Just curious as to the explanation

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:28 pm

Birddogz,
You really know how to stir these FT boys up, don't care how much you hurt their feeling either, but I got to tell ya the competition at Ames has nothing to due with
actual hunting, although I agree IMO a dog who wins any kind of competition should also find the most birds. Got to remember Birddogz they even award wins to animals who have failed to find a single bird. Just showing records and asking the question in your 1st post is an insult to an FT boy, you just don't understand the social game my friend. You are just an ignorant, unknowing baffoon. You sir are a mere hunter, and in as much have no right to ask these kind of questions of the elite. Birddogz come due a little Grouse hunting with me some time, you ignorant baffoon you. You did not really expect an answer from these FT guys did ya.
RGD/Dave

Dave,
do you have one of your same old recycled pictures to illustrate this? It is clear that you care not whose feelings your hurt, I believe you once characterized being kicked off an open forum as a badge of honor. You have challenged people to hunts and referred to the same act as internet cowardice by others. You mention social games but lack social skills mentioning your alleged exploits in sometimes back handed and sometimes not so back handed ways. SO when you are in either your "big primary residence" you have referred to numerous times, or your "mountain home" you can contemplate the term social games and consider the philosophy that limits the social fit of some. Most in the emotions business will tell you that some people feel they just aren't good enough to fit in. I intend someday to do a study as to how that equates in the skill set needed for dog trainers.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:29 pm

Do you see the truth as negative,just pointing out the difference & don't see anything negative about it.When we go hunting that's the place we all want to go but wouldn't make much of a FT.

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:29 pm

nikegundog wrote:
It’s easy to kill birds went there are 50 in a 40 acre field, but how about 1 covey in 500 acres.

Took about 1 minute to find an insult.

Sounds like were i hunt.Go back try again thats the truth

ISAYWHOANOW · Post by **ISAYWHOANOW** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:30 pm

brad27 wrote:
Birddogz gets crucified because it is a one way street
he started this thread for one reason only.

I like his vigor! I was the same. He needs to blow the dust off his dogs paper work and go show them whats up. Seriously. heck you never no he will probly win if his dogs are as good as he says they are. I have no problem with that.

Ryan.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:33 pm

by nikegundog » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:24 pm

It’s easy to kill birds went there are 50 in a 40 acre field, but how about 1 covey in 500 acres.

You think the poster meant that as an insult? That is how Birddogz characterizes his hunting grounds and chastizes others for living where they dont have immediate and copius quantities of pheasants. That was not meant as an insult, it was a response to the grounds at Ames

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:35 pm

nikegundog wrote:

It’s easy to kill birds went there are 50 in a 40 acre field, but how about 1 covey in 500 acres.

Took about 1 minute to find an insult.

Sounds like were i hunt.Go back try again thats the truth

Yes but if I said its easy to kill tame birds in a pasture, you would call it an insult. Two-way street, that's why I have never made that statement on this forum.

ISAYWHOANOW · Post by **ISAYWHOANOW** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:36 pm

Birddogzz?? How many wild birds you putting in the bag each year anyway?? pictures please??? Hunter and all... i am just curious. I love tail gate pictures. Maybe we can compare notes or stats with pictures..

Ryan.

When we get done I will have to tell you I have been beat by dogs who have seen far less birds at trials...

( every dog has its day.)

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:41 pm

nikegundog wrote:
nikegundog wrote:

It’s easy to kill birds went there are 50 in a 40 acre field, but how about 1 covey in 500 acres.

Took about 1 minute to find an insult.

Sounds like were i hunt.Go back try again thats the truth

Yes but if I said its easy to kill tame birds in a pasture, you would call it an insult. Two-way street, that's why I have never made that statement on this forum.[/quote
You have lost me now what tame birds & what pasture?

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:44 pm

Nike first you have to FIND those tame birds & second we don't kill them,yeah I know that's not hunting but isn't that what we have been trying to tell you???

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:46 pm

Ames is neither a pasture or tame birds
...but I will give you this Nike, sometimes in the throwdown trials making things natural is tough. Come watch one though, even in the throw downs there is great comedic value, in watching people huff and puff after birds that will not flush.
I try not to make blanket statements, but I guarantee you there is no one here that holds a legal hunter and their choice of game and grounds in low esteem...asking for the same in return shouldn't be a stretch

ISAYWHOANOW · Post by **ISAYWHOANOW** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:49 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Nike first you have to FIND those tame birds & second we don't kill them,yeah I know that's not hunting but isn't that what we have been trying to tell you???

It is hunting von.... Its just if we miss????? How broke is the dog? Its just a way higher level of training when it gets down to the win. Most don't understand that... Its all about finds and bird work......

Ryan.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:51 pm

Very true Chukar,haven't FT in any pastures I can remember but some so called tame birds yes.Still have to find them not always easy as it sounds just try it some time Nike then you will get the picture.

ISAYWHOANOW · Post by **ISAYWHOANOW** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:52 pm

I have had the privilege of hunting over some that are at ames thanks....

Ryan.

We do kill wild birds over them.....

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:55 pm

...and Ryan, be fair
You are hunting a pasture, just one that has range cattle and wild horse on it with 3 to 5 thousand foot elevation changes and its is roughly a gazillion acres

ISAYWHOANOW · Post by **ISAYWHOANOW** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:00 pm

Chukar12 wrote:...and Ryan, be fair
You are hunting a pasture, just one that has range cattle and wild horse on it with 3 to 5 thousand foot elevation changes and its is roughly a gazillion acres

You no its not chukar. Its the real deal. But at a trial is when you get to see if you really have the tool? ( You know that) A higher level. Put the old hounds through there paces. Just fun stuff...

Ryan.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:01 pm

This may be off base but I wonder what familiarity has to do with finding quail at Ames versus Tall Timber in the study.
Were the dogs at TT, dogs that were used to the plantation and not to be compared to FT dogs in competition from all over?
I'm afraid that I don't find my dogs always in top form in a new area or the first day after being on a road trip.
Neither am I.
Truthfully, perfection matters less to me each year.
Perhaps we both should be in top gear in a perfect world but "come on",....before I would accept any two examples in a study as comparable I would have to consider all the factors involved.
There may be a tad too much assuming going on or shallow thinking as regards factors that affect any dog's performance on any day.
Side point being that many dogs in a true competition would be faced with the same issues....just curious about the dogs in the TT data.
And while quail research is conducted at both venues, I would guess, how does each physically compare re a birddog.
Seems we may be into Pound Sweets and Granny Smiths.

So rather than take the easy route of analysis by guestimate and spin, some more info might be helpful.
Or, if the only reason to inquire is to push a bias or agenda then just maybe it all matters too little to care and those seeking to stir should try a nice cup of Earl Grey.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:16 pm

I hunted Tall Timbers once..with a staff member there. My northern dogs looked lost for the first 1/2 day...kept going to the thickest cover they could find like they would grouse hunting up north. My host's dog nailed 8 coveys in less then 2 hours, almost all of them out under treed broken cover ...nice 2-300 yd dog with real manners on her birds. There were so many birds that compared to what I'm used to in NY grouse cover, it was like being in a flight pen!!! Great experience...had only hunted Gambels in AZ up to that point, so that was a treat for me.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:20 pm

nike, I have been hear for a couple of years and have never heard a field trialer make a negative comment about hunting dogs. I think k9 had the best post concerning the OP on another thread. I think he is accomplishing exactly what he wants when he starts these threads. There have been times when he has made some points that I agree with but then, as another poster said, he goes way over the top. I prefer to not feed him, although I propably just did.

Charlie

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:22 pm

Charlie,
You make me ashamed of myself...I resign from this thread, besides I m getting no wrok done..

Joe

jarbo03 · Post by **jarbo03** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:26 pm

Birddog3412 wrote:
Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Birddogz,
You really know how to stir these FT boys up, don't care how much you hurt their feeling either, but I got to tell ya the competition at Ames has nothing to due with
actual hunting, although I agree IMO a dog who wins any kind of competition should also find the most birds. Got to remember Birddogz they even award wins to animals who have failed to find a single bird. Just showing records and asking the question in your 1st post is an insult to an FT boy, you just don't understand the social game my friend. You are just an ignorant, unknowing baffoon. You sir are a mere hunter, and in as much have no right to ask these kind of questions of the elite. Birddogz come due a little Grouse hunting with me some time, you ignorant baffoon you. You did not really expect an answer from these FT guys did ya.
RGD/Dave
I am truely envious of you for having all these wild birds to hunt. I do not have the luxury to alot of wild birds (alot of ground but not many birds). The pheasants are gone, the quail are few and far between. I love birddogs, so I had to decide to sell them or play the trial game. I will not be able to tell my kids and grandkids about all the birds like my grandfather told me. You dont know how lucky you are!!

I have never thought much of FT, nothing against the people that do like it. As said before, nothing beats time in the field with your dogs. This is one of the best answers I have read, couldn't imagine not having any birds for the dogs. Have taken it for granted how lucky I am for the wild birds I have to hunt.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:26 pm

Chukar12 wrote:Charlie,
You make me ashamed of myself...I resign from this thread, besides I m getting no wrok done..

Joe

Charlie

Birddog3412 · Post by **Birddog3412** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:44 pm

nikegundog wrote:
It’s easy to kill birds went there are 50 in a 40 acre field, but how about 1 covey in 500 acres.

I do pheasant hunt occasionally but they are far and away my least favorite upland game to hunt, and if I was limited by my resources to only hunting pheasants I guess I would...but I would probably turn victimized, bitter and make a number of rash statements based on my ignorance.

Took about 1 minute to find an insult.

Im sure we can find dozens and dozens of bird hunters who dont trial.......Show me a trialer who doesnt hunt??????

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:54 pm

Birddog3412 wrote:
nikegundog wrote:
It’s easy to kill birds went there are 50 in a 40 acre field, but how about 1 covey in 500 acres.

I do pheasant hunt occasionally but they are far and away my least favorite upland game to hunt, and if I was limited by my resources to only hunting pheasants I guess I would...but I would probably turn victimized, bitter and make a number of rash statements based on my ignorance.

Took about 1 minute to find an insult.
Im sure we can find dozens and dozens of bird hunters who dont trial.......Show me a trialer who doesnt hunt??????

There are more than you think. I know quite a few just in this area.

Ezzy

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:06 pm

This forum is the biggest collection of uneducated dog people there is! Its awesome. You got these 2 guys that love to ruffle feathers so they get all warm and fuzzy. It makes them feel so good about themselves. Probably don't know the difference between come here and sick em. And i'll admit, i've drank the kool-aid and fell into the trap. Too funny.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:07 pm

nikegundog wrote:yet those same people say just as negative things about hunting.

Really? Where?
Anyone who has had any discourse with birddogz and his ilk are hunters. He is the first one to try to diminish the collective hunting experience of anyone who dares to try to speak the truth around his sham.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:19 pm

birddogger wrote: I think k9 had the best post concerning the OP on another thread. I think he is accomplishing exactly what he wants when he starts these threads.

Charlie

K9 is very wise. Must be that Arizona influence (worked on Bill West and Bill Gibbons anyway).

Birddog3412 · Post by **Birddog3412** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:28 pm

EZZY I want to know who the birddog people are who HAVE NEVER HUNTED. I just dont believe it. Are you the one passing out the Kool-aid???? Where is Dixon? I hope it is not close to Chicagoland!!!

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:41 pm

Birddog3412 wrote:EZZY I want to know who the birddog people are who HAVE NEVER HUNTED. I just dont believe it. Are you the one passing out the Kool-aid????

Im sure we can find dozens and dozens of bird hunters who dont trial.......Show me a trialer who doesnt hunt??????

Do you notice the difference in these two quotes and they are both yours.

We can continue this debate ad nausium and it won't get any better till both sides decide to actually discuss it instead of the proverbial arguement of my side is better than your side. And truth be known you will never settle it because there is no right or wrong. We are talking two different areas that birddogs are used for. They have different goals, success is judged on a completely different basis, and about the only thing they have in common is dogs and birds are used in both. One side wants to keep score by how many birds the dog can find and the other wants to keep score by how the dog finds the birds.
There is really nothing to argue about because you are playing different games with different rules. And that does not tell anyone which is better but just that they are different. I've been there and done both and they are both fun but the earth isn't going to quit turning till we decide that one sport is better than the other.

Ezzy

Birddog3412 · Post by **Birddog3412** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:42 pm

I just looked..it is close to Chicagoland. Now I know you have had some of the Kool-aid!!HAHAHA

Birddog3412 · Post by **Birddog3412** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:44 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Birddog3412 wrote:EZZY I want to know who the birddog people are who HAVE NEVER HUNTED. I just dont believe it. Are you the one passing out the Kool-aid????

Im sure we can find dozens and dozens of bird hunters who dont trial.......Show me a trialer who doesnt hunt??????

Do you notice the difference in these two quotes and they are both yours.

We can continue this debate ad nausium and it won't get any better till both sides decide to actually discuss it instead of the proverbial arguement of my side is better than your side. And truth be known you will never settle it because there is no right or wrong. We are talking two different areas that birddogs are used for. They have different goals, success is judged on a completely different basis, and about the only thing they have in common is dogs and birds are used in both. One side wants to keep score by how many birds the dog can find and the other wants to keep score by how the dog finds the birds.
There is really nothing to argue about because you are playing different games with different rules. And that does not tell anyone which is better but just that they are different. I've been there and done both and they are both fun but the earth isn't going to quit turning till we decide that one sport is better than the other.

Ezzy

Touche

Brittguy · Post by **Brittguy** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:38 pm

Been reading some of this and I wonder why so many get sucked into having their chain jerked by someone that will never understand.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:28 pm

Has BD ever even been to a trial before? For real?

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:45 am

Birddog3412 wrote:EZZY I want to know who the birddog people are who HAVE NEVER HUNTED. I just dont believe it. Are you the one passing out the Kool-aid???? Where is Dixon? I hope it is not close to Chicagoland!!!

I for a fact know of a pro, in Ohio, that has never hunted. I just ain't saying here in public.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:49 am

Brittguy wrote:Been reading some of this and I wonder why so many get sucked into having their chain jerked by someone that will never understand.

I have no doubt "he" is one heck of a fisherman either. Look, he baits his hook up with a couple of tasty morsels, casts out....bang....limit every time. Just like he says. Impressive if you think about it. Roland Martin, "SON...good fish!"... ain't got nothing on him.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:21 am

Wyndancer wrote:
Birddog3412 wrote:EZZY I want to know who the birddog people are who HAVE NEVER HUNTED. I just dont believe it. Are you the one passing out the Kool-aid???? Where is Dixon? I hope it is not close to Chicagoland!!!
I for a fact know of a pro, in Ohio, that has never hunted. I just ain't saying here in public.

There are some folks on here who answered "No" to the question: Do you hunt? on their GDF profile.

MATT4126 · Post by **MATT4126** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:24 am

BD mus be diligently working on organizing the wild game recipe section.

Birddog3412 · Post by **Birddog3412** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:45 am

Wyndancer wrote:
Birddog3412 wrote:EZZY I want to know who the birddog people are who HAVE NEVER HUNTED. I just dont believe it. Are you the one passing out the Kool-aid???? Where is Dixon? I hope it is not close to Chicagoland!!!
I for a fact know of a pro, in Ohio, that has never hunted. I just ain't saying here in public.

I would have never guessed that. I would have said there are pros/trialer that dont hunt anymore but never thought I would here of one that has never hunted.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:32 am

I look at pros a little different than I do amateurs. They get paid to WIN trials, not shoot wild birds. Though most pros train on wild birds all the time, I can understand why one would not be an avid hunter. It does not pay the bills.

Birddog3412 · Post by **Birddog3412** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:39 am

Elkhunter wrote:I look at pros a little different than I do amateurs. They get paid to WIN trials, not shoot wild birds. Though most pros train on wild birds all the time, I can understand why one would not be an avid hunter. It does not pay the bills.

I understand that but since field trials were developed by hunters, I assumed most everyone got there START hunting, not trialing. Guess Im wrong.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:54 am

I know out here in UT there are quite a few trialers that are just not physically able to hunt anymore. Chukar hills are not the easiest places to hunt, and pheasants are almost non-existent. Plus I dont want to hunt in marshes when I can hunt wide open chukar hills. We have a 80+ year old guy that attends alot of field trials out here, I know he would love to hunt but not the easiest thing for him. But he can ride a horse and handle his dog in a FT stake.

Not saying that pros did not get started hunting which I assume a lot of them do, but once you start travelling and competing I assume winning trials takes precedence over killing birds. And I can understand that completely, for them its not a hobby anymore.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:04 am

Let me put this out there to a few who know more about Bob Whele thenI do.I never read everything he wrote but do remember reading an article where he stated that he didn't believe we needed to shoot birds for a dog to make a bird dog,especialy in this day & age og disapearing bird populations.Of course this was yrs ago,I'm sure he hunted at one time or one stage of his life but I'm not sure he did the last several yrs of his life.It's been so long ago that I have no idea what article,book,or magazine I read that in but I did read it.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:13 am

Wow how fast we go from being incredulous about non hunting field trialers to explaining why they don't or never have hunted.... you guys are too funny.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:21 am

Coop don't you think this is better then arguing about a subject that has been done over & over & probably will be again? I's nasty outside & Bird season is over have to do something.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:23 am

The Wehle statement is in Snakefoot. He did indeed believe you didn't need to kill birds.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:40 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Let me put this out there to a few who know more about Bob Whele thenI do.I never read everything he wrote but do remember reading an article where he stated that he didn't believe we needed to shoot birds for a dog to make a bird dog,especialy in this day & age og disapearing bird populations.Of course this was yrs ago,I'm sure he hunted at one time or one stage of his life but I'm not sure he did the last several yrs of his life.It's been so long ago that I have no idea what article,book,or magazine I read that in but I did read it.

It doesn't seem fair that a quail or a dove or a duck has to sacrifice its life to satisfy the ego of a shooter, when this urge can be so easily answered at a skeet field or a sporting clay field

Robert G. Wehle, SNAKEFOOT- Chap 8:101

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:50 am

ACooper wrote:Wow how fast we go from being incredulous about non hunting field trialers to explaining why they don't or never have hunted.... you guys are too funny.

Not saying they could not, RIchie Robertson kills birds like crazy over his AA dogs that he trials. I am just saying that winning trials puts precedence over hunting thats all for a pro!! Not too hard to understand! I am sure they would love to get out and kill a weekend hunting birds, but when you got paying clients you better be roading/training etc to WIN!

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:03 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Coop don't you think this is better then arguing about a subject that has been done over & over & probably will be again? I's nasty outside & Bird season is over have to do something.

No Ted I agree 100%, but it really is humorous to me, no matter what the opinion or statement we have someone jump at chance to rationalize it. Not sure why this one struck me funny it just did.

I hunt because I love dogs... I have started getting involved with NAVHDA, and AKC tests /trials because I love dogs.

Whats the big deal? I know most people here are the same. Maybe I am just not in the arguing mood lately!

The other funny part of this post is everyone jumped on BDZ about it, he just copied and pasted it here from another forum. I know I know everyone will say past behavior...

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:20 pm

Good word...if anyone wants to snipe and bicker about folks that don't hunt, why not take it up with the show matrons instead of perhaps a few % of folks who trial and don't hunt....this is running off the rails real quick here. Yeah, lets bemoan the trialers that are probably the reason that a lot of grounds even stay open to dog sports....who spend a ton of money that supports DU, Phez Forever, Quail Unlimited, etc, etc, etc.....that sounds real bright.

Sometimes I think we need to be lacing the morning coffee with Prozac for a lot of people out there.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:30 pm

Coop BDZ turns everything he replys to into this same aregument & it makes no difference where he copied it he did it for one purpose only.
I know you hunted with him this past winter & had a good time but now that you have joined the FT ranks your dogs won't be good enough to hunt with his.

Maybe you can get him to enter his dogs in a few FT & show us all up!!

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:44 pm

Birddog3412 wrote:
I would have never guessed that. I would have said there are pros/trialer that dont hunt anymore but never thought I would here of one that has never hunted.

I'm just glad you didn't call me a liar.