Pointing labs in NAVHDA?

[jimbo&rooster]

Ok, so I tend to frequent a retriever site and am REALLY tired of these pointing lab guys. I guess I just grew up around people who had retrievers and/or pointers and get real irritated easily.

Anyhow on to my question..... Have ya'll seen many PL in NAVHDA events? how do they compare to the other versitile breeds? Are these guys right? are their labs as good or better than a pointing dog?

I own a lab, and a GSP, as well as having another GSP on the way, I just personally feel each dog has its place. Im not bashing anyones dog or hunting style, i guess I just dont get it and would like to hear what some of ya'll have seen.
Jim

[Dave Quindt]

NAVHDA is open to pointing breeds only. The Labrador Retriever is not classified as a pointing breed by any of the major registries.

As a result, no Lab has ever been entered and tested in a NAVHDA event.

FYI,
Dave

[jimbo&rooster]

well I suppos that answers that then..... oh well. thanks
Jim

[ymepointer]

Well Navhda may exclude them but they could be tested in the VHDF I believe. Go here to find out more

http://www.vhdf.org/

[northern cajun]

You cant run them in Navhda as Mr. Quindt said, remember Navhda have some great retrieving dogs, and the labs point can't compare to the pointers in intensity IMHO.

[jarbo03]

You cant run them in Navhda as Mr. Quindt said, remember Navhda have some great retrieving dogs, and the labs point can't compare to the pointers in intensity IMHO.

I agree, I would not like seeing a lab point anyways,i hunted with a lab and a brit together for 12 years. When following my brit i loved the track and point, when following my lab I also loved the track and the helicopter tail of him telling me "the bird is right there" and him putting it up infront of me. It might be traditionalist, but i want my labs to hunt like a lab, and my pointing dogs to point.

[jimbo&rooster]

You cant run them in Navhda as Mr. Quindt said, remember Navhda have some great retrieving dogs, and the labs point can't compare to the pointers in intensity IMHO.

I agree, I would not like seeing a lab point anyways,i hunted with a lab and a brit together for 12 years. When following my brit i loved the track and point, when following my lab I also loved the track and the helicopter tail of him telling me "the bird is right there" and him putting it up infront of me. It might be traditionalist, but i want my labs to hunt like a lab, and my pointing dogs to point.

My sentiments exactly. I just dont see the point in it (no pun intended) I love my lab for duck and dove hunting, and take her to the game preserve a couple times a year to stretch her legs but I get tired of the holier than thou attitude that I hear from the PL guys. I have a buddy with a pointing lab and it makes me grit my teeth every time i see it lock up....... not my idea of style.

Jim

[scmelik]

I have hunted with alot of pointing labs and trained with them as well. I will not say that a pointing lab points with as much style as a pointer or setter but I have seen them lock up very very hard with a good amount of style. The beauty of a pointing lab is that if birds are holding good and tight they will point (good for me cause I like upland hunting over a pointing dog) but if the birds are really skiddish and want to run like crazy or you are hunting is nasty cover, say a cattail slough they will flush like normal. For the person who can only have one or only wants one dog and waterfowl hunts quite a bit, loves to upland hunt and play the retriever games a pointing lab fits the bill.

For those of you that don't believe that they point I challenge you to find someone in your area that has quality pointing labs and go check them out. You will see that their point is very real and stylish in their own way. I have witnessed on more than one occasion a lab running wide open stop on a dime and snap back locked up on point on a rooster, sure it wasn't stylish as a pointer but it was just as solid and intense.

[mountaindogs]

For those of you that don't believe that they point I challenge you to find someone in your area that has quality pointing labs and go check them out. You will see that their point is very real and stylish in their own way. I have witnessed on more than one occasion a lab running wide open stop on a dime and snap back locked up on point on a rooster, sure it wasn't stylish as a pointer but it was just as solid and intense.

I have not doubt that they can and do point nicely. My bone to pick is when you change the job that you do with a breed then form follows function is going to occur and your going to get labs that are not what lab was originally. BUT that is already happening so why not throw in the towel and forget the breed. Just let them be the "whatever" breed that might be 35lb or 115 lb and might be 18" tall or 28" tall.

Most versatile dog breeds were pointers breed to be better retrievers. Pointing labs are being bred to be retrievers better at pointing. I have a lab. I am sure she could have been trained to point. She has a natural point, and I think she could be pretty stylish if I had trained her thus, but inevitably you start breeding for a trait and you start selecting for and against things unintentionally.

They are not allowed in NAVHDA as yet, and I hope that that remains the case. Not because I don't like labs, but because I do!

[scmelik]

For those of you that don't believe that they point I challenge you to find someone in your area that has quality pointing labs and go check them out. You will see that their point is very real and stylish in their own way. I have witnessed on more than one occasion a lab running wide open stop on a dime and snap back locked up on point on a rooster, sure it wasn't stylish as a pointer but it was just as solid and intense.

I have not doubt that they can and do point nicely. My bone to pick is when you change the job that you do with a breed then form follows function is going to occur and your going to get labs that are not what lab was originally. BUT that is already happening so why not throw in the towel and forget the breed. Just let them be the "whatever" breed that might be 35lb or 115 lb and might be 18" tall or 28" tall.

Most versatile dog breeds were pointers breed to be better retrievers. Pointing labs are being bred to be retrievers better at pointing. I have a lab. I am sure she could have been trained to point. She has a natural point, and I think she could be pretty stylish if I had trained her thus, but inevitably you start breeding for a trait and you start selecting for and against things unintentionally.

They are not allowed in NAVHDA as yet, and I hope that that remains the case. Not because I don't like labs, but because I do!

I see what you are saying but I don't think they are changing the breed at all, I see it more of a situation like what happened with English Setters. You have the big ranging hard running traditional ES that is great in the field trial circuit or hunting quail on horseback but doesn't fair to well for the foot hunter, over time people bred setters and got good foot hunting dogs that we now know as Lewellins.

If you really think about it a dogs natural tendency is to point is a way. Wild dogs stalk their prey, slowly and tediously some times freezing as to not be seen or heard. Man has just taken that tendency and refined it to the point where now we have dogs that will lock up and not move any further. They are just doing what god intended them to do and we made it fit to what we want them to do through training and selective breeding.

I have never seen a NAVDA test nor do I know what the requirments of the test are so I will not make comment on whether or not they should be allowed to participate.

[ezzy333]

I have had a few Labs and they were nice dogs but didn't look like the Labs o today. Since I like pointing dogs, I would have been happy if mine wanted to point. A couple of friends Labs did point and they were nice dogs that looked just like mine. I admit their point was not intense like a pointr but it worked. The pointing labs of today have improved tremendously from yester year and they still are nice dogs.

So, why should I care if someone likes a pointing lab? If I hunted waterfowl I would probably have one, especially if I could only have one dog. I'll stick wih my Brits for now but I hope that any of you that like a lab and want a pointing one can find a good one and enjoy.

Ezzy

[wems2371]

I have a curiosity question. For those that have seen or own PLs, how do they range? If they still range and cover ground like a non-pointing lab, then I don't get it, unless it's just a style thing that someone wants to see. Educate me.

[birddog1968]

I happened to buy a straight field trial breeding, and he happened to point at first contact with a quail at 10 weeks old. He had it as honestly as any pointer Ive owned.

When he was younger , he is 10 now, he would get out in front nicely 200 yards or twice that much if he is running with the pointers. He still got out there pretty darn good last year in the Dakotas and he pointed quite a few sharptails. He has never had any "point" training or whoa training just hunting and learning how to hunt with me the way I wanted him too....he is much looser on Phez and will more readily flush them if told to, he will lock on a pinned phez tho. Its all just been experience hunting birds , quail or birds that hold nicely will be pointed for as long as it takes, Ive seen him point a bird for 5 plus minutes, until I got there.

I think the PL debate is much about nothing, the dogs that are being bred in PL kennels haven't lost any inheirent waterfowl retrieving abilities and they can be developed for a looser stalk / flush on phez if desired....getting one that points is the trick I think.

Having bought a retriever and ended up with a lab that points I could not and still could not have been happier, He's been one of the most natural hunting dogs Ive ever owned. Forgive me as Ive posted the picture before but thought i would again to show a little style....Ive seen a few that were as or more stylish......although style is of secondary importance to most people who end up with a PL.




Waterfowl work

[wems2371]

Thanks for the info BD. I'm an each to their own type of person, but have never seen a PL hunt, to know if point was really purposeful to range. Sounds like it is. My retired 14 yr old lab, never really got out of gun range, to where pointing would be of value. Nice pics and he looks stylish to me.

[cleanslate]

NAVHDA is open to pointing breeds only. The Labrador Retriever is not classified as a pointing breed by any of the major registries.

As a result, no Lab has ever been entered and tested in a NAVHDA event.

FYI,
Dave

I really enjoy these forums as I learn so much. It seems odd that the Lab is not recognized by the NAVHDA, as there is no more versitile breed out there. Just ask any Police Officer who runs a lab on Narcotics, or the families of the 911 victims who were able to get closier thanks to dogs like the lab who were able to find the remains. Any way my question is: Is the act of pointing that you don't like or the fact that the dog doesnt range far enough. The reason I ask is I am interested in getting a GSP. I want one because of the pointing ability as I feel this is better for hutning quail. However the more I read I am finding that it is frowned upon to have your GSP hunt less than, lets say, 100 yards away. I do not want my dog that far ahead of me. It may be fine if you are hunting open plains where you can see forever but in south and west Texas, I think that is way to far. I would really appreciate any input as I am conflicted if a GSP is really for me. Thanks Ken

[mountaindogs]

Well, I will say I love a lab. If my own lab pointed for me it would be fine with me. Probably fun. As to breeding choices, I bet there are as many different opinions as there are stars in the sky, but I am just saying I would miss the personality if it changed much. When you breed a dog to be super independent and big running you often end up with a more high strung dog. Even the pointing breeds can be laid back, but aren't KNOWN as calm. It takes effort to keep both aspects if that is desired. Even my mellowest GSP is wound tighter than my lab. Also I know my lab just can not handle long hours in the heat. But she is no trial dog so I shouldn't compare her. She is just "our good dog." Conversly she is MUCH better in the cold sleeping in the muddy snow even when the expensive insulated house is right beside her... :roll:

I do see your point too though, and can't deny at all that the breed is fantasic!!! I love my lab - she is right here at my feet now, and just finished "vaccuuming" the kitchen for me.