but not the 12 oclock we hear discussed so often.

Ezzy

I would agree. The pictures posted during the National trial shows the real deal and not the pictures the owners post in the field or on their website of the dog looking great. Hooked tails, low tails, low front ends. Some of these are early in the brace too and not just end of the brace where you can argue that the dog is worn out and contributing the the lack of style. It makes you wonder why so many people run to breed to these AA dogs. Don't get me wrong, these dogs have many desirable traits, but generally style is not one of them.

[Neil]

Three hours of mud caked on the tail tends to bring it down some.

People breed to All-Age dogs not just for style, but for all the other more important traits of a bird dog, still for an hour most have style to burn.

[ElhewPointer]

Down at the Missouri Open Shooting Dog Championship last year, I was riding and Dean Lord was running a dog, and doing a nice job. At about the 40 mark, dog goes on point, Dean flushes a nice big covey. Half the birds fly right over the dog. The dog looked hard over his left shoulder and his front left paw may have moved an inch. Dean didn't even look at the judge, just said, "thanks, for looking at him" and picked up the dog. The room for error is so minimal its almost gotten a little crazy. On the other hand, i've seen at AKC events, a dog dang near do a 90 degree turn to mark the bird and they went on with the dog. As I stated in the ealier post, I think the scouting of dogs in both venues is quite different as well. JMO

I don't disagree with your observation as to how AF trials are judged. I have always thought it is crazy to ask a dog that has a bird fly 1 foot over the top of its head to not move a muscle, so one day we reviewed the rule book. I don't remember the exact wording, but what I remember reading was that it said a dog can turn to mark. In fact, it is a sign of a dog with high bird desire and not only is it not a negative, but a desirable trait.(of course that can not move towards the bird) No one judges this way, but many rules have drifted over time. I would rather see a dog that is acting naturally than see a robot that works bird mechanically. Mechanical wins though.

I will agree with you mechanical does win. However, my definition of mechanical is different. Mechanical or robotic to me is running down a path and pointing birds thrown 10' off of it. And when the handler gathers up the dog and drags him from spot to spot. That to me is man made and robotic. I want a dog that knows how to dig in, find birds and still know how to be to the front. Your definition of mechanical to me is just being a broke dog.

Tak,
Actually, im afraid that the dog didn't catch the bird or anything else like that. I was 20' from him. I'm not saying its right, im just saying how it is.

There are a lot of rules in all sports. Im sure in the rule book of the NBA there is something in there about traveling. But, not enforced.

[Elkhunter]

So if a judge at a Championship tells you to pick your dog up because he spun to mark a bird, but made absolutely no move to chase the bird, can you show him the rule? Or is that pretty much a waste of time?

[PkerStr8Tail]

I will agree with you mechanical does win. However, my definition of mechanical is different. Mechanical or robotic to me is running down a path and pointing birds thrown 10' off of it. And when the handler gathers up the dog and drags him from spot to spot. That to me is man made and robotic. I want a dog that knows how to dig in, find birds and still know how to be to the front. Your definition of mechanical to me is just being a broke dog.

A broke dog to me is one that doesn't advance toward the bird to retrieve until directed to by the handler or collared out by the handler depending on the game your playing. If a dog is standing facing north lets say and the birds fly over their head to the south and the dog stands like a statue with no head movement or turning the body to mark, that is mechanical to me. That is man made and is not natural. In a real hunting situation how would that dog go retrieve when they have no idea where the birds went or went down? The desire of the dog should want to mark that bird, but a broke dog will not move towards it till directed to do so by the handler. However, this is not how AF trials are judged. Hypothetically, if two dogs had a similar race and number of bird finds(I know there would be slight differences) but if they did and one dog stood like a statue and one turned to mark, the dog that stood mechnical would win every time. Of course if you want to be in any game, you have to accept how it will be judged and adjust to those conditions. I am just saying if I was king for a day, I would follow the rules as they are written and not penalize a dog that shows natural intesity. JMO.

[PkerStr8Tail]

So if a judge at a Championship tells you to pick your dog up because he spun to mark a bird, but made absolutely no move to chase the bird, can you show him the rule? Or is that pretty much a waste of time?

You can't argue with them or should I say shouldn't. Unfortunately, during a trial is not the time to argue the interpretation of the rule book. The problem with the dog moving at all is that it opens up the opportunity for the judge to say it moved forward slightly. This is why I think the judging has moved to this way. Any movement is black and white and requires no judgement. Turning to mark now becomes more grey. Did they only spin or did they spin and move forward?

[Sharon]

So if a judge at a Championship tells you to pick your dog up because he spun to mark a bird, but made absolutely no move to chase the bird, can you show him the rule? Or is that pretty much a waste of time?

Well. It depends how many beers you've had. Not recommended. The judge will be ticked and find another reason not to place you. He will also remember your face. If you do decide to do that, do it in private.

[Sharon]

"What does it take to break into coon dog competition??...a Plott hound, a pair of rubber boots, a headlamp and a day job so you can train your dog at night. One also has to enjoy thrashing around in the underbrush in the dark. Did it once...I'll pass."

Hilarious. This is what I plan to do when I turn 65.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUAS8s0tQSM&NR=1

[Ron R]

By contrast, what does it take to break into coon dog competition??...a Plott hound, a pair of rubber boots, a headlamp and a day job so you can train your dog at night. One also has to enjoy thrashing around in the underbrush in the dark. Did it once...I'll pass.

You're going to need a Walker hound if you plan on winning.

Ron

[Neil]

So if a judge at a Championship tells you to pick your dog up because he spun to mark a bird, but made absolutely no move to chase the bird, can you show him the rule? Or is that pretty much a waste of time?

I have long since given up on trying to educate judges, I just don't run under them again.

The real problem is so few of them have actually hunted wild birds,

Neil

[MTO4Life]

WOW!!! I didn't expect this many responses! It is definately an interesting read. I'll be interested to see how my dog runs in AF shooting dog trials in the future vs. AKC gundog stakes. She's a britt, so many of the trials are closed to britts (they are easier to get to vs some open stakes is the reason). That being said, I really enjoy heading to an open breed stake as it is fun to see the different breeds. We'll see what the future holds. Bottom line is I'll try many venues as I just enjoy seeing my dog work, and I think that is the reason we should be attending these events.

Thanks to all for the comments, and feel free to keep them coming!

[dudleysmith]

So if a judge at a Championship tells you to pick your dog up because he spun to mark a bird, but made absolutely no move to chase the bird, can you show him the rule? Or is that pretty much a waste of time?

I have long since given up on trying to educate judges, I just don't run under them again.

The real problem is so few of them have actually hunted wild birds,

Neil

Never a truer statement has ever been written on a computer bird dog messageboard.

[ezzy333]

One of the things I have always wondered is if trialing is really about improving bird dogs why are there rules that are exactly opposite of what a bird dog should do when hunting? It just seems we get carried away with so many things. 12 o'clock tails, not marking a falling bird, how far a dog runs, these are just a few of the things.

I really think we have lost our way when we have to make up silly rules that fly in the face of what we expect from our dogs in the field.

Ezzy

[Casper]

Ezzy, FTing isn't about hunting. More an evaluation of the dogs to find the best we can. To breed a better more biddable and attractive dog. They are performance events.

When I take my dogs hunting I still want the same as I do when at a field trial. I want endurance, stamina, class and style. I want them driving forward searching all likely places that they might find birds. Using their brains to intelligently apply themselves to the terrain and game we pursue.

JMO

[shags]

WOW!!! I didn't expect this many responses! It is definately an interesting read. I'll be interested to see how my dog runs in AF shooting dog trials in the future vs. AKC gundog stakes. She's a britt, so many of the trials are closed to britts (they are easier to get to vs some open stakes is the reason). That being said, I really enjoy heading to an open breed stake as it is fun to see the different breeds. We'll see what the future holds. Bottom line is I'll try many venues as I just enjoy seeing my dog work, and I think that is the reason we should be attending these events.

Thanks to all for the comments, and feel free to keep them coming!

Forgive me if I'm not getting it right, but aren't AF Brittany trials basically the same people and dogs at AKC trials, or maybe even dual-sanctioned events? If so, you probably won't see much difference between the two. The judges might have a somewhat different standard which would be reflected in the placements, but I'd guess you'll see the same old same old.
IMO if you want to experience the difference, enter an AF/AFTCA trial that is sponsored by and 'AF' club with a predominantly pointer/setter entry.
The workings of the Brittnay World remain largely a mystery to me, so again, please disregard if I'm mistaken

[ezzy333]

Ezzy, FTing isn't about hunting. More an evaluation of the dogs to find the best we can. To breed a better more biddable and attractive dog. They are performance events.

When I take my dogs hunting I still want the same as I do when at a field trial. I want endurance, stamina, class and style. I want them driving forward searching all likely places that they might find birds. Using their brains to intelligently apply themselves to the terrain and game we pursue.

JMO

You are exactly right. It isn't about hunting. And it is an evaluation of the dogs to find the best trial dog. Biddable and attractive come from other venues quite often.

I agree completely with what we want when hunting but those qualities get judged when you are hunting and at least I pick the best hunter to breed to and not the dog that doesn't mark a falling bird or even if it has a 12 o'clock tail though we all want it up to some degree.

I am not against trials as they are fun but I still think we have lost our way if we are still interested in breeding a better bird dog that anyone can enjoy hunting over or even going to the kennel and having to look at them. There are some beautiful dogs running in the trials but there are some about as attractive as a mud fence.

Ezzy

[Karen]

Shags, you are correct. An "AF Brittany Trial" is virtually identical to an AKC trial. There is no Brittany circuit in the Field. Even many of our SD Championships are judged solely by individuals who run AKC only, and therefore, are judged using gun dog standards. Many are double-billed as OLGD/shooting dog classics or championships. You have to know your judges to know which standard will be used. But you really have to go to a trial put on by an AF longtail club....and preferrably one that some of the big pros go to, to really see the difference.

[slistoe]

You are exactly right. It isn't about hunting. And it is an evaluation of the dogs to find the best trial dog.

Perhaps I don't rightly know how to hunt, or perhaps the folks around here don't rightly know how to trial, but IME my absolute best hunting dogs have also been my best trial dogs. I think I speak for most others on the circuit if I extended the sentiment to them.

[RayGubernat]

Folks -

It seems we may be getting off track and lost in the minutia. It happens.

As far as trialing in general, I do believe there is a genuine interest in finding the very best dogs to carry on and carry forward.

What sometimes, it seems is forgotten, or de-emphasiszed is this purpose. When we start debating about things like a 12 o'clock tail, we need to remember and to remind all the others in the discussion, that whether the tail is 10 o'clock or 12 o'clock only really matters when ALL of the other things that are waaaay more important, are already there.

Without the proper ground application, without the intensity, without the grit and endurance, without the unquenchable desire to to find birds, without the accurate location, etc, etc, ...the style on point is pretty much irrelevant and immaterial.

If we focus on those style points at the expense of the things that really matter, are we any better than the show dog folks who decide which is the best Irish setter by how much belly hair it carries?

RayG

[ezzy333]

Folks -

It seems we may be getting off track and lost in the minutia. It happens.

As far as trialing in general, I do believe there is a genuine interest in finding the very best dogs to carry on and carry forward.

What sometimes, it seems is forgotten, or de-emphasiszed is this purpose. When we start debating about things like a 12 o'clock tail, we need to remember and to remind all the others in the discussion, that whether the tail is 10 o'clock or 12 o'clock only really matters when ALL of the other things that are waaaay more important, are already there.

Without the proper ground application, without the intensity, without the grit and endurance, without the unquenchable desire to to find birds, without the accurate location, etc, etc, ...the style on point is pretty much irrelevant and immaterial.

If we focus on those style points at the expense of the things that really matter, are we any better than the show dog folks who decide which is the best Irish setter by how much belly hair it carries?

RayG

Right on!!!!

Ezzy

[Neil]

Ezzy,

I can think of only a few written rules that do not lead to the best dog, it is how they are interpreted and the unwritten ones that are leading to the problems as I see them.

Neil

[ezzy333]

Ezzy,

I can think of only a few written rules that do not lead to the best dog, it is how they are interpreted and the unwritten ones that are leading to the problems as I see them.

Neil

Neil,

I can'targue with that.

Ezzy

[raven3]

Ray
Nicely put!!!