Now that there's a FC/AFC Black Shorthair...

[vzkennels]

Here is another little tid bit some of you won't want to hear,you will see more oversize dogs in the show ring the you will at a field trial.I'm not only talking GSPS but pretty much all breeds.It use to be a joke between the pro handlers how when the wicket was called for their dogs would shrink to measure now you want to keep on all this BS?

[snips]

YOU keep bringing up tri color..This is about BLACK!

[Adam]

YOU keep bringing up tri color..This is about BLACK!

I was only responding to Aryes

[wems2371]

While it is a DQ in the ring, equating the black color to genetic health defects is misleading and an easy way to dismiss the subject at hand. Think some of us had this discussion over on shorthairs.net not too long ago. http://www.shorthairs.net/GSPForum/tabi ... fault.aspx And as I said over there, the AKC will register ANYTHING under the sun and the GSPCA doesn't restrict it. You can breed two dogs with hips falling out of their sockets and register the litter--and I'm suppose to give soooo much credence to that system. I just about never see anyone posting here for stricter AKC GSP standards--except when it comes to colors and then it's a fight to the death. Kind of bizarre to me where a persons priorities might be.

[ACooper]

While it is a DQ in the ring, equating the black color to genetic health defects is misleading and an easy way to dismiss the subject at hand. Think some of us had this discussion over on shorthairs.net not too long ago. http://www.shorthairs.net/GSPForum/tabi ... fault.aspx And as I said over there, the AKC will register ANYTHING under the sun and the GSPCA doesn't restrict it. You can breed two dogs with hips falling out of their sockets and register the litter--and I'm suppose to give soooo much credence to that system. I just about never see anyone posting here for stricter AKC GSP standards--except when it comes to colors and then it's a fight to the death. Kind of bizarre to me where a persons priorities might be.

Can you imagine if you had to prove a dog had a good bite to be bred? Or judges checked a dogs bite prior to a FT brace or hunt test and DQ'd a dog from running if it had an incorrect bite? LOOK OUT

[Greg Jennings]

Already happens on some breed's national trials. "Qualify On the Line". I'm not saying "yea" or "nay". I'm just providing information.

Other than that, I'm not touching this thread with a ten foot pole.

[wems2371]

Coop, I wasn't calling for that, or I'd have a DK. But in picking how to better the breed, genetic defects are the things I'd worry more about than allowing a color that's been around for quite some time.

NAVHDA checks and records teeth info. I use their database, OFA, and a few other places when researching litters.

[vzkennels]

Coop you would be surprised at how many judges wouldn't know a bad bite if it bit them in the butt & another thing it says a severe bad bite now what is severe to one might not be sever to another.Most of the standard is subjective just like a dogs performance in the field.

[ACooper]

Already happens on some breed's national trials. "Qualify On the Line". I'm not saying "yea" or "nay". I'm just providing information.

Other than that, I'm not touching this thread with a ten foot pole.

Of course I was talking about gsps.

[Adam]

So is anybody going to answer how long the black push has been going on?

[ACooper]

Coop, I wasn't calling for that, or I'd have a DK. But in picking how to better the breed, genetic defects are the things I'd worry more about than allowing a color that's been around for quite some time.

NAVHDA checks and records teeth info. I use their database, OFA, and a few other places when researching litters.

I know you werent calling for it. But like NAVHDA I think faults should be recorded at trials and tests sanctioned by the AKC and AF. I mean dogs that are out of standard for height, bite, whatever just make a note.

[Ridge-Point]

So is anybody going to answer how long the black push has been going on?

Was trying to research it. I am pretty sure the first vote was about 10 years ago. Don't quote me, on that, still trying to find it.

[Shadow]

Already happens on some breed's national trials. "Qualify On the Line". I'm not saying "yea" or "nay". I'm just providing information.

Other than that, I'm not touching this thread with a ten foot pole.

well said

[Adam]

So is anybody going to answer how long the black push has been going on?

Was trying to research it. I am pretty sure the first vote was about 10 years ago. Don't quote me, on that, still trying to find it.

and you don't consider that a sudden urge after 60+ years without people trying to get it accepted?

[Ayres]

Adam, I read that entire quoted post and although it does mention some anecdotal reports of tri-color in the breed past, nothing indicates that tri-color was accepted in a written standard. The difference is that black was accepted prior to and at the time of the writing of the American breed standard. When liver dogs were first imported to the U.S., the breed standard was written to disqualify black. Nobody has ever referenced a reason why this change from the German standard was made, other than the fact that black dogs were not imported at the time. It wasn't until much later that black dogs were imported and became part of the breeding population here in the U.S. That would seem to answer two of your questions: why the difference between nixing black as a DQ and not nixing the other colors' DQ status, and why the political push to include black in the GSPCA standard has been a relatively recent thing.

I am still at a loss, however, to understand how the question "why is this push to include blacks in the breed standard such a recent thing" is an argument against adding black to the accepted standard. How long must the push be made? How long should the GSPCA delay before removing the DQ? And why would any delay be necessary?

[vzkennels]

Adam when I got into GSPS in 1974 you saw very few White & Lvr GSPS almost all were Lvr Roan dogs & some solid Lvrs probaly in the 80's when they started showing up freqeuntly now at Field Trials they are the predominate color.They don't show up as much at shows because they don't do aswell in the show ring.I'm not sure how long the blacks have been trying to get approved but probably since people found out they could sell them & get more because they are black,Maybe it will be a good thing once it passes since they won't be a novelty any longer & the prices will level off to the rest of the breed & then a new color will come along & start it all over again.

[Adam]

Adam, I read that entire quoted post and although it does mention some anecdotal reports of tri-color in the breed past, nothing indicates that tri-color was accepted in a written standard. The difference is that black was accepted prior to and at the time of the writing of the American breed standard. When liver dogs were first imported to the U.S., the breed standard was written to disqualify black. Nobody has ever referenced a reason why this change from the German standard was made, other than the fact that black dogs were not imported at the time. It wasn't until much later that black dogs were imported and became part of the breeding population here in the U.S. That would seem to answer two of your questions: why the difference between nixing black as a DQ and not nixing the other colors' DQ status, and why the political push to include black in the GSPCA standard has been a relatively recent thing.

I am still at a loss, however, to understand how the question "why is this push to include blacks in the breed standard such a recent thing" is an argument against adding black to the accepted standard. How long must the push be made? How long should the GSPCA delay before removing the DQ? And why would any delay be necessary?

I'm not saying there is a time limit that needs to be reached before its accepted the point i was making with the time comment was that black wasn't needed to have a successful breeding program for very long time now all of a sudden is it when the only thing that black dogs bring to the table over an acceptable liver dog is the color..

I dont understand is why people couldn't just accept the standard the way it was written in america from the get go.

[vzkennels]

If the show people feel the need to improve their dogs by including blacks they will pass it soon enough.

[Greg Jennings]

There is a lot of information out there, some contradictory, on how the GSPCA standard was written with black as a DQ. It makes for some interesting Google-ing.

IIRC, at some point, black was frowned on in the German standard in order to stop outcrossing to pointers. There is a tie-in to the Arkwright Pointer story there somewhere.

Some of the contradictory information comes in with respect to what the German standard was at the time the GSPCA standard was written.

While I'm providing information:

There is a website out there http://www.blackgsp.com/ . I don't find anything equivalent for any other color.

Keep in mind that I'm provding information. Nothing more and nothing less. I quite literally do not have a dog in this fight.

Greg J.

[Ayres]

Because the American breed standard with regard to color was latest written in the late 60's (and approved by the AKC in 1975) by referencing a German standard that was written in 1902, before blacks were bred in Germany. This was accepted because at that time very few, if any, black GSPs were in the U.S. But it does not give credence to the true ancestry of the breed, wherein blacks were being bred with acceptance in Germany by 1933, prior to the first breed standard being approved by the AKC in 1935.

With regard to the comment that the blacks don't bring anything to the table that you can't get from a liver dog... I thought I addressed that earlier. That is always going to be a case-by-case, specific determination. And if you limit the breeding options to exclude black dogs, you're possibly overlooking a better option. The argument of "it's always been this way" shows nothing to gain by continuing to exclude blacks from the conformation ring.

[wems2371]

I dont understand is why people couldn't just accept the standard the way it was written in america from the get go.

I'm glad we aren't stuck permanently to the decisons others made many moons ago in regards to many things. That's exactly why I chose the breed/registry I did.

[Ayres]

There is a website out there http://www.blackgsp.com/ . I don't find anything equivalent for any other color.

Actually Greg, that's just a link to Ferronhaus Kennels, run by Ron Ferris, DVM in Indiana. He has a line of black GSPs.

But there is a Black GSP Yahoo Group similar to the GSPCA Yahoo Group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blackgsps/
I don't see that for any other color.

[Reech]

I rememeber reading an article in GunDog magazine about Goldens... Before Gerald Ford got one as the White House pet they we relatively unknown. After his choice Goldents started showing up in Rescue shelters in greater numbers. People really do not understand what a working dog or a sporting dog is all about. Sad news is the mistakes they made ended up in shelters.

Becareful what you wish for. There are enough unethical people out there waiting to cash in on the next big fad. People who know and love the German Shorthair will always be there as the customer, the breeder, the trialer and the hunter.

If it is a show dog you are looking for... go buy one that is acceptable to the AKC Standard. If you want a Dual Champion buy one that is the acceptable standard.

If it is a hunting, trialing, Testing dog weither it is AKC or Navhda you can pick out what ever flavor you want.

I always have to ask why someone wants to change the standard in accordance to what they feel the standard should be. You should always follow the money.

You will never be able to convince me that a black dog is better than a liver one or a white and liver patched dog or liver and white patched and ticked or roan and white patched and ticked is a better shorthair to own as a better all around dog.



I will apologise up front if I have offended anyone.

Me

[Dave Quindt]

But there is a Black GSP Yahoo Group similar to the GSPCA Yahoo Group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blackgsps/
I don't see that for any other color.

You mean like the Solid Liver GSP Yahoo Group?
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/SolidLiverGSPs/

Dude, quit while you are behind.

[Adam]

I'm not going to continue this because like I said in the beginning I don't care either way...Soon enough black will pass and we'll have different discussions that will keep me entertained all day at work

[adogslife]

Since there has been a few posts about DQs how about considering having coats examined and judged?Don't you think many GSPs are lacking in coat,- a double coat? So many have bare bellys. How about the standard's mention of a gay tail or a 12:00 tail? The mere fact that an AKC judge wouldn't know a bad bite if it bit them is a shame. What exactly is a judges purpose if not to distinquish exempliary specimens from the obviously poor specimens? How many GSP breeders know if their GSP is missing teeth or how many teeth a GSP is supposed to have? What about eye color?
Not accepting black is political. It seems,at least by what I have read from a few posts here, that there seems to be a dislike of anything German. Guess what boys? You own a German bred dog - changing it to look more English won't help.

[Dave Quindt]

I'm not going to continue this because like I said in the beginning I don't care either way...Soon enough black will pass and we'll have different discussions that will keep me entertained all day at work

Adam,

Can you imagine even if they get black to pass how long it's going to take to get one finished? Much less to be a competitive group or all-breed dog. The liver show folks complain that they can't get a fair shake from the judges; I can't imagine what it would be like for the black dogs.

It will be easier to put an NFC on a black GSP than an NSS win.

FWIW,
Dave

[vzkennels]

Dogslife you want to go the political route HOW MANY DOG SHOWS you been to? That was the biggest mistake you have made yet!!
Exactly Dave these people have no idea!
I think it's all a joke.

[dan v]

I know you werent calling for it. But like NAVHDA I think faults should be recorded at trials and tests sanctioned by the AKC and AF. I mean dogs that are out of standard for height, bite, whatever just make a note.

Who is going to be doing that? The judges? Listen, I've got enough on my plate judging a 20-30 dog Gun Dog stake...I certainly ain't gonna be looking in mouths or checking for "proper" wire coat or absence of white.

AKC goes there, I'll give up my judging number.

Dan

[BigShooter]

What is fact is that, because currently black is a DQ color in the show ring, for a great number of breeders all black dogs are overlooked as additions to their breeding program. That restricts the breeding options, including those that may be a superior breeding match. You haven't directly addressed this point in three posts

Facts or speculation? Exaggeration is a frequently used technique to enhance a statement. The first point is speculation asserted as fact. How many comprise "this great number of breeders"? Black GSPs exist. The largest market segment is for the working dog & yet some "great number" of breeders are overlooking "maybe superior" black dogs because they can't be shown in a ring?

I can address your point. There are no criteria so like you I'm willing to speculate any particular dog may be superior or inferior to another GSP for a breeding match.

Where one comes from is neither an explanation nor an excuse. It is better accepted and simpler to explain what one meant than to always attempt to assert others are incorrect. That generally only fosters worthless debate.

I never used it as an explanation or an excuse. What I said was that if a person says or does something, they need to own up to it.

Your statement was addressed to me but apparently the point was directed to someone else. You have made baseless assumptions about my intent twice.

Try using your phrase in a biker bar with the explanation of "where you come from ....". Explain how it should be okay with them because "where you come from ......".

1) What is the betterment of the breed to you? And why do you believe that the exclusion of black colored GSPs is required for the betterment of the breed, or why do you believe that the inclusion of blacks is not necessary to provide the best options?
2) In your opinion, do you claim the current detractors of black dogs want the disqualification of black totally exclusive of any self-interest or economics, but purely for altruistic reasons?
3) Please comment on how in your opinion a future implementation date would be equitable to all GSP breeders taken as a whole, and why or whether such equity is needed for GSP breeders when considering the betterment of the breed as the primary reason for the inclusion or exclusion of the black color.

1. In order to describe betterment of the breed (not my words) one needs universally accepted criteria & measurement tools which have not been agreed upon nor established. Go ahead and take a stab at producing the criteria for public consumption.

2. I believe there are few, maybe no individuals that do not examine any proposed change to determine how they may or may not be impacted and consider how much this change may affect them or other's they care about and act accordingly.

3. If the corner on the black market (pun unintended) has economic value and if a future implementation date allows addition entrants to the market prior to the effective date I see equity being enhanced.

Betterment is easily used because it is undefined. It has good use as a sales tool because who can be against something "better", whatever that is.

1) You asked me about betterment of the breed, but you don't offer an explanation of your own.

I asked you because you used the term betterment of the breed & suggested people were ignoring betterment of the breed. You then stated it was highly subjective and you were unable to define what people were ignoring.

2) That's not an answer to the question at all, unless one is to assume that when you say "consider how much this change may affect them" you mean personally, politically and economically rather than how it affects their notion of what is best for the breed. My question, like yours, asked for a specific answer on that subject. Is my assumption correct, or do you have further explanation?

My answer is all encompassing. Each individual evaluates what is important to themselves personally based upon whatever notions they have & make decisions accordingly.

Steve, in case you missed my second post:

I believe it is very naive of anyone to think this is merely about color in the show ring only and that it isn't about the divergence of breed development between the U.S. & Germany, equity, economics & politics. I for one don't believe for one minute that the majority of non-backyard breeders don't have any desire to showcase their dogs in venues to increase the demand and value of their pups.

3) You didn't answer the second half of my question: "and why or whether such equity is needed for GSP breeders when considering the betterment of the breed as the primary reason for the inclusion or exclusion of the black color." Simply, why does economic equity among breeders need to be considered at all?

In my opinion potential economic inequities among breeders will be a consideration for some people and without a survey no one has any idea if this is a big issue or a little one.

[ACooper]

I know you werent calling for it. But like NAVHDA I think faults should be recorded at trials and tests sanctioned by the AKC and AF. I mean dogs that are out of standard for height, bite, whatever just make a note.

Who is going to be doing that? The judges? Listen, I've got enough on my plate judging a 20-30 dog Gun Dog stake...I certainly ain't gonna be looking in mouths or checking for "proper" wire coat or absence of white.

AKC goes there, I'll give up my judging number.

Dan

Right or wrong this is my point, to most people being "in standard" isn't that big of a deal. I didnt think I could get a judge to say it though.

[vzkennels]

Lets just suppose you ask the judges to make those conformation judgements,do you have any idea how much more time would be involved? Have you ever been to a dog show or watched one on TV never going to happen.I have been to parties before & after dog shows & dog show aquointances where the highballs & liquior flowed freely & since I'm not much of a drinker kept my mouth shut & ears open to loosened up mouths from the alcohol.If you only knew all the I owe yous behind the scenes.

[adogslife]

VZKennels,
what's your point?
Is there something for me to learn at an AKC show? Please,indulge me. What have I been missing?
The betterment of the versatile GSP? I just love the delicate necks,those over angulated rears and the lack of hunting ability.
To name a few.

This is not about GSPs vs DKs. It's about a color of a dog that is rediculously excluded full rights due to politics. The GSPCA has more pressing issues that need to be dealt with - let the color thing go and move on.

[BigShooter]

Guess what boys? You own a German bred dog - changing it to look more English won't help.

Guess what boy, we've had numerous discussions about whether the American GSP is now a different breed than the German DKs. Many insist that they diverged over time.

[ACooper]

Lets just suppose you ask the judges to make those conformation judgements,do you have any idea how much more time would be involved? Have you ever been to a dog show or watched one on TV never going to happen.I have been to parties before & after dog shows & dog show aquointances where the highballs & liquior flowed freely & since I'm not much of a drinker kept my mouth shut & ears open to loosened up mouths from the alcohol.If you only knew all the I owe yous behind the scenes.

Ted I imagine you are correct about the I owe yous.

I have seen dogs checked after a NAVHDA test and it didnt take long, I wasnt meaning that they be pranced around in a circle, or an impromptu conformation show at the Bethel Ranch, just a quick once over. Again my point is proven we are fighting about an issue with the standard but the standard doesn't matter to most.

[vzkennels]

There is more politics in dog shows then the white house that's my point.I have tried to let it go but my name keeps comming up so just letting a few in on things they don't really want to know.Funny you mentioned the over angulation but not the stilt legs that hace ACL problems.

[vzkennels]

Coop that is my point if we are going to overlook the standard & color is part of that standard then lets just throw it all out the window like the pointers that the DK people say American GSPS are anyway.

[vzkennels]

How many times do I have to say my no vote has NOTHING TO DO WITH color.It's about the breeders & owners like dogslife that keep telling me DKS are superior to our American GSPS & there fore worth more.But if their DKS don't take the test to be registered as DKS for any reason the are registered as AMERICA GSPS.
If an American GSP was allowed to test & pass the DK test they would still be DENIED DK registration.
Now cry me a river if Black is not accepted!!

[BigShooter]

Just colorize your black and take it to the ring.

BTW - Let me know when the teeth & bite standards are going to be applied to field trials so I can start up a canine orthodontia & oral surgery practice just beforehand. Canine braces and tooth implants for all!

Funny about rumors though. I once heard about a popular stud throwing bad bites. I followed a litter of seven - no bad bites and two grand - litters - no bad bites. Maybe that stud should've been taken out of the breeding pool. :roll:

[BigShooter]

Isn't the timing of this annual thread off this year? The timing has been such that it usually was fired up just before the next GSPCA vote on black.

[Adam]

Doesnt look like the vote made the ballot this year

[vzkennels]

Ayers saw the chance for this all when the first black FC was posted up & ceased it.
This in my opinion detracted from the owners Brag & has focused on all this BS that has been discussed before.
Again my Congrats to the owners & Sally for the accomplishment.
Sorry it all went in this direction.

[Middlecreek]

Direct quote from GSPCA president:

"Coming from a dual background my concept of the ideal shorthair was a dog with correct conformation, could run like the wind, find birds with ease and style and retreive. The show dogs were getting oversized with straight fronts, lacking condition and most were having problems with hunting and scenting skills. The Field dogs on the other hand were getting extremely athletic, white, snipey nosed with a lessened ability to find birds with style. In my fifteen years we have done nothing to solve this problem."


Maybe there are other areas more important than color to consider???

[Dave Quindt]

Mark wrote:

Funny about rumors though. I once heard about a popular stud throwing bad bites. I followed a litter of seven - no bad bites and two grand - litters - no bad bites. Maybe that stud should've been taken out of the breeding pool.

And I saw 5 youngsters out of another litter sired by the same sire (was never really that popular), and every one of them had bad bites. And momma had a good bite. To answer the question; yes, he should have been taken out of the gene pool. There were siblings with good bites; some said they were even better dogs.

Using your logic, there's no problem breeding a dysplastic dog if he throws good hips?

As someone who watched a dog fight for his life with a genetic disease that will ultimately kill him, I have little patience for breeders who "let the little things slide" and make folks in future generations clean up their messes.

Isn't one of the basic rules of intelligent breeding "remove dogs that display an unwanted phenotype, and you'll reduce the chance of the unwanted genotype from being displayed in future generations".

JMO,
Dave

[BigShooter]

Ted,

It's "Ayres" (pronounced Air-ees) not "Ayers". At least that's how my wife's family pronounces it. I'm pretty sure spelling isn't your long suit .... I'm just sayin' ....

Steve writes very well & I'm guessing he makes for a pretty fair lawyer (is there such a thing ). Seriously though I think he's a pretty good guy and if he wasn't a lawyer I'd cut him a lot more slack!

[BigShooter]

Mark wrote:

Funny about rumors though. I once heard about a popular stud throwing bad bites. I followed a litter of seven - no bad bites and two grand - litters - no bad bites. Maybe that stud should've been taken out of the breeding pool.

And I saw 5 youngsters out of another litter sired by the same sire (was never really that popular), and every one of them had bad bites. And momma had a good bite. To answer the question; yes, he should have been taken out of the gene pool. There were siblings with good bites; some said they were even better dogs.

Using your logic, there's no problem breeding a dysplastic dog if he throws good hips?

As someone who watched a dog fight for his life with a genetic disease that will ultimately kill him, I have little patience for breeders who "let the little things slide" and make folks in future generations clean up their messes.

Isn't one of the basic rules of intelligent breeding "remove dogs that display an unwanted phenotype, and you'll reduce the chance of the unwanted genotype from being displayed in future generations".

JMO,
Dave

Dave, It's always hard to argue with your logic. We do know that not all genes are passed. While one should be willing to cull, in some instances it is possible future generations will not be carriers.

I don't know about basic rules. Sometimes it seems like we're still guessing a lot with insufficient knowledge of the whole picture. Like a balloon ... push in one side ... and the pressure pushes out the other sides. All we can see is the side we're pushing on and not how the rest of the balloon is being affected.

[vzkennels]

Mark you are probably right about my spelling & typing since I'm a one finger man The truth is I use to spell very well but I think I have mentioned this before I can spell the same word wright & wrong in the same sentence since having a TIA (mini stroke) about 5 yrs ago,my memory is totally shot.I will say just the opposite of what I mean like west instead of east or vice versa so don't ask me directions.I easily get things mixed up & can't give my own name at times when asked let alone friends or dogs names etc.It can be frustrating at times but I try since the DR said keeping my mind working is the best thing to improve or letting it get worse.We all take our health for granted untill we no longer have it.
Oh & just to keep this on Topic I will never vote for Black to be allowed!!

[BigShooter]

Ted,

I had no idea you had a transient ischemic attack (TIA). Thanks for explaining. I must have missed that post. I'm sorry to hear that and am old enough to be a candidate myself. Just keeping my fingers crossed & thankful I'm able to get around as well as I do with all of my injuries and surgeries over the years.

Your doc's right - keep exercising that mind.

Take care,

[Greg Jennings]

There is a website out there http://www.blackgsp.com/ . I don't find anything equivalent for any other color.

Actually Greg, that's just a link to Ferronhaus Kennels, run by Ron Ferris, DVM in Indiana. He has a line of black GSPs.

But there is a Black GSP Yahoo Group similar to the GSPCA Yahoo Group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blackgsps/
I don't see that for any other color.

That says nothing for or against the observation that there is a website with a domain referencing the color black but not a known one mentioning any other color. Take that entirely at face value.

But, I will venture one step further and say that there is not, for example, anyone marketing GSPs by appealing to color with a domain like "http://www.whiteandliverpatchedandticked.com/".

It's obvious to the casual observer that there is a marketing aspect to the color black. Is there a parallel to silver labs, solid white GSDs, blue weims? You guys can debate that.

[raven34]

Just a question for you guys

If you were judging a field trial and you saw an incredible performance given by a black GSP, would you put her up or would you chose not to because of his/her color?

Just curious how a black would go over at national event. Input??
Jen