Just testing how to post photos

[grousetales]

Hi all.

Just seeing of I got this photobucket thing figured out. If so you should be seeing a picture of Joker my 6 year old shorthair.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

grousetail,
Looks like you have it firured out, my brother owns one of those GSP's who looks a lot more like a pointer than any German dogs should also.
You boy has lot of white dog in him, bet he moves pretty well.
RGD/Dave

[ezzy333]

grousetail,
Looks like you have it firured out, my brother owns one of those GSP's who looks a lot more like a pointer than any German dogs should also.
You boys has lot of white dog in him, bet he moves pretty well.
RGD/Dave

Dave are you aware that GSP's have been white since their very founding? You have made that same back handed slam of the gsp's with white in them at least twice now and the other time it was let go. Read up on the history of the breed and you may get a better understanding where the white came from and how it was preserved over the years.

Ezzy

[grousetales]

OK , practice makes perfect. Heres another one of one of his offspring from 2009. Alot more colour in this one.

Everytime some one sees a picture of Joker, it starts the GSP pointer debate. It's ok I have got thick skin.

[grousetales]

I don't have any way to get his ped up here right now. But you can see it on another web site. Check out shadowrock shorthairs in Nebraska. That is were I got him from. He is on there web site all so.

Thanks GT

[LBH]

Very nice pictures ... just made a trip over to your website for the first time in a long while. You've got some killer dogs. Glad you figured the photo bucket out so I can enjoy the pictures. Awesome stuff.

[birddogger]

grousetail,
Looks like you have it firured out, my brother owns one of those GSP's who looks a lot more like a pointer than any German dogs should also.
You boys has lot of white dog in him, bet he moves pretty well.
RGD/Dave

Dave are you aware that GSP's have been white since their very founding? You have made that same back handed slam of the gsp's with white in them at least twice now and the other time it was let go. Read up on the history of the breed and you may get a better understanding where the white came from and how it was preserved over the years.

Ezzy

The slam has been made more than twice since I have been here.

Yep, you have the photo thing figured out. Very nice!!

Charlie

[grousemeister]

GT,

Your so modest..

there's a nice pedigree on your own website.. www.gtshorthairs.com

I have hunted with Joker quite a few times and he is a rock on point and our go to dog for hunting cripples. GT's that is, all mine are usually one well placed bb just behind the beak......

[Chukar12]

Ryman/Dave,Breed Warden...

I gotta ask...why do you insist on making comments about others dogs and or their breeds? If you have a point that you can or care to defend for the betterment of bird dogs, shouldn't you start a thread? Most of our breeds have been tinkered with through the years, such is the nature of the man made creations that are the breeds of today. These companion grouse dogs of PA are not a product of immaculate conception. Opposing points of view are the seeds of new ideas and the experiences freely shared on the forum help our sport flourish...well that might be overstated... We hope it survives...but Dave take it easy on the fertilizer. Too much just leaves the garden unpleasant.

[grousetales]

I will be checking for those pellets just behind the beak this coming weekend.

GT

[grousetales]

Here is a pic from a hunt gone by.

GT

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Gentlemen,
I do understand that the German GSP had a strain of white in them, however if you expect me to believe your American bred GSP and the German dog are the same, your pissing into the wind and trying not to get hit. Further I did not mean it to be a back hand, but If you want one here it is, I dare anyone of you gentlemen with these small white GSP dogs to submit your DNA to the German GSP Club for approval. Now put up or shut up. I actually like GSP dogs and have owned both the German and the USA bred dogs. In fact my old German GSP just passed away this past year, she was 18 years old.

RGD/Dave

Rosie our German GSP midst some of her Grouse Tails.


Kurts American bred GSP/Eng Pointer Mix - CoCa - One serious Grouse Dog



CoCa backing one of our Munsters on some wild Pheasants

[dan v]

I'm sure Wagonmaster or BadgerDave will be along shortly to provide the details on DNA being a requirement to run in the various GSPCA and NGSP Championships.

So Dave...if you feel so strongly, put your money where your mouth is. Pony up the $500 and protest the little white GSP that wins one of the GSP AKC Championships.

[Chukar12]

Dave,

Did anyone make a claim about their dogs that has caused you to champion this cause? This is the USA and I for one don't care to have a one world order; rather that be in politics or dogs. It is comical that you have made comments about cowardice and faceless challenges on the internet and yet these challenges in the form of; "I dare you to come hunt...I dare you to have this test done" come from a limited number of people on a site like this and you are leading the league.

What is your "bleep" purpose? If you are here to learn or help others learn then your methods are terribly ineffective. Do you want people to feel bad about their GSP? Have them euthanized, spayed/neutered, pull their registration ... have all owners of dogs with DNA outside their breed send you a letter of explanantion and apology? What are you trying to accomplish by saying, "ole Rex there looks like he has got some Lahsa Apso in em, you will have to remove him from the field immediately."?

I am really interested in what your agenda is, how you would achieve it and in a big picture what would be better?

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Gentlemen,
I have no agenda, I want everyone to believe they own the best dog in the world, I simply point out there are differences in dogs breeds and some people can not handle that, if you fall into that particular realm so be it. Again this goes back to breed standards and who controls them. Our dogs here in the USA are many times different than those of the original breed lines with Pedigrees. You can attack me all you want but the facts are the dogs are different.

Wyndancer,
There are some sanctioned dog breeds here in the USA, now your trying to mix the two together, the men with the real Pedigree dogs have their own clubs here in the USA also.
The Small Musterlander and the Deutsch Langhaar are two of these animals with sanctioned clubs.
RGD/Dave

[Chukar12]

So?

[dan v]

Gentlemen,
I have no agenda, I want everyone to believe they own the best dog in the world, I simply point out there are differences in dogs breeds and some people can not handle that, if you fall into that particular realm so be it. Again this goes back to breed standards and who controls them. Our dogs here in the USA are many times different than those of the original breed lines with Pedigrees. You can attack me all you want but the facts are the dogs are different.
RGD/Dave

No, the vast majority of people here understand the dogs are different. But it's YOU that insinuates behind the woodshed breedings are, and have taken place. Then when called on it you change the subject or obfuscate. You have an agenda, if the dogs aren't how YOU believe they should be, you start throwing derogatory comments and derogatory insinuations.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

WynDancer,
That is pure crap,pointing out that many GSP dogs here in this country have some white dog in them is not untrue, if those dogs could pass the DNA test
to be real GSP dogs, they would have a real German GSP Pedigree. Besides that have you ever owned a GSP of any kind, seems you are way out of your knowledge base here in this discussion.
RGD/Dave

[cody]

There are some sanctioned dog breeds here in the USA,

Who is this sanctioning body?

the men with the real Pedigree dogs have their own clubs here in the USA also.

Where can I find a list of real pedigreed dog clubs?

[Chukar12]

Of course they are different, the only thing constant is change. Do they allow women in these clubs that the men with Real Pedigree dogs are in?

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Gentlemen,
Good Grief this why breed standards are so important, when you start messing with this you open the doors to all kind of
genetic difference in the dogs you are breeding. It is important to understand that today breed standard can be traced thru genetic DNA testing.
Sooner or later the AKC and the FDSB will catch up to this and demand it be shown on Pedigrees, so far they have been tap dancing around it, due to politics and money.

Cody,
Most all dog breeds originated in Europe and each has its club and breed warden who sanctions the actual testing and breeding of dog that meet their breed standard.
All can be traced by DNA today.
There are only two real American dogs, the Chessie and the Boykin.
RGD/Dave

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Grousetails,
Rest assured I ment no slap at your dogs, they are some fine looking stock, thanks for posting the pictures, they are beautiful . Glad you have some thick skin
as to how your thread was hi-jacked into something you never ment it to be.
RGD/Dave

[Chukar12]

Breeds have been developed for purposes indicitive of the region and time. The functionality of gun dogs differs by the specifics of those purposes. Both small Musterlanders and setters were developed in some degree from spaniels, my assumption is by capitalizing on spaniel versatility and supplementing the pointing instinct with selective breeding.

It would be foolish to believe that some of the pointing breeds of the day have not been supplemented by the better run and stronger pointing instinct of competition dogs in another breed, it would be a natural progression in the function of a breed for a given purpose. There is a fine line and the breed clubs will have to choose when and where to enforce it; it is their skin in the game. Some will flourish, others will not.

The GSP is arguably the most popular pointing breed here in the west, and if it keeps people engaged in the sport, then that breed club is doing the right thing.

Dave, enjoy the history and romance of aristocracy and their fine blooded dogs. I love the stories myself. I prefer old literature, Scotch with only ice in it, the idea of fine walnut over synthetic (though I use the latter and look at the former), and the wisdom of old hunters, who make their points clearly, and are comfortable enough in their wisdom to see all points of view.

[Chukar12]

Dave,

Money yes, what is the politics? I really don't agree with all the AKC does or the NRA for that matter. Where my limited educated opinion allows I try to shape these organizations agendas, sometimes it goes my way yet most the time not. However, they are who we have to support a collective agenda. What is the German GSP club doing these days to combat crappy dog laws in the USA?

[cody]

Apparently the dog clubs here just need to give up control to those in Europe, since they are the only ones doing it right.

[Ruffshooter]

Dave: Check history of the Mosegaard Lines, wish Wagon Master would chime in here. I do own two GSP one has many Mosegaard dog in her ped. You will find out more the may enlighten you. Many of those dogs had a lot of white. (I am no expert but did read quite some time back) Although it has been a bone of contention that Pointer has been infused into the GSP it has never been fully disclosed or proven.
Here is some history from a breeders web site. But not the book I was thinking og.

"Hector I whelped in 1872 – the No 1 entry in the original German Studbook - was white and liver. Yes, there have always been white and liver German Shorthairs. Many of the early German breeders would dunk the whites because they didn’t want their Deutsch Kurzhaar to resemble the English Pointer. Much to their frustration they were unable to eliminate the white coats. What they didn’t understand was that white hair is a recessive gene that is carried by animals that aren’t white themselves - like red hair and blue eyes in humans. Recessive genes are nearly impossible to completely breed out.

Feldmann I, an early experimental animal, who looked more like a Basset Hound was even tri-colored. Yes, there are still a few tri-colors born today - although most are quickly killed by ignorant breeders who assume that something they didn’t know about must have happened at breeding. NFC/FC Patrica von Frulord who won both National Field Trial Championships in 1971 was a tri-color. Normally a tri-color will have a small patch or two that is tan in color.

Treff 1010 whelped in 1881 - an important early dog used for his energy and drive - was solid brown. Most German Shorthair fanciers are of the mistaken impression that solid brown is a color when in fact it is genetically a patch - one solid patch that covers the entire dog. Because this patching gene (that allows a dog to be one solid color) is a dominant gene every solid dog (either brown or black) alive today will trace back to Treff 1010. We have dogs in our genepool that we have traced back to Treff 1010, largely through his descendent Axel vom Wasserschling the solid liver who was used so often by the Germans after World War II. Another interesting thing about Treff 1010 is his number. Although he was 79 in the German Stud Dog Books he is known by Treff 1010 because he was dog 1010 in the Austrian Stud Dog Books. The Austrians were actually registering Kurzhaars years before the Germans - maybe they should rightfully be known as Austrian Shorthair.

And then there was a dog named Golo Holzweiler who was whelped in 1902 clearly from an English Pointer cross. His stellar field performance is solidly behind most of the successful German lines developed before World War II. These were the great field dogs that were imported by early American enthusiasts. The names of the German kennels are familiar to breed historians today. These were the Sudwests, Blitzdorfs, Radbachs, Beekes, Wildburgs, and Beckums that are behind all Westwind GSPs of today. Not only did Golo have the characteristic dish face of an English pointer, his coat was short and of a white and brown ticked nature very similar to that of an English Pointer. Interestingly his coat color was rapidly absorbed by the dominant roan ticking gene of the German dogs he was bred to - there were virtually no white descendents of Golo even a generation later.

The white dogs developed by the Germans - thru their attempt to rid themselves of white - are of a different genetic code than the white of the English Pointer. While white is a dominant gene in the English Pointer it is a recessive gene in the German Shorthair - all of the dominant genes were culled. Genetically white hair in the German Shorthair coat is what geneticists call "self colored" or without pigment - genetically the same as the "blue" hair in breeds like the Austrian Healer and Great Dane. Furthermore the white hair on a German Shorthair is longer and much softer than the pigmented hair on the same dog. This fact accounts for the fussy outline of one side of a patch on a real German Shorthair - as the longer white hair in the ticked area overlaps the edge of the patch giving it a fuzzy outline.

In addition the recessive white of a true German Shorthair has a translucence to it - much different than the short, coarse and opaque white hair of an English Pointer. Some of the original Danish dogs imported into this country after WWII had hair on the back of their hind legs long enough to nearly resemble the feathers on and English Setter. If your dog's coat has short coarse opaque white hair that is the same length as its pigmented hair you might have good reason to believe that its coat color didn't come from the recessive white gene developed by the German breeders more than a century ago. In fact it was the softness of the white coat {which didn't dry out as quick} and the corresponding lack of pigment on the pads of the feet which the old Germans felt made the pad less tough that drove them to try and eliminate the white coat in their versatile dog. So contrary to popular lore not all modern white coats are the result of illegal pointer crosses - although some clearly are.

"The Danish however developed a love for the beautiful white dogs they originally received from Germany. All of these dogs descended from Nikita v Dubro Glinosee (whelped in Germany in 1917) who stamped his stellar body type and recessive white gene on all future Danish generations. He was solidly behind Holevgaard’s Wotan II - the Danish taproot who carried Nikita’s traits forward into the Moesgaard, Doktogaarden and Skovmarken dogs. Unlike the Germans the Danish didn’t try to eliminate the white coat - in fact they bred for it. When any breeder breeds recessives genes together he will only produce recessive genes - as the dominant genes were permanently eliminated long ago. This explains the extremely high percentage of white dogs in Denmark in the middle of the last century. "

[dan v]

WynDancer,
That is pure crap,pointing out that many GSP dogs here in this country have some white dog in them is not untrue, if those dogs could pass the DNA test
to be real GSP dogs, they would have a real German GSP Pedigree. Besides that have you ever owned a GSP of any kind, seems you are way out of your knowledge base here in this discussion.
RGD/Dave

Hey smartypants....you really don't know the breed of dogs I have or have not owned....now do you. Put the money on the table...............

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Ruffshooter,
You are absolutely correct and all this can be traced via DNA testing, when the testing is done on most USA GSP dogs, it is different than the true German GSP Pedigreed dogs. It is true that no one knows exactly why, most think it was the infusion of English Pointer blood here in the USA, that make the difference in the test.
RGD/Dave

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Wyndancer,
My heart be still, so you have actually owned a USA GSP. Don't need to take your money, just have the dog registered under the German Pedigree, then I will believe you.
RGD/Dave

[Ruffshooter]

Dave: Actually if you read above the white has always been part of the breed and actually happened before WWII. The germans tried getting rid of the mostly white dogs. That is more established than the actual infusion of Pointer blood in the modern era. At least that is how I understand the history. i.e. the moesgaard lines and others in Denmark. I think Goering or Gobels was the breed warden and ordered all the heavily white dogs destroyed, which is when so many of those dogs were shipped to Denmark for safety and the Danes fell in love with that mostly white dog.

Anyway that is my take. But I am no historian nor even all that good a getting it straight.
Rick

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Ruffshooter,
Your undestanding is very much like mine, this is why there is such a big difference in the German dogs when compared with our USA GSP, all the crap the dog had to go thru, during both wars make them quite different than our USA animals. Most of the dogs smuggled to the Danish, that the Danes fell in love with, remained with the Danish breeders, and were not brought to the USA, they are tracable to the origainal German breed lines, and are quite different than our USA dogs, when tested genetically. Some of these dogs did make it into the USA however. Usually when you see these dogs they are larger and more muscled than the dogs bred here in the USA, and they have pedigrees tracable to the original German lines, they can test these dogs to assure their linage.
RGD/Dave

[Ryman Gun Dog]

gpBlitz,
Paper work yes to a point, without GVP scores and DNA testing however, the Pedigrees differ greatly.
RGD/Dave

[dan v]

Ruffshooter,
they are tracable to the origainal German breed lines, and are quite different than our USA dogs, when tested genetically.
RGD/Dave

So, you can provide an example of this genetic difference? You know, the actual paper trail, or give a link to some reference material?