Qualify at the line

[ACooper]

What breeds besides V's must qualify at the line in AKC field events? I am going to assume that brits do?

[slistoe]

Do you mean a conformation exam for DQ? If so, no Britts do not.

[ACooper]

I assumed brits did based on the DC focus and records, that is what i get for assuming. I know v's do are they they the only one?

If we are going to beat the dead horse of conformation I want to make sure it is really dead.

[Neil]

V's are the only ones, and they seem to discuss it a lot.

As you said there is a lot of emphasis on Duals in Britts, but that is determined in the show, not on the line. There are a good many Britts that are over-standard winning in the field.

Neil

[slistoe]

There are a good many Britts that are over-standard winning in the field.

Neil

There may be some winning in the Show Ring as well. I might even know one or two.

[ezzy333]

There are a good many Britts that are over-standard winning in the field.

Neil

There may be some winning in the Show Ring as well. I might even know one or two.

I have spent a lotof time in the past showing Brits as well as other breeds and several have stood right on the border line but I have never seen a clearly oversize dog in the ring. If you do all you have to do is call for a measurement and if it is measured out the dog is disqualified from future shows unless you can prove the measurement was bad.

If any handler is showing a dog that stands on the border they will measure them before the dos class is showing and if he would be measured out then they just do not show that day. But once you are in the ring and he is measured out you are disqualified for life or till you can show it was a bad measurement.

I used to hear that dogs were oversized a lot too, but it just isn't true unless you are considering a dog that stands right on the borderline, then some might get through.

Ezzy

[Greg Jennings]

To my knowledge Qualify On the Line even in Vs is at national events only. They are only looking for disqualifying items such as black nose, shag coat, solid white above toes, or extending on neck or shoulder. Males taller than 25.5 inches or females over 24.5 is a DQ. They are not grading the dog, just looking for DQ items.

[ezzy333]

To my knowledge Qualify On the Line even in Vs is at national events only. They are only looking for disqualifying items such as black nose, shag coat, solid white above toes, or extending on neck or shoulder. Males taller than 25.5 inches or females over 24.5 is a DQ. They are not grading the dog, just looking for DQ items.

That is what I had heard but didn't want to say anything as I haven't experienced just how they did that. The breed trials around here they do not check them.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

There are a good many Britts that are over-standard winning in the field.

Neil

There may be some winning in the Show Ring as well. I might even know one or two.

I have spent a lotof time in the past showing Brits as well as other breeds and several have stood right on the border line but I have never seen a clearly oversize dog in the ring. If you do all you have to do is call for a measurement and if it is measured out the dog is disqualified from future shows unless you can prove the measurement was bad.

If any handler is showing a dog that stands on the border they will measure them before the dos class is showing and if he would be measured out then they just do not show that day. But once you are in the ring and he is measured out you are disqualified for life or till you can show it was a bad measurement.

I used to hear that dogs were oversized a lot too, but it just isn't true unless you are considering a dog that stands right on the borderline, then some might get through.

Ezzy

It's ok Ezzy, I was the handler. Dog finished at 8 mos. then continued growing. I know two others like that. They don't pull the wicket on specials - usually. You can get a dog that is 1/2" over to stand under the wicket.

[vabrittfan]

If you do all you have to do is call for a measurement and if it is measured out the dog is disqualified from future shows unless you can prove the measurement was bad.


Ezzy

This is incorrect information. In AKC the dog has to be measured out 3 times & then it is out for life. In Canada the dog only has to be measured 1 time but you can appeal the 1 time thing & be reinstated.

[ezzy333]

If you do all you have to do is call for a measurement and if it is measured out the dog is disqualified from future shows unless you can prove the measurement was bad.


Ezzy

This is incorrect information. In AKC the dog has to be measured out 3 times & then it is out for life. In Canada the dog only has to be measured 1 time but you can appeal the 1 time thing & be reinstated.

You are right. I forgot they had changed that rule. Thanks for catching that.

Ezzy

[ACooper]

As you said there is a lot of emphasis on Duals in Britts, but that is determined in the show, not on the line.
Neil

I realize that show titles are determined in the show ring, not on the line at a FT. Just thought maybe Britts were checked along with V's, based on what seems to be a breed wide focus on dual dogs. I know that not everyone in the britt breed is focused on the dual dog but it seems there is a larger portion than other breeds.

[vabrittfan]

I realize that show titles are determined in the show ring, not on the line at a FT. Just thought maybe Britts were checked along with V's, based on what seems to be a breed wide focus on dual dogs. I know that not everyone in the britt breed is focused on the dual dog but it seems there is a larger portion than other breeds.

You would think this would be done but its not & the couple times I've seen it mentioned on any of the Britt lists it brought up a huge ruckus. Because most of the Britt folks that are "in" are horseback all-age folks & to them there is no other Britt & no other reason for Britts but to hunt. Most are fine about duals & that we do other things with them but to them the #1 thing should always be the field. And as such they could care less what those dogs look like or how huge they are. Personally I miss the old Britts you see in the various breed books that won in the field & still look like Britts & not pointer/setter mixes.

(no offense to anyone with these breeds as they are all fine dogs & if someone wants a Pointer and/or Setter to field trial I feel they should purchase that breed & not try to make our Brittanys into something they aren't...they were developed for the foot hunter & not to hunt miles ahead where you have to ride on horseback...my dad has hunted for probably close to all of his 78 years & I have yet to have ever seen a horse involved in the situation & he's been hunting with Brittanys since at least 1968)

[phermes1]

To my knowledge Qualify On the Line even in Vs is at national events only. They are only looking for disqualifying items such as black nose, shag coat, solid white above toes, or extending on neck or shoulder. Males taller than 25.5 inches or females over 24.5 is a DQ. They are not grading the dog, just looking for DQ items.

Exactly. It only applies to VCA events - not NVA - and only DQ faults are evaluated. Plus, dogs can't receiving permanent qualifications until they're over 2 years old, and the lower end of the height standard is not considered for dogs under 2 years.

LOTS of drama and differing opinions on the subject.

[Shadow]

vabrittfan- so I have a Britt that is big and runs like- well- he has wheels- should I figure you aren't happy because he's a wee bit over show standards

[slistoe]

Personally I miss the old Britts you see in the various breed books that won in the field & still look like Britts & not pointer/setter mixes.

You should try going to a field trial sometime and you could see quite a few of those dogs - the ones that get it done in the field and can win in the show ring because they look like Britts.

[vabrittfan]

vabrittfan- so I have a Britt that is big and runs like- well- he has wheels- should I figure you aren't happy because he's a wee bit over show standards

No I'm not talking about the wee bit over. I'm talking about the 2-3" over & the dog that barely resembles a Brittany in looks. There is a reason for the standard & the way the dog is conformed is the way it should be correctly conformed to be able to do what it was bred for---hunt.

I had a dog just slightly over standard & had he not had hip dysplasia I probably would have bred him, but that was just one too many problems. I know of people that breed these huge over sized males & honestly they put the females they breed to at risk. (I know one particular stud dog that a very large number of bitches he was bred to required c-sections & in several cases multiple pups were lost & Britts are not a breed that a c-section is necessary. I know breeders that have bred for over 35 years & never had 1 c-section, but then they don't breed dogs 2-3" over standard either.)

[ezzy333]

Personally I miss the old Britts you see in the various breed books that won in the field & still look like Britts & not pointer/setter mixes.

You should try going to a field trial sometime and you could see quite a few of those dogs - the ones that get it done in the field and can win in the show ring because they look like Britts.

I agree but they really don't look like they used to. They have a lot less coat and have been styled up with better attitudes. I think the big oversized dogs were a fad a few years ago but I see more people now that realize the importance of keeping our dogs the right size. If we all keep insisting that any dog we breed is within the standard we might finally get the big dogs out of the breed, but since we can't force people to do that it will be slow as we continue to try and educate everyone. It helps when we can demonstrate that the big dogs do not perform better than the dog that are within the standard.

JMO
Ezzy

[vabrittfan]

Personally I miss the old Britts you see in the various breed books that won in the field & still look like Britts & not pointer/setter mixes.

You should try going to a field trial sometime and you could see quite a few of those dogs - the ones that get it done in the field and can win in the show ring because they look like Britts.

You might want to re-read my original post. I'm not referring to the 565+ dual champions or the many other dogs that are working on both titles. I'm talking about the ones that you obviously over standard by several inches and look like some type of pointer/setter mix. And because they are winning all-age horseback handled events everyone flocks to breed to them.

And even though I don't personally field trial my dogs I do attend events as well as know a number of breeders & their dogs that have been breeding dual champions for over 35 years.

There are many lovely dogs that can do both. Karen on here has a beautiful male (Blaze) who is a dual champion. Kristi also has a really nice male (Jet) that is champion/amateur field champion (points on his open championship). These dogs actually look like Brittanys & they can hunt.

[vabrittfan]

Personally I miss the old Britts you see in the various breed books that won in the field & still look like Britts & not pointer/setter mixes.

You should try going to a field trial sometime and you could see quite a few of those dogs - the ones that get it done in the field and can win in the show ring because they look like Britts.

I agree but they really don't look like they used to. They have a lot less coat and have been styled up with better attitudes. I think the big oversized dogs were a fad a few years ago but I see more people now that realize the importance of keeping our dogs the right size. If we all keep insisting that any dog we breed is within the standard we might finally get the big dogs out of the breed, but since we can't force people to do that it will be slow as we continue to try and educate everyone. It helps when we can demonstrate that the big dogs do not perform better than the dog that are within the standard.

JMO
Ezzy

Ezzy you hit my point exactly. I was showing a male a couple years ago that is actually in standard. Not just barely in either but probably more like about 19 1/2" or so. I had many people talking about my "midget" Brittany. I think people have gotten so used to seeing those huge dogs (esp the males) that seeing a dog in standard that weighs right at 42 lbs is not what they are used to.

[Shadow]

vabrittfan- so I have a Britt that is big and runs like- well- he has wheels- should I figure you aren't happy because he's a wee bit over show standards

No I'm not talking about the wee bit over. I'm talking about the 2-3" over & the dog that barely resembles a Brittany in looks. There is a reason for the standard & the way the dog is conformed is the way it should be correctly conformed to be able to do what it was bred for---hunt.

I had a dog just slightly over standard & had he not had hip dysplasia I probably would have bred him, but that was just one too many problems. I know of people that breed these huge over sized males & honestly they put the females they breed to at risk. (I know one particular stud dog that a very large number of bitches he was bred to required c-sections & in several cases multiple pups were lost & Britts are not a breed that a c-section is necessary. I know breeders that have bred for over 35 years & never had 1 c-section, but then they don't breed dogs 2-3" over standard either.)

oh- real good breeding you had- bad hips- and that was because he wasn't inside the standard- but you would have bred him- puts you right with the nae sayers- huge you say my male is- ahhhhhhhhhhh if you had a tape and were decent- but then again- he's no good- too big- you like the little round Britt's that were called "brush hogs'

[Shadow]

going to back out of this- somethings not quite right- I showed him, he was right arround, and 42 lbs

[ezzy333]

vabrittfan- so I have a Britt that is big and runs like- well- he has wheels- should I figure you aren't happy because he's a wee bit over show standards

No I'm not talking about the wee bit over. I'm talking about the 2-3" over & the dog that barely resembles a Brittany in looks. There is a reason for the standard & the way the dog is conformed is the way it should be correctly conformed to be able to do what it was bred for---hunt.

I had a dog just slightly over standard & had he not had hip dysplasia I probably would have bred him, but that was just one too many problems. I know of people that breed these huge over sized males & honestly they put the females they breed to at risk. (I know one particular stud dog that a very large number of bitches he was bred to required c-sections & in several cases multiple pups were lost & Britts are not a breed that a c-section is necessary. I know breeders that have bred for over 35 years & never had 1 c-section, but then they don't breed dogs 2-3" over standard either.)

oh- real good breeding you had- bad hips- and that was because he wasn't inside the standard- but you would have bred him- puts you right with the nae sayers- huge you say my male is- ahhhhhhhhhhh if you had a tape and were decent- but then again- he's no good- too big- you like the little round Britt's that were called "brush hogs'

Shadow,
No one is challengeing you or your dogs. If I had your male I would love him, be proud of him, hunt him, give him a great home, and never consider breeding him. Now if he was the only dog that had his abilities in the field I might use him to try and get more hunt in the other dogs but when there are thousands of dogs in our gene pool that are within the standard that can do everything the big dogs do I would use one of them to further our breed.

I have young dog here with his head in my lap right now that is a beautiful dog with a lot of field ability but he is big and will not ever be bred. And he is not the first one I have had that went over and they all were treated just like this pup. Nice dogs but they do not offer anything that can't be found in dogs that fit our standard. And there is no corralation between desease and size so that shouldn't enter into the debate in any way.

JMO
Ezzy

[vabrittfan]

oh- real good breeding you had- bad hips- and that was because he wasn't inside the standard- but you would have bred him- puts you right with the nae sayers- huge you say my male is- ahhhhhhhhhhh if you had a tape and were decent- but then again- he's no good- too big- you like the little round Britt's that were called "brush hogs'

Um I said I may have bred him not that I would & he was actually just on the top of the standard. Sometimes he measured in & sometimes out but the severe hip dysplasia earned him a trip to be neutered instead. He was the best Brittany ever & I wouldn't have traded him for 50 champions.

I was not his breeder. He was bred by a breeder that I later found out had bred many litters of dysplastic dogs as well as breeding dogs she did not even bother to OFA at all. (I was still fairly new at the time & he was my 2nd dog purchased as a competition dog. I naively assumed that a breeder doing a fair amount of winning would be ethical.)

And as for your male I don't know who your male is as I don't know who you are. None of my comments were ever directed to you or your dog specifically. My comments were only directed towards discussing the fact that a number of winners barely even resemble the breed. I'm not the only one that feels this way based on other posts made on here as well. I'm not looking for a short fat Brittany but a medium sized sporting dog which is what they should be.

[slistoe]

Next time you are at a trial you should do a count. Yes, the oversize dogs exist and you will be able to find them if you look. Also existing are the dogs with snipey muzzles, long toplines, funny ears or any other host of "problems" you might want to get a pet peeve on. However if you look honestly you will find that the majority of the dogs are within standard and of reasonable type - at least that has been my experience. I spent a week for a couple of summers running with one of the major circuit pros who had 45 dogs on the strings that included current NAFC's, a couple of future Nat Field Ch etc. Of the 45 dogs there was one oversize dog. Fully half of those dogs were IMO quite capable of going around the show ring. Not exactly the sky is falling scenario you are painting. The oversize dog was in his puppy year and remained on the string because it was the opinion of this pro that the dog had something special that was not found in other dogs - this dog possessed field abilities so outside the ordinary that he walked me up to him on the first day and pointing to the gangly pup and announced that he would be a Nat. Ch. That dog did become NFC and he was bred to. Ezzy is right for any regular dog (including ones that make FC) that is oversize there are dozens more like him to breed to that aren't so why would you - but this dog had that something that very few other dogs have. There weren't and aren't dozens of dogs with the qualities that set this dog apart form all others at a year of age. So he gets bred to. And there is nothing wrong with that.

[Neil]

From the beginning of importation of Brittanys, there have been two types; the closer coupled smaller somewhat spaniel looking dog, and the long legged more setter looking, the standard is written to include both.

From the start there have been big running Britts, they won against pointers early on in the 20's.

It is a myth that they have always been close hunting dogs, like any breed some are, some aren't.

The 550+ DC proves that the Brittany owners value the dual dog, and that is the ones that are most often bred to by the serious breeders.

So you guys may have seen those over-sized dogs, and we have had some place at the National Championship that don't look like Brittanys, but few active trialers breed to them or want to own them. Most of us condemn the practice, I do.

It is important to note that a dog can be an inch or even two over standard and throw smaller dogs, even when bred to a larger bitch.

My FC Azul, while a litter mate to duals, is slightly over standard, and as a result used little at stud, but he has never thrown an over standard dog.

Neil