Non-Traditional Hunting Dogs

[Hondo]

I was curious to see how many of the forum members have trained, owned or hunted with non-traditional hunting dogs? How common would you say this is?

My Dad when he was a young man owned a basset hound named Ralph that he says was the best bird dog he ever owned. He would take him quail and duck hunting in Arizona. He never lost a bird. He would always pause and look back at my Dad and wait for my Dad to get into position before he flushed the quail. He was slow and steady when doing water retrieves. My Dad always said that he would get a lot of smirks until the other hunters saw this little basset hound out working their dogs. This was during the late 60's early 70's.

Hondo

[Steve007]

Buddy of mine had a beagle he claimed to be the best pheasant dog in Illinois. Little dog worked, worked, worked, always within gun range and kicked up the bird, baying when she found one. She would chase rabbits,but surprisingly, quit and concentrated on pheasants after one rabbit if he didn't shoot it and yelled at her. He claimed if he shot the rabbit she would then hunt both for the rest of the day.

We always hunted her alone. Probably not too good at backing.. Didn't retrieve, but would hold down a wounded bird until you got there. Mighty fine tracker on a cripple and woo-wooed on the trail. Effective dog and fun to hunt with.

[mcbosco]

Standard Poodles are considered non-traditional these days but I have see many that with the right training can do virtually anything a good field dog can do. The right ones are as good in water as any of the current V dogs.
Problem is they are smart and stubborn. The trainer has to be good. They can move as fast and long as anything.

[cesarike]

I have encountered a few over the years.

Growing up my friends minitature poodle would sight point squirrells. I am not talking a flash point - I mean a tail crackin, staunch point. That spurred me and my brohther to train my sisters miniature schnauzer to hunt squirrells. Once he figured out what we wanted him to do he did pretty well at using his nose to tell us what trees they were in. Although we never actually shot any of them .

I saw a guy at Bong recreation area in Wisconsin that pheasant hunted with 2 Schipperkes. I encountered another guy who took his Dachsund hunting with him and his GSP. He told me he used the dog to flush the bird when the other was pointing.

I have seen more than 1 guy hunt pheasant with a Dalmation. I have also seen several guys that trained there mutts to hunt.

All in all the people that used these non traditional types all sweared by the dog and seemed happy with their dogs performance.

[daniel77]

My last dog was a German Shepherd that I originally got for Schutzhund. He surely didn't have the courage and want when it came to the bite work, but was okay in the other aspects. Since I'd force fetching him anyway, I used him to duck hunt and he got the job done. Not as strong a swimmer as a lab, but good enough.

[ACooper]

My last dog was a German Shepherd that I originally got for Schutzhund. He surely didn't have the courage and want when it came to the bite work, but was okay in the other aspects. Since I'd force fetching him anyway, I used him to duck hunt and he got the job done. Not as strong a swimmer as a lab, but good enough.

Just curious as to how the FF went with a GSD that was also trained for bite work?

[daniel77]

As I had said, this particular dog lacked the cojones to be passable at the bite work, but in Schutzhund, there are three parts to the competition. Protection is what most people would call the bite work, although, like everything else, there's a bit more to it than just biting. Tracking is just what it sounds like, the dog must follow a track, progressively harder, older, and longer finding articles and literally putting his nose into each and every footstep of the track. And Obedience, which involves, among many other things, the dog retrieving a 5 lb dumbell and holding it while negotiating obstacles up to and including climbing a 6 ft. wall while holding the 5 lb dumbell. Not too shabby for a non-retrieving breed, eh?
If you are a fan of dog training, and ever git the chance to watch one of these dogs work, I highly recommend it. The amount of "stuff" that these dogs learn, and the degree to which they can execute that knowledge is breathtaking. My experiences with these dogs is also why the "don't teach a pointing dog to sit" thing seems so silly to me, but each to his own.

According to Evan Graham's SmartFetch, and I've no reason to doubt him, FF was actually conceived by the Schutzhund crowd.
Here's a bit of what I'm talking about. This is just a pic I got off of the net, and this is not MY dog.

[ACooper]

I have always been interested in GSDs and Shutzhund, I am just a fan of working dogs in general. Do you find that it is only the "elite" of the GSDs have the nerves for protection work? Or do most dogs that are well bred have what it takes for basic protection work?

Sorry to hijack.

[daniel77]

IMO, they aren't much different from any other breed that has been hijacked by the "just for pets" crowd. You have GSDs that are "just a dog" and you have those that are highly bred, and those do not come cheap. Dogs still wash out, even those that are royally bred. BTW, the GSD is not the dominant force in protection dogs anymore, as the Belgium Malinois is taking over. They are a bit smaller than a standard GSD, but VERY tenacious. A lot of people don't realize it, but the dog's job is to take you down, and watching a 45-60 lb dog throw a grown 200 lb man on his can is something to behold.

Schutzhund has a similarity with pointing. You know how we really don't know how good a pointing dog is until it is fully broke, because you generally lose a little something during the breaking process, and sometimes you lose too much. Schutzhund is the same way, when the dog gets to the stage where you start "stopping" the bite, or what is called the Hold and Bark. Some dogs will start out with a bite like a lion and lose a lot of their zest after breaking them to Hold and Bark. I will also note here that Schutzhund dogs are "sport" dogs, and the true protection people (police, military, etc.) take exception with a few of the things that Schutzhund dogs do and don't do. For instance, a Schutzhund dog must pass a Courage Test where the guy wearing the suit or sleeve will also have a stick or blank gun. The dog will be "beaten or shot" when he bites. He will already know this from prior training, but must show the courage and selflessness to attack and protect anyway. A dog trained for a cop will be trained to bite the arm carrying the weapon rather than going for a sleeve and taking the beating (for obvious reasons).

I see that you are from OK. My first experience with a protection dog was an MP demonstration at the Barksdale AFB annual airshow. If you get the chance, I would highly recommend both the airshow, and MP dog demonstration. Those dogs are truly awesome. Last time I went (nearly 10 years ago) they were using nothing but Malinois.

Also noteworthy, Schutzhund is not a breed specific sport. You can compete with any breed of dog, although true GSD in Germany must pass before being allowed to breed. I was blown away when I found out that there is actually at least one Black Lab that has attained a Schutzhund level III. I'd love to see him work. Sorry for being longwinded, but I could talk about this all day.lol

Also sorry for hijacking.

[ACooper]

I have been around a few Mals that were being trained for SAR and cadaver work, but all three seemed a little "hot" to be a home/personnel protection dogs I realize though I have not seen enough to judge the breed as a whole but I could see all three of those dogs being serious working dogs for police/military.

I to would like to see the Lab work, also if I am not mistaken there has been one Shutz 1 GSP (actually a DK), and if I am not mistaken there have been a few DDs. I have seen some very basic bite and PP work being done with some american bulldogs which I am a fan of (and previously owned one). I know many people training protection dogs are not a fan of the bull breeds mainly based on nerve/unstable temperament? Do you have any experience with them?

I recently found a kennel bear me that trains and puts on PP seminars but I have not been able to get an email response so I guess I am going to have to just stop in and see if I can watch a little.

[daniel77]

With regard to the Malinois you've seen, I'd say that you've got them pegged. IMO, they are not for the "average" dog owner anymore than a ferrari is a good car for a 16 year old. A partner in my Vet's clinic started out as a vet for the military working on their dogs. She was always impressed with Ozzy's (my GSD)demeanor because all of the Military protection dogs were neurotic according to her. With regard to the various "bull breeds" which I will lump boxers and mastiffs into as well, they aren't preferred for several reasons. First, they have "shallow" jaws, which is obviously not ideal for the bite, and some say also diminishes their tracking ability. Secondly, while I wouldn't necessarily call them unstable, I would say that generally they do not have the mental capacity to absorb all of the training and/or pressure that is required. Feel free to disagree. I'm not bashing those breeds btw, I have a good friend who has had several boxers, all of which were excellent family dogs, and another friend with an American Bulldog, which is also an excellent family dog, though the only dog of that breed that I've been around.

[zzweims]

JRT, Yorkie, and a bull dog, were probably the oddest breeds I've bird hunted over.

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

[mcbosco]

JRT, Yorkie, and a bull dog, were probably the oddest breeds I've bird hunted over.

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

I have oftened wondered how a more modern JRT would do e-collar trained. Mine were meant to keep the paddocks free of ground hog holes so they were nasty dogs generally and a bit uncontrollable with critters around. The ones I see now are such amazing athletes and more sensible. It would be interesting to try.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/ ... 2009/10/tk

LOL someone has already.

[ACooper]

I have had ducks, doves, and quail retrieved by several JRTs and Jagd Terriers. IMO terriers are a different sort than a "traditional" bird dog take, and take a slightly different mentality to train to handle.

Jagds are a BIG step up from JRTs they will handle most furred game without much training

[ACooper]

With regard to the various "bull breeds" which I will lump boxers and mastiffs into as well, they aren't preferred for several reasons. First, they have "shallow" jaws, which is obviously not ideal for the bite, and some say also diminishes their tracking ability. Secondly, while I wouldn't necessarily call them unstable, I would say that generally they do not have the mental capacity to absorb all of the training and/or pressure that is required. Feel free to disagree. I'm not bashing those breeds btw, I have a good friend who has had several boxers, all of which were excellent family dogs, and another friend with an American Bulldog, which is also an excellent family dog, though the only dog of that breed that I've been around.

I cannot disagree with your comments regarding AB's but I do love the breed, I like the fact that they make great family dogs/protectors with little more than obedience training. I am sure a good shepherd would be the same? Thoughts?

[daniel77]

Most dogs who've bonded to a family will have the urge to protect that family, so yes, I think just about any breed of dog in the house offers some protection. My younger sister had a solid black GSD that was not trained in protection, but I have no doubt that anyone who had broken into her apartment when she was in college had made a bad mistake. That being said, a dog trained only for obedience vs one trained for protection is the difference between maybe he will, and I know he will. Kinda like that guy down the road who has a dog that he hunts with twice a year and never spends time training. His results are what most of us would consider a train wreck.

With regard to the Jagtr, JRT, and various dogs along those lines, I've heard that they can make excellent blood tracking dogs. Anyone have experience with one used for that purpose?

[mcbosco]

I have had ducks, doves, and quail retrieved by several JRTs and Jagd Terriers. IMO terriers are a different sort than a "traditional" bird dog take, and take a slightly different mentality to train to handle.

Jagds are a BIG step up from JRTs they will handle most furred game without much training

That is an excellent point about how breeding for trials and competition changes breed characteristics. 25 years ago you could not make that statement.

I have worked with JRT's & Patterdale/Fell, never a Jagd. If you are a good trainer and understand a JRT's prey drive, you can train them for just about anything. They are amazing swimmers and retrieve with very little training, almost none. They have very good noses and a diabolical sense about blood and dealing with wounded animals. Possessed is the perfect word.

Physically, they can pretty much do anything but they are crackers about prey. That said, today's breeders have done a great job of making them into solid family dogs if you have the space. Patterdales are pretty rare and I really don't know if there is a true breed to tell you the truth.

The JRTCA is a great club.

[ACooper]

I have had ducks, doves, and quail retrieved by several JRTs and Jagd Terriers. IMO terriers are a different sort than a "traditional" bird dog take, and take a slightly different mentality to train to handle.

Jagds are a BIG step up from JRTs they will handle most furred game without much training

That is an excellent point about how breeding for trials and competition changes breed characteristics. 25 years ago you could not make that statement.

I have worked with JRT's & Patterdale/Fell, never a Jagd. If you are a good trainer and understand a JRT's prey drive, you can train them for just about anything. They are amazing swimmers and retrieve with very little training, almost none. They have very good noses and a diabolical sense about blood and dealing with wounded animals. Possessed is the perfect word.

Physically, they can pretty much do anything but they are crackers about prey. That said, today's breeders have done a great job of making them into solid family dogs if you have the space. Patterdales are pretty rare and I really don't know if there is a true breed to tell you the truth.

The JRTCA is a great club.

We need Dave C to chime in as he has far more terrier knowledge than I but what I can tell you is that "patterdale" is not a breed but a type of Fell terrier here in the states many breeders have tried to capitalize on a smooth bully looking terrier and attached the name patterdale to it. They are very nice working dogs and genereally the ones I have seen were easier to handle than a jagd or JRT, but work furred game better than a JRT and as well as a jagd and were smaller thus made it to ground in tight spots better.

[ACooper]

With regard to the Jagtr, JRT, and various dogs along those lines, I've heard that they can make excellent blood tracking dogs. Anyone have experience with one used for that purpose?

I have worked a Jagd and a Blue Lacy on blood tracks, I am not great at training for blood tracks but the jagd I worked picked it up fairly quickly, give them fur to grab at the end and they will run a hot track to the end of the earth.

The other thing about the Jagd is they make excellent hog dogs, many people who havent seen it wont believe that a little dog can handle a big hog, I have seen it and killed hogs being bayed by jagds. One draw back is that many times the jagds have far to much grit for their size and no sense of self preservation, which can be to their detriment.

[mcbosco]

"We need Dave C to chime in as he has far more terrier knowledge than I but what I can tell you is that "patterdale" is not a breed but a type of Fell terrier here in the states many breeders have tried to capitalize on a smooth bully looking terrier and attached the name patterdale to it. They are very nice working dogs and genereally the ones I have seen were easier to handle than a jagd or JRT, but work furred game better than a JRT and as well as a jagd and were smaller thus made it to ground in tight spots better"

We are kind of saying the same thing on Patterdales/Fells. The term Fell just means its from the region of England. It is applied broadly to small, tough, ground working terriers. There might be more consistency within a regional circle of breeders but thats about it. I have been in that part of England and everyone has "the best and most pure Fell" and they all look like different.

Intense but very variable in type.

[ACooper]

We are on the same page, you are 100% correct they all look different there can be large differences even with in a litter.

[mcbosco]

Somewhere out there is a breeder that tracks cougars with Jagd's, talk about no sense of self-preservation. :roll:

[Wagonmaster]

My experience with those dogs that have alot of "energy" is that they don't always play well with others. OK to hunt them by themselves, but when other dogs or hunters get in the mix things can turn unpleasant in the blink of an eye. Some owners get this, some owners just don't.

[mcbosco]

I remember a guy at the farm with 3 JRT's 2 females and a male. One day he got home and found the male with 3 legs, true story. Soemtimes those little buggers snap. Modern JRT's are not like that though.

[rkappes]

Came across a website with Jagd hunting photos, here's the link, http://www.gibbsjagdterriers.com/hunt.html