You can take it out, but you can't put it in them.

[Birddogz]

Everyone has heard this old saying. While I agree that a dog must be born with the proper genetics for prey drive, I am currently having trouble helping a friend. My friend has an EP and a GSP. Both are excellent dogs. He is pulling his hair out with their range. When we hunt Sharptails they want to run at 6-800 yards. He wants them at 2-300 yards. When we hunt pheasants in thick cover, he wants his dogs within 80-100 yards, and they consistently run bigger. He has shocked them to the point that I told him to stop. I know many of you are going to say to let the dogs hunt, but he isn't going to do it. His dogs typically get so far away when hunting that they become a serious liability when trying to catch them. They listen well when they are in ear shot, but once about 200-250 yards out they seem to not be able to hear him. Often times we completely lose them in big marshes. We both hunt with an Astro, but he is constantly blowing his whistle, and it really upsets my friend. He is constantly apologizing to me for making noise, and I feel bad for him, but all the yelling and whistles is annoying. He is a good friend, and I really enjoy hunting with him. He loves his dogs, and will never get rid of them. He has run his dogs with a weighted check, and that seems to slow them down, but when it comes off, they are back to their same old tricks. I am at a loss. I jokingly told him to buy a horse, and he gave me a dirty look and then laughed. He clearly doesn't think his situation is at all funny.

[Sharon]

The age of the dogs would make a difference in suggestions.

I'm sure the more experienced will have training suggestions.

Personally I would stop beating my head against the wall and beating up on the dogs and start over with a close working dog. It's the price he has to pay for not researching /observing his dogs' parents, before he bought them

[postoakshorthairs]

I'll let the more experienced speak to the training, but I would be interested to know if the dogs run big like that in the absence of other dogs. I have seen several dogs that would adjust to terrain, listen to commands etc. much better by themselves versus with bracemates....especially young dogs. The dogs i've seen like this seem to be doing more running/racing of each other than hunting. Just Curious.

[Birddogz]

The dogs are 2 and 3. The thing is, he was told by the breeders that while they were FT stock, they would hunt how he wanted them to. I lobbied for a NASTRA dog, but he was intent, and believed the breeders. I know that there are FT guys on here that have dogs that hunt one way when they are on horseback, and another when foot hunting. I'm wondering how they get them to stay closer when on foot.

[Birddogz]

I'll let the more experienced speak to the training, but I would be interested to know if the dogs run big like that in the absence of other dogs. I have seen several dogs that would adjust to terrain, listen to commands etc. much better by themselves versus with bracemates....especially young dogs. The dogs i've seen like this seem to be doing more running/racing of each other than hunting. Just Curious.

They seem to run about the same with or without each other. What really sucks is when 1 runs 45 degrees to the left and one runs 45 degrees to the right. We end up almost a mile away from each other trying to catch the dogs. I am always afraid that they will get away from us and get hit by a car.

[Karen]

So are these dogs listening to anyone or are they hunting for themselves?

[Birddogz]

They listen very well when they are 250 and in. What frustrates my friend is when they get over a hill or out to 250 plus, they start not listening. If he shocks them, they will come back. But sometimes we can't see them, and the Astro will say they are still running. When he shocks them, sometimes they are trying to find us, and run past us to our side. We must look comical as we are jumping up and down waving our arms trying to get their attention. When they do see us they come running. They just seem to want to hunt far away from us. What is very frustrating is flushing birds while your dogs are out at 800 yards. Now, they do find birds. We used a 4 wheeler one day, and killed birds well. He is just frustrated, because he likes to hunt all types of cover. He lost one of his dogs in Wisconsin for 3 days. He finally found him at a house. He didn't have his Astro yet. If he didn't have his Astro, I believe both would be lost every trip.

[kninebirddog]

Yard work
teach cues

Dogs are hunting for themselves by the way it sounds...if you turn the dogs should turn with you no matter if they don't see you they should come around and make themselves seen...not necessarily come all the way to the owner/handler but to the front and make an appearance


Quartering exercises teach cues which then over lay to the field with the e collar
and if you need to cue the dog start off light but go up if they do not respond once the respond go back down this way the dog learns that if they do not bend and go with you there will be a price to pay

I am going over this with a young dog right now the owner let her self hunt a lot and she easily will get out over 500 plus yards with no regards to where the rest of the pack is

I have her know she will get out to about 200 yards and I will change directions she stop and look out where she wants to go I give her a bit to commit of she wants but after some thinking she realizes that going with me is in her best interest

I use a strong base of the Rick Smith method helps keep a dog learning to be a partnership in the field all starting with good ole boring Yard work with a direction and a purpose

[Birddogz]

So change directions when they get out to 200, and make the dog go to your front. Start with 1, and move up 2345? Then repeat the direction change until the dog starts to want to know where you are? This sounds promising, as his dogs will listen until they get out of ear shot.

[cody]

Do they find birds when they are out like that or are they just running?

[kninebirddog]

I do field exercises where i change directions making zip zag patterns in the field when the young dog crosses the 10 and 2 posistion respectively I change direction I do the same with the lead and the check cord then the e collar
I will just tap tap tap until i get the bend with me
if the dog begins to run with me there is no need to tap on the button

Now If i ma standing still this is the cue for my dogs to come into me and again I start this in the yard work when I stop come to me If I am moving move with me

this is a link to the process I use with the e collar how i view it and use it

hopefully will shed light on the process i am working with the dogs ... Understanding the E collar

[AzDoggin]

Possible the two dogs are modeling/competing with each other also, although I have to agree with knine on the most likely root cause. Knine's definition of the problem provides a solution also - more and/or different training.

Fortunately, your friend has an entire off season to try to get a better handle on the situation. I think he may end up working them individually until he gets each dog ranging they way he likes it. Then try them together...and go back again to the training as necessary.

I remember I used to drop my young Britt off a mile or more away from the area we were hunting, just so she could run some of the "boogeries" out of her before we started.

I hunted her with a roop loop trailing from her collar alot in that first season as well to keep her moving a little slower. In hindsight, I think that was just compensation for my inadequate training.

Hey Birdogz - there's that "quartering" thing again! Oh, and FYI - quartering is also part of NAVDA's judging points, IIRC.

[Neil]

There are guys that go through 100 dogs looking for 2 like these.

As suggested, train and then run them separately, teach them to stay within whatever range he wishes, they will learn to use that drive to find birds in the prescribed area. Have him use a lot of recall, often, never let them get beyond his comfort range, not even for a little bit. They will learn.

It is a shame really, I would be happy to hunt from 4-wheeler, but they are his dogs and ought to please him.

Neli

[Birddogz]

I told him to get a horse! I can't imagine how big they would run if you encouraged a big run. WOW!

[NWCORNER]

There are guys that go through 100 dogs looking for 2 like these.

Neli

Exactly. If they're honest and find birds, I'll take 'em.

Feel bad for your buddy but IMHO it's better than the opposite. Good Luck.

Jake

[Birddogz]

There are guys that go through 100 dogs looking for 2 like these.

Neli

Exactly. If they're honest and find birds, I'll take 'em.

Feel bad for your buddy but IMHO it's better than the opposite. Good Luck.

Jake

What is the opposite? Listening instead of not listening? LOL just kidding, I know what you meant.

[snips]

Have they been formally trained steady on theirt birds..That would help on the whole control aspect. The thing you want is a dog that stands his birds no matter how far he ranges.

[vzkennels]

Agreed 100% BREAK the dogs.That alone will take some of the range out of them & solve the problem even if they do range out past his comfort zone.
Once they are broke he will have more control & be able to keep them where he wants them.

[Birddogz]

When they point, they will not move. They hold point very well! It is just in a different county.

[tommyboy72]

I actually have to agree with Neil on this one. Set a range and enforce it like a dictator with force if necessary. If they exceed the range shock them even if they exceed it by just a little bit. I don't mean take a rangefinder with you but use your best judgement as to range and keep them in your comfort zone. After 5 or 6 runs they should begin to get the picture about where you want them.

[Sharon]

Remember the original post; "He has shocked them to the point that I told him to stop." quote

[Birddogz]

Sharon, you are right. Handling these dogs can be a pain. I will pass on the info. I think these dogs need to listen , no matter the range. If you allow them any range, they are gone! They are the most stubborn dogs I have ever seen.

[Neil]

Sharon, you are right. Handling these dogs can be a pain. I will pass on the info. I think these dogs need to listen , no matter the range. If you allow them any range, they are gone! They are the most stubborn dogs I have ever seen.

As you describe it, I don't think it "stubborn" as much as "independent desire to find birds", after all they are the ones with the nose and the genetics to find birds, I don't, and obviously they don't think they should be steered into birds, turn them loose, hang on, and they will take you to the birds. In their own way, they are cooperating. I think you and your buddy need to appreciate how special these dogs really are, if hunted alone for a while, they should be celebrated.

Neil

[kninebirddog]

If they are not going WITH you in the field I do not care how close or far that they are, they are self hunting and that is no good that gets dogs off course at trials or lost getting off course can get them killed at trials.The brittany world lost to nice dogs last year from not staying on course and getting onto roads and getting hit.

Not everyone likes to have a dog run that big Sure they are nice for the Horseback trials but in truth less then 10 percent of dogs owned go to HB people who enjoy a dog ranging that far. Some people like to watch their dogs and are on foot.

So again no matter the range if the dog isn't going with you in the field it doesn't do any good for hunting specially if they cross a fence line on to a someone elses property you do not have permission to be on

the other thing that was brought up was about being hunted together...I would stop that for a little while till you have the control you want also...as if they are just racing off head running again even in trials that is not desired the dog shoud be headed to find birds not just head racing

Range should have nothing to do with obedience ..but obedience should have everything to do with the field
Fred astaire and ginger rogers made a great dancing duo and I will bet everything to flow together like they did someone was in the lead and I am betting it wasn't ginger

[CherrystoneWeims]

Knine has made some wonderful suggestions.

It sounds like the dogs are hunting for themselves. They need to be obedience trained......

[Vman]

Whoa break the dogs. When you can stop them on command you have control. When they hit the outer limits of the handlers range stop them. They will learn to stay within the given parameters. If not, they will get stopped. That and obedience, it all starts in the yard.
From what you have described I wonder if the dogs weren`t trying to outrun the collar, and when you quit using the collar they succeeded. Are the dogs collar conditioned? I doubt it from what you have described.
Also use smaller fields with planted birds after the dogs are broke. You can also put a bird in your bird bag while training in the small fields. When you have birds on your person it will make some dogs hang around. especially if they don`t find anything. They will come back and look at you like, hey man when you gonna put that bird down for me? I also like to show the dogs that I can find birds. I whoa them and then flush a bird and kill it. You can do this after you call the dog back in, and while on the way whoa him and kill the bird. He may hang closer because you are finding birds and he isn`t.

I think once you get them under control they will be very good dogs.

[ymepointer]

Everyone has heard this old saying. While I agree that a dog must be born with the proper genetics for prey drive, I am currently having trouble helping a friend. My friend has an EP and a GSP. Both are excellent dogs. He is pulling his hair out with their range. When we hunt Sharptails they want to run at 6-800 yards. He wants them at 2-300 yards. When we hunt pheasants in thick cover, he wants his dogs within 80-100 yards, and they consistently run bigger. He has shocked them to the point that I told him to stop. I know many of you are going to say to let the dogs hunt, but he isn't going to do it. His dogs typically get so far away when hunting that they become a serious liability when trying to catch them. They listen well when they are in ear shot, but once about 200-250 yards out they seem to not be able to hear him. Often times we completely lose them in big marshes. We both hunt with an Astro, but he is constantly blowing his whistle, and it really upsets my friend. He is constantly apologizing to me for making noise, and I feel bad for him, but all the yelling and whistles is annoying. He is a good friend, and I really enjoy hunting with him. He loves his dogs, and will never get rid of them. He has run his dogs with a weighted check, and that seems to slow them down, but when it comes off, they are back to their same old tricks. I am at a loss. I jokingly told him to buy a horse, and he gave me a dirty look and then laughed. He clearly doesn't think his situation is at all funny.

In a case like this, I would suggest he sell those fine dogs to some FT minded folk and take something with a smaller motor. I am sure some GSP folks would love some 6-800 yard dog if it were nice and stylish to AKC field trial.

[ACooper]

In a case like this, I would suggest he sell those fine dogs to some FT minded folk and take something with a smaller motor. I am sure some GSP folks would love some 6-800 yard dog if it were nice and stylish to AKC field trial.

I agree sell the dogs, get something that is bred how he wants to hunt, not something bred to run big and then be unhappy when it runs BIG!

On the other hand he seems to have a knack to have dogs that run huge maybe he should start running FT dogs as a profession?

[Sharon]

Hey!!! I said that on page one and I got e-mails saying I " give up too early". Now that Mr. Cooper has said it , I feel much better.

To me , life is short - particularly when it comes to dogs. If you've given it your best shot and you're still not happy, make a change. This applies to many areas of life.

[Birddogz]

I talked to my friend last night for the first time in 3 weeks. He has been working his dogs by them selves. Apparently, and thankfully, he has made a huge breakthrough with both dogs. As someone had advised me in a PM, my friend had purchased a collar with a tone on it. He went through some very frustrating days, but he decided to be very hard on the dogs. When they got out of what he wants them to range he toned them, then called for them to come in. If they didn't, he shocked them on 2. The second time he would tone them and shock them on 3, and so on and so forth, until he got to 5.
From what he said, the GSP now turns every time he tones. He did not like the juice, and is starting to understand the range well. Not perfect, but really coming along well. My friend said he was about to give up on the pointer, until he realized that the pointers shock collar was defective. It tones and blinks normally, but wasn't shocking. He switched collars and had a "Come to Jesus" week with the dog. He said he can't believe the dog doesn't glow in the dark from all the electricity that has passed through him. What makes this humorous,is that my friend loves his dogs very much, and I know that had to be very difficult for him. He said that the pointer is now ranging shorter than the GSP, and he hasn't really had to even use the tone much.
They aren't to be trusted yet, but he said that they are really on their way. He will never run them together again. He apparently, had consulted a dog trainer before he did all of the above. I just want to say I appreciate all the advice. I was all set to give him all of these ideas, and he had already done most of them. Thanks again everyone. I'm just glad I may actually get to watch these dogs from a distance that I can tell they are dogs!

[tommyboy72]

Sounds like your friend has it figured out now. It may still be ok to run them together later on down the road when both have it down solid that a shock means to come back in. Tell him good job and don't be afraid to be hard on them when it is warranted.

[NWCORNER]

Congrats to your buddy for sticking with it and finding a solution. It shows that with hard work and some good advice you can usually come to the wanted conclusion. On a side note, it's interesting how much it varies in what people want in a dog, for example range. Where I hunt a big ranging dog is preferable but I can certainly understand how other terrain would make that trait annoying, to say the least. Regardless, hope next season is an enjoyable one for you guys and the pups with the newly aquired range. I can only hope my next Shorthair has the range/run you described these dogs had.

Jake

[Birddogz]

I'm just curious NWCorner, what do you hunt that you would like your dogs at a thousand yards? Do you own horses? I'm just curious, because it would take me 6-10 minutes to get to my dog at 1000 yards depending on cover. Maybe more.

[M1Tanker]

If they are not going WITH you in the field I do not care how close or far that they are, they are self hunting...

Ditto...go back to yard work and get them to 100% turn when commanded.

[northern cajun]

Hey Birdogz - there's that "quartering" thing again! Oh, and FYI - quartering is also part of NAVDA's judging points, IIRC.

Read the aims and rules book a dog does not have to quarter in Navhda the word is not used.

Here is the Navhda definition of search.

From start to finish, the search should indicate but one purpose—to produce game for the gun. The
good dog will leave the impression that in the terrain covered by the search, no game has been
missed. No time should be wasted in searching obviously barren ground or by returning to cover that
has already been thoroughly searched.
An eager, cooperative dog will readily adapt to the terrain and cover over which it is being hunted,
regardless of its “home ground” experience, and it will not hesitate to search rough cover if the
situation demands it.
Throughout the search, the dog should display eagerness, interest, and stamina. The dog that must
be pushed raises doubts about desire and basic stamina.
Apparent use of the eyes rather than the nose to search for game is a serious fault; however, use of the
eyes to maintain cooperative contact with the handler is a natural result of the dog’s desire to please.
The dog should conduct its search at a practical distance from the gun. Terrain, cover, and other
variables make it impossible to measure practical range in yards. Rather, it must be measured in
9
terms of covering the maximum amount of likely game cover without loss of control or sacrificing the
all important cooperation that must exist between the hunter and the dog. Suffice it to say, that the
uncontrolled dog running the far horizons is of little use to the on-foot hunter, as is the one that
remains so close to the gun that is constitutes an underfoot nuisance.

[AzDoggin]

Hey Birdogz - there's that "quartering" thing again! Oh, and FYI - quartering is also part of NAVDA's judging points, IIRC.

Read the aims and rules book a dog does not have to quarter in Navhda the word is not used.

Here is the Navhda definition of search.

Thanks for keeping me honest. Knew I read it somewhere...I was thinking Navhda. Guess it was NSTRA http://www.nstra.org/files/RuleBookJuly08.pdf

3. GROUND COVERAGE
SCORE: 0-100
PLUS FACTORS:
Quick and thorough search for birds such as quartering
Sharp, classy movements

MINUS FACTORS:
Pottering with ground scent
Running and not actually hunting such as head racing
Not covering the ground thoroughly
Spending time out of bounds
Lack of enthusiasm

I do agree completely with that last line in the Navhda regs: "Suffice it to say, that the
uncontrolled dog running the far horizons is of little use to the on-foot hunter, as is the one that
remains so close to the gun that is constitutes an underfoot nuisance."

Have y'all ever thought about having a conversation about "range?"

[dudleysmith]

I love these threads.

[Neil]

That is a very well thought out definition, thanks for posting it. And for the type of dog they are seeking it makes a lot sense. Not my type of pointing dog at all, but if you judged accurately to that standard you would have a nice dog (except for that "quartering" thing that someone just had to put in).

With anything except a brace of flushing spaniels the "no game has been missed" is a bit lofty on wild birds, but you did notice it said, "would leave the impression", not actually doing so.

I would like to hunt with the guys that wrote and adopted that wording, they know bird dogs,

Neil