Dual Sired Litters?

[LBH]

I saw an ad about a litter that was purposely sired by two different studs? I guess AKC allows it as well. I'd like some info. on this if anybody has some. Thought it was kinda different to hear. Any risks involved, etc.???

Thanks for any info. in advance...

[slistoe]

No risk.
AKC allows it with DNA profiling of both sires and all pups to determine parentage.
I don't know why one would intentionally do it.

[Rich Heaton]

I have actually thought about doing it. For me I like spring pups,,,which means I only have 1 chance per year to breed a particular female. I like to do frozen semen stuff and have been offered free semen because the quality isn't very good. Now granted it was fairly famous dogs but still wasn't worth the money or the risk because of the low quality. So what I do instead is use a different dog and better semen,,,, but I have thought about throwing the poor quality stuff in there too as long as they have her all opened up and timed right,,,, and who know's maybe a couple of the little guys could have made the swim. But ya have the whole DNA'ing of the whole litter to mess with.

[Greg Jennings]

As to why, the reason I've seen is it lets the breeder know more about what sire is going to work with that female.

[LBH]

How exactly do you go about doing the breeding to two different sires? I can't picture it being as easy as taking your female to stud A then a few days later taking her to stud B. Maybe it is that simple?

[mcbosco]

It can also be accidental :roll: Stuff happens.

[slistoe]

How exactly do you go about doing the breeding to two different sires? I can't picture it being as easy as taking your female to stud A then a few days later taking her to stud B. Maybe it is that simple?

No, you would have to decide if you wanted to go that afternoon, the next day, a few days later, etc. A bitch in heat is, well, a bitch in heat.

The only multiple sired litters anyone I know of having were by accident. The latest one she DNA'ed the whole litter and was able to register them (both sires were the same breed). Previous to that another accidental double breeding I had heard of was terminated and another they didn't realize till the pups were born and they did not/could not register them at that time so the pups were given away. In these cases the sires were of different breeds.

[dan v]

I know somebody that is thinking of doing it. It's with an older proven female...and is possibly her last litter. Doing a multi-sired litter would allow them to have the benefit (on paper) of have the two sires they are interested in have pups out of that gyp. If they went the standard route, breed to one sire and wait for the gyp to cycle again (they probably wouldn't wish to breed back to back), then wait for the next opportunity...it could be some 12 months.

Between AKC and the assorted vet work, the costs run up pretty quick, but could be worth it for the right combo.

[tommyboy72]

What's next? Gene splicing, test tube puppies, surrogate gyps using the semen and eggs of different dogs? Seems like stuff like this is a bit much in my personal opinion. Everyone wants a good, solid, reliable breeding program but where do you draw the line. Just because dogs are capable of having pups out of more than one sire with genetics individual to each sire with no intermingling of the sires should it be done? JMO

[mcbosco]

How exactly do you go about doing the breeding to two different sires? I can't picture it being as easy as taking your female to stud A then a few days later taking her to stud B. Maybe it is that simple?

No, you would have to decide if you wanted to go that afternoon, the next day, a few days later, etc. A bitch in heat is, well, a bitch in heat.

The only multiple sired litters anyone I know of having were by accident. The latest one she DNA'ed the whole litter and was able to register them (both sires were the same breed). Previous to that another accidental double breeding I had heard of was terminated and another they didn't realize till the pups were born and they did not/could not register them at that time so the pups were given away. In these cases the sires were of different breeds.

Bingo, think about it. Why would anyone say it was an accident.

[kninebirddog]

Akc has forms and you also have to have the DNA on Sires and then all the pups have to be DNA'd

http://www.akc.org/pdfs/ALMLT9.pdf


So According to AKC
You must obtain AKC DNA Profiles for the Sires and the Dam and each puppy from this sire and dam and submit copies of the profiles with a mulitple -Sire litter registration application

You can order Pre Paid DNA packets from AKC for $35.00 Each

the Fees then to register

200.00 administrative fee to process applications for a dam for the whelping date specified
25 dollars processing for each application
plus 2 dollars for each pup in that litter

35 dollars for expedited handling and priority mail service for each application and 65 dollars if it is 6 month past the whelp date



As for American Field last time I spoke with someone there I was under the understanding that they will do multiple sired litters for MISTAKES also DNA etc etc showing proof of parentage but they also advised me that multiple sired litters found to be on purpose would not be recognized..that may have changed from a couple years ago ..

[topher40]

You might give Shawn at Shady Meadows a call, he had talked about doing some of this. I don't condone it, although I do understand the argument for it. Personally I think it is a greedy practice, when done intentionally, and isn't done with the betterment of the breed in mind.

[LBH]

I don't have any plans of doing it... just found the subject interesting and wanted some info. and opinions.

[kninebirddog]

Ok FDSB has changed some since a few years back here is the reply I got

The Field Dog Stud Book does recognized multi sire, As AKC all puppies must be DNA also both sires. The fee is $20.00 for each litter plus $2.00 per puppy, since the Field Dog Stud Book will enroll two litters into our records. If the litter is 6 months the fee is $40.00 plus $2.00 per puppy.

So sounds like they are a bit cheaper then AKC with out the 200 dollar administration fee on top of the litter registration but you still have to have all dogs DNA'd which FDSB I think is like 50 or 55 per DNA profile

[Rich Heaton]

Personally I think it is a greedy practice, when done intentionally, and isn't done with the betterment of the breed in mind

Topher,,,, I understand everybody has a right to there opinion and I respect yours,,,,,, not that I have ever done it but in the scenerio that I gave why I might do it,,,,, how is that greedy and not for the betterment of the breed. IMO,,, it would be a way for somebody to use frozen semen or try to use it when other wise the cost vs risk factor to be to high. Personally Im really not a dog breeder so I like to have a litter every 2-3 years to replenish my own stock its a way for me to evalute 2 different stud dogs with out flooding the market of more pointers.

Knines bring up a good point,,,, I think I did call AF and they wouldn't recognize it or something,,,,

LBH,,,, its pretty much that easy in a natural breeding. Keep in mind sperm can live up to 5 to 7 days inside the female waiting for the right doors to open, eggs to drop and whatever else goes on ,,,,, so in theory how ever many sperm you want knocking at the door at that time is up to you. Its a fairly general practice people like to breed everyother day for a 4 to 5 day period,,,, more of that is the male needs time to recharge his count,,,, but if you used different sires you could in theory have a litter of multiple pups out of multiple sires.

[Ron R]

Ok FDSB has changed some since a few years back here is the reply I got

The Field Dog Stud Book does recognized multi sire, As AKC all puppies must be DNA also both sires. The fee is $20.00 for each litter plus $2.00 per puppy, since the Field Dog Stud Book will enroll two litters into our records. If the litter is 6 months the fee is $40.00 plus $2.00 per puppy.

So sounds like they are a bit cheaper then AKC with out the 200 dollar administration fee on top of the litter registration but you still have to have all dogs DNA'd which FDSB I think is like 50 or 55 per DNA profile

So, is it a two sire limit or could someone use three or four sires per litter as long as the DNA is properly done.

[kninebirddog]

I emailed to find out.....

I just can't see why someone would want to
1 pay all the stud fees
DNA fees
extra litter fees with in one litter only to have a female that has a littler of pups where maybe there is pups from both sires or one from one and 8 from the other

and my question here is if you did an AI on a bred bitch and did another AI or natural breeding and she didn't produce said pup from the semen used or she only has one pup that matches up

is it really worth all the added expense as if she had 8 pups and none came from the other sire then what you are out all the DNA costs

I just do not see any real benefit to a multi sire breeding
UNLESS you went through the added costs of flushing the eggs fertilizing them and then putting them back in having better knowledge that she does stand a better chance at producing pups from both sires

[Chukar12]

...plus what would the neighbors think?

[kninebirddog]

Ok here is the reply I got back from FDSB on more then 2 sire question

Arlette, I did just double check with Bernie, at this time we will not do 3 sires. The Field Dog Stud Book might do it in the future....

[mrcreole]

If I'm not mistaken Robbi Gulledge did it a while back with Cutter and Jax. Maybe she can chime in.

[zzweims]

I know somebody that is thinking of doing it. It's with an older proven female...and is possibly her last litter. Doing a multi-sired litter would allow them to have the benefit (on paper) of have the two sires they are interested in have pups out of that gyp. If they went the standard route, breed to one sire and wait for the gyp to cycle again (they probably wouldn't wish to breed back to back), then wait for the next opportunity...it could be some 12 months.

Between AKC and the assorted vet work, the costs run up pretty quick, but could be worth it for the right combo.

I have a friend who did just this. Fantastic older bitch. Stud dog owners lined up for her final breeding in exchange for a pup. She bred to two. The odd thing is, all but one puppy turned out to be sired by just one dog.

I don't have a problem with the practice. Most often it's done in the case of an oops, but if someone has the means and desire to do it intentionally, so what?

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

[Yawallac]

But the pups never seem to get along with one another. My daddy is better than your daddy stuff.

[dan v]

But the pups never seem to get along with one another. My daddy is better than your daddy stuff.

Really defines...My brother by a different father!

[dan v]

..... litter only to have a female that has a littler of pups where maybe there is pups from both sires or one from one and 8 from the other

and my question here is if you did an AI on a bred bitch and did another AI or natural breeding

I think I woould only contemplate this if the breeding were done with equal semen. ie: frozen and frozen, freah chilled and fresh chilled, natural cover and natural cover.

Can't be havin' Top Fuel sperm competing with Special Olympics sperm.

[kninebirddog]

..... litter only to have a female that has a littler of pups where maybe there is pups from both sires or one from one and 8 from the other

and my question here is if you did an AI on a bred bitch and did another AI or natural breeding

I think I woould only contemplate this if the breeding were done with equal semen. ie: frozen and frozen, freah chilled and fresh chilled, natural cover and natural cover.

Can't be havin' Top Fuel sperm competing with Special Olympics sperm.

But you are still dealing with "Who gets there first"

the flushing of eggs and fertilizing then replanting would be the only logical way to do a litter like this

If someone is doing this to see how well a breeding will cross with another you might as well do it right and make sure you get both fertilized eggs in there...Just to much money if I had a super good female I would just make sure I did that extra to keep her in shaoe and have the extras to get that extra litter out of her and do complete litters

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

If I'm not mistaken Robbi Gulledge did it a while back with Cutter and Jax. Maybe she can chime in.

If I remember right, they all turned out to be Cutter pups. I think the bitch was Coefelt's Kessie Joe.

Doug

[elvisclark54]

Think about what you are doing here. If you have a female that you want to build upon it makes sense. In many situations it takes far to long (time-wise) to breed the female to different studs & then evaluate the offspring. Linebreeding has been very popular in both horses & dogs. Once again, if you like what you have & would like to influence the off-spring with an outside dog from time to time this method expedites the results. I could also argue a case that reduceds the downtime (maternal) for that special bitch that is being campaigned. I think it is a genius idea for the serious breeder as long as DNA rules are followed. Who know's I may try this myself. I have seen this done and the results are encouraging.

[birddog1968]

Seen it done in labs to aquire some show dogs and field dogs in the same litter....was pretty much a sire test.